110 replies to this topic

[kenj]

Tom A, I agree with your points re: Longevinex being a decent pick, - still, I sense Longevinex is of more help to the folk who just want the easy all-in-one package, not interfering too much with daily life. When taking many other nutrients to create the ultimate synergetic shield against aging, I'm fine with trans-resveratrol from a sole source, completing the bigger picture, - not necessarily packed in a sparkling, life-is-a-box-of-chocolate-mimicking box...
I'm not concerned of any *commonly* used compound, completely nuking resv. Anyone?
BTW, besides LEF's resv product, Doctor's Best also carries a 100mg trans-resv pill (also including the beneficial polyphenols).

[curious_sle]

Yes, if you could translate I would really appreciate it.

okies, crude :-) but as a service:

"
Stability

Resveratrol distinguishes itself through stability. In oposition to this marketing driven statements allege Resveratrol to be a unstable molecule susceptible to evaporation and oxidation. This is chemically speaking untrue.

Transresveratrol's boilingpoint is at 260°C and it's meltingpoint lies at 489°C. One speaks of Low volatile compounds from vapor pressure smaller then 0.1 Pascal, substances greater then 70 Pascal are considered lightly volatile. With a vapor preassure of 4.5x10 to the power of 8 Resveratrol lies considerably below this treshold. With increasing molecular weight (dimere and oligomere resveratrols) vapor pressure further decreases. (boy the guy uses some odd german :-) )

Moreover after heating redwine for 24 hours the ammount of trans-reveratrol in residue is identical to starting conditions demonstrating that even after prolonged cooking and oxidation resveratrol stays stable and low volatile.
"

Ups, translating (especially before going to bed) in a field where you don't know technical language is no walk in the park. Sorry if it's unintelligible.

[xanadu]

This is what I've been saying all along about rsv stability. When they came out with their BS about it having to be processed under nitrogen or it would degrade, I pointed out that the evidence showed it to be very stable just based on what we already knew. I called it a marketing ***** even though many jumped on the Longevex bandwagon based on the scare tactics. It seems I have been proven right once again.

[health_nutty]

Awesome, even better stability that I hoped!

Yes, if you could translate I would really appreciate it.

okies, crude :-) but as a service:

"
Stability

Resveratrol distinguishes itself through stability. In oposition to this marketing driven statements allege Resveratrol to be a unstable molecule susceptible to evaporation and oxidation. This is chemically speaking untrue.

Transresveratrol's boilingpoint is at 260°C and it's meltingpoint lies at 489°C. One speaks of Low volatile compounds from vapor pressure smaller then 0.1 Pascal, substances greater then 70 Pascal are considered lightly volatile. With a vapor preassure of 4.5x10 to the power of 8 Resveratrol lies considerably below this treshold. With increasing molecular weight (dimere and oligomere resveratrols) vapor pressure further decreases. (boy the guy uses some odd german :-) )

Moreover after heating redwine for 24 hours the ammount of trans-reveratrol in residue is identical to starting conditions demonstrating that even after prolonged cooking and oxidation resveratrol stays stable and low volatile.
"

Ups, translating (especially before going to bed) in a field where you don't know technical language is no walk in the park. Sorry if it's unintelligible.

[tom a]

When they came out with their BS about it having to be processed under nitrogen or it would degrade, I pointed out that the evidence showed it to be very stable just based on what we already knew. I called it a marketing ***** even though many jumped on the Longevex bandwagon based on the scare tactics.

I wonder if that isn't pretty much true for the Orchid product as well.

Yes, it has a nice pedigree because it happened to be used in the studies we know about. But of course for such studies pure transresveratrol were crucial for the credibililty of the science, to eliminate as much as possible confounding factors.

Problem is, we (and for that matter the mice) confound things whenever we eat anything else or take other supplements. How do we know that those other items are not going to affect how the trans-reseveratrol operates?

And I of course understand the claim that 50% transresveratrol products contain other substances, and that that might affect the operation of the transresveratrol.

But is there any really good reason to believe that those other substances are any more likely to create such an adverse effect than the hundreds or thousands of other substances we ingest in our diet? I mean, we apparently consume about 25-50mg of quercetin in our diet per day, and some people worry that quercetin may neutralize resveratrol. Why imagine the substances in the 50% product are somehow worse?

I guess I wonder why people would pay such a premium for the Orchid product, given that it is at cheapest about $3 per gm, and the 50% product is only $1 per gm of transresveratrol.

(I should say, though, that for all that, I'm still pretty tempted to plunk down some money for the Orchid product!)

[shadowrun]

tom a

I definately agree with your statements - I just wanted to throw a wrench out there in case someone hasn't read some of the other threads

Quercitin may or may not be a great addition...IMO we might as well get whatever Resveratrol brand we want and work with it in the most intelligent way possible

Longevinex is rather expensive - Why pay a premium if it isn't optimal?
Why not mix it with whatever you want?

All we really know at this point is that
- We don't need the special caps
- Oil or Lecithin is a great addition as Resveratrol is soluble in fat

The Jury is still out on Quercitin, Dosage and timing

Edited by shadowrun, 13 February 2007 - 01:20 AM.

[olderbutwiser]

<snip>
- Oil or Lecithin is a great addition as Resveratrol is soluble in fat
<snip>

It doesn't appear to be nearly as lipid soluble as has been represented, at least in a "kitchen setting".
I have played around with Orchid sourced ResV in various "dietary solvents"
It does not dissolve to a great degree in EVOO or Carleson's Fish oil even when warmed to 130F
Trying to dissolve 100mg of ResV into 15ml of either oil results in the majority settling out. Rough guesstimate is that no more than a few mg/ml solubility in common dietary oils even with warming and prolonged agitation.

As a comparison, CoQ10 powder will fairly easily dissolve 100mg into 15ml of fish oil. CoQ10 is known - or at least hyped - to have absorb-ability problems if not mixed in oil, yet is much more soluble in oil than ResV.

Just as a point of comparison, from eyeballing in the kitchen
ResV is insoluble in warm water
ResV is insoluble in warm distilled vinegar
ResV is moderately soluble in straight vodka = 40% EtOH

I did my kitchen tests out of curiosity and I am the first to state that they demonstrate nothing towards any ResV dosing methods or recommendations. Just from playing around though, I am somewhat intrigued by the association of the "French Paradox" with wine and the lack of easy solubility of ResV in any common consumable solvent except alcohol.

OBW

[ryan1113]

Stability

Transresveratrol's boilingpoint is at 260°C and it's meltingpoint lies at 489°C.

Interesting how it boils before it even melts! Quite a unique substance indeed! [thumb]

[shadowrun]

Thanks OBW [thumb]

Damn...Every day I learn something new
And every day I learn that I was wrong about something that I thought I knew [tung]

It doesn't appear to be nearly as lipid soluble as has been represented, at least in a "kitchen setting".
I have played around with Orchid sourced ResV in various "dietary solvents"
It does not dissolve to a great degree in EVOO or Carleson's Fish oil even when warmed to 130F
Trying to dissolve 100mg of ResV into 15ml of either oil results in the majority settling out. Rough guesstimate is that no more than a few mg/ml solubility in common dietary oils even with warming and prolonged agitation.

As a comparison, CoQ10 powder will fairly easily dissolve 100mg into 15ml of fish oil. CoQ10 is known - or at least hyped - to have absorb-ability problems if not mixed in oil, yet is much more soluble in oil than ResV.

Just as a point of comparison, from eyeballing in the kitchen
ResV is insoluble in warm water
ResV is insoluble in warm distilled vinegar
ResV is moderately soluble in straight vodka = 40% EtOH
I did my kitchen tests out of curiosity and I am the first to state that they demonstrate nothing towards any ResV dosing methods or recommendations. Just from playing around though, I am somewhat intrigued by the association of the "French Paradox" with wine and the lack of easy solubility of ResV in any common consumable solvent except alcohol.

OBW

[marqueemoon]

Why does solubility make a difference in terms of how bioavailable it is?

[health_nutty]

Why does solubility make a difference in terms of how bioavailable it is?

I haven't seen any evidence that it makes any difference. I don't know why people are obsessing over the solubility.

[niner]

I haven't seen any evidence that it makes any difference. I don't know why people are obsessing over the solubility.

If a compound can't get solubilized at all, it will probably remain in its initial crystalline form, transit through the gut and be on its way... sort of like eating sand. I don't think that is the case with resveratrol though. Here is a study that shows little effect from different matrices. Presumably the resveratrol was given as a suspension in the grape and vegetable juice; it probably dissolved in the wine, though I've not read the paper. Too bad they didn't try an oil matrix. They did say "some significant matrix effects were observed for the serum polyphenol concentrations"... and these effects were small? Probably... but at any rate no matrix had much of an effect on urinary excretion. Their conclusion regarding the conjugates is an important one.

Clin Biochem. 2003 Feb;36(1):79-87.  Links
Absorption of three wine-related polyphenols in three different matrices by healthy subjects.Goldberg DM, Yan J, Soleas GJ.
Department of Laboratory Medicine and Pathobiology, University of Toronto, ON, Canada M5G 1L5. david.goldberg@utoronto.ca

BACKGROUND: Despite their powerful biologic activities conducive to protection against atherosclerosis, cancer and inflammatory diseases demonstrated in vitro, there is considerable doubt whether the polyphenolic constituents present in red wine and other dietary components are effective in vivo. OBJECTIVE: We have tested the absorptive efficiency of three of these constituents (trans-resveratrol, [+]-catechin and quercetin) when given orally to healthy human subjects in three different media. DESIGN: Twelve healthy males aged 25 to 45 were randomly assigned to three different groups consuming orally one of the following polyphenols: trans-resveratrol, 25 mg/70 kg; [+]-catechin 25 mg/70 kg; quercetin 10 mg/70 kg. Each polyphenol was randomly administered at 4-week intervals in three different matrices: white wine (11.5% ethanol), grape juice, and vegetable juice/homogenate. Blood was collected at zero time and at four intervals over the first four hours after consumption; urine was collected at zero time and for the following 24-h. The sums of free and conjugated polyphenols were measured in blood serum and urine by a gas-chromatographic method. RESULTS: All three polyphenols were present in serum and urine predominantly as glucuronide and sulfate conjugates, reaching peak concentrations in the former around 30-min after consumption. The free polyphenols accounted for 1.7 to 1.9% (trans-resveratrol), 1.1 to 6.5% ([+]-catechin) and 17.2 to 26.9% (quercetin) of the peak serum concentrations. The absorption of trans-resveratrol was the most efficient as judged by peak serum concentration, area-under-the curve (4 h) and urinary 24-h excretion (16-17% of dose consumed). [+]-Catechin was the poorest by these criteria (urine 24-h excretion 1.2%-3.0% of dose consumed), with quercetin being intermediate (urine 24-h excretion 2.9%-7.0% of dose consumed). Some significant matrix effects were observed for the serum polyphenol concentrations, but in the case of urine no matrix promoted significantly higher excretion than the other two. CONCLUSIONS: The absorption of these three polyphenols is broadly equivalent in aqueous and alcoholic matrices but, at peak concentrations of 10 to 40 nmol/L, is inadequate to permit circulating concentrations of 5 to 100 micromol/L consistent with in vitro biologic activity. The voluminous literature reporting powerful in vitro anticancer and antiinflammatory effects of the free polyphenols is irrelevant, given that they are absorbed as conjugates.

PMID: 12554065 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[shadowrun]

I think most of the non technical people assume or confuse solubility with bioavailability -

It seems like it makes sense - (Wouldn't it need to dissolve before it could become Bioavailable?) [wis]

I realize now that may not be the case [thumb]

[niner]

It occurs to me that being phenolic, resveratrol is a weak acid. In neutral or acidic solutions, it will remain protonated, (electrostatically neutral) and thus be insoluble. However, in a basic environment, it will deprotonate and take on a negative charge, which will quickly pull it into solution. I don't know the pKa of resveratrol offhand, but my guess is that it ionizes once it gets into the gut.

[shadowrun]

It occurs to me that being phenolic, resveratrol is a weak acid. In neutral or acidic solutions, it will remain protonated, (electrostatically neutral) and thus be insoluble. However, in a basic environment, it will deprotonate and take on a negative charge, which will quickly pull it into solution. I don't know the pKa of resveratrol offhand, but my guess is that it ionizes once it gets into the gut

Niner -

Fearfrost indicated in another post that consuming the Resveratrol with an Alkaline substance (green tea) could increase its solubility...
I assume this might increase its bioavailability?

[niner]

Fearfrost indicated in another post that consuming the Resveratrol with an Alkaline substance (green tea) could increase its solubility...
I assume this might increase its bioavailability?

Resveratrol powder might disolve in the tea if it were reasonably alkaline, but if you swallow a pill, the acidity of the stomach will probably overwhelm the tea. Even if you disolve resveratrol in alkaline solution or ethanol, and drink that, it may come back out of solution in the stomach. I don't think that matters though as my guess is that it gets ionized in the gut at any rate, and that's how it gets into solution. It doesn't last long as free resveratrol anion though, as it is rapidly sulfated and/or glucuronidated in the liver and gut. That is what causes the poor bioavailability. As one way of dealing with the bioavailability problem, Sirtris has acetylated the 4' hydroxyl. This compound is not active in vitro, but in vivo it works better than resveratrol. The hypothesis is that it gets into cells without getting sulfated, then an intracellular esterase cleaves the acetyl group yielding free resveratrol in the cell. Some of us have speculated that this 4'-OAc resveratrol is SRT501.

I thought about trying to acetylate resveratrol myself- it should just be a matter of reacting it with acetyl chloride, but you would want to leave at least one phenolic OH free so you didn't end up with a really insoluble compound. That might not be so easy. For the time being I'll just take more resveratrol.

[OutOfThyme]

Also, don't take green tea. Green tea's EGCG has shown to inhibit the SIRT1 longevity gene that Trans-Resveratrol activates.

Mirian, do you have a cite for this? I hope this isn't so. I drink green tea all the time.

[rapier]

Mirian, do you have a cite for this? I hope this isn't so. I drink green tea all the time.

Relating to this, how long do these two, green tea and resveratrol, have access to each other after ingestion. In other words what windows are required to prevent assignation between them. I say windows because of order or other factors.

My interest in supplements is recent, since I was diagnosed with prostate cancer(biopsy) July 2006, and don't remember any mention of timing between dosages of any supplements to prevent negative or neutralized results.

[tintinet]

There is a Journal saying that Resveratrol is preserved better if it's with Grape Seed Extract.

Really? Can we see a peer reviewed Pubmed referenced article citation, please?

There is a Journal saying that Quercetin helps Resveratrol absorb:

Peer reviewed Pubmed referenced citation, please?

Don't take fish oil. Reserch oil shows it helps with people who already have heart disease but encourage atrial fibrillation in healthy people.

Ain't seen this one. Gotta citation from a peer reviewed Pubmed referenced article?

A French study has associated high ALA (type of fat from Flaxseed & Walnuts) intake to a one third lower risk of heart attacks.

Ya but may increase risk for prostate carcinoma.

Also, don't take green tea. Green tea's EGCG has shown to inhibit the SIRT1 longevity gene that Trans-Resveratrol activates.

Same old question: citation, please?


Thanks!

[mirian]

Plant Omega 3's like in Flaxseed & Walnuts (ALA) doesn't contribute to prostate cancer. First of all, about 80% of all men by the age of 80 have some degree of prostate cancer. It's a very slow progressing cancer. Men usually die with it rather than from it !

Only a fool would take Flaxseed oil without lignans. Lignans are proven to be anticancer. Of course, when removing the healthiest part of Flaxseed then Flaxseed becomes bad. 50mg or more of Flaxseed lignans a day helps prevent men from losing their hair.

Just like fiber, if you take the naturally occurring IP6 also known as phytic acid or inositol hexaphosphate out of the fiber. It no longer helps to prevent colon cancer. Because your removing the healthiest part being in the bran containing the IP6. Hence, why whole grains are healthier.

Edited by mirian, 13 June 2007 - 08:01 AM.

[mirian]

It's almost common sense really that green tea's EGCG which is well known for increasing people's metabolic rate therefore helping them burn more calories and lose weight would be the opposite of CR-Calorie Restriction.

Calorie Restriction slows the metabolic rate by lowering circulating levels of T3 by an unknown mechanism.[Scientific American March 15 2007]

Green Tea does help one avoid cancer thereby making them live longer not in your potential just by staying alive with disease. But, Resveratrol & CR help increase your longevity potential 120 years instead of 100 for example and help prevent cancer, etc.

[wayside]

Everything is about balance. This is a link showing how Longevinex is a scam:

How does this show that Longevinex is a scam? By the numbers on that chart, Longevinex has the most ResV and the closest to what it is labelled to have, compared to the other unnamed products.

[thenaturalstep]

Ups a mistake ... wrong topic ...

[MoodyBlue]

My interest in supplements is recent, since I was diagnosed with prostate cancer(biopsy) July 2006, and don't remember any mention of timing between dosages of any supplements to prevent negative or neutralized results.

For your prostate cancer it would be wise to take a supplement with Beta-sitosterol. Studies have shown that it has very strong anti-cancer and anti-tumor properties (including for colon cancer). It certainly helps me quite a bit with my BPH. There are many formulas out there, many of which have mixed phytosterols such as this one (Maximum Prostate) which contains a sterol that most of the other formulas don't (Brassicasterol): Webpage. There are also specialized formulas for breast cancer containing beta-sitosterol. Here's a PubMed study on betasitosterol and breast cancer: Webpage

Edited by moodyblue, 05 August 2007 - 09:37 PM.

[mirian]

Scam as in costing way more money for less trans resveratrol. Compare Country Life's Resveratrol Plus only about 20cents per 100mg Trans resveratrol Vcap on iherb.com Longevinex is at least 5 times the price

[Anthony_Loera]

Mirian,

you can find "Country Life" a bit less on the pricewatch list here:

http://www.imminst.o...&f=6&t=15059&s=

Anthony

[mirian]

info@country-life.com

subject: Same Resveratrol Plus formula but 98% standardized knotweed ?

Maybe, if they get enough of them from hundreds or thousands they will follow through.

[edward]

I'd settle for 80% extract product. Just enough to get the emodin down to reasonable levels while not breaking the bank.

[maxwatt]

I'd settle for 80% extract product. Just enough to get the emodin down to reasonable levels while not breaking the bank.

I can get 75% extract with the emodin content under 1%. If enough people were interested, I could even get it capped and bottled.

[dolphin1959]

I was made aware of what I believe is absolutely the best source of resveratrol by someone else who did not like the hype of Longevinex. I need to tell you that my interested in resveratrol is NOT for its anti-aging property. I am a multiple myeloma patient. Another mm patients told me about this. If you do web search for myeloma & resveratrol you will find a very long article about its anti-cancer properties, against other cancers in people but only, so far, against myeloma in the test tube. We have the most active cancer support group on the internet. Among them is a brilliant cardiologist who told me that he would take it again if he could find a decentr source. I posted that I indeed had found a source and was suspended from this acor listserv as it was seen as advertising. Several people told me they thought it was a scam. I do NOT work for the company. I thought wow..maybe they are right. In fact, the one person who especially said this wrote to the head of the company, and this man, how has a PhD in molecular biology answered every single one of his questions. I have been incredibly impressed with this man and his company. Also, he offered to extend a discount to me as a cancer patient, and to do the same for any other cancer patient. If you do not know, the prices of cancer drugs are so high, even some insured people cannot afford the co-pays. I will only post all of this if someone tells me it will be allowed. It might be seen as some type of commercial advertisement. I assure you it is not. Like most of you, I just did not know where to get any. My cardiologist friend told me MOST resveratrol sold is worthless because of oxidation. I thought great--I had wasted all that money. I did not know if the Longevinex I had been taking was also worthless. But I have seen it implied that this is what Dr. Sinclair takes himself, so Longevinex does not seem to have this problem. However, this other brand has 6 to times as much trans-resveratrol in it. It is undergoing testing at Consumer Labs.
The man makes no promises regarding resveratrol and cancer or aging. This was my idea--not his. There is NOT cure for myleoma, and the drugs we have to take all have bad side effects. If nothing else, if I can only reduce my dependency on these drugs, that will be enough. I cannot possibly tell you how incredibly impressed I was with this man, but his company is relatively new and has had some problems getting out the problems. I have had not problems at all. If you would like, I would be glad to share his emails to me and his responses to the person who said he was a scammer. This person still says something about "if I want to believe something badly enough"..which I do not understand, as I never said once that it would do anything against mm. I thought it was very kind of the head of this company to answer every single one of his questions. Please let me know if you would like to post this information. Alex Maas. a.maas@cox.net San Diego Once again, I derive absolutely no financial benefit from this, but I have learned a lot about resveratrol from this and one other anti-aging site. Probably doubtful I would need it for that use, as 4 years ago I was told I had a prognosis of less than 3 years to live. Seems that was a little wrong, and I am now near 48. However, I cannot really expect to live more than 15 years at the most, although it seems I am beating the odds, as many myeloma patients are these days. At any rate, if you would like me to post about this, I would be glad to do so. Also, it seems according to what I read here, this should really not be allowed to be sold here according to the FDA rules, as it would not be considered a supplement but a drug because it is such high a content of trans-resveratrol per pill.