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Dealing with vestiges of religious brainwashing


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#1 Pham Nuwen

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 01:43 AM


I was raised in an extremely devout evangelical Christian home. My parents did their best to isolate my siblings and I from what they saw as corrupting and evil influences of the outside world, in all spheres: social, educational, recreational, etc... My parents always had plenty of religious literature lying around - including Creationist nonsens which they specifically bought for me when I became interested in science - but absolutely nothing to give any of us a hint that perhaps there was another point of view out there, and that perhaps we weren't dirty, shameful sinners condemned to death and hellfire by Original Sin who needed to be 'washed by the blood of the lamb' to ever attain anything approaching happiness in this life or the one they always told me awaited us after death. I was a very sensitive child, and took much of the twisted cult theology to heart - especially the part about all the unsaved going to hell to be tortured for ever and ever and ever (you get the idea). Some of my earliest memories are about sitting in church and listening to one of the all-to-regular hellfire and brimstone sermons, looking at my siblings and friends goofing off, and praying with tears in my eyes on the verge of sobbing for Jesus to do something my brother and my friends so that they wouldn't go to hell for not internalizing his "Good News". Nevertheless, I recall that I always had at least a little cognitive dissonance, despite my very childlike faith. It just didn't make sense to me that an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent God would create Adam and Eve and place them in the same garden with the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil knowing full-well in advance that they would disobey his command and eat of its fruit. Nor did it make sense that an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent being would regret creating man (indeed, I couldn't see how such a being could possibly regret anything), and drown every living being except Noah, his family and the beasts on the Ark, as a way to cleans the earth of evil, knowing in advance that evil would re-sprout ever more vigorously. By the time I was ten I was having serious doubts, but my entire worldview, indeed, my entire life was built on this religious foundation and supported by a scaffolding of fundamentalist nonsense. When I turned twelve, I'd decided that I had enough of tossing and turning at night do to the nagging uncertainty of my belief and creeping suspicion that I'd been had by the biggest confidence trick ever devised, and decided to research the matter for myself, with as much objectivity as possible, paying attention to 'the other side' as much as the one I was indoctrinated into. After two years of careful research, analysis and soul-searching, after carefully dissecting the argument of the apologists and and the skeptics, I came to the following conclusions:

1. There is absolutely nothing in the Bible that is dictated or even remotely inspired by a supernatural, or even merely super-human agency
2. The God of the Bible does not exist
3. Due to the fact that virtually every attribute assigned to God is either self-contradictory or contradicts one or more of his other alleged attributes, the God of the Bible cannot exist

I delved a little into the other monotheistic religions as well as eastern philosophy, and came away with essentially the same conclusion - none were divinely inspired, and none held the answer to life's most important questions. I became an atheist then and remain one to this day.

For a couple of years, it felt like I was adrift on a boat in the middle of the emptiest stretch of ocean on the planet - I could not anchor myself: I did not know why I was here, what, if anything, the purpose of life is, which of the victimless behaviors I was brainwashed into believing were "sinful" (premarital sex, moderate drug and alcohol use, dancing, smoking, etc.., etc..) were actually immoral or harmful, and the biggest question of all, what will happen to me when I die?

The answer to that question was rather obvious, though for the longest time I did not want to accept it. For a long while, I was nearly obsessed with death and almost incapacitated by the fear of dying. Thankfully, fate tossed me an intellectual and spiritual life-preserver in the form of transhumanism. I realized that the best thing I could do with my life was to work to abolish involuntary death for myself and as many of my fellow humans as possible.

Lately, I've been going through some rather stressful life-changes, and I find now, years after I had obsessively analyzed the argument for and against theism that I am feeling doubts again - except now the doubts are about my atheism. I find myself thinking, what if my parents are right? What if there actually is an infinitely evil supernatural monster out there who creates the vast majority of humans to send them to hell, and stoops to such nefarious deception to increase the number of the hell-bound that he creates the universe too look completely unlike the narrative in Genesis? What if? I know that these doubts are purely emotional and almost certainly caused by the strain I am under. I know there is absolutely reasonable basis for them. I know that the infinitely evil bloodthirsty demiurge hallucinated into being by psychotic bronze-age goat herders is logically impossible, and literally cannot exist. I know that these doubts are the result of abusive childhood brainwashing, because I do not find myself wondering if Allah is going to damn me to hell for rejecting the Qu'aran, nor whether I will burn in hell for the same number of years as hairs on the cows whose flesh I have eaten, as the Hindu scriptures clearly say. I know that these thoughts are completely irrational, yet for some reason, this knowledge does remarkably little to help. Is there anyone else on these forums with a fundamentalist background who's had similar experiences? Can anyone give me some advice on how to deal with this? Your input would be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Edit: I should add that one of my biggest fears, next to oblivion, is that in the face of an extreme stressor I might lose my integrity and, like the novelist Anne Rice, return to the comforting embrace of a religion which I know for a fact is false. Next to my fear of oblivion, this is my second strongest objection to death - as Nietzsche so perceptively pointed out over a hundred years ago, for a Christian, indeed, for anyone who's been brainwashed into fire-and-brimstone, death is never dignified - it's a rape of conscience when the ugly specter of eternal damnation will invariably rear its head. I don't know if I have the strength to maintain my integrity in the face of the biggest unknown. If I must lose my battle with death I want to do it on my terms; I do not want my friends' and family's last memory of me to be my praying feverishly for mercy to the most vile and despicable fictional character ever devised by man's twisted imagination.

Edited by Pham Nuwen, 03 June 2010 - 02:13 AM.


#2 eternaltraveler

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 02:21 AM

I was raised in an extremely devout evangelical Christian home.

I must say I have quite a lot of respect for those like yourself who can snap themselves out of such a deeply implanted false belief system. I can't claim the same myself. I was taught to believe in god and the bible, my parents were never that religious themselves so they never actively discouraged seeking other avenues, and they encouraged my interests in science. For me the death blow for Christianity was when I actually sat down and read the bible. I'm sorry I can't be more helpful in this regard. What i went through was a very watered down version of what you apparently went through.

For a couple of years, it felt like I was adrift on a boat in the middle of the emptiest stretch of ocean on the planet - I could not anchor myself: I did not know why I was here, what, if anything the purpose of life is, which of the victimless behaviors I was brainwashed into believing were "sinful" (pre-marital sex, moderate drug and alcohol use, dancing, smoking, etc.., etc..) were actually immoral or harmful, and the biggest question of all, what will happen to me when I die?


To be expected. It's hard to transition from a path where you believe you know all the answers, and you believe you know the purpose of being, to one where you have to find your own way and purpose is what you make it.

I had obsessively analyzed the argument for and against theism that I am feeling doubts again - except now the doubts are about my atheism


thats not a bad thing. Doubt is a good thing. Doubt everything. Why is there something instead of nothing? Perhaps it will help if you can accept that this is a question that might not be answered, at least not anytime soon. As you said yourself the god of the bible is a logical impossibility, but that doesn't do much to diminish the fear you might feel toward it. Humans aren't wired entirely rationally. Irrational fear toward any number of things is not uncommon at all. It makes perfect sense that you would fear the thing that was ingrained into you in childhood. If it is something that causes you a lot of distress there are many options on how to deal with it.

I realized that the best thing I could do with my life was to work to abolish involuntary death for myself and as many of my fellow humans as possible.


Fantastic! Welcome to imminst.
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#3 chrwe

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 03:46 AM

Lately, I've been going through some rather stressful life-changes, and I find now, years after I had obsessively analyzed the argument for and against theism that I am feeling doubts again - except now the doubts are about my atheism. I find myself thinking, what if my parents are right? What if there actually is an infinitely evil supernatural monster out there who creates the vast majority of humans to send them to hell, and stoops to such nefarious deception to increase the number of the hell-bound that he creates the universe too look completely unlike the narrative in Genesis? What if? I know that these doubts are purely emotional and almost certainly caused by the strain I am under. I know there is absolutely reasonable basis for them. I know that the infinitely evil bloodthirsty demiurge hallucinated into being by psychotic bronze-age goat herders is logically impossible, and literally cannot exist. I know that these doubts are the result of abusive childhood brainwashing, because I do not find myself wondering if Allah is going to damn me to hell for rejecting the Qu'aran, nor whether I will burn in hell for the same number of years as hairs on the cows whose flesh I have eaten, as the Hindu scriptures clearly say. I know that these thoughts are completely irrational, yet for some reason, this knowledge does remarkably little to help. Is there anyone else on these forums with a fundamentalist background who's had similar experiences? Can anyone give me some advice on how to deal with this? Your input would be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance.


Pham - I think many of us know how you feel and where you are coming from. I have death anxiety myself very badly, so I cant help you there, but I can help you with spirituality I think.

Accept that the Universe is vast and that we still dont know a lot about it. Accept that our brains are integral to our "self", but that we have not solved all riddles of consciousness yet and that ultimately, you can only know from "within" if you are "you" and what "self" is.

Accept that the God of the Bible is just as unreal as Zeus and Ra.

Accept that this does not mean that there is no room for any higher conscious being(s), only that if there are any such, they are not (as far as we can tell) directly interacting with us. There could be something going on, but we don`t know. Accept also that there could be more to consciousness than we think, there is a little evidence for it, so all hope does not need to be lost yet.

Accept that this very vague transcendental spirituality is all that remains to an intelligent person at the moment. It is cold comfort, but it is not nothing. I call it true agnosticism, its a little different from atheism.

Then work as much as you can for transhumanism, life-extension and everything else because this life is what we know and what we want! For, as Sagan has his extraterrestrial say, in this endless universe, we have only found each other. Lets work for ourselves, for all the other precious, self-aware being on this planet (and potentially on other planets). Lets work so death and oblivion do not claim our all-precious light. It is, at the moment, starting to dawn on humanity that "the third goal of the alchemists", physical immortality, could become a reality. How quick it will be depends as much on us and our work as on anyone else. And even if there is some form of afterlife (I insist that it is possible, but very very unlikely), there is no use in relying on this extremely vague possiblity, because - well, isnt this life good? It is for me :).

We can use your help, just look in the "volunteer" section here and volunteer for SENSF.

You are not alone :p

chrwe

Edited by chrwe, 03 June 2010 - 04:12 AM.


#4 John Schloendorn

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 05:04 AM

Wonderful, thanks for sharing that. Echo eternaltraveler -- doubt is a good thing. So is the feeling that we're screwed... because, that's what we are. This universe is a terrible place for a sentient creature to find itself in. Death, suffering, wherever you look. No straightforward chance to get out. Sucks. Realizing all this hurts, but it's the first step on the road to fixing it.

But hey, on the other hand, being a sentient creature at all is so unbelievably miraculously awesome -- it can easily make up for all the negative feelings caused by our adverse circumstances. Feel it, feel your power, your inner beauty. You can have the wisdom to watch and learn, patiently decipher the workings of this cold, soulless universe of which even your own body is part. Study its rules and see patterns emerge, keeping a watchful eye on your own inbuilt desire and bias. Then, you are equipped to chart the safest course forward.

You are not entirely alone on this ocean. Most of your fellow travelers are overwhelmed by the world's soulless cruelty and paddle randomly in all directions at once. They refuse to see the storm coming and sink before they ever know what hit them. I wish we had the strength to save them all. Maybe one day we will. In all this confusion, it is hard to spot others who, like you, follow a complex but very well thought out route, carefully designed to get out of here alive. You have done the right thing and started reaching out to us. You can learn from us quickly through instruction and imitation, what would take forever to learn through your own trial and error. If we get this right, we can scrape a respectable amount of ingenuity together to throw at our problem. We don't know if that's enough to win, but we do know it's enough to have some hope.

#5 shadowhawk

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 01:38 AM

Edit: I should add that one of my biggest fears, next to oblivion, is that in the face of an extreme stressor I might lose my integrity and, like the novelist Anne Rice, return to the comforting embrace of a religion which I know for a fact is false. Next to my fear of oblivion, this is my second strongest objection to death - as Nietzsche so perceptively pointed out over a hundred years ago, for a Christian, indeed, for anyone who's been brainwashed into fire-and-brimstone, death is never dignified - it's a rape of conscience when the ugly specter of eternal damnation will invariably rear its head. I don't know if I have the strength to maintain my integrity in the face of the biggest unknown. If I must lose my battle with death I want to do it on my terms; I do not want my friends' and family's last memory of me to be my praying feverishly for mercy to the most vile and despicable fictional character ever devised by man's twisted imagination.


Sounds like you are having a very hard ordeal. I have no answers for you but think your views of hell have more to do with literature than anything Biblical. I don't think you have any reason to be close to God if you don't want to. Don't worry, if there is a God, He won't force Himself on you, as I understand God. If there is no God, it will just end in hell fire as the earth ends up inside the sun. The question is not whether there is a hell but whether we can avoid going there. In the end the sun will burn out and it will get very dark and very cold. No light or even stars. What a relief. Some (the Bible) have described the deepest part of hell this way. How did these scientific images get in such an old book? Lets hope it is oblivion and we won't be there. If there is no God it won't matter if you fail in your resolve to not believe. you will win in the end.

I know this sounds kind of harsh, but at least there will be no God to deal with. Live a full life now. It is all about faith, I think.

My best wishes to you and I hope you have peace.Posted Image
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#6 tunt01

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 01:49 AM

not a fundamentalist background, but i remember sitting in religious school being told about about Jonah and The Whale... among other stories. I eventually spoke out and said, "How on earth can a guy survive inside a whale's stomach for days? It just doesn't make any sense..." Long story short, I have a lot of respect for the cultural heritage and family-oriented position of the religions in my family, but they lack scientific rigor on a few deep issues.

Facts and sunlight are the best disinfectant. Religions can be nice from a cultural heritage standpoint, and that's about it.

Edited by prophets, 04 June 2010 - 01:50 AM.


#7 N.T.M.

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 06:03 AM

In the end the sun will burn out and it will get very dark and very cold. No light or even stars. What a relief. Some (the Bible) have described the deepest part of hell this way.


You're referring to an incident unlikely to materialize for at least several million years (sort of an arbitrary number I'm throwing out, but you get the idea). When it finally does happen, I doubt we'll be stuck on Earth to experience it.

#8 Alex Libman

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 06:56 AM

A few points, hit or miss:

(1) Dealing with your parents' cultural values is the inevitable cost of being born - and an incentive to study hard, get a job as soon as you can, and try to emancipate yourself ASAP. You cannot change the reality you were born into, you can only change yourself.

(2) Isolating children from "corrupting and evil influences" is something I'm a very big fan of - my kids would be home-schooled, shielded from all pop-culture and other fictitious bullshit, study science and engineering early on, have Ayn Rand and the rest of the Anarcho-Capitalist canon memorized word-for-word, and do freelance programming / design work over the Internet by the time they're 12. There's nothing evil about raising your children in your own culture, as long as you don't interfere with their ability to take charge of their life when they're ready to do so, go through their own paradigm shifts, and establish their own values which may turn out to be very different from yours.

(3) Trying to change other people's beliefs is a noble hobby, but ultimately reality is the ultimate judge of how effective belief systems are. Maybe instead of religion a person would have turned to some other form of irrationality (ex. drugs, hedonism, criminality, depression, etc) and never settled down to raise a family. Atheism is still struggling to create a functional and stable culture - it's more important for atheists to lead by example in their own lives rather than militantly debunk the stable beliefs of others.

(4) All of the best things people like about religion can be achieved without any need for anything supernatural.

(5) Religion is psychologically addictive. Addictions take time and effort to overcome.

#9 Ghostrider

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 07:51 AM

I must say I have quite a lot of respect for those like yourself who can snap themselves out of such a deeply implanted false belief system. I can't claim the same myself. I was taught to believe in god and the bible, my parents were never that religious themselves so they never actively discouraged seeking other avenues, and they encouraged my interests in science. For me the death blow for Christianity was when I actually sat down and read the bible. I'm sorry I can't be more helpful in this regard. What i went through was a very watered down version of what you apparently went through.


I did the same thing many years ago. I think I got about 50 pages into the bible and then realized that I was not yet ready to abandon my faith so I stopped reading.

#10 shadowhawk

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 06:49 PM

In the end the sun will burn out and it will get very dark and very cold. No light or even stars. What a relief. Some (the Bible) have described the deepest part of hell this way.


You're referring to an incident unlikely to materialize for at least several million years (sort of an arbitrary number I'm throwing out, but you get the idea). When it finally does happen, I doubt we'll be stuck on Earth to experience it.


I suspect you may be right on the time issue, unless there is something we don't know. (Itself, quite likely) Some stars blow up abd don't burn up! Not my point at all.

Where will we go, so we have some personal hope?

#11 DukeNukem

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 10:10 PM

Congrats, Pham. You've escaped the Religious Matrix! The world makes a LOT more sense when you relieve yourself from supernatural explanations and interventions (like prayer). You'll find no loss or morality -- in fact, you will likely gain a greater respect for all life, given the incredible processes and odds for it to first appear and evolve in such a way as to by-chance result in creatures with the ability to appreciate it, as we can.

#12 DukeNukem

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 10:13 PM

Been trying several things, but having no luck...

Anyone know how I can (assuming it's possible) link to this thread from the outside world, such as Facebook, such that non-members can see it? Or does this always require registration?

#13 eternaltraveler

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 10:28 PM

does this always require registration?


the religion forum is currently set up to always require registration to see it. You'll need to take that up with your fellow board members.

#14 N.T.M.

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Posted 05 June 2010 - 07:02 AM

Where will we go, so we have some personal hope?


To another planet comparable to ours. They're rare, but presumably do exist. Don't worry, we have time. :-D

#15 Alex Libman

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Posted 08 June 2010 - 04:29 AM

Yeah, I have a major problem with portions of this forum being inaccessible to the outside world, which is why I've downgraded its priority on my vast "to troll" list. If my writings will never see the light of googlebot and other spidering engines then they will be lost down the memory hole if this forum ever goes down on deletes them - why waste my time on that?




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