Jump to content



Photo
* * * * * 6 votes

Piracetam non-responders


  • Please log in to reply
432 replies to this topic

#1 acantelopepope

  • Registered User
  • 221 posts
  • 21
  • Location:Thailand

Posted 10 November 2009 - 02:37 AM


I want you to do a test for me.

Get a flashlight.
Stand next to a mirror and turn all other lights off.
Shine the flashlight towards your eyes from the side, not directly.
Your pupil should become small.

Over the next 90 seconds, does your pupil remain small, without any variation? Or does it fluctuate, unable to stay small?

This is very important-- I think that I may have discovered what is causing piracetam to work so inconsistently.

Please post your results. 1) Does piracetam "work" for you? (you will know if it does, over a few weeks and taken consistently with a choline source) 2) What were the results of this short pupil reflex test? Did your pupils fluctuate or not?

Thank you.
  • 1

#2 acantelopepope

  • Registered User
  • 221 posts
  • 21
  • Location:Thailand

Posted 10 November 2009 - 02:39 AM

Here's a video:

People with knowledge of the subject may see what I'm getting at, but I'll wait until a few people try this before going into depth and citing studies I've found, etc.
  • 1

sponsored ad

  • Advert

#3 LIB

  • Registered User
  • 220 posts
  • 1

Posted 10 November 2009 - 03:12 AM

I can't do the eye test because I'm at work.

I'm impatient as well....can you tell us about the possible connection?
  • 0

#4 rollo

  • Registered User
  • 200 posts
  • -6

Posted 10 November 2009 - 03:32 AM

1) Piracetam works for me

2) My pupils did not seem to fluctuate. If there was any fluctuation, however small, it was when I needed to blink....

I believe I would pass the following pupil examination http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
  • 0

#5 tritium

  • Registered User
  • 335 posts
  • 58

Posted 10 November 2009 - 05:04 AM

Wow, I just found out that my pupils fluctuate a lot when performing this test! I hope there is not anything seriously wrong with me! Piracetam seems to have sporadic effects with me. Some days my clarity of thought is really good and on other days I have brain fog. I have taken Piracetam for over 7 months nonstop with Alpha-GPC and other choline sources.

What causes the pupils to fluctuate so much?

Edited by tritium, 10 November 2009 - 05:06 AM.

  • 0

#6 tritium

  • Registered User
  • 335 posts
  • 58

Posted 10 November 2009 - 05:57 AM

Wow, I just found out that my pupils fluctuate a lot when performing this test! I hope there is not anything seriously wrong with me! Piracetam seems to have sporadic effects with me. Some days my clarity of thought is really good and on other days I have brain fog. I have taken Piracetam for over 7 months nonstop with Alpha-GPC and other choline sources.

What causes the pupils to fluctuate so much?


Could this also be related to having trouble sleeping at night?

Should I see a doctor to get my eyes checked???
  • 0

#7 golden1

  • Registered User
  • 667 posts
  • 139
  • Location:US

Posted 10 November 2009 - 06:45 AM

Piracetam works consistently for me and my eyes fluctuate in size

I want you to do a test for me.

Get a flashlight.
Stand next to a mirror and turn all other lights off.
Shine the flashlight towards your eyes from the side, not directly.
Your pupil should become small.

Over the next 90 seconds, does your pupil remain small, without any variation? Or does it fluctuate, unable to stay small?

This is very important-- I think that I may have discovered what is causing piracetam to work so inconsistently.

Please post your results. 1) Does piracetam "work" for you? (you will know if it does, over a few weeks and taken consistently with a choline source) 2) What were the results of this short pupil reflex test? Did your pupils fluctuate or not?

Thank you.


  • 0

#8 acantelopepope

  • Registered User
  • 221 posts
  • 21
  • Location:Thailand

Posted 10 November 2009 - 06:46 AM

*
POPULAR

With healthy adre­nals, and particularly healthy levels of the hormone "aldosterone," your pupils will cons­trict, and will stay small the entire time you shine the light from the side. In adre­nal insufficiency, the pupil will get small, but within 30 seconds, it will soon enlarge again or obviously flut­ter in it’s attempt to stay cons­tric­ted. Why does this occur? Because adre­nal insuf­fi­ciency can also result in low aldos­te­rone, which cau­ses a lack of pro­per amounts of sodium and an abun­dance of potas­sium. This imba­lance cau­ses the sphinc­ter musc­les of your eye to be weak and to dilate in res­ponse to light.

So, here's the connection.

Aldosterone receptors are involved in the mediation of the memory-enhancing effects of piracetam.

Mondadori C, Häusler A.

Pharmaceutical Research Department, CIBA-GEIGY Limited, Basel, Switzerland.

The blockade of the memory-enhancing effects of piracetam resulting from adrenalectomy can be abolished by substitution with either corticosterone or aldosterone. However, corticosterone substitution does not reinstate these effects if the aldosterone receptors are blocked by the aldosterone antagonist epoxymexrenon.


And:

J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 1992 Mar;41(3-8):785-9.
Adrenalectomy, corticosteroid replacement and their importance for drug-induced memory-enhancement in mice.

Häusler A, Persoz C, Buser R, Mondadori C, Bhatnagar A.

Research Department, Pharmaceuticals Division, CIBA-GEIGY Ltd., Basel, Switzerland.

Adrenalectomy blocks the memory-improving effect of piracetam-like compounds in mice. If this blockade is due to the removal of endogenous corticosteroids, replacement therapy with exogenous corticosteroids should reinstate the effects on memory. The present experiments were designed to determine the appropriate replacement dose (concentration in the drinking fluid) for corticosterone and aldosterone, the main corticosteroids in mice. Based on the effects of corticosterone on thymus weight, replacement with 3 micrograms/ml corticosterone given in the drinking fluid (0.9% NaCl) for one week was found to be appropriate. The appropriate replacement dose for aldosterone was found by giving aldosterone to adrenalectomized (ADX) mice in the drinking fluid in combination with 3 micrograms/ml corticosterone. The combination of 3 micrograms/ml corticosterone + 30 ng/ml aldosterone resulted in a plasma ratio of corticosterone/aldosterone which most closely approximated the ratio seen in sham-ADX control animals. The physiologic adequacy of the corticosteroid replacement doses resulting from this study were clearly demonstrated in subsequent behavioral experiments where blockade of the memory-enhancing effects of piracetam by adrenalectomy were overcome by replacement with either 3 micrograms/ml corticosterone or 30 ng/ml aldosterone given in the drinking fluid.


So, when I discovered that aldosterone insufficiency was easy to test with the pupil reflex test, and that aldosterone was also indicated in piracetam's mechanism of action, it was not hard to infer that the reason Piracetam can work wonderfully for a few months and then seem to have negative effects in the same person may be directly connected to the function of that person's adrenals, and specifically, their levels of aldosterone.

I believe that Piracetam places an extra strain on the adrenals, and this explains the paradoxical brain fog and drowsiness that so many users report: and the mystery of its unreliability/inconsistency. When a person's adrenals are already strained, be it from lack of sleep and too much stress, or something more sinister, like hypothyroid or addison's disease, the use of a -racetam places extra stress on levels of aldosterone and corticosterone, and when these hormones are already in shortage, usage only exacerbates negative symptoms of aldosterone deficiency.

So far, a few of the treatments I am exploring include, but are not limited to:
-L-Tyrosine
-Vitamin C
-Iodine
-Adrenal Cortex (Isocort or Hydrocortisone)
-Dessicated Thyroid
-Ashwagandha, Rhodiola Rosea, and/or Panax Ginseng
-Ferritin (Iron), B6/B12
-Pregnenolone
-Tribulus Terrestrius
-Vinpocetine and Ginko Biloba (vasodilation)
-Phosphatidyl Serine
-DHEA
-Maca Root
-Borage Oil/Cod Liver Oil

These are all aimed at improving the function of the thyroid/HPA Axis. I believe that when the HPA axis is restored to healthy functioning, piracetam will have a consistent positive effect in the user.

On November 24th I'm seeing an endocrinologist to have a full panel of tests. Of course, by then I hope to have restored my adrenals as much as possible by supplementation, healthy stress reduction and sleep management, diet and exercise, but the results will still be valuable.

For now, I want everyone who is interested in putting this piracetam mystery to rest to do this very simple test. It will tell you a lot about your body and it will help the greater community.

Thank you.
  • 6

#9 LIB

  • Registered User
  • 220 posts
  • 1

Posted 10 November 2009 - 10:41 AM

Nice work acantelopepope! It seemed that it had something to do with adrenals, but I couldn't pinpoint exactly what. I know another member suggested taking pregnenolone if Piracetam didnt' work for you. Pregnenolone is eventually turned into Aldosterone down the line.

Through my experience I had piracetam work for me after I started taking Phosphatidylserine to blunt cortisol. Excess cortisol makes all of your hormones less available at normal levels. I started taking Phosphatidylserine because I had excess cortisol through the stress of chelating mercury, and dealing with yeast. I can reasonably confirm that Phosphatidylserine has lowered my cortisol because I need less, sometimes no thyroid medication. I know I need thyroid when I start to get cold, I don't get cold very often now, suggestion thyroid hormone is more available to my body. Also, a month or so after Phosphatidylserine, I started gaining muscle with no excersie or diet changes. Excess cortisol can increase muscle breakdown, and slows muscle growth (simplified). Phosphatidylserine has been great for me in and of itself, but now Piracetam has nice effects for me as well.

Edited by LIB, 10 November 2009 - 10:43 AM.

  • 0

#10 rasnjo

  • Registered User
  • 11 posts
  • 1

Posted 10 November 2009 - 12:43 PM

In my experience Piracetam doesn't work for me (I tried dosages from 600mg-10g and consistent use of 3,6 or 4,8g for months with 300mg-900g A-GPC). I sort of felt a small effect on motivation in the first few days, but I suspect this was merely placebo from the many success stories I have heard here. My pupils didn't seem to constrict much in the dark (20-35% smaller than normal at most), but I did see some obvious fluctuations right away. At the moment I'm taking a break from Piracetam since it didn't work, but I have ordered Pregnenolone and plan to try Piracetam again once it arrives.
  • 1

#11 acantelopepope

  • Registered User
  • 221 posts
  • 21
  • Location:Thailand

Posted 10 November 2009 - 04:44 PM

So far, the results:

Total who have tried the pupil test (including myself): 5
No fluctuations and positive responders: 1
Fluctuations and positive responders: 1
Fluctuations and negative responders: 3

Correlation between pupil fluctuation and piracetam response so far: 4/5 = 80%
  • 0

#12 acantelopepope

  • Registered User
  • 221 posts
  • 21
  • Location:Thailand

Posted 10 November 2009 - 06:53 PM

Fludrocortisone (Florinef) looks like a great corticosterone replacement, in theory. Looking at the above studies, it would seem that an individual should experience immediate relief of aldosterone deficiency upon use, thus facilitating the use of piracetam as well. Some pet product websites sell samples. Guinea pig, anyone?
  • 0

#13 tritium

  • Registered User
  • 335 posts
  • 58

Posted 10 November 2009 - 09:13 PM

Fludrocortisone (Florinef) looks like a great corticosterone replacement, in theory. Looking at the above studies, it would seem that an individual should experience immediate relief of aldosterone deficiency upon use, thus facilitating the use of piracetam as well. Some pet product websites sell samples. Guinea pig, anyone?


Where can these samples be found? I'll be willing to try almost anything.
  • 0

#14 acantelopepope

  • Registered User
  • 221 posts
  • 21
  • Location:Thailand

Posted 11 November 2009 - 01:11 AM

Fludrocortisone (Florinef) looks like a great corticosterone replacement, in theory. Looking at the above studies, it would seem that an individual should experience immediate relief of aldosterone deficiency upon use, thus facilitating the use of piracetam as well. Some pet product websites sell samples. Guinea pig, anyone?


Where can these samples be found? I'll be willing to try almost anything.


It goes without saying that you alone suffer any negative consequences of using Florinef. If you are suicidal, call 9-1-1, contact a psychiatrist, yadahyadahyadah.

Now, that being said, Florinef seems pretty darn safe.

It can be ordered here without a prescription, for your "pet": http://www.petpharm.org/index-us.htm

Looks like you have to fill out a waiver form too.

Here's the FDA's information on it.


Generic Name: fludrocortisone acetate
Dosage Form: Tablets
Description

Florinef Acetate (Fludrocortisone Acetate Tablets USP) contains fludrocortisone acetate, a synthetic adrenocortical steroid possessing very potent mineralocorticoid properties and high glucocorticoid activity; it is used only for its mineralocorticoid effects. The chemical name for fludrocortisone acetate is 9-fluoro- 11ß,17,21-trihydroxypregn-4-ene-3,20-dione 21-acetate; its graphic formula is:

Florinef Acetate is available for oral administration as scored tablets providing 0.1 mg fludrocortisone acetate per tablet. Inactive ingredients: calcium phosphate, corn starch, lactose, magnesium stearate, sodium benzoate, and talc.
Clinical Pharmacology

Corticosteroids are thought to act, at least in part, by controlling the rate of synthesis of proteins. Although there are a number of instances in which the synthesis of specific proteins is known to be induced by corticosteroids, the links between the initial actions of the hormones and the final metabolic effects have not been completely elucidated.

The physiologic action of fludrocortisone acetate is similar to that of hydrocortisone. However, the effects of fludrocortisone acetate, particularly on electrolyte balance, but also on carbohydrate metabolism, are considerably heightened and prolonged. Mineralocorticoids act on the distal tubules of the kidney to enhance the reabsorption of sodium ions from the tubular fluid into the plasma; they increase the urinary excretion of both potassium and hydrogen ions. The consequence of these three primary effects together with similar actions on cation transport in other tissues appear to account for the entire spectrum of physiological activities that are characteristic of mineralocorticoids. In small oral doses, fludrocortisone acetate produces marked sodium retention and increased urinary potassium excretion. It also causes a rise in blood pressure, apparently because of these effects on electrolyte levels.

In larger doses, fludrocortisone acetate inhibits endogenous adrenal cortical secretion, thymic activity, and pituitary corticotropin excretion; promotes the deposition of liver glycogen; and, unless protein intake is adequate, induces negative nitrogen balance.

The approximate plasma half-life of fludrocortisone (fluorohydrocortisone) is 3.5 hours or more and the biological half-life is 18 to 36 hours.
Indications and Usage

Florinef Acetate is indicated as partial replacement therapy for primary and secondary adrenocortical insufficiency in Addison’s disease and for the treatment of salt-losing adrenogenital syndrome.
  • 0

#15 acantelopepope

  • Registered User
  • 221 posts
  • 21
  • Location:Thailand

Posted 11 November 2009 - 01:45 AM

This might also be worth trying:

Progesterone 2.5% Cream (KAL brand) -- OTC.

Here's the theory:

Progesterone in turn (see lower half of figure to the right) is the precursor of the mineralocorticoid aldosterone, and after conversion to 17-hydroxyprogesterone (another natural progestogen) of cortisol and androstenedione. Androstenedione can be converted to testosterone, estrone and estradiol.

Pregenolone and progesterone can also be synthesized by yeast


I will look a little bit more into this before using it, because it's used for menopausal women, but someone has recommended to apply it in small dabs under the arm pits for relief from adrenal insufficiency-- and most relevantly here, for improvement of aldosterone levels.

It looks promising because it can be bought at places like Whole Foods without a prescription, and it's relatively cheap.
  • 0

#16 tritium

  • Registered User
  • 335 posts
  • 58

Posted 11 November 2009 - 05:43 AM

That website lists Florinef as a prescription medication, thus implying that you need a prescription to order. I wouldn't mind spending $45 if I knew for sure that it works. I think it would be wise to use samples first if available. Where can I fine the free samples that you were talking about earlier?
  • 0

#17 Rational Madman

  • Registered User
  • 1,295 posts
  • 488
  • Location:District of Columbia

Posted 11 November 2009 - 08:39 AM

Piracetam works consistently for me and my eyes fluctuate in size

I want you to do a test for me.

Get a flashlight.
Stand next to a mirror and turn all other lights off.
Shine the flashlight towards your eyes from the side, not directly.
Your pupil should become small.

Over the next 90 seconds, does your pupil remain small, without any variation? Or does it fluctuate, unable to stay small?

This is very important-- I think that I may have discovered what is causing piracetam to work so inconsistently.

Please post your results. 1) Does piracetam "work" for you? (you will know if it does, over a few weeks and taken consistently with a choline source) 2) What were the results of this short pupil reflex test? Did your pupils fluctuate or not?

Thank you.




Interesting theory, but I'm inclined to believe that the excitotoxic effects associated with prolonged use of piracetam is a more likely explanation for complaints of brain fog. If symptoms of brain fog arose---or worsened after first time use---it's possible that your NMDA receptors are already hyperactive, and in need of an inhibitory agent. Further, in the absence of blood lab results that positively indicate a deficiency of corticosteroids or DHEA, it would be premature to assume the presence of adrenal fatigue.

While adrenal fatigue is probably a real condition, I think the incidence is less common than proponents of this disorder would make you believe. Personally, I'm wary of any diagnosis that attempts to attribute several symptoms affecting multiple systems to a single condition. Especially when the condition is not widely accepted by practitioners.
  • 0

#18 Rational Madman

  • Registered User
  • 1,295 posts
  • 488
  • Location:District of Columbia

Posted 11 November 2009 - 08:40 AM

With healthy adre­nals, and particularly healthy levels of the hormone "aldosterone," your pupils will cons­trict, and will stay small the entire time you shine the light from the side. In adre­nal insufficiency, the pupil will get small, but within 30 seconds, it will soon enlarge again or obviously flut­ter in it's attempt to stay cons­tric­ted. Why does this occur? Because adre­nal insuf­fi­ciency can also result in low aldos­te­rone, which cau­ses a lack of pro­per amounts of sodium and an abun­dance of potas­sium. This imba­lance cau­ses the sphinc­ter musc­les of your eye to be weak and to dilate in res­ponse to light.

So, here's the connection.

Aldosterone receptors are involved in the mediation of the memory-enhancing effects of piracetam.

Mondadori C, Häusler A.

Pharmaceutical Research Department, CIBA-GEIGY Limited, Basel, Switzerland.

The blockade of the memory-enhancing effects of piracetam resulting from adrenalectomy can be abolished by substitution with either corticosterone or aldosterone. However, corticosterone substitution does not reinstate these effects if the aldosterone receptors are blocked by the aldosterone antagonist epoxymexrenon.


And:

J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 1992 Mar;41(3-8):785-9.
Adrenalectomy, corticosteroid replacement and their importance for drug-induced memory-enhancement in mice.

Häusler A, Persoz C, Buser R, Mondadori C, Bhatnagar A.

Research Department, Pharmaceuticals Division, CIBA-GEIGY Ltd., Basel, Switzerland.

Adrenalectomy blocks the memory-improving effect of piracetam-like compounds in mice. If this blockade is due to the removal of endogenous corticosteroids, replacement therapy with exogenous corticosteroids should reinstate the effects on memory. The present experiments were designed to determine the appropriate replacement dose (concentration in the drinking fluid) for corticosterone and aldosterone, the main corticosteroids in mice. Based on the effects of corticosterone on thymus weight, replacement with 3 micrograms/ml corticosterone given in the drinking fluid (0.9% NaCl) for one week was found to be appropriate. The appropriate replacement dose for aldosterone was found by giving aldosterone to adrenalectomized (ADX) mice in the drinking fluid in combination with 3 micrograms/ml corticosterone. The combination of 3 micrograms/ml corticosterone + 30 ng/ml aldosterone resulted in a plasma ratio of corticosterone/aldosterone which most closely approximated the ratio seen in sham-ADX control animals. The physiologic adequacy of the corticosteroid replacement doses resulting from this study were clearly demonstrated in subsequent behavioral experiments where blockade of the memory-enhancing effects of piracetam by adrenalectomy were overcome by replacement with either 3 micrograms/ml corticosterone or 30 ng/ml aldosterone given in the drinking fluid.


So, when I discovered that aldosterone insufficiency was easy to test with the pupil reflex test, and that aldosterone was also indicated in piracetam's mechanism of action, it was not hard to infer that the reason Piracetam can work wonderfully for a few months and then seem to have negative effects in the same person may be directly connected to the function of that person's adrenals, and specifically, their levels of aldosterone.

I believe that Piracetam places an extra strain on the adrenals, and this explains the paradoxical brain fog and drowsiness that so many users report: and the mystery of its unreliability/inconsistency. When a person's adrenals are already strained, be it from lack of sleep and too much stress, or something more sinister, like hypothyroid or addison's disease, the use of a -racetam places extra stress on levels of aldosterone and corticosterone, and when these hormones are already in shortage, usage only exacerbates negative symptoms of aldosterone deficiency.

So far, a few of the treatments I am exploring include, but are not limited to:
-L-Tyrosine
-Vitamin C
-Iodine
-Adrenal Cortex (Isocort or Hydrocortisone)
-Dessicated Thyroid
-Ashwagandha, Rhodiola Rosea, and/or Panax Ginseng
-Ferritin (Iron), B6/B12
-Pregnenolone
-Tribulus Terrestrius
-Vinpocetine and Ginko Biloba (vasodilation)
-Phosphatidyl Serine
-DHEA
-Maca Root
-Borage Oil/Cod Liver Oil

These are all aimed at improving the function of the thyroid/HPA Axis. I believe that when the HPA axis is restored to healthy functioning, piracetam will have a consistent positive effect in the user.

On November 24th I'm seeing an endocrinologist to have a full panel of tests. Of course, by then I hope to have restored my adrenals as much as possible by supplementation, healthy stress reduction and sleep management, diet and exercise, but the results will still be valuable.

For now, I want everyone who is interested in putting this piracetam mystery to rest to do this very simple test. It will tell you a lot about your body and it will help the greater community.

Thank you.

Interesting theory, but I'm inclined to believe that the excitotoxic effects associated with prolonged use of piracetam is a more likely explanation for complaints of brain fog. If symptoms of brain fog arose---or worsened after first time use---it's possible that your NMDA receptors are already hyperactive, and in need of an inhibitory agent. Further, in the absence of blood lab results that positively indicate a deficiency of corticosteroids or DHEA, it would be premature to assume the presence of adrenal fatigue.

While adrenal fatigue is probably a real condition, I think the incidence is less common than proponents of this disorder would make you believe. Personally, I'm wary of any diagnosis that attempts to attribute several symptoms affecting multiple systems to a single condition. Especially when the condition is not widely accepted by practitioners.
  • 0

#19 Steamboat

  • Registered User
  • 1 posts
  • 0

Posted 11 November 2009 - 09:39 AM

Interesting post...I have been lurking on the boards for a couple weeks now, and currently take piracetam. I have had mixed results. I have tried a range of doses, from approximately 1/2 gram to 5 grams, along with fish oil and choline (eggs as per Isochroma and now lecithin), and I find it hard to predict what will happen from any given dosage. I have experienced what I would consider a significant increase in verbosity and enthusiasm for mental activity at some times, nothing at others, and sleepiness on occasion. Also, over the last week I have felt the desire to sleep more and very little of the mind-sharpening effects.
Today I woke up and had a lot of trouble motivating myself to do much of anything. It was my day off, so I wanted to go on a bike ride, and I even planned the route, but then as I was brewing some mate to try to break through my tiredness (is this what others call the "brain fog"?) I came across this post. Well, I never went on that bike ride. If there is a way to ensure a positive response regularly from piracetam, I'm all over it.
First, the eye test. Only flashlight-type device was an LED headlamp with low battery, which might have been insufficient, but I did notice changes in pupil size while not moving the light or changing focus, so I'll say the test ran positive for possible aldosterone deficiency.
Second, the recommended supplements from Cpope. I had some maca root lying around which I never take, so I had 1 gram. I felt slightly better as I rode to the store, where I picked up some dessicated thyroid (delicious). So now I am all set for some self-experimentation. I realize, though, as I think about the possibility for error here, that I may not be able to avoid some uncertainty. I seem to get the best results (if any) from 2-5 grams piracetam about every three hours. I will try to establish my low threshold for activity in this experiment, as well as note the frequency of response or lack thereof to these doses. I wonder, though...since I do not know what my aldosterone levels are now, how tough will it be to say if supplementing has "corrected" this "problem". But if the shoe fits, wear it, I suppose. I will post, possibly in a new thread, news of my guinea pigging.
Oh, and hello everyone. Thank you, all of you, this forum is my go-to and starting point for reasonable discussion of nootropics, and I can tell that a lot of the people here really care about the truth and debunking snake-oil salesmen.
  • 0

#20 acantelopepope

  • Registered User
  • 221 posts
  • 21
  • Location:Thailand

Posted 11 November 2009 - 06:05 PM

Interesting theory, but I'm inclined to believe that the excitotoxic effects associated with prolonged use of piracetam is a more likely explanation for complaints of brain fog. If symptoms of brain fog arose---or worsened after first time use---it's possible that your NMDA receptors are already hyperactive, and in need of an inhibitory agent. Further, in the absence of blood lab results that positively indicate a deficiency of corticosteroids or DHEA, it would be premature to assume the presence of adrenal fatigue.

While adrenal fatigue is probably a real condition, I think the incidence is less common than proponents of this disorder would make you believe. Personally, I'm wary of any diagnosis that attempts to attribute several symptoms affecting multiple systems to a single condition. Especially when the condition is not widely accepted by practitioners.


I appreciate your response, Rol. However, I disagree with a few things: you say that excitotoxcicity is a more likely explanation for the sporadic negative effects of piracetam. I've seen this theory thrown around, and as far as I know there are no studies to suggest piracetam has lead to excitotoxic effects.

As I cited above, however, there are studies clearly showing that without sufficient aldosterone/corticosterone, piracetam not only loses its effects, but also was shown to have negative effects (study available upon request).

Further, I never suggested adrenal fatigue was at the root of this (though it may very well be, depending on how you interpret that term). Adrenal insufficiency, specifically of aldosterone levels, is really all that can be asserted with decent certainty by results of the pupil-reflex test.

I don't advocate someone taking a cocktail of supplements without understanding their interactions with one another and other medications, or possible side effects. I don't advocate someone forgoing medical treatment because they think they can treat themselves.

Now. Here are some developments:

-Nix the borage oil. It turns out, GLA (gammalinolenicacid) actually reduces aldosterone, which is why it's good for lowering blood pressure
-Vitamin B6 also has similar effects in high doses
-Iodized Sea Salt, taken at 1/2tsp once to twice daily is said to be enough to balance the sodium levels of those with aldosterone deficiency. It's said to take 1-4 weeks of daily consumption. If that does not work, it's recommended to move to Florinef (Fludrocortisone).
-I bought progesterone cream last night. I will dab a pea sized amount under my arm pits 2x a day for 5 days, then take 2 days off, and repeat.

Here are some resources:

http://www.stoptheth...opic.php?t=8562

http://www.stoptheth...om/aldosterone/

http://www.endotext..../adrenal24.html

http://enotes.tripod...dosteronism.htm

http://www.endfatigu...ne_program.html

Good luck, and for all the lurkers, please post your results. Let's share knowledge and get to the bottom of this.

Edited by chrono, 25 August 2010 - 04:03 PM.
trimmed quote

  • 0

#21 acantelopepope

  • Registered User
  • 221 posts
  • 21
  • Location:Thailand

Posted 11 November 2009 - 06:38 PM

Current count:

Correlation between pupil test and piracetam efficacy: 5/6 (83.33%) or, including LIB, who noticed improvement with pregnenolone (which converts to aldosterone), 6/7;

85.7%

I'd say that's pretty significant, but we need many more subjects to reach any sort of informal/anecdotal conclusions.

Edit: I'll also point this out: correlation does not indicate causation.

However, there are studies (above) asserting that we have good reason to believe aldosterone (and thereby pupil reflex) and piracetam efficacy are causatively related.

Edited by acantelopepope, 11 November 2009 - 06:41 PM.

  • 0

#22 tritium

  • Registered User
  • 335 posts
  • 58

Posted 11 November 2009 - 08:10 PM

Is it a serious health risk to have Adrenal insufficiency for such a prolonged period of time? I am fairly worried since my pupils would fluctuate about 1mm in size within the first seconds of the test continually. Are there any other side-effects of this insufficiency? Thanks for this discovery!
  • 0

#23 LIB

  • Registered User
  • 220 posts
  • 1

Posted 11 November 2009 - 09:46 PM

Is it a serious health risk to have Adrenal insufficiency for such a prolonged period of time? I am fairly worried since my pupils would fluctuate about 1mm in size within the first seconds of the test continually. Are there any other side-effects of this insufficiency? Thanks for this discovery!


I would take things one step at a time. The light test is an indicator that you MAY have low levels of aldosterone. Even more accurately it is suggesting that you have low levels of sodium, which is why your muscles are fluctuating. Low levels of sodium MAY be because you have low levels of aldosterone.

I'm hardly even an armchair endocrine/hormone expert, but if you do have low aldosterone, its likely there is something much larger that needs to be addressed. The likelyhood that you are ONLY low in aldosterone and simply supplementing the missing aldosterone will properly address the issue, is unlikely.

I'm not bagging on you or acantelopepope, I'm just saying take one thing at a time. You want to be very careful when playing with hormone levels.
  • 1

#24 mail1234

  • Registered User
  • 17 posts
  • 0

Posted 11 November 2009 - 11:37 PM

I've only just started taking piractam and notced no positive effects so far. I just tried the test and noticed rather large fluctuations in pupil size, which was quite worrying tbh...
  • 0

#25 Rational Madman

  • Registered User
  • 1,295 posts
  • 488
  • Location:District of Columbia

Posted 11 November 2009 - 11:50 PM

I appreciate your response, Rol. However, I disagree with a few things: you say that excitotoxcicity is a more likely explanation for the sporadic negative effects of piracetam. I've seen this theory thrown around, and as far as I know there are no studies to suggest piracetam has lead to excitotoxic effects.

As I cited above, however, there are studies clearly showing that without sufficient aldosterone/corticosterone, piracetam not only loses its effects, but also was shown to have negative effects (study available upon request).

Further, I never suggested adrenal fatigue was at the root of this (though it may very well be, depending on how you interpret that term). Adrenal insufficiency, specifically of aldosterone levels, is really all that can be asserted with decent certainty by results of the pupil-reflex test.

I don't advocate someone taking a cocktail of supplements without understanding their interactions with one another and other medications, or possible side effects. I don't advocate someone forgoing medical treatment because they think they can treat themselves.

Now. Here are some developments:

-Nix the borage oil. It turns out, GLA (gammalinolenicacid) actually reduces aldosterone, which is why it's good for lowering blood pressure
-Vitamin B6 also has similar effects in high doses
-Iodized Sea Salt, taken at 1/2tsp once to twice daily is said to be enough to balance the sodium levels of those with aldosterone deficiency. It's said to take 1-4 weeks of daily consumption. If that does not work, it's recommended to move to Florinef (Fludrocortisone).
-I bought progesterone cream last night. I will dab a pea sized amount under my arm pits 2x a day for 5 days, then take 2 days off, and repeat.

Here are some resources:

http://www.stoptheth...opic.php?t=8562

http://www.stoptheth...om/aldosterone/

http://www.endotext..../adrenal24.html

http://enotes.tripod...dosteronism.htm

http://www.endfatigu...ne_program.html

Good luck, and for all the lurkers, please post your results. Let's share knowledge and get to the bottom of this.


You're absolutely right. In my sleep deprived state, I embarrassingly confused adrenal insufficiency and adrenal fatigue. As for the excitotoxic effects of piracetam, though, I stand by my previous claim. Although unsupported by published literature, the excitotoxic effects of piracetam--when administered to bipolar subjects---has been noted by members of the Psycopharmacology Unit at Massachusetts General Hospital. This finding was brought to my attention after a consultation with Dr. Andrew Nierenberg, who is an esteemed member of the department. If taken conservatively, most users will probably be fine, but since the amount of research devoted to its application is shockingly limited, I would advise against liberal use. Again, for cognitive enhancement, there are dozens of safer and more effective options. So, stick with the safer options.

Edited by chrono, 25 August 2010 - 04:04 PM.
trimmed quote

  • 0

#26 stephen_b

  • Member
  • 1,615 posts
  • 183

Posted 12 November 2009 - 03:02 AM

Non-responder with fluctuations in pupil diameter. I have recently started supplementing with KCl to make sure I'm receiving the recommended amount. I have a hard time believing I'm sodium insufficient though. Pregnenolone is something I'll have to look into.

StephenB
  • 0

#27 tritium

  • Registered User
  • 335 posts
  • 58

Posted 12 November 2009 - 08:15 PM

How is the Progesterone Cream working so far? Have you noticed any results?
  • 0

#28 acantelopepope

  • Registered User
  • 221 posts
  • 21
  • Location:Thailand

Posted 12 November 2009 - 08:43 PM

How is the Progesterone Cream working so far? Have you noticed any results?


It would be impossible to say what is doing what, but I have noticed a rapid improvement in my pupil reflex test, as well as in my general energy and mental clarity!

Last night I tried ~1.5g piracetam, expecting the usual frustrating fogginess, confusion, fatigue, etc. Well, it didn't come! It was "working". Not how it worked when it was at its best, but that's not surprising, seeing as it takes about 2 weeks for the upregulation of acetylcholine receptors.

I'm experimenting more today.

My pupils still cannot maintain contraction, but they are moving a LOT less.

I have been taking:
-Progesterone 2x daily
-1/2 tsp sea salt 2x daily
-Isocort, 6 pellets (15mg cortisol) daily
-Tribulus Terrestrius
-3.5-6g vitamin C daily
-3-4mg Iodine daily

This is a startling and wonderful improvement. There is still a ways to go.

BTW, new correlation count: 8/9 = 88.88%

Edit: I've also been taking Pregnenolone 100mg every few days, vitamin D, and magnesium.

Edited by acantelopepope, 12 November 2009 - 09:05 PM.

  • 0

#29 PerfectSeek

  • Registered User
  • 38 posts
  • 4

Posted 12 November 2009 - 08:55 PM

I'm a non-responder/negative responder. I had huge fluctuations in pupil size, which was rather disconcerting.

I'm not sure if this is related, but I had negative responses to ALCAR in the past as well.

Edited by PerfectSeek, 12 November 2009 - 09:05 PM.

  • 0

sponsored ad

  • Advert

#30 usuallylurks

  • Registered User
  • 2 posts
  • 0

Posted 12 November 2009 - 10:02 PM

I'm a non-responder (brain fog responder) and had fluctuations in pupil size.
  • 0




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users