<RJB> Hello all.
<EmilG> Good evening.
<RJB> I don't have a prepared statement or focus so why don't we just open the floor.
<RJB> Essentially its lets pick Robert's brain apart...
*** Joins: ct (~email@example.com)
<RJB> Bruce -- are you out there and did you have something in mind to start this rolling?
<BJKlein> let me start..
*** Joins: mporter (~firstname.lastname@example.org)
<EmilG> I had a question, but after BJ
* BJKlein Official Chat Starts
<BJKlein> Robert J. Bradbury Founder of Aeiveos Corporation, an "education, research and investment company dedicated to understanding the causes of aging", Robert joins ImmInst to discuss life extension and other topics.
<BJKlein> ok.. open for q's now
<BJKlein> thanks for joinins us Robert
<EmilG> Okay, first question.
<EmilG> Do you think it was a mistake for Alcor to take on patients such as Ted Williams, who didn't have it absolutely crystal clear in his will that cryosuspension is what he wanted?
<EmilG> I don't think Alcor can afford another PR disaster.
<RJB> Well I'm not sure what the contents of the will was or whether there were conflicting directions given. I think it turns on the question of
<RJB> whether the people who handled the estate and/or body had the authority to decide how to dispose of it.
<EmilG> Right, but I think that Alcor should insist from now on (using Ted as an example of what not to do) people straighten out their papers.
<EmilG> Works better for everyone.
<RJB> The CSI and Law and Order episodes tend to have lots of wierd cases regarding what one can or cannot do with people after they are dead
<RJB> (at least when it comes to having legal authority to exume a body). I don't think cryonics has come very close to dealing with
<RJB> legal situations in which they want someone unfrozen for criminal investigative purposes.
<RJB> E. Well that makes sense. Better to have everything laid out as clearly as possible with as much "future" specification
<RJB> of how to deal with case (a); case (b); case ©; etc. For example I'd love to know the fraction of suspendees (or those signed up)
<RJB> who have made it clear whether or not they want to be reanimated if uploads are the dominant life form in the solar system.
<BJKlein> I believe Alcor is working to improve this part of the signup process.. at least when I signed up, it was rigorous (notary, 2 witneeses, etc)
<RJB> Sure, but *how* many future scenarios have they anticipated that they want you to select from?
<BJKlein> RJB, can you define your idea of an 'upload'
<RJB> Sure. In my mind an "upload" is a human (or post-human, probably human-derived) "mind" operating on non-classical hardware (i.e.
<RJB> not a "classical" brain).
<BJKlein> is there any reason why it's good to call such an entity/posthuman an 'upload'
<RJB> There are of course several paths to get there -- gradual inloading (xfer-loading?), disassembly and reforming, recreation, etc.
<BJKlein> because, to me it's easily missunderstood with computers and uploading software
<BJKlein> uploading downloading music, etc
<RJB> I believe the computer analogy is best. One has hardware and one has software. The software can run on different types of hardware. I had
<RJB> the distinction in my computer career of putting Oracle onto perhaps a dozen different kinds of hardware / Operating System combinations.
<RJB> I view the human mind as "software" and what you run it on is the "hardware". Just like you download songs from Apple into your iPod
<BJKlein> thus, with your uploading slant.. would you think it possible create 'life' in total software environment.. as opposed to it needing a physical interface w/ the environment
<RJB> I believe one will migrate minds between various kinds of hardware. (One could view the Apple->iPod "downloading" as "uploading" as
<BJKlein> last 'environment' = physical world
<RJB> in its stored form in the server it isn't doing anything useful. Once you transfer it, one generally plays it, which can be viewed as "running" ones mind
<RJB> after an upload.
<BJKlein> i suppose you're typing short paragraphs for fear of being cuttoff?
<RJB> Not really -- typing as fast as I can think -- sometimes truncating lines at my screen width to give people something to mull over while I keep typing...
<BJKlein> How would you respond to this statement: "The underlying impulse of life is the quest for immortality"
<RJB> Now, with respect to the "software environment" -- go back and look at my CV -- I and Forrest Howard generated a PDP10 (hardware) environment that ran on a PDP11 (hardware)
<RJB> environment. The software that used the simulator of the hardware didn't know the difference (once we got it working) except for the fact that running under the simulator was much slower in real-time.
<RJB> I would disagree with the statement. The underlying impulse of life is to reproduce.
<BJKlein> perhaps reproduce is method toward the goal of immortality
<RJB> Without mutation and selection (evolution) you have no adaptation and improvement of the biological hardware. If the primary goal was the quest for immortality we probably wouldn't be here.
<BJKlein> perhaps better to see immortality = continuance of system
*** Joins: ddhewitt (~email@example.com)
<RJB> Granted. The loss experienced with each generation is very significant.
<BJKlein> or perhaps, continuance of successful systems
<BJKlein> immortality is a crude way of saying it..
<BJKlein> but it seems DNA is a good example
<RJB> So immortality (or extended longevity) is a way of preserving a significant amount of information. That is why I tend to have an extropic perspective.
*** Joins: Randolfe (~Randolfe@ool-44c1e97a.dyn.optonline.net)
<BJKlein> sure, i agree.. stand still and get run over..
<RJB> DNA is a very primitive information carrier. But it is a reasonably reliable one.
<BJKlein> perhaps humans can take a clue from DNA
<RJB> In what way?
<BJKlein> be more protective and adaptive
<BJKlein> not thinking individual DNA's.. but the system of DNA reproduction
<BJKlein> perhaps a better goal is to be more like bacteria
<BJKlein> in that some bacteria can stay dormant for more than 200million years
<RJB> Well we are already pretty productive -- that is what the singularity is all about. I would agree that DNA (and the associated enzymes involved in its copying) have
<RJB> struck a reasonable balance between stability and adaptation.
<RJB> I don't think so...
<EmilG> RJB: In Vinge's original sense, the "Singularity" is about the fact that our models of the future break down past the point where the model predicts the existence of greater-than-human intelligence.
<EmilG> I don't think being "productive" in an everyday sense counts as the singularity, or even the prelude to it.
<RJB> I would question whether the breakdown is complete. You don't see the dolphins or whales getting that upset when the humans start hanging around (provided they aren't consuming them).
<RJB> Well there is a significant shift taking place between the productivity that Nature could accomplish (using DNA as the information carrier)... and
<BJKlein> Any luck with the job search, Robert?
<RJB> the productivity (adaptation, creation, whatever) that humanity is accomplishing through the force of collective minds.
<RJB> Not yet.
<EmilG> That's not what I meant by "break down".
<EmilG> I don't mean humans get upset, I mean we can't extrapolate any model of the future beyond where >human intelligence begins to exist.
<EmilG> If we could, we'd be that smart ourselves.
<RJB> It became clear a couple of weeks ago I wasn't going to get the job as the F.I. president.
<BJKlein> that'd be a cool job
<BJKlein> How did it become more clear?
<ddhewitt> What percentage of human brain power would you consider to be productive at the present time?
<RJB> E. not clear. I can watch how Eric or Robert F. or Robin H. think and know they are way off the end of the curve. That doesn't mean that everything breaks down in moving to that level.
<EmilG> RJB: Those guys are all humans, with most of the known human quirks and biases. An AI, on the other hand, would be like nothing we've ever seen before.
<EmilG> Though Vinge's "Singularity" doesn't presuppose AI in particular, just any >human intelligence.
<RJB> E. yes, in that respect you are off into Lem's Golum line of thinking.
<RJB> E. That is where I disagree. Human intelligence doesn't take this "huge" jump unless you can significantly change the underlying hardware.
<RJB> B. They sent around an email announcing that Scott Mize had been selected.
<RJB> D. well it looks like most of the creative thought (intelligence?) aspects are in the grey matter.
<BJKlein> Ahh, that would make things more clear..
<EmilG> RJB: I don't think you understand my question...
<BJKlein> Are there plans to move forward with Aeiveos?
<RJB> I haven't looked to see how much of the brain is actually "grey matter" -- the people doing the studies
<RJB> said that individual amounts in different parts of the brain varied from individual to individual -- which would explain
<EmilG> Of course human intelligence is unlikely to take a huge jump without a change in the underlying hardware. But we might create a superhuman intelligence from scratch in the form of AI, and it is impossible to predict what will happen in the future beyond that point.
<RJB> high skill levels in different areas.
<RJB> D. -- I'm not sure whether you wanted "individual" brain power or "collective" brain power...
<ddhewitt> I was thinking in terms of individual's whose brains are effectively employed rather than the percentage in an individual brain.
<RJB> D. Well that depends on what you mean by "effective" -- I certainly don't want the cook at a restaurant that prepares my diner to be unaware of basic hygene.
<mporter> emil: i predict that it will try to achieve its goals. voila, a prediction.
<BJKlein> speeking of cooks.. welcome John
<John_Ventureville> that won't happen when you eat at the Creekside Cantina!
<John_Ventureville> : )
<RJB> In fact I suspect if its a good restaurant the cook is quite creative.
<John_Ventureville> what did I miss?
<BJKlein> talking a bit about Sing and Immortality
<ddhewitt> Perhaps the singularity could happen if we just increased the amount of present human brain power being effectively employed. There are probably a couple billion brains that could be put to much better use.
<BJKlein> hmm, slavery?
<John_Ventureville> just turn Bill Gates into a transhumanist
<RJB> E. what is level or criteria you are using to define "and everything gets so strange" we can't understand or deal with it?
<Th3Hegem0n> ddhewitt i agree
<ddhewitt> No I was thinking empowerment BJ.
* BJKlein nods
<John_Ventureville> your turn of words made me think of the enslavement of humanity ala Matrix
<BJKlein> i think we're on the right path w/ internet
<RJB> D. You could certainly speed things up if you used humanity more effectively. The loss of "intelligence" alone due to poor nutrition is very large.
<John_Ventureville> And also the lack of available education for so many human being across the globe
<RJB> B. Yes, did you hear the story about the curb-side terminals in India?
<John_Ventureville> RJB, yes
<BJKlein> R. I've seen the documenary.. but not sure if I got the whole story.
<John_Ventureville> I saw a National Geographic story about it
<RJB> The fact that you don't have to give the kids "instructions" -- you just make it available and they figure out how it works is rather amazing.
<Randolfe> What happens with the curb side terminals in India?
<John_Ventureville> the kids developed their own terms for the various things/methods they encountered online
<TimFreeman> Whether there's any advantage to trying to do anything useful with all the potential useful human intelligence out there depends on how much time there is between now and the singularity. Education and repairing the ...
<TimFreeman> consequence of poor nutrition take time. How much time do you think there is?
<Th3Hegem0n> little to none...
<RJB> Its kind of like giving a kids calculators without teaching them arithmetic and letting them figure out what it is good for.
<Randolfe> Manipulating comput ers seems to be a special talent like playing certain musical instruments.
<John_Ventureville> the consequences of environmental pollution and "invisible" birth defects take time to be noticed
<TimFreeman> Th3Hegem0n: You're saying there is little to no time, or were you replying to something else?
<John_Ventureville> learning disabilities, add, etc.
<Th3Hegem0n> TIm: yes
<RJB> Well, it really depends on whether you are a hard AI takeoff fan.
<mporter> my take on 'post-singularity incomprehensibilism' (PSI for short)... as a matter of basic epistemology, it's true that the universe could surprise us in some unexpected way at any moment, that it may exceed our comprehension, and so on. the strong form of PSI works by supposing that a superintelligence might be able to tap into this hypothetical realm of 'things we don't or can't understand'. however, if we restrict ourselves to w
<RJB> Changing the hardware on which human minds run will take quite a bit longer (many decades perhaps).
<BJKlein> "restrict ourselves to w..." please post after, mporter.
<Randolfe> Gene therapy and genetic engineering might make great changes possible in a short period of time.
<mporter> ...if we restrict ourselves to what (we think) we know about the universe at present, what we should expect of the post-singularity world is that it will be 'more of the same', just more complicated.
<John_Ventureville> RBL, this may have already been discussed, but do you see the "singularity" happening by the gold standard year of 2035?
<RJB> I would submit that I know just how slow those fields work...
<BJKlein> Randolfe, do you have example of how this may help?
<Th3Hegem0n> If you are betting on 2035, go play in traffic, you have better odds...
<John_Ventureville> I want to be brought out of my dewar post singularity, normals vrs. gene tweaked war, human vrs. AI war, etc.
<Randolfe> Gene therapy got off to a very slow start. However, I believe advancements will come in huge unexpected waves after many failures. We have had more success with genetic engineering..but not yet in humans.
<John_Ventureville> Randolfe, gene therapy will be taking off when "unscrupulous" nations like China bore full speed ahead with research initiatives, despite whatever western ethicists may say about it
<Th3Hegem0n> Shit, John is right, Asians are way smarter than white people...
<John_Ventureville> China is hellbent on dominating nanotech, biotech, etc. if they can
<mporter> china's brain bank project: http://www.gnxp.com/...html?entry=2603
<Randolfe> I don't like ethicists regulating science. I believe in total freedom for exploration and discovery. If abuses occur, then they should be punished after the fact. Progress should not be held hostage by the "precautionary principle".
<John_Ventureville> Hegemon, not smarter, but simply more determined and less restrained
<RJB> R. Agreed. In part that is because genetic tweeking works best if you are starting with the unformed organism. But Greg Stocks perspective is still not available some 5 years later.
<TimFreeman> John_Ventureville: Asians have 16 IQ points advantage over caucasians on the average, IIRC.
<EmilG> Tim: I doubt it's that much.
<ddhewitt> IQ is just one dimension of intelligence.
<John_Ventureville> Tim, but ask yourself, how many more hours a week do Asian students study as compared to their western counterparts?
<RJB> T. Have they nailed that down to biology -- or is it perhaps the iconic character set or early education and discipline?
<John_Ventureville> I don't think the IQ difference is genetic, but environmental
<Randolfe> Don't feel intimidated by Asians, nor superior to blacks. Genius is randomly scattered and even if those curves are accurate, one-third of the lower group is brigghter than one-half of those the next step up.
<Th3Hegem0n> I doubt it's biology
<EmilG> I've seen the claim that although the *median* Asian IQ is slightly higher than that of Caucasians, the *distribution* of Asian IQ is narrower, such that you have fewer at the very low and very high end.
<John_Ventureville> "cram school" is a classic Asian creation and example of their fanatical devotion to academic endeavor
<EmilG> I dunno if I believe that.
<TimFreeman> EmilG: You're right. Page 269 of "The Bell Curve" says a few to 10 points. 16 points was the size of a different racial difference.
<RJB> J. You are going to have to be more precise with regard to what kind of S. by 2035 before I agree or disagree.
<Randolfe> Culture gets involved. Asians supposedly are bgetter at applying technology but caucasians and others are better at creating new concepts.
<John_Ventureville> Randolfe, not so much anymore
<outlawpoet> we're not arguing Sapir-Whorf here, are we? I was pretty sure that was discredited.
<John_Ventureville> RJB, I am talking about the classic "Eliezerian" hard take-off singularity.
<RJB> R. There have been a couple of good examples in biology labs over the last couple of years where the "precautionary principle" may have had some merit.
<Randolfe> The trouble with the precautionary principle is that it is frequently used as a club to stop ALL experimentation.
<John_Ventureville> basically, we develop the first true seedAI by 2030, and within a few years to evolves into a self-created god
<RJB> B. Aeiveos is pretty much in stasis at this time. It would have been nice if Robiobotics had gotten further along.
<BJKlein> Not familar with Robiobotics
<Randolfe> Sometimes, those who talk about AI display the awe that religious folks display toward "god".
<RJB> J. Then you have to adhere to the "AI is going to trump everything" perspective. I generally don't. I'm more of a Minsky Fan that "I"
<John_Ventureville> "The techno-singularity rapture will save all righteous transhumanists!"
<RJB> is a collection of clever solutions to specific problems. They will be solved one by one with a lot of hard work.
<Randolfe> John, will you be the Pope in the AI Church?
<Schaefer> [20:53] <TimFreeman> John_Ventureville: Asians have 16 IQ points advantage over caucasians on the average, IIRC. <--- You don't recall correctly. You're thinking of the Ashkenazim, perhaps.
<mjr> and sometimes people project their own awe for high-sl things unto others that happen to be talking about them
<John_Ventureville> *Randolfe, ONLY if that is what the AI asks of me, it's all about his/it's glory and not mine*
<John_Ventureville> : )
<RJB> Robiobotics was my 2000-2002 effort to get a company off the ground that would eliminate some of the barriers to accelerating anti-aging R&D, gene therapies, enzyme engineering for nanotech, etc.
* BJKlein Official Chat Ends
<BJKlein> please stay as long as wish
<RJB> Basically it was a concept of how to make genetic engineering *really* cheap.
<John_Ventureville> what was the problem?
<RJB> I'll be around for at least another hour or so...
<BJKlein> cool, thanks
<RJB> In 2000-2002 -- post the dot-com bubble bursting was not the time to be starting a new venture.
<John_Ventureville> so bad timing did you in
<RJB> Yes. That was the story for Aeiveos Sciences Group as well (to a large degree).
<John_Ventureville> but now I read that venture capital money is falling like manna from heaven for biotech ventures
<Randolfe> BJ, "Official Chat Ends" is like the guillotine blade coming down.
<BJKlein> eh, sorry
<John_Ventureville> is that true?
<BJKlein> just don't want the guests to feel they must stay longer
<BJKlein> but they better stay at least an hr
<BJKlein> or no singularity for them
<RJB> To some extent -- but you have to have something that is going to yield cash flow in 3-4 years and that is hard to come by.
<ddhewitt> Last year was good for biotech funding but the VC's are tightening the purse strings again.
<Randolfe> BJ, now you sound like the warden as well as the executioner:)
<BJKlein> power corrupts, sorry
<John_Ventureville> BJ, when we open our nightclub you can be the one to nicely kick everyone out, we can have you do it via closed circuit television
<John_Ventureville> yes, the world will be seeing a nightclub RUN by cryonicists!
<outlawpoet> yeah, you can have a Skype box, and he can yell at people over his headset
<BJKlein> damn, hotel-horses-food-.. night club = natural progression i see
<Randolfe> A nightclub with drinks so cold, they will freeze your tongue.
<outlawpoet> the first VOIP bouncer.
<outlawpoet> (the box says) "get the **** out.
<BJKlein> or i'll burn you with my lazer eyes
<RJB> Recent comments by Pete Estep on the GRG mailing list have been illuminating. The VCs are putting the screws to Elixir (having already done that with Centagenetix) to make something happen.
<outlawpoet> your tele-operated bouncer-bot
<John_Ventureville> and Bruce can control a robot with a taser which runs around (with a monitor showing his face) to make sure everyone actually does leave
<Randolfe> This club is getting too crazy. Goodnight to all. I am going back to my friends in the other room.
* BJKlein zaps Randolfe
<outlawpoet> the most important thing is that it have a probe "breathalyzer"
<RJB> What other room?
<outlawpoet> "you've had too much"
<ddhewitt> Good night, gents. Guess that means I miss the Singularity, BJ.
<John_Ventureville> good night
<BJKlein> next time, duane
<BJKlein> singularity second comming
*** Joins: Th3Hegem0n1 (~Th3Hegem0@c-24-98-68-229.atl.client2.attbi.com)
<John_Ventureville> we are looking into a breathalyzer which a guest actually has to put money into so it will work for him/her
<BJKlein> double meaning
<John_Ventureville> I love it
<John_Ventureville> pay US to see how drunk you are!
<BJKlein> yeah, seen 'em.. blow into a straw
<Th3Hegem0n1> wow this whole room conversation has completely changed in the 5 minutes i was gone
<John_Ventureville> our club will go where our conference room presently is (downstairs)
<John_Ventureville> Hegemon, we are discussing (among other things) the first night club to be run by cryonicists
* BJKlein admits to drinking small amounts of brain killing beer on occasion
<John_Ventureville> I would love to see a cryonics/transhumanist theme for the place, but most likely that will not be the case
<John_Ventureville> Bruce, not you!!
<BJKlein> justified by the hope that decreased stress is outweighed by negative effects
<Th3Hegem0n1> i hope i win the lottery...
* BJKlein is dissolusional
<EmilG> John: Well, there is that future-themed bar in NY where cameras are pointed at each table and you can look at everyone else's table
<John_Ventureville> I sold tons of brain cell killing mixtures today, proving how self-destructive people can be
<BJKlein> that's right.. i think i saw pics of EmilG there
<John_Ventureville> EmilG, I saw a story on that
<BJKlein> so got the liscense, john?
<John_Ventureville> we sure did
<John_Ventureville> (two weeks late)
<John_Ventureville> damn gov't
<EmilG> BJ: yup, I was there
<John_Ventureville> I envision a club with go go dancers coming out of steaming dewars, and that's just for starters
<RJB> I'm looking back at 3 or 4 paths of this conversation that could be informative but didn't get explored in depth. Either people aren't interested or they really don't want the singularity or immortality.
<EmilG> John: I don't know if that would hurt Alcor's image, or help it.
<John_Ventureville> liquor license
<EmilG> RJB: What do you think of the Singularity Institute's efforts?
<John_Ventureville> at this point I don't see how it could hurt it!
<EmilG> Though you already mentioned you're not a hard AI takeoff fan.
<John_Ventureville> : (
<EmilG> Where would this nightclub be, in Phoenix?
<BJKlein> Sorry for the interlude, RJB... do you know David Kekich?
<John_Ventureville> no, in a town roughly one hour north of Phoenix
<John_Ventureville> RJB, most people here don't have your depth & breadth of knowledge.
<RJB> I've stated in previous chats that I think it is highly useful to investigate aspects of AI. I would tend to put them with several other high payoff research efforts (things like evolving genes, RNAi, etc.)
<EmilG> do you still visit Harvard on occasion? (I'm class of '00)
<outlawpoet> do you have a list of high payoff endeavors, in terms of required investment, and ranked possible effect?
<John_Ventureville> RJB must be writing one heck of a reply
<RJB> So I support efforts by the S.I., Cyc, and others.
<TimFreeman> Has the S. I. written any code?
<RJB> (Delays are due to situations where I'm trying to find something on the web or in my mail files)
<Th3Hegem0n1> they seem a bit distant from writing code
<RJB> Not to my knowledge. I think Eli is still working on how to make sure the AI is friendly.
<Th3Hegem0n1> Looks like Eli isn't the God he promised...
<outlawpoet> TimFreeman, no supersystem real AI code that I'm aware of. Eliezer has not shared any private code he's developed.
<RJB> Now, now, now... Remember "the impossible takes just a little bit longer"...
<mporter> RJB: why is RNA interference so important? and do you mean it is important as a natural phenomenon, an addition to our concept of how cells work, or as a new biotech tool?
<outlawpoet> I tend to suspect that he has experimented with at least low level algorithms, but he doesn't talk about it.
<BJKlein> Robert, do you think ImmInst should title the Flim Project:
<outlawpoet> and I'm certainly not the person to ask.
<BJKlein> Exploring Life Extension
<Th3Hegem0n1> Eli is an ass. I doubt he ever completes it, because he will probably only work on the project aone
<RJB> M. As a biotech tool. Being able to turn individual genes (or groups of individual genes) off under your control is a really big hammer.
<John_Ventureville> I just want to say running a lodge, restaurant, night club, etc. may not seem as glamorous as a for profit scientific research company, but it can generate a healthy chunk of income to further the immortalist cause in various ways, and protect cryonicist interests
<RJB> ELE is not bad -- provocative but not too threatening.
<TimFreeman> RJB: Did you mean Eli instead of ELE?
<Th3Hegem0n1> no, exploring life extension
<outlawpoet> John_Ventureville, I would tend to agree with you. AND if you can get your private business to act as a testbed for ideas, public reaction, and community and organization building, that's something that the scientists tend to suck at.
<RJB> T. ELE (Extending Life Extension); Eli (Eliezer)
<BJKlein> ok.. how about three parts:
<John_Ventureville> outlawpoet, thank you
<BJKlein> Part I - Regenerative Medicine
<BJKlein> Part II - Improving the Mind & Body
<BJKlein> Part III - Cryonics
<EmilG> Th3Hegem0n: Michael Wilson is SIAI's confirmed second team member, so you're wrong about him only working alone.
<RJB> J. The theme song should be "Girls just want to have fun".
<Th3Hegem0n1> Ah well SingInst stopped sending me the newsletter for some reason
<John_Ventureville> Eliezer turned down my request to trade links
<outlawpoet> I think it should be Crystal Method's "Keep Hope Alive"
<RJB> For part III how about "Mitigation Strategies" (or something like that).
<John_Ventureville> so now he is on the Venturist "unofficial enemies list!"
<BJKlein> Preservation Techniques
<outlawpoet> Part III : Risk Management
<RJB> Don't dive right into Cryonics... But point out the fact that if one allows that we are going to defeat aging and one has
<BJKlein> hmm.. Risks to Life..
<John_Ventureville> starting with cryonics could instantly harden the hearts of many viewers
<RJB> a group of people that will not make the "advanced therapies" cutoff one has a moral obligation to provide some alternatives.
<BJKlein> damn we're timid for a bunch of immortalists
<outlawpoet> wouldn't immortalists tend to be timid?
<John_Ventureville> not timid, wise
<RJB> Risk Management is good -- it allows you to deal with the "hazard function" overall. Brings in things like nanotech and vasculoid.
<BJKlein> yep yep
<outlawpoet> healthy living in general
<John_Ventureville> *wise as uplifted owls*
<RJB> I'll be speaking at a CME seminar in Vegas in Oct. and I intend to bring those topics into the discussion.
<BJKlein> ok Risk Man it is
<outlawpoet> 'wise as uplifted buddhist temples with owles in the eaves.'
<mporter> RJB: your other high-priority topic was 'evolving genes' - what's that about?
<RJB> Pointing out how this involves nutrition, exercise, gene therapies, cryonics, nano-tech augmentation, etc.
<BJKlein> refresh: http://imminst.org/film.php
* BJKlein waves to Mind
<John_Ventureville> sentient buddhist temples made of smart materials with uplifted owls hooting brilliantly in the eaves? I like that!
<RJB> There are one or more companies now that have the technology to evolve genes to produce proteins with specific qualities.
<John_Ventureville> last night I saw a film I hadn't seen since I was 10 years-old
<Mind> ***waves back
<RJB> Its going on in two paths -- one is relatively random evolution and selection of the desired properties; the other involves relatively
<Th3Hegem0n1> me too john
<Th3Hegem0n1> the mask
<RJB> directed or engineered evolution.
<John_Ventureville> a classic British Hammer film
<John_Ventureville> "Quartermass and the Pit"
<mporter> are we talking about bacterial colonies in both cases?
<John_Ventureville> truly ahead of its time
<Th3Hegem0n1> except my 10 years old was 1997
<outlawpoet> holy crap
<outlawpoet> now *I* feel old.
<RJB> Bacteria replicate ~10-40x faster than eukaryotic cells so if you want to evolve and/or get feedback quickly that is what you focus on.
<Th3Hegem0n1> 75 years isn't shit
<John_Ventureville> an ancient alien spacecraft is found buried beneath London, and while the crew appears dead, they in fact were uploaded into the living smart matter of the ship where they plan to impose their social order upon humanity
<John_Ventureville> *not a very pleasant social order*
<Th3Hegem0n1> sounds cool
<outlawpoet> was it more interesting the second time around, or not as much?
<John_Ventureville> came out in '68, and considered the best of the Quatermass films
<RJB> E. Don't get back to Harvard very often. Still has a warm place in my heart however. Would love to have been there at the recent SETI meeting (early Aug.) as I think Dyson was in the audience and I would have loved to have spoken directly with him.
<outlawpoet> I find a lot of those movies are more interesting in abstract than they are to watch
<John_Ventureville> I wish the series would be picked up & remade by a U.S. tv or film studio
<John_Ventureville> the film was not scary as I had remembered it, but far more intelligent
<John_Ventureville> I really misunderstood it the first time around
<outlawpoet> I'll have to investigate
<mporter> er... is that a chromosome with centromere?
<RJB> M. -- your comments don't seem to be in-sync with the rest of what I am seeing -- could be some conversation entries getting dropped?
<RJB> I've got "Th3 has left", "the film was not", "I really misunderstood", "I'll have to investigate", "Hmmm...", "er... is that a ..."
<mporter> no... what i see is "<OmniDo> H", and while i have no idea what that signifies, my last remark was just a lame attempt to revive the biological discussion
<mporter> ok, i lost the "mmm"
<mporter> from the "Hmmm"
<mporter> who are these people who are artificially evolving genes?
<John_Ventureville> what is the latest thinking about telomeres?
<RJB> Ok, one at a time.
<John_Ventureville> if you insist
<RJB> M. I don't remember the company off the top of my head. (Will put that on a back burner seach during the conversation).
<mporter> the other day i ran across a research group in my vicinity who are still working on telomeres. (i suppose mainstream biologists never stopped working on them, it's just that the topic went out of fashion in >H circles...)
<RJB> But the chief scientists were involved in creating some highly antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria a few years
<mporter> 'Our principal focus is currently on the molecular and cell biology of the heterogeneous nuclear ribonucleoprotein (hnRNP) A/B family of protein molecules. These fascinating multi-tasking proteins function in both the cytoplasm and nucleus... A second hnRNP A/B nuclear function is in the maintenance of the telomeres that cap the ends of eukaryotic chromosomes. hnRNP A2/B1 binds the TTAGGG telomere repeat sequence and appears to in
<RJB> back... So uncomforting that I think that one of the American Society for Microbiology(?) actually requested that they destroy the organisms.
<John_Ventureville> I was about to ask about that
<John_Ventureville> mother nature does well enough on her own
<John_Ventureville> with human stupidity (people not taking their antibiotics for the time instructed)
<mporter> hey, that's nothing. in australia we discover how to engineer ultravirulent strains of mousepox, and then publish the recipe!
<RJB> Yep, that was one of the other examples that comes to mind.
<mporter> JV - this was a controversial episode a few years ago.
<RJB> There are now 3 or 4 of them where one begins to wonder if the precautionary principle may not have more than zero throw weight.
<John_Ventureville> *I hope no one of malevolant bent (and a biotech degree) came across that*
<mporter> JV - you should read about the soviet biopreparat program some time. e.g. anthrax strain 836.
<RJB> Both of the examples cited are in the published literature. And I'm reasonably certain I know how to go far beyond what has been done thus far (from a negative standpoint).
<John_Ventureville> isn't the big concern that the old Soviet scientists involved in that went "to the highest bidding employer" a number of years ago?
<RJB> M. is correct -- there was a huge amount of work that was done in the FSU that has yet to be destroyed.
<John_Ventureville> with the obsession regarding "homeland security" I am amazed that is true
<RJB> It is not at this time clear if any or how much of the knowledge and/or materials from the FSU may have leaked into the hands of people we might prefer would not have it.
<John_Ventureville> my worst fear is not millions of dead Americans from a terrorist nuclear/biotech attack
<mporter> RJB - i assume the russian program continues in stripped down form. no great power is ever going to abandon bioweapons research now that we have globalized guerrilla groups seeking WMD.
<John_Ventureville> but the loss of civil liberties involved in the desire of the gov't to "protect" us
<RJB> Cough... H.S. is making progress but it hardly generates confidence if you really know what the risks are.
<RJB> Their supported orgs actually came out and said that MS Explorer was insecure -- that has to be some progress...
<mporter> a blow against cyberterrorism
<outlawpoet> it's becoming fashionable to bash IE
<outlawpoet> the Slate ran an article telling users to switch.
<John_Ventureville> various terrorist groups can simply cause us millions in manpower payroll "damages" by phoning in a threat and then from thousands of miles away they can sit back and laugh at us acting like a hive of angry bees trying to stop their imaginary agents
<RJB> Go back to Netscape 4.x -- much faster and isn't a "real" target for the cyberterrorists...
<John_Ventureville> I will remember that