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Vitamin K2 MK-4 use in Japan


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#1 asako

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 05:06 AM


I am a Japanese biochemist working in a branch of Japanese pharmaceutical in London.
I have been reading this forum for a while and I'd like to add my knowledge of Vitamin K. However the original thread is locked, I am creating this new thread.

Vitamin K2 MK-4 (menatetrenone or Menaquinone-4) is the choice of treatment of osteoporosis from 50's in Japan. Japanese scientists have discovered that a special protein called osteocalcin binds and transports calcium to where calcium should belong. To put in simply, when osteocalcin sees calcium deposited in a wrong place, such as in heart muscle or artery, it will bind to it and transport it to the bone and depoit it there. However activation of this protein requires Vitamin K2, and they also discovered it is MK-4 form of Vitamin K2 that activates osteocalcin.

It is also discovered that non-MK-4 form of Vitamin K2s do get converted to MK-4 form in body. Animals, including rats are quite efficient in the conversion but many people show deficiency in the conversion and these people develop osteoporosis.

What is interesting in Vitamin K2 MK-4 treatment is that, no calcium supplement is given but the bone still strengthens. This is because our body already have more than enough calcium to make our bone strong, but the calcium is in wrong place and once osteocalcin is activated, it moves calciums that are already in our body to the place they should belong.

All studies were done using MK-4 form of Vitamin K2, because when animals are sacrificed after having fed with diets rich in Vitamin K1 and Vitamin K2 MK-7 but devoid of Vitamin MK-4, still predominant the form of Vitamin K found in their body is MK-4. The consensus is that, MK-4 is the only usable form of Vitamin K2 in our body and other forms of vitamin K2s remain unused till they are converted to MK-4. The problem compounds at this point, because all Vitamin K2s coagulate blood and unless immediately utilised, Vitamin K2 circulating in blood plazma in substantial quantity poses serious hypercoagulation risks. Interestingly, people prone to osteoporosis are also prone to atherosclerosis, which can be easily understood in this context, in that, non-MK-4 form of Vitamin K2s stay much longer in the blood plasma in conversion deficient people, which in turn, act as hypercoagulation agent, in other words, may trigger formation of atherosclerosis and eventualy ischemic stroke. This is why non-MK-4 form of Vitamin K2 is never used for any kind of treatment except hypo-coagulation symptom and this is also why in Japan, Menaquinone or Menaquinone-7 (MK-7) are only allowed to be sold in mcg strength by law, never in mg(miligram) strength (similar law exists here in the UK). MK-4 is prescribed upto 90mg(miligram) a day, but MK-7 should never be ingested in miligram strength. Doing so will put you in risk of ischemic stroke.

It should be also noted that current push of MK-7 by many supplement manufacturers originated from sudden surge of demand of Nattokinase all over the worlds. Nattokinase is produced by removing Vitamin K from Natto, and the form of Vitamin K in Natoo is MK-7. This left Nattokinase manufacturers surplus of MK-7, thus they are pushing MK-7 as an osteoporosis cure. You can easily see this by comparing Nattokinase venders and MK-7 venders. They are the same.

I hope this havs clarified some of the confusion raised in this forum regarding MK-4.

PS: Natto as food, does not pose hypercoagulation risks because it is well balanced between MK-7, a clot forming factor and Nattokinase, fibrinolytic factor.

Edited by asako, 30 March 2010 - 06:01 AM.


#2 nameless

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 05:19 AM

note that mk-7 is only recently being pushed by nattokinase manufacturers who btw are paying for the recent flood of mk-7 studies. why? mk-7 is a byproduct of nattokinase (nattokinase is basically mk-7 removed natto) and as nattokinase gains huge popularity in the US, which btw is a nonsensical thing since nattokinase can be extremely dangerous (it dissolves clots indiscriminately which may lead to internal/brain hemorrhage), nattokinase manufacturers now are trying to catch two rabbits with one stone: clearing their huge surplus of mk-7 and profiting while doing so.


It should be also noted that current push of MK-7 by many supplement manufacturers originated from sudden surge of demand of Nattokinase all over the worlds. Nattokinase is produced by removing Vitamin K from Natto, and the Vitamin K form in Natoo is MK-7. This left Nattokinase manufacturers surplus of MK-7, thus they are pushing MK-7 as an osteoporosis cure.


Amazingly similar viewpoint as Full Circle stated in a vitamin D thread... *wonders why someone has such a strange MK-4 agenda*
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#3 asako

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 05:26 AM

In fact, Full_Circle has provided correct information. However as I have noticed frequently, ego factor clouds reasoning in American forum. I myself already feel very uneasy to have been accosted with such ego attack at my first sincere post. I am also very surprised to find some of assistants(navigators?) of this forum not only do not encourage fair intellectual discussion but also seem to be not-well educated in many aspects of basic Biochemistry. This will be my last post here.

Edited by asako, 30 March 2010 - 06:05 AM.


#4 ahk

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 06:00 AM

Asako, you say you're a biochemist and know of studies backing up your claims, but you are still not providing any links to the actual studies or peer reviewed papers or even extracts.

I would very much like to believe you but this lack of citations is plain weird. Why you are asking the rest of us to hunt for this research on your behalf is also beyond me.

Also, it's a bit disheartening to see you decide to not participate further

#5 1kgcoffee

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 06:20 AM

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but this sounds like the work of a sock puppet. You come here without introduction, claim you're a biochemist (argument from authority fallacy,) make two posts and then leave. Now, explain... why would a respected biochemist waste his precious time educating some laymen on the internet? What value could he get out of an english internet forum frequented mainly by those of much lower qualification? Why would he care?? It doesn't add up.

I only want two things. First, some links to studies which substantiate your mk-4 claims (Japanese is fine). Surely a biochemist would know where to find these. And second, your credentials. After all, if you really are a biochemist, and care enough to educate us, you could take two seconds to verify your identity at the very least. What do you say?

If not, I am calling your bluff full_circle. If that is the case, full_circle, you REALLY need to get a life. No amount of vitamins can make up for how much your life must suck to put so much effort into convincing random people on the internet of your absurd ideas. Pathetic.

Edited by 1kgcoffee, 30 March 2010 - 06:26 AM.

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#6 asako

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 06:49 AM

Thank you for strengthening my point.

Why do you expect me to waste my precious time on indexing my post with valid studies? Any scientist would know what time consuming process it is.
As you pointed out, what value could I get from internet forum frequented mainly by those of much lower qualification?

My consciencous only goes as far as putting corret information out there for the misguided mass, who might actually believe in value of MK-7, but not as far as spending huge amount of time indexing my post, that is of course, unless I am an assistant in this forum, which many assistants here are obviously not practicing.

You want validation, spend your time, not mine. Again, this is my very last post. I feel horrible now and I regret that I have ever visited this "weird" site.

Edited by asako, 30 March 2010 - 06:52 AM.


#7 1kgcoffee

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 07:11 AM

Enough of this nonsense full_circle. You are so full of shit.

Edited by 1kgcoffee, 30 March 2010 - 07:11 AM.

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#8 blackbox

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 07:27 AM

I wonder what psychological trauma you have suffered from Full_Circle to have you develop paranoia of this magnitude......

Edited by blackbox, 30 March 2010 - 07:28 AM.

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#9 1kgcoffee

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 07:42 AM

Would one of the mods care to verify that asako is located in london as he claims?
http://www.geoiptool.com/

I'm also curious where blackbox and full_circle reside. Let's put this baby to rest. :)

#10 sentrysnipe

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 07:50 AM

Sigh. Once again, it all comes down to money money money. Thanks for sharing, asako-san. Yoroshiku ^_^

edit for the conspiracy theory: BTW I live in Karufornia

Edited by sentrysnipe, 30 March 2010 - 07:53 AM.

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#11 blackbox

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 07:58 AM

I just checked all Vitamin K supplements at iherb.com and indeed found all MK-7 come in mcg dose whereas all MK-4 in mg dose.
Carlson Lab's come in 5mg a capsule dose and Thorne Research's in liquid drop form, a drop is 1 mg. (I am excluding combination products.)
Unlike some claims in other threads, Now brand is NOT MK-4, it is MK-7.
Is it so because MK-7 is superior? of course not. it is because mg dose of MK-7 will give you a stroke.

mcg is for microgram, 1 millionth of a gram. mg for milligram, 1 thousandth of a gram.

the conspiracy theory: I live in New Jersey :)

Edited by blackbox, 30 March 2010 - 08:00 AM.


#12 tunt01

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 10:13 AM

looks like we have come.... full circle?

ba dum bum
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#13 maxwatt

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 11:24 AM

asako's post resolves to a server in the UK, a website hosting service's mail server.
For $10 to $20 anyone can set up an email service anywhere in the world in lieu of using a proxy server. The ip address is inconclusive.

It is too much a coincidence that several posters have appeared recently with similar agendas and posting styles, assertions without proof, and a belligerent attitude when questioned on their claims. Then they step in to support each other: fool-circle, black-box, and now asako.

Someone once said extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Everything asako has said is at least plausible; it would be a shame not to follow up on it.
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#14 mikeinnaples

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 11:36 AM

Why do you expect me to waste my precious time on indexing my post with valid studies? Any scientist would know what time consuming process it is.
As you pointed out, what value could I get from internet forum frequented mainly by those of much lower qualification?


Yet you waste your time and energy posting invalidated crap? With the amount of effort you have spent making several accounts to troll with and the amount of time you have spent both responding to and posting your garbage, you could have easily posted links to a few real sources and shut us all up. You are very transparent sir.

#15 a_mortal

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 11:57 AM

http://en.wikipedia....i/Menatetrenone

Full_Circle was fully right after all. A circle for Full_Circle and Asako and big X to all Full_Circle bashers.

By the by this is getting weirder and weirder. I knew something was wrong when flock of navigators and their followers gathered up and bashed Full_Circle in a simple post on MK-4 for no reason. And the same thing is going on again right here. Now I even suspect all the above Full_Circle and Asako bashers are in fact second and third user names of the navigators themselves because I just do not see what Full_Circle and Asako have possibly done to be hated so much by this many members? Does Imminist have a contract with MK-7 venders as it does with Revgenetics?

And for god's sake you rude self-righteous people better start learning to respect and reason with people from other countries, since immortals may as well find a whole lot different global hegemony in as short as half a century.

Edited by a_mortal, 30 March 2010 - 12:11 PM.

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#16 caston

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 12:02 PM

a_mortal: Welcome to imminst please introduce yourself in the "introduce yourself" forum.

#17 a_mortal

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 12:15 PM

Well thanks for the invite, Caston.
But I just cannot shake this weird feeling what the h**l is going on here???
Does Imminst really think us members are so dumb that they can get away with this overt pitch for specific products?

#18 caston

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 12:30 PM

You're not a member your a registered user. If you wish to become a member you must join using the donate/join link at the top. You can then vote on things like the directorship and who the navigators are.

#19 mikeinnaples

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 12:37 PM

Sad and very obvious.

#20 a_mortal

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 12:44 PM

Sad and very obvious.


Why did you bash Asako? I don't see one good post from you that remotely gives you the right to say the disrespectful things as you did in your post above? Are you Imminist navigator using a second user ID? What is your agenda here?

Edited by a_mortal, 30 March 2010 - 12:46 PM.


#21 mikeinnaples

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 01:41 PM

Sad and very obvious.


Why did you bash Asako? I don't see one good post from you that remotely gives you the right to say the disrespectful things as you did in your post above? Are you Imminist navigator using a second user ID? What is your agenda here?


I didnt say anything disrespectful. I asked for links to research, and you still haven't provided them ....yet you found the energy and time to create what is now your (4th?) account.

It is pretty chilidish, and at this point, it is fairly obvious that your only agenda is to make waves ...because even if you were attempting to push a product, it has gone so far past stupidity that people here wouldn't buy your product even if it was worthwhile.

Give up, continue being stupid ....its up to you, but I am done responding to an obvious troll.

#22 maxwatt

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 02:06 PM

http://en.wikipedia....i/Menatetrenone

Full_Circle was fully right after all. A circle for Full_Circle and Asako and big X to all Full_Circle bashers.

...


A link to a stub of an article in Wikipedia is supposed to prove the fool-circle/asako thesis?
There was no antagonism, just a request for scientifically recognized sources to validate the claims. The antagonism came from the OP, who belligerently refused to provide any credible evidence.

I did learn Eisai Co. in Japan, manufactures much if not all MK4, and promotes and MK4 under the tradename Glakay. But nothing appears in pub med on a cursory search, that directly confirms asako's claims.

Edited by maxwatt, 30 March 2010 - 03:10 PM.


#23 maxwatt

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 03:04 PM

....


I am positive you are one of the Imminit navigators with multiple used IDs, desperately trying to smear Full_Circle and Asako to ensure profit out of your contracts with MK-7 venders.
Otherwise why would you stay in this thread 24/7?
I also reckon your hidden agenda runs much deeper than simple monetary gain.
Jeez why don't you just terminate whatever contracts you have with whichever MK-7 venders?
And I know as a fact that you are running multiple user IDs.

If you limit my posting ability or suspend me, I'll let the world know about it.

I haven't multiple accounts. I am frequently at my computer, and tune in for amusement. I am unpaid for what I do here. I know of no contracts with MK-7 vendors. For all I know MK-4 may be a superior product, we have only asked for evidence based reasoning and have been met with a firestorm of BS trolls.

I've suspended your posting ability except with moderator approval. Have a nice day.

Edited by maxwatt, 30 March 2010 - 03:08 PM.


#24 kismet

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 03:07 PM

 

Jeez why don't you just terminate whatever contracts you have with whichever MK-7 venders?
And I know as a fact that you are running multiple user IDs.

Yeah, talking about contracts. Dear admins, where's my cheque for the shameless MK-7 promotion I have been doing?

As of 2001"No adverse effects associated with vitamin K consumption from food or supplements have been reported in humans or animals. Therefore, a quantitative risk assessment cannot be performed and a UL cannot be derived for vitamin K. A search of the literature revealed no evidence of toxicity associated with the intake of either the phylloquinone or menaquinone forms of vitamin K."

#25 teacup_pig

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 04:24 PM

Full_Circle and Asako,
Don't mind these souless losers and continue sharing your knowledge, we need good people like you two.
And all you losers, go treat yourselves with nice handful of MK-7 caps. That will take care of you.
But then none of you got the balls to do it, do you?

Edited by teacup_pig, 30 March 2010 - 04:43 PM.


#26 1kgcoffee

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 05:07 PM

rofl #5
Obvious troll is obvious

#27 teacup_pig

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 05:30 PM

A navigator with an endless # of user IDs who wouldn't take a miligram of MK-7 but still screaming MK-7 in any quantity is harmless lol

#28 medievil

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 06:50 PM

???
This stuff is getting weirder and weirder.

A few facts:
When someone makes a claim that is not in line with what we know, we ask for references, simple.
If someone doesnt give refs and keeps posting the same stuff over and over again, offcourse this would lead to disagreements.

And now because we wont agree with he's claims we are seperate accounts from the mods here with a secret agenda?? LOL

If ppl just posted references, all this stuff wont happen, and we would beleive full circle or he's buddies

Just my 2 cents.

#29 Sillewater

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 07:43 PM

this is funny

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#30 sentrysnipe

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Posted 31 March 2010 - 01:25 AM

Oh and BTW, I can just start Tor and pretend that I am in Germany, or some place nice. But I won't. Just saying :)

EDIT: wait, a mg MK-7 can give you a stroke? Are you serious?

Edited by sentrysnipe, 31 March 2010 - 01:27 AM.





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