15 replies to this topic

[waldemar]

I just found this article about mortality in overweight versus normal people. I just can't believe it.

http://www.nytimes.c...0...and&emc=rss

[kismet]

Oft-discussed topic, but there's a simple and superficial explanation. The apparent benefits are due to a combination of a. real benefits and b. reverse causation (disease-related weight-loss preceeding actual disease by years if not decades). But real benefits certainly extend to survivability in accidents or from infectious disease (more "resources" to spare). There is almost no metabolic state without its pros and cons.

However, the weight of the evidence likely favours low-normal weight, and the jury on CR in relation to aging per se is out. You simply have to watch and minimise certain risks when you are under weight.

[Mind]

Here another Imminst topic discussing the seemingly contradictory "overweight vs. lifespan" topic.

[waldemar]

Interesting.

kismet, on Mar 29 2010, 06:59 PM, said:

However, the weight of the evidence likely favours low-normal weight, and the jury on CR in relation to aging per se is out.

Ok, thought so.

kismet, on Mar 29 2010, 06:59 PM, said:

You simply have to watch and minimise certain risks when you are under weight.

Like infection. Anything else?

[Alex Libman]

I can think of one definite advantage of being overweight: you're less likely to fall for any primitivist delusions that one can run or jump or benchpress or wrestle or shag one's way to greatness.  Unfortunately for the fitness fanatics among us, macho instincts simply don't scale as well as cowardly materialism does.  A fit person is more likely to outrun you and beat you in a fistfight; a fat person is more likely to drive a fast car and own a powerful gun.  A fit person is more likely to put his faith in toughing out an illness; a fat person is more likely in seeking preemptive medical care.  You get the idea.  If humanity exists somewhere along a continuum between monkeys and godlike super-machines, the fat people are just a tiny bit closer to the latter.  Of course if you're a fit person who doesn't let it go to his head then you've got the best of both worlds.

That aesthetic aside, the advantage mentioned on this thread is probably just a minor statistical anomaly explainable by the lower weight category including underweight births, crack addicts, and people dying from cancer.

Edited by Alex Libman, 30 March 2010 - 05:18 PM.

[eason]

Alex Libman, on Mar 30 2010, 05:14 PM, said:

If humanity exists somewhere along a continuum between monkeys and godlike super-machines, the fat people are just a tiny bit closer to the latter.

You make some interesting points, but I disagree with this one statement. A fat person is probably loading his system with junk food, including excess sugar, and as a result deteriorating his brain. Modern medicine can patch up his heart or give him new kidneys... but it can't restore his thinking abilities! Those are forever lost with each additional bit of crap he puts inside his body.

[Alex Libman]

You might be right, but then again fit people might be denying themselves pleasure from food (for which they may be compensating through other means) and sacrificing hours in the gym in vain, while fat people will have access to the same medical breakthroughs which really make the difference, and possibly access them sooner if they spend the time others spend working out by pursuing an additional income or looking into experimental surgical procedures.  There is no objectively right or wrong prediction - it's a matter of individual choice.

I myself am overweight even though I'm a strict vegan who fanatically avoids all sweets (even fruits) and artificial substances, and drinks nothing but water.  I eat nothing but beans and raw vegetables, and my weight remains the same.  Sedentary lifestyle and bad genes...

Edited by Alex Libman, 31 March 2010 - 10:19 PM.

[eason]

I was generalizing. Don't mean to offend. If your diet is great, then you're not harming yourself food-wise as do some other people. Then again, your excess weight could just be calorie excess. I know that's what it was in my case, working out or not. Anyway, I do believe based on the scientific data we have that excess calories are pro-aging.

Edited by eason, 31 March 2010 - 10:35 PM.

[shifter]

Fat people may have a slower metabolism, which looking at other animals, slower metabolism = longer lifespan

Fatter people have more reserves of energy. When they get sick, the body has more to draw on. A Thin person getting sick and no appetite will be hit a lot harder.

In old age, a fat person who has a fall will likely not get as damaged as a thin person

Humans are animals. We are designed to carry and store fat. Its not a bad thing (unless too much!)

I am not talking about being obese here in my above points. Just a little more towards the current 'overweight' category. And being fat doesn't have to come from junk food. Back doing karate a while back, I looked far better at 69kgs than I do today at 69kgs (my 'normal' weight range is 65-79kgs). I have been 79kgs once before, but that was from crap food. I am sure if I was at the gym and eating good food, I would have looked much better at 79kgs and be healthier too.

Alex Libman, on Mar 31 2010, 11:14 PM, said:

You might be right, but then again fit people might be denying themselves pleasure from food (for which they may be compensating through other means) and sacrificing hours in the gym in vain, while fat people will have access to the same medical breakthroughs which really make the difference, and possibly access them sooner if they spend the time others spend working out by pursuing an additional income or looking into experimental surgical procedures.  There is no objectively right or wrong prediction - it's a matter of individual choice.

I myself am overweight even though I'm a strict vegan who fanatically avoids all sweets (even fruits) and artificial substances, and drinks nothing but water.  I eat nothing but beans and raw vegetables, and my weight remains the same.  Sedentary lifestyle and bad genes...

[hypnotoad]

I think of lot of these articles have to do with the slow cultural paradigm shift towards acceptance of fat people since so many people in first world nations are obese.  What used to be considered fat is now normal.  These articles almost come across as justification why its ok (ie normal) to be sedentary and fat. To borrow a line from The Incredibles - "when everyone is fat, no one will be."

Edited by hypnotoad, 31 March 2010 - 10:41 PM.

[eason]

shifter, on Mar 31 2010, 10:35 PM, said:

And being fat doesn't have to come from junk food.

Yeah, back when I spent way too much time in the gym, I'd still get fat if I ate too much (even clean food). Is eating excess "good calories" as harmful as eating "bad calories?" I don't think it's nearly as harmful. Then again, based on CR studies, maybe trimming the excess calories would be even better.

[Skötkonung]

Alex Libman, on Mar 31 2010, 03:14 PM, said:

You might be right, but then again fit people might be denying themselves pleasure from food (for which they may be compensating through other means) and sacrificing hours in the gym in vain, while fat people will have access to the same medical breakthroughs which really make the difference, and possibly access them sooner if they spend the time others spend working out by pursuing an additional income or looking into experimental surgical procedures.  There is no objectively right or wrong prediction - it's a matter of individual choice.

I myself am overweight even though I'm a strict vegan who fanatically avoids all sweets (even fruits) and artificial substances, and drinks nothing but water.  I eat nothing but beans and raw vegetables, and my weight remains the same.  Sedentary lifestyle and bad genes...

Your characterization is flawed in that you are comparing a fat vs fit person. The article was comparing fat versus normal people on a standard American diet. Fit people, described as those who undertake moderate exercise, maintain an optimal weight, and eat a nutritious and well planned diet will typically excel beyond any fat person in terms of health span and life span. Furthermore, you are assuming that to be "fit" one must be in the gym many hours a day and under the constant pressure of self denial. This is not the case. Fit  people enjoy a balanced lifestyle. The key here is moderation. Fit people aren't limited to pro-athletes or models.  

In your characterization, you are also forgetting the stigma placed against those who are overweight. Fat people generally make less money and are overlooked more often for promotion (viewed as lazy or self indulgent?). In this respect, becoming fit is a smart career move.

While I admit I do not know your height, weight, or anything else beyond your provided description of "overweight," it is safe to say that being overweight is a symptom of metabolic disorder. I find it amusing that you attribute the cause to "bad genes" when it is realistically more the "sedentary lifestyle" aspect and your food choices / total caloric intake.  Your ancestors didn't succeed to produce you because they were fat and slow.

[Skötkonung]

eason, on Mar 31 2010, 03:43 PM, said:

shifter, on Mar 31 2010, 10:35 PM, said:

And being fat doesn't have to come from junk food.

Yeah, back when I spent way too much time in the gym, I'd still get fat if I ate too much (even clean food). Is eating excess "good calories" as harmful as eating "bad calories?" I don't think it's nearly as harmful. Then again, based on CR studies, maybe trimming the excess calories would be even better.

Anything in excess is bad for you. That said, eating too many "good calories" is probably much better than eating "bad calories." Having your extra calories come from a large salad is probably going to cause less metabolic distress than an extra piece of pie.

[russianBEAR]

Have you ever seen a baby born excessively fat ? Like with huge rolls of fat right out of the womb ? I never have. That means it's a dysfunctional condition caused by disorderly living. You don't have to be skinny as a tweaker and be gettin blown away by the wind like me since everyone has a different metabolism, but having outright tons of extra fat is just simply dysfunctional that is all.

[NDM]

If you're so skinny...why did you choose the name RussianBear?

[russianBEAR]

Because of the prevailing Western stereotype about Russia having bears walking around in Ushanka hats drinkin vodka and singing the Soviet anthem  

Plus I like wild animals and bears are cool