22 replies to this topic

[j03]

I know a lot of people here take regimens of supplements, even sometimes over 100 pills / day. So do any of you supplement with milk thistle for liver support?

http://en.wikipedia....Health_benefits

I did a blood test and the doctor said there were indications in the liver and kidney tests, but it wasn't anything to worry about, so I am wondering if i should be taking that.

Opinions?

[pycnogenol]

Hi k4t,

What are your liver AST/ALT enzyme readings from the blood tests?

I take Standardized Milk Thistle Extract 80% ("Silymarin") 300 mg twice daily
for liver support.

[I definitely do not take anywhere near 100 pills a day]

[j03]

Hi k4t,

What are your liver AST/ALT enzyme readings from the blood tests?

I take Standardized Milk Thistle Extract 80% ("Silymarin") 300 mg twice daily
for liver support.

[I definitely do not take anywhere near 100 pills a day]

ALT was 63 with a reference range of 12-49

AST was 28 with a reference range of 7-37 (So this one was within range)

[kismet]

I know a lot of people here take regimens of supplements, even sometimes over 100 pills / day. So do any of you supplement with milk thistle for liver support?

You could take a million pills and don't need "liver support". Just because you put something in a pill does not make it magically hepatoxic. It depends on the pills you swallow and with your current (lack of) knowledge I would urge to cut down considerably on all supplements including milk thistle.

If you think you need milk thistle, you should ask yourself why your "health" regimen is trashing your liver in the first place.

eedited for clarity and spellling!

Edited by kismet, 29 November 2009 - 07:11 PM.

[rwac]

It may not be the supplements.

Fatty liver disease is another possibility
Do you drink alcohol ?
Even if you don't NAFLD is a possibility.
(Non-Alcoholic Fatty Liver Disease)
Stop ingesting Fructose (Basically from HFCS and sugar)

The cure ? A low carb diet.

Edited by rwac, 29 November 2009 - 04:06 PM.

[j03]

It may not be the supplements.

Fatty liver disease is another possibility
Do you drink alcohol ?
Even if you don't NAFLD is a possibility.
(Non-Alcoholic Fatty Liver Disease)
Stop ingesting Fructose (Basically from HFCS and sugar)

The cure ? A low carb diet.

I consume a bit too much fructose, and I rarely drink, but I was drinking a lot around the time i did the blood tests. My doctor said it was the supplements but nothing to be worried about. I did some blood tests six months prior, and they came out fine.

[j03]

I know a lot of people here take regimens of supplements, even sometimes over 100 pills / day. So do any of you supplement with milk thistle for liver support?

You could take a million pills and don't need "liver support". Just because you put something in a pill does not make it magically hepatoxic. It depends on the pills you swollow and with your current (lack of) knowledge I would recommend to cut down considerably on all supplements including milk thistle.

If you think you need milk thistle, you should ask yourself why your "health" regimen is trashing your liver in the first place!

Wow stupidity at it's finest here! How did you correlate that my liver test had anything to do with supplements I'm ingesting? I was just randomly asking if anyone supports their liver (for whatever reason - supplements in this case).

And it's "swallow"


....

Edit:

Also, I was just reading that dandelion is a good adjunct for milk thistle - apparently it helps toxins pass though, and they work synergistically. Can anyone here comment on that?

Edited by k4t, 29 November 2009 - 05:01 PM.

[j03]

How about this combo?

http://public.natura...p?productid=100

Edited by k4t, 29 November 2009 - 05:03 PM.

[david ellis]

k4t, I had similar liver readings. My AST was normal, my ALT was 65. It took years to get to this state. I received a sonogram that found that I had an enlarged liver. Probably fatty liver. My blood pressure was out of control, I was taking 4 medicines and didn't have normal blood pressure. I decided the best thing I could do was lose weight. I did lose 20 plus pounds. But still trouble with high liver ALT readings and high blood pressure. Then I read the Eades 6 week middle plan, and started their diet. For the first few weeks the diet is protein shakes made with coconut milk, cream, and coconut oil. A diet with lots of saturated fat. The Eades said the diet would be good for my liver, and it was, my ALT dropped to 35. I took NOW sillymarin during this time, I don't know how much help it was. I am still taking a large 320 mg dose of Diovan for blood pressure. I was able to drop the other three medicines.

It was very satisfying to dodge another health bullet.

[kismet]

*insults*

Good to know you are thankful for suggestions, but don't forget other people may also benefit from my warnings; so just because I quote you, it does not necessarily mean that I address solely your problem.

How did you correlate that my liver test had anything to do with supplements I'm ingesting?

Well,

I know a lot of people here take regimens of supplements, even sometimes over 100 pills / day. So do any of you supplement with milk thistle for liver support?
...
My doctor said it was the supplements but nothing to be worried about. 

maybe because that's what you both implied and just explicitely stated?  But in any case, I did not "correlate", actually, I refuted this idea (correct supplementation should not harm one's liver).

Also, I was just reading that dandelion is a good adjunct for milk thistle - apparently it helps toxins pass though, and they work synergistically. Can anyone here comment on that?

So to reiterate: You will likely harm yourself with your rushed and imprudent supplementation. There's rarely a need for milk thistle. Definitely not with slightly elevated liver enzymes of unknown origin.

Edited by kismet, 29 November 2009 - 07:10 PM.

[rwac]

Then I read the Eades 6 week middle plan, and started their diet. For the first few weeks the diet is protein shakes made with coconut milk, cream, and coconut oil.

I can second the 6 week middle plan. It helped my liver a lot.

[j03]

k4t, I had similar liver readings. My AST was normal, my ALT was 65. It took years to get to this state. I received a sonogram that found that I had an enlarged liver. Probably fatty liver. My blood pressure was out of control, I was taking 4 medicines and didn't have normal blood pressure. I decided the best thing I could do was lose weight. I did lose 20 plus pounds. But still trouble with high liver ALT readings and high blood pressure. Then I read the Eades 6 week middle plan, and started their diet. For the first few weeks the diet is protein shakes made with coconut milk, cream, and coconut oil. A diet with lots of saturated fat. The Eades said the diet would be good for my liver, and it was, my ALT dropped to 35. I took NOW sillymarin during this time, I don't know how much help it was. I am still taking a large 320 mg dose of Diovan for blood pressure. I was able to drop the other three medicines.

It was very satisfying to dodge another health bullet.

That sounds serious, and that reading is starting to worry me. I'm average weight, and generally healthy, and in my 20's. What's the significance of that number? I just figured it was caused by drinking the day before the test, and possibly I had a virus of some sort. Could it be caused by supplements like my doctor said? I was taking EGCG at the time.

And does anyone know if milk thistle help in this case?

Edited by k4t, 29 November 2009 - 08:44 PM.

[david ellis]

k4t, I had similar liver readings. My AST was normal, my ALT was 65. It took years to get to this state. I received a sonogram that found that I had an enlarged liver. Probably fatty liver. My blood pressure was out of control, I was taking 4 medicines and didn't have normal blood pressure. I decided the best thing I could do was lose weight. I did lose 20 plus pounds. But still trouble with high liver ALT readings and high blood pressure. Then I read the Eades 6 week middle plan, and started their diet. For the first few weeks the diet is protein shakes made with coconut milk, cream, and coconut oil. A diet with lots of saturated fat. The Eades said the diet would be good for my liver, and it was, my ALT dropped to 35. I took NOW sillymarin during this time, I don't know how much help it was. I am still taking a large 320 mg dose of Diovan for blood pressure. I was able to drop the other three medicines.

It was very satisfying to dodge another health bullet.

That sounds serious, and that reading is starting to worry me. I'm average weight, and generally healthy, and in my 20's. What's the significance of that number? I just figured it was caused by drinking the day before the test, and possibly I had a virus of some sort. Could it be caused by supplements like my doctor said? I was taking EGCG at the time.

And does anyone know if milk thistle help in this case?

My doctor's gave me the same advice yours did. There seems to be nothing in their standard repertoire for elevated ALT. They are much more concerned if AST is high, not giving ALT much attention. Normally the liver enzymes stay in the liver, escaping into the blood indicates there is something wrong. Fatty liver elevates the ALT enzymes. I am much older than you. My body was apple shaped, relatively large abdomen. People were always surprised to hear that I weighed 200 lbs plus. I was a skinny fat guy. Fatty liver is increasing in young people. Don't be frightened, in less than a month you can have a midrange ALT test result. And the diet is easy, no-to very little hunger. After all, it is high in saturated fat-which best satisfies hunger. The book is a difficult read, the Eades just threw it together, but the science is solid. The diet works.

[niner]

I consume a bit too much fructose, and I rarely drink, but I was drinking a lot around the time i did the blood tests. My doctor said it was the supplements but nothing to be worried about. I did some blood tests six months prior, and they came out fine.

Liver enzymes bounce around even in healthy people. The usual reason? Alcohol. Try not drinking for a week and get retested. You'll probably be in range. Lose the fructose anyway. What supplements are you taking, anyway? Anything dubious?

Edited by niner, 30 November 2009 - 03:08 AM.

[j03]

k4t, I had similar liver readings. My AST was normal, my ALT was 65. It took years to get to this state. I received a sonogram that found that I had an enlarged liver. Probably fatty liver. My blood pressure was out of control, I was taking 4 medicines and didn't have normal blood pressure. I decided the best thing I could do was lose weight. I did lose 20 plus pounds. But still trouble with high liver ALT readings and high blood pressure. Then I read the Eades 6 week middle plan, and started their diet. For the first few weeks the diet is protein shakes made with coconut milk, cream, and coconut oil. A diet with lots of saturated fat. The Eades said the diet would be good for my liver, and it was, my ALT dropped to 35. I took NOW sillymarin during this time, I don't know how much help it was. I am still taking a large 320 mg dose of Diovan for blood pressure. I was able to drop the other three medicines.

It was very satisfying to dodge another health bullet.

That sounds serious, and that reading is starting to worry me. I'm average weight, and generally healthy, and in my 20's. What's the significance of that number? I just figured it was caused by drinking the day before the test, and possibly I had a virus of some sort. Could it be caused by supplements like my doctor said? I was taking EGCG at the time.

And does anyone know if milk thistle help in this case?

My doctor's gave me the same advice yours did. There seems to be nothing in their standard repertoire for elevated ALT. They are much more concerned if AST is high, not giving ALT much attention. Normally the liver enzymes stay in the liver, escaping into the blood indicates there is something wrong. Fatty liver elevates the ALT enzymes. I am much older than you. My body was apple shaped, relatively large abdomen. People were always surprised to hear that I weighed 200 lbs plus. I was a skinny fat guy. Fatty liver is increasing in young people. Don't be frightened, in less than a month you can have a midrange ALT test result. And the diet is easy, no-to very little hunger. After all, it is high in saturated fat-which best satisfies hunger. The book is a difficult read, the Eades just threw it together, but the science is solid. The diet works.

Thanks for that info. I'm going to try it. And it sounds like you got it under control, so that's encouraging for me!

[j03]

I consume a bit too much fructose, and I rarely drink, but I was drinking a lot around the time i did the blood tests. My doctor said it was the supplements but nothing to be worried about. I did some blood tests six months prior, and they came out fine.

Liver enzymes bounce around even in healthy people. The usual reason? Alcohol. Try not drinking for a week and get retested. You'll probably be in range. Lose the fructose anyway. What supplements are you taking, anyway? Anything dubious?

Right now I cut out almost everything and I'm just taking the milk thistle and daniloin, astaxanthan, and occasional buspar or feverfew (buspar for bruxism and feverfew for occasional migraines). I might add in vit D or omega three in a while, but i want to keep it at basic essentials.

For a long time i was taking:

5MG of Buspar 2 x daily

A H2 blocker for stomach reflux

Supplements:

Daily multi
Curcumin
Quercetin
astaxanthan
Vit D 1000 IU
Chromium Picolinate
Taurine 675 MG 4 x daily
Omega 3 1065 MG (EPA 400MG DHA 200 MG) 3 x daily
Melatonin 3 MG
Glutamine
Natural Factors Greens powder/drink 2 x daily (To supplement vegetable intake)
Resveratrol
Magnesium
Whey Isolate
Piracetam
Choline
Glucosamine/Chicken Collagen Type 2 supplement
ECGc supplement

...

Also, i developed this thing where I got red bloodshot eyes and migraines after taking supplements. I thought it was because i developed an allergy to magnesium sterate, but could that reaction be because of my liver?

[Lufega]

Also, i developed this thing where I got red bloodshot eyes and migraines after taking supplements. I thought it was because i developed an allergy to magnesium sterate, but could that reaction be because of my liver?

Did the bloodshot eyes go away after you stopped using the supplements or is it permanent? Choline, taurine and curcumin and hepatoprotective. I don't see why you can't keep using those.

[niner]

I consume a bit too much fructose, and I rarely drink, but I was drinking a lot around the time i did the blood tests. My doctor said it was the supplements but nothing to be worried about. I did some blood tests six months prior, and they came out fine.

Liver enzymes bounce around even in healthy people. The usual reason? Alcohol. Try not drinking for a week and get retested. You'll probably be in range. Lose the fructose anyway. What supplements are you taking, anyway? Anything dubious?

Right now I cut out almost everything and I'm just taking the milk thistle and daniloin, astaxanthan, and occasional buspar or feverfew (buspar for bruxism and feverfew for occasional migraines). I might add in vit D or omega three in a while, but i want to keep it at basic essentials.

Also, i developed this thing where I got red bloodshot eyes and migraines after taking supplements. I thought it was because i developed an allergy to magnesium sterate, but could that reaction be because of my liver?

That does not sound good. I think it's more likely to be due to one of the components of the supplements, either one that is supposed to be there, but perhaps more likely a contaminant that shouldn't be there. I doubt it is mag stearate. I don't think the reaction is because of your liver, but it might be caused by something that is also hurting your liver. It's good that you have cut back. If you do add more supplements to your regimen, add them one at a time and wait a couple weeks to make sure everything is ok. I've never heard of daniloin. What is it and what does it do? If you add anything, it should be vitamin D and fish oil.

Edited by niner, 02 December 2009 - 06:05 AM.

[j03]

Also, i developed this thing where I got red bloodshot eyes and migraines after taking supplements. I thought it was because i developed an allergy to magnesium sterate, but could that reaction be because of my liver?

Did the bloodshot eyes go away after you stopped using the supplements or is it permanent? Choline, taurine and curcumin and hepatoprotective. I don't see why you can't keep using those.

They're still bloodshot today. I took a reactine, and that didn't help.

[j03]

I consume a bit too much fructose, and I rarely drink, but I was drinking a lot around the time i did the blood tests. My doctor said it was the supplements but nothing to be worried about. I did some blood tests six months prior, and they came out fine.

Liver enzymes bounce around even in healthy people. The usual reason? Alcohol. Try not drinking for a week and get retested. You'll probably be in range. Lose the fructose anyway. What supplements are you taking, anyway? Anything dubious?

Right now I cut out almost everything and I'm just taking the milk thistle and daniloin, astaxanthan, and occasional buspar or feverfew (buspar for bruxism and feverfew for occasional migraines). I might add in vit D or omega three in a while, but i want to keep it at basic essentials.

Also, i developed this thing where I got red bloodshot eyes and migraines after taking supplements. I thought it was because i developed an allergy to magnesium sterate, but could that reaction be because of my liver?

That does not sound good. I think it's more likely to be due to one of the components of the supplements, either one that is supposed to be there, but perhaps more likely a contaminant that shouldn't be there. I doubt it is mag stearate. I don't think the reaction is because of your liver, but it might be caused by something that is also hurting your liver. It's good that you have cut back. If you do add more supplements to your regimen, add them one at a time and wait a couple weeks to make sure everything is ok. I've never heard of daniloin. What is it and what does it do? If you add anything, it should be vitamin D and fish oil.

i noticed whenever i took a supplements with magnesium sterate (from vegetable source) i would get a headache and bloodshot eyes. i still get it, but it was severe after consumption of things containing that.

I took milk thistle, reactine, buspar, and vitamin d today, and my eyes are sore and bloodshot. I think maybe the buspar has some magnesium sterate in it, and that might have caused it, as a lot of drugs have that constituent in it.

Apparently Dandiloin is a liver detoxifier: http://en.wikipedia....#Medicinal_uses

[palindromic]

Folks,

I recommend taking a look at my new thread on the results of Consumer Labs testing of Milk Thistle at:

Thread on Milk Thistle test results

[niner]

Also, i developed this thing where I got red bloodshot eyes and migraines after taking supplements. I thought it was because i developed an allergy to magnesium sterate, but could that reaction be because of my liver?

That does not sound good. I think it's more likely to be due to one of the components of the supplements, either one that is supposed to be there, but perhaps more likely a contaminant that shouldn't be there. I doubt it is mag stearate. I don't think the reaction is because of your liver, but it might be caused by something that is also hurting your liver. It's good that you have cut back. If you do add more supplements to your regimen, add them one at a time and wait a couple weeks to make sure everything is ok. I've never heard of daniloin. What is it and what does it do? If you add anything, it should be vitamin D and fish oil.

i noticed whenever i took a supplements with magnesium sterate (from vegetable source) i would get a headache and bloodshot eyes. i still get it, but it was severe after consumption of things containing that.

I took milk thistle, reactine, buspar, and vitamin d today, and my eyes are sore and bloodshot. I think maybe the buspar has some magnesium sterate in it, and that might have caused it, as a lot of drugs have that constituent in it.

Apparently Dandiloin is a liver detoxifier: http://en.wikipedia....#Medicinal_uses

Oh, Dandelion. When it comes to medicines, you have to spell them right. I don't mean to be schoolmarmish, but there are some drugs with similar names and mixing them up could kill you. You might want to try FireFox, which has a built-in spell checker. It's a lifesaver for me.

In another thread you mentioned that you were allergic to magnesium stearate that came from vegetable sources. It sounds like the problem might be a contaminant from whatever plant they use to make it. Supplements are more likely to have junk in them than pharmaceuticals are. You really need to sort out where the eye problem is coming from. I would stop EVERYTHING for as long as it takes to get healthy, then add things back ONE AT A TIME until you find the thing that is a problem. It won't hurt you a bit to not take vitamin D or milk thistle for a while. The milk thistle might not even be helping you, and might not even contain what it says it does. (see above) Reactine (cetrizine) and other non-drowsy antihistamines are not particularly good for treating an acute allergic reaction. A classic drowsy antihistamine like Benadryl (diphenhydramine) might work better, or, since it's an eye problem, maybe something in an ocular formulation would be best. It would be even better; essential really, to find the source of the problem and get rid of it.

[j03]

Also, i developed this thing where I got red bloodshot eyes and migraines after taking supplements. I thought it was because i developed an allergy to magnesium sterate, but could that reaction be because of my liver?

That does not sound good. I think it's more likely to be due to one of the components of the supplements, either one that is supposed to be there, but perhaps more likely a contaminant that shouldn't be there. I doubt it is mag stearate. I don't think the reaction is because of your liver, but it might be caused by something that is also hurting your liver. It's good that you have cut back. If you do add more supplements to your regimen, add them one at a time and wait a couple weeks to make sure everything is ok. I've never heard of daniloin. What is it and what does it do? If you add anything, it should be vitamin D and fish oil.

i noticed whenever i took a supplements with magnesium sterate (from vegetable source) i would get a headache and bloodshot eyes. i still get it, but it was severe after consumption of things containing that.

I took milk thistle, reactine, buspar, and vitamin d today, and my eyes are sore and bloodshot. I think maybe the buspar has some magnesium sterate in it, and that might have caused it, as a lot of drugs have that constituent in it.

Apparently Dandiloin is a liver detoxifier: http://en.wikipedia....#Medicinal_uses

Oh, Dandelion. When it comes to medicines, you have to spell them right. I don't mean to be schoolmarmish, but there are some drugs with similar names and mixing them up could kill you. You might want to try FireFox, which has a built-in spell checker. It's a lifesaver for me.

In another thread you mentioned that you were allergic to magnesium stearate that came from vegetable sources. It sounds like the problem might be a contaminant from whatever plant they use to make it. Supplements are more likely to have junk in them than pharmaceuticals are. You really need to sort out where the eye problem is coming from. I would stop EVERYTHING for as long as it takes to get healthy, then add things back ONE AT A TIME until you find the thing that is a problem. It won't hurt you a bit to not take vitamin D or milk thistle for a while. The milk thistle might not even be helping you, and might not even contain what it says it does. (see above) Reactine (cetrizine) and other non-drowsy antihistamines are not particularly good for treating an acute allergic reaction. A classic drowsy antihistamine like Benadryl (diphenhydramine) might work better, or, since it's an eye problem, maybe something in an ocular formulation would be best. It would be even better; essential really, to find the source of the problem and get rid of it.

I should proof-read my comments more often, I didn't even realize i spelled it wrong.

Anyways, I do believe I developed an allergy to magnesium stearate. I get really blood shot eyes and pounding headaches after taking supplements or drugs that contain that. It developed when i was taking a proton pump inhibitor a couple years ago, and then i started feeling it with supplements. i isolated the mag sterate, but i think I could possibly be developing allergies to other things. I am going to stop everything for awhile and see what happens. I'll see my doctor about bendryl though, or some eye droplets.