• Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In    
  • Create Account
  LongeCity
              Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans

Photo
* * * * * 1 votes

A theoretical alternative to Cryonics - time travel!


  • Please log in to reply
21 replies to this topic

#1 Alex Libman

  • Guest
  • 566 posts
  • 0
  • Location:New Jersey, USA

Posted 29 May 2010 - 11:41 AM


Now hear me out - I'm not talking about anything that isn't physically possible, like travel back in time, or would require technology unlikely to be invented in the 21st century. What might be invented, however, are all sorts of ways to accelerate a spaceship in orbit around the sun and getting it close to the speed of light. That acceleration will have multiple benefits: simulated onboard gravity, an elliptical orbit that takes you closer and farther from the sun (which can have industrial uses, like transporting ore extracted from the asteroid belt to be melted by the sun), and, if you go fast enough... time distortion! In the time it takes you to age 10 years on that spaceship, the scientists on Earth might have 20 years to invent cures for your diseases!

All of this is very theoretical of course, but still worth thinking about.

#2 chrwe

  • Guest,
  • 223 posts
  • 24
  • Location:Germany

Posted 29 May 2010 - 11:50 AM

Actually, that thought came to me when I first learned about the theory of relativity "Wow, I want a spaceship, then I will come back in 100 earth years and be immortal"

slight drawback: Get a spaceship, survive there for 10+ years, get a spaceship, maintenance issues?, get a spaceship...

Did I mention "Get a spaceship"? It seems such a big problem that it`s worth mentioning a few times :|<

but in theory, a great alternative because I sure would like to forego the "dying" part that is unfortunately a precursor to cryopreservation

#3 Alex Libman

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 566 posts
  • 0
  • Location:New Jersey, USA

Posted 29 May 2010 - 12:44 PM

Of course, good things cost money. It makes sense that over the next few centuries humanity will normalize into these distinct classes:

  • The Orbital Proles - the cheapest place to live if you don't have much money will be space stations, the cheapest of which would be vast 3D cities of commieblocks in space. Those space stations will be all but "printed" by vast armies of spacebots (unmanned spaceships) engaged in space mining and manufacturing. Having a free apartment there will either be considered a "human right" by the global welfare state, or something that private charities will be able to provide in its absence, with the primary motivation being to reduce overcrowding on Earth. The proles won't have to work and will enjoy a life of relative luxury by our standards, with free basic food, entertainment tokens, health-care, and so forth, but luxuries like rare life extension tech, vacations on earth, and licenses to have more than 0-2 children will cost extra.
  • The Space Rich - individuals living in more desirable space cities or having a little space station of their own, but the technology to achieve time dilation will remain too expensive for mere millionaires. They will utilize cryonics for self-preservation, but that method will be considered very risky, damaging, and inferior to time dilation.
  • The Earthly Rich - the planet will be transformed into a garden (including polar regions and deserts), and millions of artificial lakes and islands will blur the old idea of distinct continents and oceans. The economy will be focused on agriculture ("food forest" polyculture now being more economically efficient due to robotization, as well as more aesthetically pleasing), aquaculture, luxury living, tourism, and safaris / zoological preserves, with all industrial and most service-sector activity taking place in space. With travel to/from orbit becoming cheaper than tickets to earthly resorts, most "middle class" people will only spend "weekends" and vacations on earth, and only the rich will be able to afford living here full time.
  • The Star Chasers - the super-rich who can afford super-velocity on their luxurious spaceships, from which they can watch the profits on their investments in the economy accumulate at rapid speed!

Then again, time dilation might turn out to be accessible sooner and cheaper than we all think! Does anyone here know enough about astrophysics to theorize?

Edited by Alex Libman, 29 May 2010 - 01:03 PM.


#4 chris w

  • Guest
  • 740 posts
  • 261
  • Location:Cracow, Poland

Posted 29 May 2010 - 01:07 PM

Dude, that is massive, I'd be SO up for that if a had a chance. Maybe we should gently knock on Sperling's door and later get some underpaid Ruskies toiling for us :|< . Seriously though, alluring concept in theory. I too would like to hear from someone if at all it is or isn't doable.

Edited by chris w, 29 May 2010 - 01:32 PM.


#5 Kolos

  • Guest
  • 209 posts
  • 37
  • Location:Warszawa

Posted 29 May 2010 - 11:01 PM

Interesting idea but I'm afraid that when we have the capacity of near-speed of light travel aging wouldn't be that big of a problem, actually my guess is we would have immortality long before interstelar travel.

#6 chris w

  • Guest
  • 740 posts
  • 261
  • Location:Cracow, Poland

Posted 30 May 2010 - 12:16 AM

Interesting idea but I'm afraid that when we have the capacity of near-speed of light travel aging wouldn't be that big of a problem, actually my guess is we would have immortality long before interstelar travel.

With all probability yes, but still, such sub - optimal and wacky scenarios are always worth considering, it's an exercise. Like for example if there happened some serious revival of religion in the Western world ( ex. thanks to Muslims ) that hindered ( but not stopped entirely ) parts of scientific research, then we could assume that the fight with aging would be among them, but space engineering perhaps not ( because it isn't "unnatural", right ? and also a way to solve overpopulation that religious people wouldn't have a problem with, space research could be even sped up because of this ).

So in such situation it would be a very reasonable option, if indeed we had the near light-speed propulsion already, to go for exile on that time ship and start "making" some time to spare for you, so that the slowdown of Earth's science would spoil your chances of reaching immortality the least possible magnitude. Besides... this image is just so geekishly cool !

Edited by chris w, 30 May 2010 - 12:41 AM.


#7 Alex Libman

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 566 posts
  • 0
  • Location:New Jersey, USA

Posted 30 May 2010 - 09:17 AM

That's my whole point - you might not need any interstellar travel or any Star Trek tech to benefit from time dilation, you just need to keep accelerating. Of course I know that I know nothing about physics, which is why I'm waiting for someone here to debunk the feasibility of this idea, but it does seem possible based on the little that I know. Most if not all of the tech should be available within the 21st century.

The ISS might cost "€100 billion over 30 years", but much of that cost is R&D that wouldn't need to be done again, unrelated science experiments, shuttling people back and forth, and inevitable government inefficiency / corruption. By the middle of the century, a private sector project with just 1/10th the funds would be able to build a luxurious space habitat with on-board food gardens, super-efficient water / soil recycling, and everything else you need for long-term survival in space. That space habitat would look somewhat like a butterfly with humongous solar sails.

In space there's almost no friction to eat up your inertia, so "keeping the engine running" means you keep going faster and faster. The space habitat in a properly controlled orbit around the sun would be accelerated by: (1) the gravity of the sun, but unlike the planets it could position itself to gain acceleration with every loop, (2) its solar sails, and (3) external man-made "helper" solar satellites that have humongous mirrors to concentrate sunlight into laser beams directed at the habitat's sails, making it go ever-faster. The billionaires on-board will eventually find real-time audio / video communications with Earth bothersome because people on earth will sound like chipmunks, while the billionaires will sound ssssllllooowwww, although non-real-time communication should work just fine, and they would be able to use the same Internet as everybody else: download the latest movies, post on Web forums, etc. This means the billionaires will watch their stock market profits accumulate in accelerated time, and use ever-more of their profits to build ever-more "helper" satellites to push them ever-faster.

Of course there is a limit to how fast / how long they'll want to go at it, especially on this first-generation space habitat, because they will be cut off from earth for anything except communications and lasers directed at their sails - they might have programmable surgery robots and equipment to synthesize a wide array of medicine on-board, but they can't have everything. So at some point they may decide to change their orbit around the sun and use their sails to decelerate, which would take as much time if not for the advances in the "helper" satellites, in order to visit Earth and experience the advances of the elapsed time in person. Or, more likely, visiting Earth in person will seem like irrational sentimentality given that it would cost them billions of dollars in velocity, and visiting the Earth on the holodeck is almost as good. What is more likely is that they wouldn't want to decelerate, but instead hop aboard a next generation space habitat - a whole city of billionaires with all sorts of new technologies aboard, who would be able to use newer propulsion technologies to accelerate to match the first habitat's velocity in a fraction of the time, and then accelerate further to travel forward in time ever faster, until they can hop aboard a third generation habitat and beyond!

The subsequent generations of habitats will almost certainly be modular, with different modules being launched at different times, perhaps using different means of acceleration, and joining together when they reach compatible velocity to benefit from the economy of scale. Our first-generation billionaires will soon (especially in their perception of time) be joined by their children and (great*X)grandchildren from earth, and they will soon be joined by people who are mere millionaires as acceleration technology becomes cheaper. Each module would be privately owned (most likely by a family corporation), and have its own system of governance, and since presence on any particular module will be voluntary this swarm of space modules spinning around the sun will be a prime example of Anarcho-Capitalism in action.

Some modules may decide to slingshot out of our solar system to check out the neighboring star systems, but curiosity aside there would be little benefit for doing so, because this solar system has everything that we need, and being several light-years away from the Internet connectivity with the rest of civilization would be seen as the worst form of poverty! It is more likely that neighboring solar systems will be visited by robotic probes, but discovery of earth-like planets would be yawned at (though some tree-hugging hippies will scrape up enough money to send self-replicating robots there to set up the industrial base for terraforming). The odds of us finding anything useful in the nearby stars is quite low. Too bad we don't have any super-massive black holes in our neighborhood - now that's how you travel to the future in style! :|<

Edited by Alex Libman, 30 May 2010 - 09:46 AM.


#8 Alex Libman

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 566 posts
  • 0
  • Location:New Jersey, USA

Posted 30 May 2010 - 05:19 PM

Of course... Posted Image ... so, speaking in Python:

>>> from math import *
>>> c = 299792458.0  # speed of light, meters per second
>>> def f(v): return sqrt(1-v**2/c**2)
>>> def f10 (mult_c): print '%.4f c: 10 years in %2.5f' % (mult_c,10*f(c*mult_c))

>>> for x in range (0, 10): f10(x/10.0)
0.0000 c: 10 years in 10.000000
0.1000 c: 10 years in  9.949874
0.2000 c: 10 years in  9.797959
0.3000 c: 10 years in  9.539392
0.4000 c: 10 years in  9.165151
0.5000 c: 10 years in  8.660254
0.6000 c: 10 years in  8.000000
0.7000 c: 10 years in  7.141428
0.8000 c: 10 years in  6.000000
0.9000 c: 10 years in  4.358899

>>> for x in range (91, 100): f10(x/100.0)
0.9100 c: 10 years in  4.146082
0.9200 c: 10 years in  3.919184
0.9300 c: 10 years in  3.675595
0.9400 c: 10 years in  3.411744
0.9500 c: 10 years in  3.122499
0.9600 c: 10 years in  2.800000
0.9700 c: 10 years in  2.431049
0.9800 c: 10 years in  1.989975
0.9900 c: 10 years in  1.410674

>>> for x in range (991, 1000): f10(x/1000.0)
0.9910 c: 10 years in  1.338619
0.9920 c: 10 years in  1.262379
0.9930 c: 10 years in  1.181144
0.9940 c: 10 years in  1.093801
0.9950 c: 10 years in  0.998749
0.9960 c: 10 years in  0.893532
0.9970 c: 10 years in  0.774016
0.9980 c: 10 years in  0.632139
0.9990 c: 10 years in  0.447102

for x in range (9991, 10000): f10(x/10000.0)
0.9991 c: 10 years in  0.424169
0.9992 c: 10 years in  0.399920
0.9993 c: 10 years in  0.374100
0.9994 c: 10 years in  0.346358
0.9995 c: 10 years in  0.316188
0.9996 c: 10 years in  0.282814
0.9997 c: 10 years in  0.244931
0.9998 c: 10 years in  0.199990
0.9999 c: 10 years in  0.141418

You're not going to start feeling benefits for a long, long time as you accelerate, but then... whooosh! :-D

That 0.9999 c is faster than you'd want to go anyways, because 10 years in just 51.65 days won't give you enough time to keep up with news from Earth, you know, to react in case the stock market crashes or whatnot... :|<

Edited by Alex Libman, 30 May 2010 - 05:40 PM.


#9 CryoBurger

  • Guest
  • 78 posts
  • 1

Posted 02 June 2010 - 10:37 AM

"Wow, I want a spaceship, then I will come back in 100 earth years and be immortal" slight drawback: Get a spaceship

Actually the slight drawback is that you actually believe people are going to attain immortality in 100 years? LOL ....

-CB-

#10 Alex Libman

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 566 posts
  • 0
  • Location:New Jersey, USA

Posted 02 June 2010 - 10:31 PM

The great thing about flying around the sun instead of far away from it (in addition to using its gravity and solar sail for additional acceleration) is that you can still communicate with Earth - not in real time, of course, because you'd be talking / thinking / etc much slower than the earthlings, but downloading messages via some sort of a variable-frequency laser would still be possible. That way you can read up the latest immortality tech news and decide when it makes sense to begin slowing down.

Of course if you knew for sure you wouldn't want to come back or communicate with Earth for a very, very long time, you could near-lightspeed your way to the nearest black hole, which is 1600 light years away - that is how much time would pass to get there at the speed of light from earth's point of view, but in your experience of time it would be faster. The problem is that you'd have to accelerate to almost the speed of light almost instantly, otherwise you wouldn't live long enough to get anywhere close. A few loops around that baby and you can come back to visit Earth in 1,000,000 A.D. - but that's like playing "Russian Roulette" because you don't know what'll happen by then. :)

Edited by Alex Libman, 02 June 2010 - 10:47 PM.


#11 PWAIN

  • Guest
  • 1,288 posts
  • 241
  • Location:Melbourne

Posted 03 June 2010 - 04:55 AM

I would have thought you could create a gravity slingshot with the sun and then fling yourself to jupiter to gravity slingshot towards the sun and rinse and repeat many times. As you slingshot from the sun you may also use a sail to speed yourself up a bit more and as you head towards the sun, you could fire up an ion drive to speed yourself up some more. Of course you would need a big garage to build it in. :p

Stick it on top of a commercial rocket and you are right to go....

Anyone with a few million err billion...ok make that trillion $$ to spare and no Zimbabwe dollars won't do. :)

Hmmm, liquid nitrogen is sounding better and better....

#12 Alex Libman

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 566 posts
  • 0
  • Location:New Jersey, USA

Posted 04 June 2010 - 04:41 AM

Jupitermass is only 0.0954% of Solmass, so it's probably not worth swinging around it because the time you spend going that far out is time you don't spend making more loops around the sun, using the sails, etc. Having on-board fuel is a lame idea, because it increases your mass and there's only so much you can take with you, so it's much better to have "helper satellites" accelerate you with solar mirrors / lasers like I said. Another advantage of external accelerators is more of them can be added as time passes, utilizing the latest technologies as they are discovered. (Antimatter explosions? Breadcrumb trail of artificial black holes? Quantum foam tunnel through the sun's corona?)

There's no reason to wait for any of those things to be developed to begin accelerating now. Before the relativistic phenomena begin to gradually take effect things are easy - if you accelerate at 1g (to simulate Earth gravity on-board) for 1 year, you will be traveling within 97% of the speed of light without those effects ((299792458 / (9.80665 * 60 * 60 * 24 * 365.242374) = 0.968735306)). And 1g ain't much if you have a big enough mirror array close enough to the sun!

Sure, this is going to cost a lot of money, but if you're a billionaire it is the most logical thing to invest in, especially since the space-related technologies you develop will benefit so many other industries as well (ex. space energy, tourism, communications, mining, manufacturing, etc). And maybe traveling to the future to reach immortality is a nice possible benefit on the side. The technological investments will help pay the way - when traveling to the future, the time value of money is your best friend. :-D

Sure beats taking a blind leap of faith that someone will de-ice your sorry cryonic butt without any cell damage or loss of identity, IMHO.

Edited by Alex Libman, 04 June 2010 - 04:48 AM.


#13 Alex Libman

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 566 posts
  • 0
  • Location:New Jersey, USA

Posted 04 August 2010 - 10:01 PM

Ooh, I just noticed that the new forum software added syntax highlighting to my little code snippet above - that's awesome! :cool:

(Yes, just an excuse to "necro" / "bump" a good thread.)

#14 vog

  • Guest
  • 17 posts
  • 7
  • Location:earth, I guess

Posted 05 August 2010 - 01:21 PM

Ooh, I just noticed that the new forum software added syntax highlighting to my little code snippet above - that's awesome! :cool:

(Yes, just an excuse to "necro" / "bump" a good thread.)

Going back to the time dilation idea and speeding around our sun to eliminate aging and subsequent death as we now have -- I just found your posting and think it's a great idea. But I am an impatient sort. Even getting this spaceship is a problem for us.
So, what can offer promise right now?

I was into cryonics as a means of survival, but then got to thinking about major catastrophic existential events, either human caused or like meteor collisions, destroying our planet, with every cryonics facility and DNA sample blow to space dust. I'm thinking that what we really have currently available to us is a survival of self based on preserving the pattern that we are and preserving our memories (or resurrecting and recreating them). I'm seeing men like Ray Kurzweil more and more "hanging out" at the Terasem foundation's events and conferences. For me, a follower, this is like a hint at where to go for survival perhaps. I'm 66 now and can't really afford the small chance that cryonics can save me a while. I pay too much now for my funding and can't afford it much longer. So, why not take the less costly means available to us? That means does possibly neglect the saving of our biological bodies, but then such bodies are so less than perfect that I don't even mind that. A lot of our physical body's design is an evolutionary flaw, poor and dysfunctional as I see it ( examples: teeth, prostate, etc.). For me survival is keeping our self intact. This requires some agreement as to what actually constitutes the "self". I think this consideration well worth the effort. If we are wanting to save something here -- this being the "cryonics" forum -- then we should decide and define what it is we are to actually save.
So, to conclude, I believe that cryonics has now become an archaic and obsolete procedure of emergency medicine. It has had the most wonderful people working in it's cause and they will always be loved and appreciated. It might even still have some usefulness, although relatively short lived, for those who can afford it. But there are available to us right now other means for survival that seem to have much better possibilities of working.


#15 Reno

  • Guest
  • 584 posts
  • 37
  • Location:Somewhere

Posted 05 August 2010 - 05:28 PM

How about getting a one man satellite with solar sails that can withstand the enormous pressures created from a solar flare. Spend a year getting out close enough to the sun and wait for a flare to erupt and push you back to earth. The flares send out plasma which can get to earth in about half a day, depending on your perspective :).

Some CMEs take two days to traverse the roughly 93 million miles between Sun and Earth. The most powerful solar flare in modern times occurred last Nov. 4. It was not directed at Earth, so its associated CME took about 24 hours to arrive and the effects were limited. But it was the fastest CME on record, moving at 6 million mph (2,700 kilometers per second). It would have hit within 15 hours had it been aimed at the planet.



#16 Reno

  • Guest
  • 584 posts
  • 37
  • Location:Somewhere

Posted 05 August 2010 - 05:35 PM

Closer to what is probably though, I would like to see research being done to identify the dna triggers for hibernation in mammals. I identify the triggers and use a combination of retrovirus and breeding to exploit it. That seems to be the safest way to pass the years. Slow down metabolism, and sleep through 20 years.

#17 N.T.M.

  • Guest
  • 640 posts
  • 120
  • Location:Reno, NV

Posted 06 August 2010 - 08:49 AM

but in theory, a great alternative because I sure would like to forego the "dying" part that is unfortunately a precursor to cryopreservation


It's that cessation of mind that's scary. From your perspective though there'd be perfect continuity. As soon as your consciousness is suspended, relative to you, it's immediately returned, no matter how great the time span. Strange to think about.

#18 chris w

  • Guest
  • 740 posts
  • 261
  • Location:Cracow, Poland

Posted 06 August 2010 - 01:14 PM



but in theory, a great alternative because I sure would like to forego the "dying" part that is unfortunately a precursor to cryopreservation


It's that cessation of mind that's scary. From your perspective though there'd be perfect continuity. As soon as your consciousness is suspended, relative to you, it's immediately returned, no matter how great the time span. Strange to think about.


Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

;)

#19 Luna

  • Guest, F@H
  • 2,528 posts
  • 66
  • Location:Israel

Posted 06 August 2010 - 02:11 PM

@@.. like other said: get a space ship? travel that fast? will we be immortal on earth in 100 years? I hate this universe as I know it atm (as in, hate dying and my low chance of living forever):(

#20 Luke Parrish

  • Guest
  • 140 posts
  • 31
  • Location:Salem, OR

Posted 06 August 2010 - 08:17 PM

I could be wrong, but I think suspended animation (i.e. the no-damage kind of cryonics) will be available much sooner than anything approaching a way to get close to the speed of light. And hibernation tech is likely to be much sooner than that.

#21 bgwowk

  • Guest
  • 1,715 posts
  • 125

Posted 08 August 2010 - 07:22 AM

Time dilation by high speed travel is difficult. Time dilation by high speed loitering is more difficult still.

First of all, forget any plans to dwell within the solar system or use power collected from the sun. Time dilation by a mere factor of 2 requires traveling at 86% the speed of light. A 360 degree turn at that speed at one gee acceleration would take more than a year. The turning radius would be almost a light year.

The reaction mass and energy requirements to sustain one gee accelerations for periods of years are so onerous as to require most of the ship's mass to be antimatter (and matter to react it with) in some kind of photon drive. Assuming antimatter could be produced with 100% efficiency, producing one kilogram of antimatter would require 9E16 joules = 250 billion kilowatt hours = 25 billion dollars per kilogram at present electricity prices. Multiply by the mass of your ship and number of years you wish to loiter near the speed of light for the energy cost of your mission. Compare to the cost of neuropreservation. :)

Straight out-and-back missions are more efficient than loitering for achieving time dilation. If you don't mind traveling in a straight line, you can coast as long as you want in a time-dilated state without continuously burning fuel. Unless you put yourself into orbit near the event horizon of a black hole, high speed loitering is the worst possible way to achieve time dilation.

Of course, any type of travel near the speed of light requires technology and energy far beyond the capacity of present human civilization. Perhaps someday energy greater than all the power plants on Earth will be harnessed by the push of a single human finger. But that day won't be soon.

#22 Paul Crowley

  • Guest
  • 18 posts
  • 37
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 10 August 2010 - 07:52 AM

Charlie Stross's essay on the impossibility of human interstellar travel would seem relevant here.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users