34 replies to this topic

[valkyrie_ice]

ben, on Dec 16 2009, 03:06 AM, said:

Quote

Incorrect.  Has been presented, you simply choose to dismiss it because you disagree, and offered no rational but "you're wrong"

Link please?

Quote

That I had the intelligence to see through the contradictions and lies simply speaks for how blinkered you have chosen to be.

You are indeed a shining example of intelligence.

But blinkered by what exactly? You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that you know my opinion on the bible, Christianity and religion in general. I'm deeply critical of religion. I just happen to think your criticisms are facile and ideologically biased. See?

Quote

If I could see through it, anyone can, provided they are willing to actually READ THEIR FRIGGIN HOLY BOOK as a book, and not with the preconceived notion that it must be okay if it's written in THERE.

Are you including me amongst those you perceive to think this way, or simply wandering off topic? I can't tell. Surely you can't have gotten the impression that I am guilty of such preconceptions, as I've never given you cause, and I know that you would never jump to conclusions in the absence of evidence to support your casually made assertions.

Quote

If 3/4 of Christians KNEW what the Bible actually says instead of relying on others to tell them, there would be a lot fewer Christian hypocrites and a lot more actual Christians.

Correct. Also would have accepted 4/4, 1/4 or a pie chart.

Okay Ben, let me make this absolutely clear. I don't give a damn what your opinion is. I've had this argument with you previously, and refuse to indulge you further.

I have stated repeatedly that the institutions have no relation whatsoever to the individuals within those institutions. Individuals cover the spectrum of beliefs. Organized Hierarchies with established patterns of behavior and set dogmas are not the same thing. All your arguments come down to those of a  religious apologist. You continually argue individuals when I discuss institutions. Nor am I the sole person you have done this too. Anything which does not meet your "criteria" for "acceptable criticism of Religion" you condemn. Go right ahead. I will continue to criticize it as much as I wish. Deal.



So, consider your input to be ignored from here on out.

[Ben Simon]

valkyrie_ice, on Dec 16 2009, 07:01 AM, said:

ben, on Dec 16 2009, 03:06 AM, said:

Quote

Incorrect.  Has been presented, you simply choose to dismiss it because you disagree, and offered no rational but "you're wrong"

Link please?

Quote

That I had the intelligence to see through the contradictions and lies simply speaks for how blinkered you have chosen to be.

You are indeed a shining example of intelligence.

But blinkered by what exactly? You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that you know my opinion on the bible, Christianity and religion in general. I'm deeply critical of religion. I just happen to think your criticisms are facile and ideologically biased. See?

Quote

If I could see through it, anyone can, provided they are willing to actually READ THEIR FRIGGIN HOLY BOOK as a book, and not with the preconceived notion that it must be okay if it's written in THERE.

Are you including me amongst those you perceive to think this way, or simply wandering off topic? I can't tell. Surely you can't have gotten the impression that I am guilty of such preconceptions, as I've never given you cause, and I know that you would never jump to conclusions in the absence of evidence to support your casually made assertions.

Quote

If 3/4 of Christians KNEW what the Bible actually says instead of relying on others to tell them, there would be a lot fewer Christian hypocrites and a lot more actual Christians.

Correct. Also would have accepted 4/4, 1/4 or a pie chart.

Okay Ben, let me make this absolutely clear. I don't give a damn what your opinion is. I've had this argument with you previously, and refuse to indulge you further.

I have stated repeatedly that the institutions have no relation whatsoever to the individuals within those institutions. Individuals cover the spectrum of beliefs. Organized Hierarchies with established patterns of behavior and set dogmas are not the same thing. All your arguments come down to those of a  religious apologist. You continually argue individuals when I discuss institutions. Nor am I the sole person you have done this too. Anything which does not meet your "criteria" for "acceptable criticism of Religion" you condemn. Go right ahead. I will continue to criticize it as much as I wish. Deal.

So, consider your input to be ignored from here on out.

But you are the one who brought individuals into this. Everything I said above was in response to specific comments YOU made, so there's no sense in which I'm ignoring your point about institutions. I'm addressing comments you put specifically to me about individuals.

You said:

Quote

If I could see through it, anyone can, provided they are willing to actually READ THEIR FRIGGIN HOLY BOOK as a book, and not with the preconceived notion that it must be okay if it's written in THERE.

If 3/4 of Christians KNEW what the Bible actually says instead of relying on others to tell them, there would be a lot fewer Christian hypocrites and a lot more actual Christians.

...Remember?

Your claims of victimhood are disingenuous and unconvincing.

Also:

Quote

Link please?

Guess that won't be happening huh? Thought not.

Edited by ben, 16 December 2009 - 02:22 PM.

[brokenportal]

Settle down people. Lighten up. Now, I want you guys to fly to a central location, hug, and then go back home.

If you guys tone down the provocative statements a bit, and talk in absolutes a little less you guys could really learn and teach a lot in discussions like this.

[brokenportal]

valkyrie_ice, on Dec 15 2009, 12:05 AM, said:

Actually BP, when it comes to religion...

There will probably always be at least some people on the fringe. You have critics and opponents for everything. That will be fine. Most people though will be wanting their lives, and not wanting to gamble their lives on a story about an invisible friend in the sky that takes them off to candy land. Let us not forget that many of these people we are talking about are still kids or arent even born yet. Many of them havent even chosen sides yet.

We live in the information age now, and its only getting better. People cant hide info from kids any more. You cant go to your neighboring towns and burn all the libraries with the Korans or the Bibles or the science text books or the web sites or news sources or classes or blogs and chat rooms and forums and lectures any more. You cant stop peoples ability to make an informed decision any more. Just 40 years ago you could do that by just banning the distribution of certain books in certain locations. Now a 15 year old can take a nuclear physics course from a tree house if they want.

KalaBeth said:

and you'll find a pastor just as likely as anyone else to say "yes please" when the doc says it's time for a triple bypass if he wants to stay on this side of side of the dirt.

Indeed. It seems that most religious people are just in it because they forgot how to figure out how to think really critically, and deep down, and in many cases not so deep down, their logic tells them that it is just a gamble. People have an amazing capacity to stick with beleifs they form as children no matter how wrong they may realize they are down the road.

KalaBeth said:

Once you do get into some kind of uploading you'll probably have a great deal of skittishness from both religious and non-religious folk alike.

True, but it probably wont be that bad. It probably wont be that one day people will be standing before a computer with the option to upload their brain in to it and throw their brain away. Whether it does, or doesnt get to that point, it seems it will likely start off with things like options to have a chip embeded on the side of your head that enhances your capacities and things like that. I dont see why many people would say no to things like methods that are proven safe for being able to put a chip on the side of your head and do things like down load whole sets of books in to your awareness.

Ben said:

Between the Malthusian Greenpeacers and the religious right, I expect enormous debate, as well as quite a bit of radical terrorism, against ILE supporters.

I expect enormous debate from them too, in the beginning, which will be more like that "bad press is good press" effect. And I expect it to be seen more and more as the grandstanding that it is as it continues to crumble and wither away.

[valkyrie_ice]

brokenportal, on Dec 16 2009, 07:08 PM, said:

valkyrie_ice, on Dec 15 2009, 12:05 AM, said:

Actually BP, when it comes to religion...

There will probably always be at least some people on the fringe. You have critics and opponents for everything. That will be fine. Most people though will be wanting their lives, and not wanting to gamble their lives on a story about an invisible friend in the sky that takes them off to candy land. Let us not forget that many of these people we are talking about are still kids or arent even born yet. Many of them havent even chosen sides yet.

We live in the information age now, and its only getting better. People cant hide info from kids any more. You cant go to your neighboring towns and burn all the libraries with the Korans or the Bibles or the science text books or the web sites or news sources or classes or blogs and chat rooms and forums and lectures any more. You cant stop peoples ability to make an informed decision any more. Just 40 years ago you could do that by just banning the distribution of certain books in certain locations. Now a 15 year old can take a nuclear physics course from a tree house if they want.

Again, I will reiterate, you are talking individuals.  I am talking Religious Hierarchal Institutions. There is a VAST difference in this case between the individual, and the collective. The Catholic Church is not the same as a Catholic believer.  Recall the "Moral Majority" which was neither moral, nor a Majority, but which spoke as the voice of the Southern Baptist Convention.  Think the GOP, currently catering to the far right fringe while abandoning the far larger group of conservative moderates.  The LEADERSHIP will not accept ILE, not matter how many of the FOLLOWERS do.  

brokenportal, on Dec 16 2009, 07:08 PM, said:

Quote

and you'll find a pastor just as likely as anyone else to say "yes please" when the doc says it's time for a triple bypass if he wants to stay on this side of side of the dirt.

Indeed. It seems that most religious people are just in it because they forgot how to figure out how to think really critically, and deep down, and in many cases not so deep down, their logic tells them that it is just a gamble. People have an amazing capacity to stick with beleifs they form as children no matter how wrong they may realize they are down the road.

True of the majority.  That majority however is not the LEADERSHIP of those organizations, which consists of those who believe enough in their "callings" to have invested their lives into attempting to convert others into "the faith."  Once their believers start seeking ILE in droves, they will dig in, and lash out with everything they have, knowing that destroying ILE is their ONLY HOPE of long term survival.

From Dec 16 2009, 07:08 PM:

Quote

Once you do get into some kind of uploading you'll probably have a great deal of skittishness from both religious and non-religious folk alike.

True, but it probably wont be that bad. It probably wont be that one day people will be standing before a computer with the option to upload their brain in to it and throw their brain away. Whether it does, or doesnt get to that point, it seems it will likely start off with things like options to have a chip embeded on the side of your head that enhances your capacities and things like that. I dont see why many people would say no to things like methods that are proven safe for being able to put a chip on the side of your head and do things like down load whole sets of books in to your awareness.

Probably true of even the most devout of the "true believers."  Death bed conversions are a common trait of humanity after all.  But UNTIL then, they will scream for burning us at the stake.

From Dec 16 2009, 07:08 PM:

Valkyrie Ice said:

Between the Malthusian Greenpeacers and the religious right, I expect enormous debate, as well as quite a bit of radical terrorism, against ILE supporters.

I expect enormous debate from them too, in the beginning, which will be more like that "bad press is good press" effect. And I expect it to be seen more and more as the grandstanding that it is as it continues to crumble and wither away.

I expect it to get a lot bloodier than you seem to think it will get BP.  Abortion Clinic bombings, Anthrax letters, PETA, and the World Trade Center don't encourage me to think the religious or eco extremists are going to go peacefully.


Simply put, coming as I do from an EXTREMELY religious family, and having dealt with this IN PERSON, I am far more pessimistic than you are.