• Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In    
  • Create Account
LongeCity .                       Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans

Photo

Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism


  • Please log in to reply
96 replies to this topic
⌛⇒ LongeCity grant support for self-testing

#1 Wayne

  • Registered User
  • 4 posts
  • -0

Posted 05 November 2009 - 10:13 AM


For some considerable time (more than forty years) I have been trying to find a physical cause for my fatigue and depression.Because it has been difficult to find a physical cause my depression has been treated with a variety of antidepressants from amphetamines in the early 1960's, monoamine oxidase inhibitors, tricyclics, SSUI and even Lithium.
I have never received any benefit from any of these so called antidepressants further leading me to keep on trying to find a physical cause.
I had my amalgam fillings replaced with porcelain ones as I read that mercury could leach out of these amalgam fillings possibly causing fatigue and depression. This did not help the situation and the pills given to me to help my immune system contained iodine that speed up my thyroid causing thyrotoxicosis probably as I had a multi nodular goitre.
I also read that a low testosterone could be responsible for fatigue and depression so I asked my Doctor to request a total serum testosterone.
This was 16 years ago and the total and free testosterone came back low and I was referred to an Endocrinologist who prescribed testosterone injections.
My symptoms did not improve after 4 months of testosterone injections and as a consequence I did not continue with this treatment.
However last year I again ended up in the same Endocrinologists office and this time after a low total and free testosterone together with low/normal LH and FSH a diagnosis of Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism (HH) was made.
This time I selected Androderm patches rather than injectable testosterone. After applying 1x2.5mg testosterone patch at night the next day the background tiredness had disappeared and my cognitive function was much improved.
However I was not able to maintain this improved mood even after my total testosterone had moved into the normal range. Not using the Androderm patches for a period of perhaps a month and then applying 1x2.5mg patch often gave me the same improvement that I had initially obtained but this was short lived usually only lasting a day. If I applied 2x25mg Androderm patches when recommencing TRT I was very tired the next day.

I am wondering if the initial application of the Androderm patch increased my testosterone level enough to improve my symptoms before some of the testosterone was converted to estrogen. I understand that high levels of estrogen can be responsible for HH type symptoms.

What other treatments could be considered for HH ?

#2 Isochroma

  • Registered User
  • 791 posts
  • -2
  • Location:Earth

Posted 22 July 2013 - 05:08 AM

It has been more than a decade of increasing suffering including the following: severe physical fatigue, lack of ability to build any muscle despite daily cycling, low decreasing to no sexdrive, deadly fatigue after orgasm for 2-4 days afterward including daytime sleepiness, increasing crackling and pain in all joints with no family history of arthritis or swelling, loss of bodyweight despite massive intake of carbs and high-quality fish protein (cachexia, aka. wasting disease), weak immune system, poor sleep quality. No morning wood since over fifteen years ago. An increasing feeling of femaleness inside which was at first relaxing but now just pure fatigue and gross.

Five months ago I purchased online the unregulated molecule Clomiphene and it arrived in the manufacturer's original sealed blister-pack of tablets. It's supposed to trick the body into producing more Testosterone by fooling it into thinking Estrogen levels are higher than they are. I took 50mg/day for a week. Chewed the tablets to taste the distinctive flavour of this molecule. At the end of the week: suicidally depressed with zero relief of any symptoms. Therefore I realized that I am primary hypogonadal: balls can't produce any more even if commanded to do so. Flushed the rest.

Finally I decided to get Total Testosterone tested despite my hatred of needles. The test was performed on 2013/07/16:

Total Testosterone: 11.8 nmol/L
'Normal' Range [0-100 years old]: 9.9 - 27.8 nmol/L

From: "Endocrinology Conversion Factors.pdf": Divide nmol/L by 0.0347 to get ng/ml
= 340 ng/dl

TSH = 2

Weight: 150lbs
Age: 35
No alcohol/caffeine
Sleep: 7.5hr/day, wake when done sleeping - no alarm
Vitamin D3: 10,000 IU/day (potentiates testosterone)

From: Testosterone Week: What's a "Normal" Testosterone Level and How to Measure Your T

Measurements in Conventional Units (ng/dl)
Date of Samples: 1996

Age: # Subj.: Total T
25-34: 45: 617
35-44: 22: 668
45-54: 23: 606
55-64: 43: 562
65-74: 47: 524
75-84: 48: 471
85-100: 21: 376

The three emotions of joy, shock and sadness competed for dominance as I computed the ng/dL value. My level of 340 puts me in the 85-100 year old normal. I feel like it too. Should have been tested a decade ago. There is an epidemic of low Testosterone ravaging at least the populations of North America - perhaps the entire World.

Not wanting to waste a second more of suffering I immediated journeyed by bus back to the hospital to obtain my Testosterone prescription. There are no GPs or specialists taking patients in my area and I have no vehicle and limited funds. I spoke with the attending GP and outlined both my symptoms in detail and the computed results.

Predictably, he said that since I was still in the 'normal' range [0-100 years old remember] that I was 'paranoid', it was 'all in my head' and that he would not prescribe anything. I predicted his reply would be this type with 80% confidence before even arriving at the hospital. I politely told him about the low Testosterone epidemic and he suggested that all my online data sources were illegitimate. Further, he informed me that even if I were to obtain a prescription, only regular and painful intramuscular [IM] depot injections were paid for free under my current disability coverage unless I could afford to pay out-of-pocket the completely and impossibly unaffordable $200/month for a Testosterone patch. Those words alone decided the case for self-medication with orals.

I have never met a doctor who has gone through severe/chronic illness. Not having experience themselves they have no clue as to the suffering of their unlucky patients. He was one of this type as well - though I could tell by observing his physique [his age is about mine or at most five to seven years older - a young guy] that he was himself a lesser victim of said low-T epidemic.

I smiled at this creature of the System and told him my plan: to cure myself. Of course he disrecommended such action and suggest I wait a year or more for a hoped-for endocrinologist to appear in my area. I told him that my life would be over before then and then asked him the final question: will you keep my plan in confidence as the medicine is scheduled in my country? Yes was his reply. I walked out of the hospital with only one path left and feeling a magnificent high. Knowing the only path left I now had the final confirmation to walk it.

Having fought off the daily brain fatigue with nootropics such as Piracetam and Oxiracetam since 2008, I had built the Racetam Prices list to find affordable racetam suppliers. After tiring of paying Western reseller prices I had begun to build my own 'company' and learned all the ropes of negotiating directly with Chinese chemical companies. After obtaining over a thousand suppliers for nootropic powders from these negotiations and compiling them into this list I had decided to publish it online [http://users4.jabry....am Prices.htm]. By good fortune many of these companies had also provided full pricelists of other molecules including sex hormones :)

It took only a few days to dig up six excellent quotes for ten grams of 99% pure Dianabol [Methandrostenolone]. I have a 1mg-accurate digital scale for measurement but insufficient funds to buy from resellers so decided to go directly to the sources. As of today I have chosen the supplier: $91 USD for 10g including EMS [fully tracked door-to-door Express Mail] fee with reship if the product does not arrive for any reason. It will take only 7-10 days to transit from China to my country.

Considering my joint dryness/cracking/pain and the fact that estrogens are made via aromatization from Testosterone, I decided to use Dianabol due to its aromitization - I'm deficient in estrogens too. The proposed dose is 10mg each morning during what should be the normal Testosterone spike - both for its naturally correct timing and to minimize any suppression.

As for hepatotoxicity - I will get a monthly liver panel at the hospital. With no alcohol, other liver-stressing drugs (I take zero Aspirin/Tylenol and no caffeine) and no family history of liver disease - the risk is worthwhile. Suicide risk and chronic disease certainty are far higher. With no cure the already-planned painless suicide is looming so hepatic concerns are a fluffy white cloud on the distant horizon.

The dosing is to be daily and perpetual. Perhaps EOD at 15mg. At 10mg/day the ten grams will last for 2.7 years - this potent molecule is highly affordable.

I may need to switch to a steroid which has higher aromitization if joint pains persist. After thorough research I know what is needed to avoid problems and will employ an Aromatase inhibitor if needed.

For any male with suspected symptoms: don't wait another day - get tested now.

Suggestions and feedback appreciated.

Edited by Isochroma-Reborn, 22 July 2013 - 05:31 AM.

  • like x 2

sponsored ad

  • Advert
Click HERE to rent this MEDICINES advertising spot to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

#3 Isochroma

  • Registered User
  • 791 posts
  • -2
  • Location:Earth

Posted 22 July 2013 - 05:13 AM

I will begin steroid supplementation as soon as my ten grams of 99% pure Dianabol arrives next week. Dianabol is an oral steroid which does not require painful injection and also partially aromatizes into Estrogens which are required because a Testosterone deficiency implies an Estrogen deficiency as well - Estrogen is made by conversion of Testosterone into Estradiol by the Aromatase enzyme. Estrogen is needed by males too - especially for joint health. One of the symptoms of Estrogen deficiency is dry, cracking, painful joints without swelling or other symptoms that are particular to arthritis. I have those symptoms and only them with no history of arthritis in my family. They have also worsened in direct correlation with my declining Testosterone level.

The Dianabol will cost only $91 USD including EMS fee - shipped directly from a Chinese chem lab. Even better, they will reship the product if Customs seizes it! Try finding an overpriced Western reseller that will do that. Ten grams is a 2.7-year supply at 10mg/day which is a good dose and should be taken in the morning to co-incide with the natural Testosterone spike. If you can get free or subsidized Testosterone prescribed then do so. If you are younger than 40 or have any symptoms of chronic fatigue then have both your Total Testosterone level and Thyroid hormones - T3 [Triiodothyronine], T4 [Tetraiodothyronine] and TSH [Thyroid-Stimulating Hormone] - tested.

If the lab reports your Total Testosterone results as nmol/L then divide by 0.0347 to get ng/dL.

Correct though likely also suboptimal Free Testosterone levels from a large 1996 USA study of Boston men is reproduced below.

From: Testosterone Week: What’s a “Normal” Testosterone Level and How to Measure Your T

Age: Total Testosterone [ng/dL]

25-34: 617
35-44: 668
45-54: 606
55-64: 562
65-74: 524
75-84: 471
85-100: 376

There is an epidemic of low Testosterone currently sweeping all developed nations and this hormone is absolutely required for Racetams and Racerams to function at their full power. I found that out the hard way too: as my Testosterone level has declined since 2008 both the symptoms of low Testosterone and the declining effectiveness of Piracetam have tracked each other absolutely perfectly. Long ago I switched to Oxiracetam because it has far more powerful energetic, cognitive and perceptual - vision and audition - benefits regardless of Testosterone status. Tastes better too.

The frightening graph below is from the study: "A Population-Level Decline in Serum Testosterone Levels in American Men"

Notice the precipitous generational decline in Testosterone levels in the three groups of Boston men clustered according to the year-range they were born: 1987-1989, 1995-1997, 2002-2004:


http://fitnessproductivity.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/decline-in-testosterone-levels-study1.png


Dotted lines are 95% confidence bands. Adapted from Travison et al.



The future is yours. You can shine or you can decline. Put your hands once again upon the Wheel of God and turn your life's car around - away from a decline into darkness and toward the brilliant, clear and energetic future you deserve. It's your birthright.

Reason for edit: image results in login popup.

Edited by rwac, 25 February 2014 - 01:53 PM.

  • Dangerous, Irresponsible x 1

#4 nowayout

  • Registered User
  • 2,946 posts
  • 432
  • Location:Earth

Posted 22 July 2013 - 08:29 AM

Stay away from dianabol. It is poison.

You should have patience with the testosterone. It is normal to have an initial improvement, then a bit of a relapse, and then a steady but slow improvement over a long time. It can take 6 months to a year for sustained improvement in some areas. For example, mood can take up to 18-30 weeks to improve. See http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21753068

Also check out the graphs on that page, which give some extra information not in the abstract.

Eur J Endocrinol. 2011 Nov;165(5):675-85. doi: 10.1530/EJE-11-0221. Epub 2011 Jul 13.
Onset of effects of testosterone treatment and time span until maximum effects are achieved.

Saad F, Aversa A, Isidori AM, Zafalon L, Zitzmann M, Gooren L.

Source

Scientific Affairs Men's Healthcare, BU General Medicine/Men's Healthcare, Bayer Pharma AG, D-13342 Berlin, Germany. farid.saad@bayer.com


Abstract


OBJECTIVE:

Testosterone has a spectrum of effects on the male organism. This review attempts to determine, from published studies, the time-course of the effects induced by testosterone replacement therapy from their first manifestation until maximum effects are attained.
DESIGN:

Literature data on testosterone replacement.
RESULTS:

Effects on sexual interest appear after 3 weeks plateauing at 6 weeks, with no further increments expected beyond. Changes in erections/ejaculations may require up to 6 months. Effects on quality of life manifest within 3-4 weeks, but maximum benefits take longer. Effects on depressive mood become detectable after 3-6 weeks with a maximum after 18-30 weeks. Effects on erythropoiesis are evident at 3 months, peaking at 9-12 months. Prostate-specific antigen and volume rise, marginally, plateauing at 12 months; further increase should be related to aging rather than therapy. Effects on lipids appear after 4 weeks, maximal after 6-12 months. Insulin sensitivity may improve within few days, but effects on glycemic control become evident only after 3-12 months. Changes in fat mass, lean body mass, and muscle strength occur within 12-16 weeks, stabilize at 6-12 months, but can marginally continue over years. Effects on inflammation occur within 3-12 weeks. Effects on bone are detectable already after 6 months while continuing at least for 3 years.
CONCLUSION:

The time-course of the spectrum of effects of testosterone shows considerable variation, probably related to pharmacodynamics of the testosterone preparation. Genomic and non-genomic effects, androgen receptor polymorphism and intracellular steroid metabolism further contribute to such diversity.


Edited by nowayout, 22 July 2013 - 08:30 AM.


#5 Isochroma

  • Registered User
  • 791 posts
  • -2
  • Location:Earth

Posted 22 July 2013 - 04:17 PM

Tell me why Dianabol is 'poison' and tell me why I should suffer more years as my body is dying.

Dianabol like Testosterone is an androgen receptor agonist. It will activate the same androgen receptors that are severely lacking in activation due to my current Testosterone deficiency.

Your reply is a total waste of my time. You offer no evidence for your dramatic 'poison' statement and seem to have no personal experience with the Hell I currently live in.

Where are all the dead bodies? The mountain of bodybuilder corpses should stack to the Moon by now with the doses they take.

PS. as for further replies from you and others regarding my case - I only want to hear from those with personal experience using non-Testosterone receptor agonists not paper-only theory.

Edited by Isochroma-Reborn, 22 July 2013 - 04:18 PM.

  • like x 1
  • Dangerous, Irresponsible x 1

#6 Isochroma

  • Registered User
  • 791 posts
  • -2
  • Location:Earth

Posted 22 July 2013 - 10:30 PM

It's time for some fear-busting through greater understanding. Regarding the differences betwen Dianabol and Testosterone - here are the molecular diagrams for educational purposes:

Posted Image

Testosterone: All-Good & Natural



Posted Image

Dianabol: Pure Poison



Posted Image

Differences in Red


There are only two modifications required to transform a molecule of Testosterone to a molecule of Dianabol: the addition of a methyl group at the 17α-position (top of the top-right ring) and the conversion of Testosterone's single bond on the bottom-left ring to a double-bond. This can be accomplished by the removal of a Hydrogen atom at either end of the bond. These two differences are highlighted in the difference image. These two changes create two alterations of Testosterone's activity: the 17α-methylation allows it to survive first-pass hepatic metabolism thus making it orally active and the bottom-left double-bond lowers the rate of aromitization by decreasing the molecule's affinity as a substrate for the Aromatase enzyme.

It was developed by John Ziegler because he found that Testosterone had too many estrogenic side effects due to aromitization and insufficient potency due to its rapid metabolism. Its first application was to treat burn victims and those suffering from wasting disease - the elderly: "Dianabol, which is commonly regarded as one of the world's first anabolic steroids, was most commonly administered to burn victims and the elderly." Dianabol was developed as an effective medicine to treat such conditions in low doses.

In high doses (30 mg or more per day), side effects such as gynecomastia, high blood pressure, acne and male pattern baldness may begin to occur. Such high doses are completely unnecessary to treat the conditions for which it was developed. Further, even if such doses are required to treat a condition, Aromatase inhibitors are now available to prevent excessive conversion to Estrogens.

The Fear over liver damage and estrogenic side effects is just that - though legitimate it applies only to those who take abusively high doses for non-medical purposes. At the low and carefully-timed doses used to treat medical conditions Dianabol is safe for continuous and extended use.

Further, for those like the OP poster Wayne who found that Testosterone was or became ineffective - or others who find it too expensive or plain unavailable - this molecule is a good alternative. There are many others too - long hours of research and careful testing are required to find the correct combination of molecules to treat a given individual's hormonal issues.

The flat-out refusal of the medical profession to treat individuals who show both dysfunctional hormone lab test results and classic symptoms of deficiency is a crime against life. For those individuals who are waiting for a cure sometime in the future - it is possible to self-cure but always remember each body is unique and thus treatment must be carefully tailored based on both lab results and symptom remission.

Further reading: Anabolic-Androgenic Steroid Therapy in the Treatment of Chronic Diseases

Edited by Isochroma-Reborn, 22 July 2013 - 10:50 PM.

  • like x 2

#7 nowayout

  • Registered User
  • 2,946 posts
  • 432
  • Location:Earth

Posted 23 July 2013 - 11:26 AM

Diananol is not for HRT, but it's your body to destroy so be my guest. There is a lot of good info online about HRT, and I have personal experience. Rather educate yourself a little first before bitching st people who are trying to be helpful. Then maybe you can pose some more informed questions. Othetwie I don't know why you bother posting here. It's not an HRT forum anyway so really not a good place for it anyway.

Edited by nowayout, 23 July 2013 - 11:31 AM.

  • dislike x 1

#8 nowayout

  • Registered User
  • 2,946 posts
  • 432
  • Location:Earth

Posted 23 July 2013 - 11:35 AM

And by the way, to answer your question long term use pf oral amdrogens like dianabol will destroy ypur liver, as even a little research eould have told you, and as bodybuilders know very well, which is why they use it for short cycles, and even then there is some damage, which they accept as part of the game.

#9 Isochroma

  • Registered User
  • 791 posts
  • -2
  • Location:Earth

Posted 23 July 2013 - 04:13 PM

I have done more than 'a little research' and have read hundreds of forums.

The only problem with your statements is you can't cite a single case of liver damage from 10mg/day Dianabol alone nor do you cite any other evidence for your claims.

As for being a 'replacement' for HRT - I see no reason why not - as already explained the two changes merely allow this androgen to be orally active and reduce its aromitization rate. Other than that it functions as a Testosterone replacement.

The only qualitative difference is the rate of aromitization. It won't convert to Estrogens as fast as natural Testosterone. That could be a problem for those who need more Estrogens.

Edited by Isochroma-Reborn, 23 July 2013 - 04:18 PM.


#10 Isochroma

  • Registered User
  • 791 posts
  • -2
  • Location:Earth

Posted 23 July 2013 - 11:15 PM

"It's not an HRT forum anyway so really not a good place for it anyway."

You offer no advice or help to the OP poster Wayne who is finding that your beloved all-natural Testosterone is not working well for him. He's stuck at what to him must appear to be a dead-end and I suspect many other men are too.

He's asking for help and I am offering up a whole range of alternatives to TRT - my advice applies to those men with Primary Hypogonadism not Secondary - and yet ironically you accuse me of some kind of off-topicism.

Bizarre.

Edited by Isochroma-Reborn, 23 July 2013 - 11:17 PM.


#11 Isochroma

  • Registered User
  • 791 posts
  • -2
  • Location:Earth

Posted 23 July 2013 - 11:31 PM

Two more alternatives for the OP Wayne which I have not yet mentioned are SERMs and SARMs - Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators and Selective Androgen Receptor Modulators.

I mention this because your symtoms may also be due to the rare condition of receptor downregulation rather than downregulation of Testosterone production in your balls' Sertoli cells.

#12 Isochroma

  • Registered User
  • 791 posts
  • -2
  • Location:Earth

Posted 15 August 2013 - 08:06 PM

I'm primary hypogonadal - I tested 50mg Clomiphene for a week six months ago - at the end, suicidal depression of a kind never before encountered and no change to any symptoms.

Once again my stats:

Weight: 151lbs
Height: 6' 2"
Age: 35
Total T: 11.8 nmol/L /0.0347 = 340ng/dl [Tested 2013/07/16]
TSH: 2 [Thyroid is normal]

Drugs: No Alcohol, No Caffeine, Sunifiram 25mgx6/day, Oxiracetam 500mgx6/day
Protein: 213g Wild Pacific Canned Salmon/day [16g fishoil/day, potentiates Testosterone]
Exercise: No Car, long hilly bicycle journeys every few days

Thyroid testing is important because the symptoms of hypothyroid partially overlap the symptoms of hypogonadism. These are: general weakness, easily tired, low core temperature, low extremities temperature, dry skin. My thyroid's been tested about a half-dozen times since age 10 and all tests were normal. They kept testing because my symptoms matched hypothyroid and the underinformed physicians apparently had no clue about hypogonadism.

If you suspect your case similar to mine you must get both Testosterone and Thyroid function tested.

After only eight days in transit by Express Mail, on 2013/08/07 I received 10g of pure Dianabol [Methandrostenolone] powder with 99% purity directly from the Chinese manufacturer. The cost was $121.12 including EMS fee. At 10mg ED the cost is very affordable: this 1000-day supply will last 2.7 years. Costs at 10mg ED are $0.12/day or $3.63/month. Do note however that as I will explain below this dosing is higher than needed - likely double. 10mg EOD will cut these costs in half.

I decided the pure powder route due to cost efficiency and also already owning an excellent 1mg digiscale - the HORIZON Pro-20B. Because I already have to measure out two milligram-level molecules each morning I decided the extra work to measure one more wouldn't be a problem.

On that fateful Thursday as I rode to the post office to collect the parcel I thought about how very soon cycling would become a pleasure again rather than constant pain that never results in gains - even endurance.

The parcel was well packed and it took some time to find the product. The weight and solubility matched Dianabol's properties - insoluble in water.

Carefully measured out 10mg, noted the time and ate it. Not particularly much flavor - certainly not the strong bitter of junk methyltestosterone.

Racetams usually take 40 minutes but I was rather shocked because at the 35-minute mark something rather dramatic began to occur.

My entire life has been a kind lived in deficiency. No matter the amount or quality of food consumption, vitamins, minerals, etc. deficient symptoms plagued me. Deficient: poor food absorption, inability to maintain weight, can't hold muscle even with daily exercise, constant chronic fatigue and bones sticking out everywhere - ribs, knees. Can't sleep without a cushion between my knees due to protruding kneebones covered with insufficient flesh.

Metabolic deficiency has also kept me long company: cold extremeties, tiredness, slow metabolism are all daily features of life. I mean corpse-cold hands and feet all the time.

Back to the time. I'm at some random place - in the washroom - and suddenly I realize something. My hands aren't just warm - they're slightly sweaty. My feet are warm. And inside my core is something rather new - a furnace is burning warmly where before it was just chill.

The excess of heat was so great that over the next hour that sweat made a mess of my mouse :(

Over the next few hours more effects became apparent: minor pains from exertions disappeared. The most stunning thing was the mental effects. Almost more powerful than the physical. I just can't describe it but if I could use lying words I would say that a feeling of what should be normal overcame me in a gradual fashion. This feeling of peace, correctness, happiness and confidence was completely unexpected. Even if the World would end tomorrow and I knew it today nothing could make me unhappy.

The effects persisted very long - longer than the anticipated four hours and into the night making sleep a little difficult.

Now for the sides:

1. The sweating was annoying. Fix: lower dose / EOD dosing.


2. Hair/skin is slightly greasier. Showers every 5 instead of 7 days.


3. The level of tension that 10mg created was fine for everyday activities but the superfine highspeed motor coordination needed to fling the show on the PC wasn't there. A bit of tremble consistently manifests too, but it's the coordination that counts. I've had similars on nootropics and adaptation / dosemod always fix it. Fix: 10mg EOD instead of ED.


4. This is the only really bad side and one that - luckily - has already faded by 80% since last week. A couple days after starting I found myself opening my usual tasty Salmon can for dinner. Something went wrong when I put the first spoonful in my mouth though. The taste was wrong and I had to work hard to eat it. It was like chewing paper fibres that had been poorly flavored. Note that I only encoutered this kind of effect on a few foods and also note that appetite was and is minimally if at all affected. Last night - the last night of dosing as I'm on break today - the same salmon tasted fine and it was easy to eat it. Fix: no fix needed - taste has gradually returned to OK.


5. In an isolated occurance, yesterday morning I dealt with extreme nausea about an hour after waking. It was bad enough that I had to run to the washroom and stand over the sink three times but luckily did not lose breakfast. It has not recurred. I don't know if it was due to the Dianabol because it only happened once and all of Dianabol's other sides manifested consistently.


These are all short-term sides. The long-term picture is very different. There we are dealing with a negative-feedback loop within the body causing a decrease in endogenous Testosterone production. My own production is already so low at 340 nmol/dl - and naturally declining at such a high rate - that it's not exactly a shining star but nevertheless I have spent an enormous amount of time reasearching how to prevent the downregulation of production.

Testosterone is naturally released in the morning (4a - 8a typical) in a spike. It is theorized on various forums that a short-acting androgen taken in a tiny dose at that time will co-incide with the Testosterone release spike and therefore the negative-feedback loop won't see it as much or will be programmed to ignore it. I think that theory has a good chance of being true. If the negative feedback loop had the same sensitivity in the morning as at other times of the day then the morning spike would naturally result in some awful downregulation. Dianabol is a short-acting androgen - according to some sources anyway.

So I decided to use the Dianabol 10mg + Morning Dosing method. Seems to be working so far.

Every day and at the end of the week today I checked both balls and breast area. Remember, a deficiency of Testosterone implies an Estrogen deficiency too since a man makes it from Testosterone. With every joint in my body crackling but no classic arthritis symptoms or family history I guessed that the joint issue is the same as those on bodybuilding forums who report the same symptoms after taking non-aromatizing androgens. Oddly, after a week of Dianabol the cracking has only declined slightly but the pains are 90% gone. As for those two areas - no changes noted. Balls regularly expand/contract based on food and sex in/out so it's naturally hard to tell but I don't expect much if any change. And as for sex drive - I had to test it. Mine is normally very low and it takes weeks to recover. It has certainly been weeks so I tested last night and there was a level of quality that has never been there or has been gone from memory for so many years that I was suprised.

I specifically chose Dianabol because it aromatizes moderately. Ironically, the unnatural form of Estradiol produced by the aromatization of Dianabol is a far more potent estrogen then natural Estradiol. So while less is produced due to its lower rate of aromatization, what is produced has a far stronger estrogenic effect.

Naturally one must be concerned about feminizing effects. However, cases like mine are unique: with a severe combined Testosterone and Estrogen deficiency and using a low dose of Dianabol (10mg ED switching to 10mg EOD), the result is a repletion of both hormones' receptor activities which is precisely what is needed. The ratios may need tweaking and it can be done using various methods.

This is very different from what someone who bodybuilds is going for and where they're starting from. They're starting from relatively normal levels and aiming for supranormalcy. That means having to deal with higher doses, higher costs, side effects and stacking anti-estrogens, aromatase inhibitors, SERMs, SARMs, etc.

Frankly, it's a totally different picture from the deficient individual aiming for normalcy. It is possible for deficient individuals to get to normalcy using the synthetic androgen Dianabol [Methandrostenolone] with minimal to no side effects - remember I have an unusually sensitive and weak body - and very low financial costs. The legal risks with high-density pure powder are also minimal since hiding is easy.

The liver is the other health matter of import. Yet after thousands of hours research I cannot find any kind of hepatic symtoms reported on any forum or study from only Dianabol 10mg ED - never mind my planned 10mg EOD or even every third day. I don't take any alcohol - quite unusual - aspirin, tylenol, caffeine or any other liver-stressing drugs and I also don't take any 'liver support' supplements. I'm not on any prescription drugs or liver-stressing herbs either. With this dosing pattern I just can't see hepatic issues in my future and none exist in my family. I could get enzymes tested at the local hospital but am lazy.

My kind of looseness would be a problem on a bodybuilder's regimen but with the tiny amount and other factors I'm confident that safety is relatively assured but will of course monitor regulary for symptoms.

Today I am off Dianabol and am amazed that the effects continue at about 80%!

Except now the heat is moderated. It is a low fire that keeps me moving efficiently and quickly. Coordination and speed on the PC are back up to 90%.

The sweating is down to decent levels too. It's closing in on perfection.

The next step down the dose trituration curve is 10mg EOD - every other day - half the previous dosing. That new dosing will begin tomorrow.

Today is the first alternating day-off of the new dosing schedule.

My only question for others is which dosing pattern would provide most effects and be least suppressive: 10mg EOD or 5mg ED?

Edited by Isochroma-Reborn, 15 August 2013 - 08:42 PM.


#13 malden

  • Registered User
  • 94 posts
  • 42
  • Location:nederland

Posted 16 August 2013 - 07:37 AM

You are destroying your hpta even father.. you will and up with trt for life.
you are ingoing facts..
Reading your post you have totataly no clue about steroids.

all the best, i hope you will stop it soon and do an ferm pct

#14 Isochroma

  • Registered User
  • 791 posts
  • -2
  • Location:Earth

Posted 16 August 2013 - 02:28 PM

As I already explained, my own minor production is already genetically useless or nearly so and it's also naturally dropping fast - even if I do nothing.

Today is the first day on 5mg ED - half the previous dosing.

#15 robosapiens

  • Registered User
  • 163 posts
  • 17
  • Location:Seattle

Posted 16 August 2013 - 08:28 PM

I have had great success with high dose Tonkat Ali cycles

Especially with nettle root

Edited by robosapiens, 16 August 2013 - 08:30 PM.


#16 Isochroma

  • Registered User
  • 791 posts
  • -2
  • Location:Earth

Posted 16 August 2013 - 08:55 PM

Very nice find! Wiki.

#17 RJ23_1989

  • Registered User
  • 111 posts
  • 35
  • Location:CONUS, LA
  • NO

Posted 17 August 2013 - 02:56 AM

Please don't take dbol for this purpose.

I've taken steroids for over 20 years (not continuously) and would never mess with methandrostenelone anymore given there are so many better options out there.

It is a 17 alpha-alkylated steriod and is engineered to be resistant to metabolic breakdown by the liver. I'm sure you know that and figure 5mg is a low enough dose. Trust me it is way stronger than you think, and has all sorts of nasty effects that go way beyond what your main concern is.

You will raise your cholesterol, retain fluids, raise your blood pressure, negatively impact your mood (eventually), raise estrogen and estradiol levels, and raise your chances of developing liver carcinoma significantly.

Yes your taking a reduced dose, but you'll get there eventually. It'll just take a little time. No one does this stuff more than weeks at a time.

You might not like my post or even disagree but you're getting the opinion of someone who's been around this stuff for 2 decades.



Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2



#18 RJ23_1989

  • Registered User
  • 111 posts
  • 35
  • Location:CONUS, LA
  • NO

Posted 17 August 2013 - 03:05 AM

If you do anything, go over to anabolic minds, professional muscle, the iron den or anywhere the pros are that DO live their lives on steroids are and ask them about your plan.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2



#19 Isochroma

  • Registered User
  • 791 posts
  • -2
  • Location:Earth

Posted 17 August 2013 - 02:53 PM

PatrickM500: Good to know, thanks!

My comparison is with the current deficiency diseases that are manifeting - painfully and disablingly.

The comparison is which is less worse: deficiency+diseases or taking an androgen.

I have already crossposted this plan to TESTOSTERONE NATION - Low Testosterone, Still in Range

#20 Isochroma

  • Registered User
  • 791 posts
  • -2
  • Location:Earth

Posted 17 August 2013 - 04:56 PM

Some checks this morning found new results for the program.

I found out that even though my body type is lean ectomorph and even though I cycle regularly - I was at 35 retaining what appears to be the beginnings of metabolic-syndrome bellyfat. Now, on a body weighing only 151lbs at 6'2" height it's not noticeable but this morning its absence was.

After re-weighing this morning I'm at 138lbs from 151lbs ten days ago [-13lbs]. All the loss appears to be fat though I could not afford to lose it :(

I'm also plagued by poor food absorption which has not abated with the program so will need to increase food quality/quantity. Restoring the androgen level appears to have rekindled that ectomorphic lean-burn metabolism.

Finally, sleep. That which has plagued me since age 13. Should have guessed the cause by the age at which troubles started.

Before starting this psuedo-HRT program it was routine to wake up six times per night and also to drink tons of water with the typical consequences for uninterrupted sleep.

Now, dreams are quieter and sleep is incredibly sound. Literally since the second day of supplementation and without skipping a day, the high-quality sleeping and clearheaded awakening have been in total contrast to over two decades of worsening sleep quality.

Daytime mental fatigue seems to have been permanently abolished as of today.

It's pretty shocking to consider that an entire slew of nasty, worsening symptoms which have been highly resistant to an array of attempted cures and supplements over two decades could simply be abolished in ten days.

Abolished in ten days. It's almost frightening. So today I will work on trying to debug why Testosterone is dropping generationally by such large amounts. Considering the widespread occurrence of this problem at least in First World nations my first guess is a widely-deployed effector.

It seems only Soy is widespread enough in almost all processed foods to cause this problem though many other effectors are surely contributive including the uncountable xenoestrogenic chemicals, birth-control pills, etc.

My guess on Soy is because it's deployed in the entire food industry to such a massive degree. Almost every processed food has one or another form of Soy in it - though often the ingredient labels hide it under such monikers as "TVP" or "Texturized Vegetable Protein".

#21 robosapiens

  • Registered User
  • 163 posts
  • 17
  • Location:Seattle

Posted 18 August 2013 - 01:25 AM

Very nice find! Wiki.

Note that it can be a challenge to find decent tonkat, as it is typically weak and under-dosed. also, it is a rare plant that is vanishing.

However, if you get a good batch, you WILL notice =]

#22 Isochroma

  • Registered User
  • 791 posts
  • -2
  • Location:Earth

Posted 18 August 2013 - 02:16 AM

Thanks again for the info! What has your experience with this herb been?

It's been about ten dose-days since starting the dbol-psuedo-HRT program. I'm finding that the molecule is incredibly potent - such that only 7mg EOD - every other day - is a bit much.

So I'm down to 5mg EOD starting tomorrow.

Regular cycling on hilly roads today is showing gains in strength and large reductions in fatigue. The new muscle must be formatted like a hard drive. Until then it doesn't work well and feels dissociated.

Unfortunately, none of the 'traditional' side effects of dbol are as likely to stop me as one that's very rare but common for me when I take many things - drugs and some foods. Liquid stool. I get it at the drop of a hat - on even 500mg Oxiracetam every three hours there's a softening. My case in this regard is very atypical so if you're considering such a program don't let such a rare interaction discourage experimentation.

Sadly, even taking such tiny doses has done this and thus cut my food absorption. My weight at the start about ten days ago was 151 lbs on a 6' 2" frame. My weight yesterday was 138 lbs [-13 lbs].

Edited by Isochroma-Reborn, 18 August 2013 - 02:17 AM.


#23 Isochroma

  • Registered User
  • 791 posts
  • -2
  • Location:Earth

Posted 19 August 2013 - 01:44 AM

As of today - August 18th - some progress markers.

First, can't get milligram digiscale to read less than 7mg accurately so that was this morning's 8:00a dose of dbol. The dosing is EOD - Every Other Day - which works excellently and is quite affordable.

Now for the last few days' observations and this morning's checks.

Since starting the dbol microdose-microcycle program ten days ago the few side effects have vanished and enormous positive effects have manifested. Suprisingly, even on day ten still more positives manifest - both mental and physical. The level of mental energy, clarity and cheerfulness is today greater than any day in the last three months.

Remember, I'm 35 years, 138 lbs, 6'2", zero alcohol, caffeine, aspirin, tylenol, NSAIDs.

The only other drugs besides dbol: 25mgx6/day Sunifiram [Nootropic], 500mgx6/day Oxiracetam [Nootropic].

As for supplements - totals below per day:

Ca: 1000mg
Mg: 1000mg
Vitamin C: 8g (8000mg)
Zn: 50mg
CrPicolinate: 500mcg
Iodine [KI]: 1-5mg
Fish Oil (from eaten fish): 16g/day

New effects have manifested and further convinced me that my previous state was a nightmare of deficient Testosterone: my voice has over the last few days deepened and over that same span I found that I can't get away with shaving EOD any more - the hair growth rate seems to have increased. These are changes which did not complete at puberty or anytime thereafter until now. The shock of incompleteness completed.

The skeptic would expect that by day ten evidence of testicular output decline would manifest.

Before I provide the details I'll paste below a succinct copy of the reasoning behind the Morning Timed Androgen Microdose Program first: its precursor - the bodybuilder's D-bol Bridge:

--------------------------------------------------------------




D-bol Bridge Explained by Fonz


I've been reading some of the posts regarding this bridge and some of them are truly from left-field. First of, this is a BRIDGE. OK? a B-R-I-D-G-E.

Your LH function and test levels are supposed to RECOVER.

Ok, now having said that. Here's the pharmo-kinetics behind Methandrostenelone, brand name Dianabol. 10mg taken at once will increase your average testosterone level by 5 times and decrease your endogeneous cortisone by 50-70%.

The reason why dianabol is a good choice for a bridge is that its VERY anti-catabolic. It also dopaminergic. Giving you the benefits of increased CNS strength modulation by its androgenic mode of action. Androgens, in case you don't know, increase neuro-muscular function, thus STRENGTH.

OK. Now, lets delve into the metabolic chemistry behind dianabol's choice as a bridging agent.

When are testosterone levels highest?


Answer: In the AM, thats when.

Your body releases a tesosterone spike in the morning. This is when tesosterone levels are highest.

When are Insulin levels lowest?

Answer: In the AM thats when.

Low insulin levels=increased protein used as fuel. (Also fat, but protein is also being converted
to glucose via glucogenesis) OK, here is where dball's short half-life works for us (Its 3.2-4.5 hrs btw)

Lets take Subject X.

He's in bridging mode. He has just woken up. The body is about to release tesosterone, thus creating a spike. His insulin levels are low. His LH and test levels are very low.

He pops 10mgs of dianabol.

Here is where things get interesting.

The 10mgs of dianabol will cause a testosterone spike WHICH COINCIDES WITH the testosterone released ENDOGENEOUSLY in the AM by the testes.

The body will be partially fooled. It will not entirely detect the increased levels of testosterone (above the normal test sipke), thus LH function WILL REMAIN only partially(Very little actually) suppressed.

In other words, he is "piggy-backing" an extra dose of testosterone on top of the endogeneously reduced one, thus creating an "inflated" test spike. Henceforth, LH levels WILL BE ALLOWED TO SLOWLY RECOVER over time. Also, dballs anti-catabolic effect will help curb protein-loss in the morning from low insulogenic levels.

HOWEVER, and here is where almost all of you go wrong. You CANNOT GO PAST 10mg of dianabol in the AM for this bridge to work!!!! Why? Because of the blood levels of dianabol you would generate. 10mg in the AM will be broken down to 5mg in about 4 hrs (Probably less)

5mg of dianabol, is not enough to cause another rise in testosterone levels after the precceeding one. Thus, LH function is allowed to up-regulate. Anything more (Say 20mg) will cause a SEDCONDARY testosterone spike which WILL inhibit LH function further, thus not allowing LH function to recover. Oh yeah...100mgs? ROTLMFAO!! Fat chance.

The difference between 20mg and 10mg means the difference between allowing LH to recover slowly and not allowing it to. So, here's the scenario summed up:

Beginning: LOW LH and test.

Adding the 10mg dball.

LH is allowed to SLOWLY RECOVER over time as testosterone levels are kept at a level which will not cause muscle-loss. Also, dball's anti-catabolic effects will reduce protein degradation.(Via cortisone reduction)

This is what i call a double positive. You have managed to INCREASE anabolism (test levels) and DECREASE catabolism (cortisone), during a bridge to boot!! The bridge should last 8 weeks, NO LESS.


I also have to say, that it WILL NOT restore complete LH function. It'll get you 80-90% of the way there but the only way you're going to get your full LH function back is if you go OFF completely. Anavar WILL NOT restore LH completely either btw. (In case anybody is wondering.)


The difference is that with anavar you can take it throughout the day and with dball it HAS TO BE
once in the AM.

Hope that clears the air.

Fonz


--------------------------------------------------------------

At less than half of Fonz's 10mg ED, my 7mg EOD [3.5mg ED eqiv.] is doing far better than maintaining 80-90% of my LH function. My LH has every other entire day of no supplementation to recalibrate.

From the last few days careful examination of ball size, energy levels and qualitative effects including this morning's wood - normally only once a month and androgenic effects which are likely the result of endogenous Testosterone molecules being spared by dbol's presence and so having more of their characteristic androgenic effect.

I just checked now and there is no balls size change or other changes either. Not expecting any either.

By combining an EOD [Every Other Day] morning microdose of 7mg dbol with high doses of potentiating fish oil this program has produced by today a continuous lift that has not shown the characteristic decline of testicular downregulation.

In other words: I'm additive! This should be impossible because my internal production should have declined as much as I have supplemented - which has been a goodly amount relative to my sensitivity. I know because of obvious muscle development these last ten days along with all the other excellent effects including decreases in fatigue during routinely benchmarked operations.

Flying so precisely and carefully under the radar - I spent over a thousand hours in Net research to guarantee flight safety and stability - my estimate is that as of today I am obtaining at minimum 50%-75% additivity of my endogenous Testosterone production with the supplemented Dbol.

This means that rather than swapping my own Testosterone production for Dbol, by carefully sneaking Dbol in the backdoor on a microdose EOD schedule I can have my cakes and eat them two :) Two - yes two - androgen suppliers working together to provide the full spectrum of androgenic effects.

It's a delicate dance that might not last but so far my careful observations are proving certain other posters on external forums correct. Do remember the below posts are from bodybuilding sites and so are working with higher doses than myself - 10mg ED vs. 7mg EOD. Nonetheless:

mac83: I beg to differ. I've been running this bridge for a lil while now. and this was b4 I even read this article. post cycle, 2 naps in the morning, sometimes one post workout. little to no side. I take milk thistle everyday, I very rarely if ever take in any alcohol. my liver is fine. alot of you guys are way too hopped up on bullshit you read about the toxicity of orals. I've had great results, virtually no sides. my libido is rocking, killer pumps, no gyno problems and all that off of only 10mg a day. I may not have all the degrees and shit like you guys do, buti know from experience that it works for me. if I go higher than 10mg in the morning I don't see as good effects and notice more sides.


C.K.: Omg 10 mgs of Dianabol - methandrostenolone - causing bloat? I think not! And I know when I'm on 250 test my nuts shrivel and I shoot blanks but on 10 mg Dianabol - Methandrostenolone - I have eggs and cum loads so the supression of Dianabol - methandrostenolone - is barely noticable ... You have already made up your mind although you haven't tried the method so in this case to each their own but by most of your post I don't even know why you're cycling again since it took you 3 pcts to recover from last cycle shouldn't you be worrying more about your recovery not ours?


Will keep progress updated via reports to this thread.

Over and out.

Edited by Isochroma-Reborn, 19 August 2013 - 02:22 AM.


#24 Galaxyshock

  • Registered User
  • 882 posts
  • 128
  • Location:Finland

Posted 19 August 2013 - 08:28 AM

I have had great success with high dose Tonkat Ali cycles

Especially with nettle root


Add D-Aspartic acid and Mucuna, and you might have something.

https://encrypted-tb...OoIo2filWD6JoiI

http://journals.camb...339X_fig2p.jpeg


Perhaps even forskolin:

https://encrypted-tb...NWdBLafDNLK_N9w

and Ashwgandha:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19501822

Edited by Galaxyshock, 19 August 2013 - 08:39 AM.


#25 Isochroma

  • Registered User
  • 791 posts
  • -2
  • Location:Earth

Posted 19 August 2013 - 02:41 PM

Wow, nice finds!

There's so many ways to potentiate and naturally increase Testosterone.

#26 robosapiens

  • Registered User
  • 163 posts
  • 17
  • Location:Seattle

Posted 19 August 2013 - 05:09 PM

Wow, nice finds!

There's so many ways to potentate and naturally increase Testosterone.


And keep your male parts active and healthy vs atrophied

Just Tongkat all by itself (if one takes a decent amount) is quite noticeable i.e spontaneous erections, greater semen volume, larger parts even at rest, increased drive and stamina, muscular hypertrophy, oily skin, balding...

a stack including the aforementioned would be quite impressive, I imagine.

I personally think doing Dbol is foolhardy, and unnecessary.

Edited by robosapiens, 19 August 2013 - 05:13 PM.


#27 Isochroma

  • Registered User
  • 791 posts
  • -2
  • Location:Earth

Posted 19 August 2013 - 05:33 PM

I must report as of this morning - it's dose-skip day today - that I'm getting morning wood when it was very rare before starting the program. Size down there is maintaining nicely too.

I've tried Clomiphene about eight months ago for a week at a good dose and it did nothing - so I'm primary hypogonadal. That unfortunately means that herbs and indirect methods which work by sending signals to the balls to increase production won't likely help.

There seems to be some strange phenomenon which has been commented on in other forums by which a single microdose of Dbol ED/EOD upon awakening seems to re-prime the system.

Due to its slightly different molecular structure Dbol has far less activation effect upon penile TRs than Testosterone and thus does not produce erections - certainly not in me and definitely not at 7mg EOD.

Even if Dbol had the same receptor activation pattern as natural Testosterone, its short 3-4 hour half-life means that as of this morning it's been gone 24 hours. Therefore the bringer of those morning woods is natural Testosterone and since starting the program they have increased to nearly every morning.
  • like x 1

#28 Isochroma

  • Registered User
  • 791 posts
  • -2
  • Location:Earth

Posted 31 August 2013 - 10:07 PM

Background: I am using 99% pure dbol powder purchased directly from a Chinese chemical company at a low 7mg dose once in the early AM - around 8:30am - 9:30am as HRT since my Testosterone is half normal (I'm 35 and was tested three weeks ago at 340 ng/dl when my level should be around 650 ng/dl). At the three-week mark - dosing started August 7th, 2013 - Dbol alone has successfully reversed all the nasty physical and mental effects of low Testosterone. Symptoms which have been building for close to two decades. For a detailed explanation see the thread here:

TESTOSTERONE NATION: Low Testosterone, Still in Range

First, the reasons I tried this route of administration this morning:

1. Speed. In order to minimize the suppression of my remaining natural Testosterone production, I take a single small dose of 7mg measured on an accurate 1mg digital scale each morning. However, I have to hurry each morning to get the dose in so it overlaps with my natural Testosterone spike to minimize suppression. So far this is working well but I choose not to eat any food for the first two hours to speed absorption. This means low blood sugar and symptoms since my body is so lean that I have no reserves. The idea behind insufflation is that direct absorption through the nasal and sinus mucosa should be far faster than slow digestion. Normally the strong physical effects from ingestion manifest in one hour - body warmth, sweaty palms and strong physical energy.

2. Hepatotoxicity Reduction. Ingestion results in a bit of liver damage as the molecule is absorbed into the portal circulation and undergoes first-pass hepatic metabolism before it can enter the bloodstream. Direct absorption into the bloodstream bypasses first-pass metabolism - at least with the tiny 7mg dose split in half between nostrils, the amount is so tiny that the mucosa absorb at least 80% with the rest dripping down into the stomach. This decreases liver damage significantly.

3. Needle not required. I hate needles and will never use them. Injection is physically damaging to the body, painful, and brings the daily risk of infection, sterile abscess and the illegal possession of a hypodermic needle. All things I won't tolerate. Insufflation delivers molecules with a speed and absorption efficiency which can only be beat by two other methods: injection and inhalation - vaporization or smoking.

4. Different effects. The possibility that negative effects might be minimized and positive effects maximized due to different absorption and conversion. Intestinal cells have a high expression of the Aromatase enzyme and so ingestion results in a very different physical and psychoactive effects than direct methods such as injection.

This morning at about 9:36am I scaled out the usual three microscoops [eBay sale & pic for scoop size reference] until my scale - the Horizon PRO-20B - read 7mg into the tiny polymer shot-glass I've been using these past three weeks.

This time was different because I had my trusty plastic straw dug up from the basement storage.

With a bit of trepidation and worry about pain, I carefully insufflated half the dbol up one nostril and half up the other at exactly 9:41am.

The feeling of this pure powder up the nose is nothing at all. Absolutely nothing. Like breathing air. There is no feeling of pain, no burning at all. I could not tell that I had taken anything. After five minutes a very slight just barely noticeable taste of the usual Aspirin-like flavor but smelled inside the nose instead of tasted on the tongue. Nothing annoying or distracting at all.

At 9:51am - only ten minutes later - I noted a distinct and strong psychoactive effect: a fast mental clarity and sharpness which I had normally observed about an hour after ingestion these last three weeks of oral dosing. I must emphasize: FAST, very very quickly and very very clearly.

Strangely, the very mild positive almost euphoric feeling that occurs about an hour after oral ingestion did not occur. Instead, after another twenty minutes of what I presume was further absorption I felt the strangest mental effect of all the psychoactive substances I've ever tried.

My historical experiences with psychoactives include DXM, LSD, MXE, Cannabis, 5F-AKB48, 5F-PB22, Nicotine, Piracetam, Pramiracetam, Oxiracetam, Aniracetam, Noopept, Morphine (once in hospital), Codeine (six oral doses in hospital after appendectomy surgery a few years ago), an unknown Benzoziazepine (a single dose in hospital pre-surgery), Sunifiram and Nefiracetam.

This effect was mild but totally unique. It's so unique that it must be experienced. It came with a tiny bit of dizziness and a strong buzzy feeling in my legs.

Between this time and the time when main effects started I noticed another distinct and exaggerated psychoactive effect - one far stronger but similar to the effects I have noticed after ingestion: a strong and total mental 'silence' of thought combined with a strong visual sharpness and clarity.

The main body effects still took one hour to manifest - the warm sweaty palms, internal furnace-like heat and physical energy along with the usual very, very mild positive mental effects.

The most amazing thing is that after one hour these main effects manifested - and increased in intensity - until peaking at the two-hour mark with at least 50% more power than normal. Insufflation increases absorption by 50% compared to oral dosing. The usual 7mg - three microscoops - is now an overdose! Since my scale won't read less than that I will be taking only one unmeasured microscoop instead of the usual three - about 2.5mg - 3.0mg (!) each morning for the next week to get a more complete picture of the effects.

That's the plan for the next week of insufflation testing because I now see that this method - used only for the tiny morning dose as HRT - is far, far superior to ingestion by preventing both first-pass metabolic losses and a good portion of liver damage caused by portal absorption and first-pass metabolism - killing two birds with one stone :)

Here's the differences from oral ingestion in short form:

1. Fast strong psychoactive effects that begin in ten minutes but are uniquely different from oral dosing.


2. Less hepatotoxicty due to bypass of first-pass metabolism.


3. Far higher potency with about 50% increase in activity for the same dose in mg.


4. Food can be ingested without slowing absorption so I won't need to deal with two hours of morning fasting and low blood sugar.


5. No GI upset. For those who get the runs from dbol, non-oral routes will prevent such problems.


I recommend anyone with pure powder to try insufflation at least once. It's painless and safe. However, if the goal is to maintain a steady blood concentration or larger amounts are used (higher insufflated doses will result in more spillover into the stomach due to sinus drip, negating the benefits of insufflation) then this method is not recommended.

My routine is a single morning microdose to produce a spike which overlaps the morning Testosterone release so it's perfect.

Edited by Isochroma-Reborn, 31 August 2013 - 10:32 PM.


#29 Isochroma

  • Registered User
  • 791 posts
  • -2
  • Location:Earth

Posted 31 August 2013 - 10:18 PM

It is now 2:50pm - this writeup is posted later so the posttime doesn't correspond.

The full effects - nay - much stronger main body effects - are in full manifestation. Having insufflated only 7mg - 3.5mg up each nostril - and having not detected any significant Aspirin flavored drip down my throat - I am very sure that at least 80% - perhaps much higher - of the dbol was absorbed intranasally.

The ten-minute speed of FAST effects is further testament to this hypothesis.

Even further evidence is that I am now enjoying a quality of effects that far surpasses the last three weeks of oral dosing. Notably, the body load is gone and there is a very clean up energy. The likely dysregulation of blood sugar caused by high concentrations of dbol entering the liver through the portal circulation - the liver is responsible for regulation of glucose-glycogen interconversion - is simply not present today, unlike all the other days back to the first dosing day of August 7th. :)

The decision is now made: there will be no further oral ingestion of dbol. This molecule is very biocompatible via the intranasal route. So clear, clean and without problems that its naturalism is transparent. Injection must be similar but I prefer to skip the pain, risks and legal problems.

In the next few days I'm also expecting a halt to the continuous diarrhea which started on August 8th. My gastrointestinal tract is very sensitive to a variety of foods and drugs - even 1g Oxiracetam every four hours or a few too many tablespoons of sugar is enough to produce continuous runs.

sponsored ad

  • Advert
Click HERE to rent this MEDICINES advertising spot to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

#30 Isochroma

  • Registered User
  • 791 posts
  • -2
  • Location:Earth

Posted 31 August 2013 - 11:09 PM

Looks like Testosterone works via intranasal too - the study doesn't mention the dose which is important because high doses result in spillover down the throat into the stomach - but comes to a similar conclusion: 75% absorption.

Dbol is much more potent than Testosterone so the dose is a small fraction of that required for Testosterone and thus spillover is minimized.

The study also confirms the very different and slightly strange psychoactive effects: "All brain regions except the frontal cortex had higher levels of testosterone after i.n. administration than after i.v. administration, although the differences among brain regions varied much more for the i.n. route".

These differences in the pattern of internal distribution within the brain mean a different psychoactive effect profile via the intranasal route compared to oral or intravenous.

Most important is the last paragraph: the intranasal Testosterone did not simply travel to the brain but perfused the entire body similar to intravenous. So not only will this route clear up the brain symptoms of low Testosterone - and I can now confirm that dbol also penetrates said region quickly via intranasal - but it will also provide all the whole-body benefits as well.

Delivery of testosterone to the brain by intranasal administration: comparison to intravenous testosterone

Abstract


Intranasal (i.n.) administration has emerged as a strategy to deliver therapeutics to the brain. Here, we compared i.n. and intravenous (i.v.) administration for testosterone. About 75% of the i.n. administered testosterone entered the blood. However, whole brain levels of testosterone were about twice as high after i.n. administration as after i.v. administration. About two-thirds of the testosterone entering the brain after i.n. administration did so by direct entry by nasal routes and the remainder indirectly by first entering the blood and then crossing the blood-brain barrier. All brain regions except the frontal cortex had higher levels of testosterone after i.n. administration than after i.v. administration, although the differences among brain regions varied much more for the i.n. route. The olfactory bulb, hypothalamus, striatum, and hippocampus had the highest levels after i.n. administration. The brain uptake pattern suggested a variety of distribution routes likely involving the cerebrospinal fluid, diffusion through brain tissue, and transport through nerve projections.


Regional distribution patterns were similar after either i.n. or i.v. administration, suggesting that the dominant factor determining distribution/retention was the same for either route of administration. We conclude that the i.n. administration route delivers testosterone systemically and can target the brain, especially the olfactory bulb, hypothalamus, striatum, and hippocampus.


  • like x 1




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users