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#1 eternaltraveler

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 08:12 PM


Abortion is a divisive issue in our society. Many consider it the murder of “human life”, and equate “human life” (ie everything from a Nobel laurate to a cancer cell (some of which have become free living see hela cells http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeLa)) with a human person.

They ask when does human life begin if not at the union of sperm and egg?

Unlike garden of eden proponents the data indicate human life began in some gradual way some hundreds of thousands to millions of years ago. Both a sperm and egg are alive and human. They are however, not people. People have brains and can think.

Just the same way as human life began in a semi nebulous way over the course of epochs (or aeons if you trace it back all the way), so too does the development of person-hood in the concepsus. As we know person-hood is a function of the brain, so it therefore follows that before there is even the slightest trace of a brain there is no person. After a brain starts to develop the waters muddy a bit; there is no hard and fast point where you can say before here there is no person, and after here, there is, the process is gradual.

Our society has very little problem with killing entities with little neural complexity, so surely the embryo should have at least as much neural complexity as a mouse before we start to entertain notions of it's innate rights. Neural development is a process, one that does not result in a self aware reasoning being until sometime after birth.

With present and near future technology we can come pretty close to making just about any random somatic cell develop into a person. This dubious potential doesn't mean any of these cells somehow have "rights".

In medicine we have criteria for establishing brain death. Once these criteria are met a person is no longer considered "alive" and we can harvest organs from them resulting in the death of most of the rest of the carcass left behind (aside from the organs transplanted into other people).

As a fun tidbit, about 60% of conceptions do not result birth. (Spontaneous) abortion is the rule, not the exception. [PMID]7117572 *

61.9% of conceptuses will be lost prior to 12 weeks. Most of these losses (91.7%) occur subclinically, without the knowledge of the mother.


As quoted in the text above that majority of conceptions do not result in birth. The majority pass out of the body without the woman ever being aware they existed. This alone makes the idea that god, or gods (assuming you believe they are of the all powerful type) somehow view, at least early term, abortions as a bad thing immediately fail the smell test. If abortion is murder, this is positively genocide. A blastocyst has no brain or even a single nerve cell. Assigning the same level of rights to this as you do to a person and calling it a child is preposterous and has no basis outside of religion.

The practice of confusing the two has and is resulting in the death and suffering of people by holding back biomedical progress.

On to the concept of the endowment of consciousness, or “ensoulment” from a more religious perspective.

"Ensoulment", that is the endowment of a concepsus with a human “soul”, consciousness, or being, until until relatively recently, was not considered to be something that happened at or near the time of conception, even in a religious context. This was true in Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. I have a copy of Thomas Aquinas' Suma Theologica sitting on my desk here. He was certain that the soul was not put into the body by god until at least the 40th day after conception, his reasoning being simply that the material form wasn't developed enough to receive a human soul until after this time. Abortion before that time was therefore no worse than contraception (which was admittedly quite a sin in Catholicism at the time). The idea of delayed ensoulment did not originate with him either, and was first brought to the Roman catholic church in the 4th century by St. Augustine, who himself borrowed it from Aristotle. It wasn't until the later half of the 19th century that this position was reversed. I'm not certain what the present Islamic take on the matter is, but they too accepted Aristotle's (and St. Thomas' reasoning).


On definitions.
Now, I generally won't debate matters regarding definitions because whatever this or that dictionary says, words are fluid phenomena. And having a debate centered around something like "murder=killing human life" according to this or that dictionary doesn't get us anywhere ethically (or morally); it is entirely a straw man. It's essentially putting Webster's dictionary in the place of god as an absolute principle on which to base all else, which is nonsense. Dictionary definitions are no basis for a discussion on ethics or morality, what is important is making sure those engaged in debate are aware of the definitions the others are using in the context of the debate.

That being said since many preceding discussion seems to center around the definition of murder, lets look at the definition from these various dictionaries.

from wikipedia
Quote:

Murder as defined in common law countries, is the unlawful killing of another human being with intent

from dictionary.com

the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).

from webster's

the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

Commonly accepted definitions of murder define it as killing a "human being" or a "person". So the first order of business in establishing that at least an early term conceptsus is either a "human being" or a "person". Some dictionary definitions of "human being" admittedly don't bother to define "human being" as anything other than as a member of the species "homo sapiens", others use a stricter definition which requires some degree of self awareness. Science very resoundingly comes down on the side that these clumps of cells are not remotely people or human beings if we were to use the later definition, and this is the one I use. This definition, like all definitions, is debatable. If I were to accept the former definition that would simply mean to me that the definition of "murder" includes some acts that are neither morally nor ethically wrong so I hope debates over definitions don't come up here.

"Person" is somewhat clearer, though some definitions also reference "human being".

from wikipedia

The term person in common usage means an individual human being. In the fields of law, philosophy, medicine, and others, the term also has specialized context-specific meanings.

In many jurisdictions, for example, a corporation is considered a legal person with standing to sue or be sued in court. In philosophy and medicine, person may mean only humans who are capable of certain kinds of thought, and thus exclude embryos, early fetuses, or adults with certain types of brain damage. [1][2] This could also extend to late fetuses and neonates, dependent on what level of thought is required


Under what criteria do I think a human life is a person who should have rights?

Well like Thomas Aquinas, St. Augustine, and Aristotle I would certainly want to take a conservative approach to the matter. We, like they, are not exactly dealing with zero information on which to base this decision. Indeed, we have quite a bit more information than they had. As I've stated above there is no specific point where we can point and say, here is a being with a full human consciousness and right before it there was none.
However though I disagree that there is a set point scientifically; there is a need for one legalistically (or set points for that matter, there is no reason we couldn’t have several; killing a consepsus before this point is fine, afterwards it should not be done unless there are compelling reasons, and after another point it is the murder of a human being). Rule of law needs to be maintained uniformly to have value.

In view of this I will only consider whether the presence of the neural architecture needed to maintain a human consciousness is present at all, not whether that neural architecture is being utilized (that is the presence of the hardware needed to run the software that is a human consciousness, not whether there is that software that is us actually running), so likely future science will refine this still further.

I won’t bother to go into the details of the hindbrain and brainstem as I think most of us here are aware that which allows the operation of our phenomenal consciousness and intellect is primarily a function of the forbrain, with the mid brain, pons, and medulla primarily dealing with homeostatic and regulatory functions. At 13 weeks of gestation the number of cells present in the forebrain is estimated to be roughly, well 1/13th of those present at birth, while by 22 weeks of gestation the number is about 1/3rd [Samuelsen et al]. At first glance this might make one tend to believe that a 13 week fetus has 1/13th the cognitive capability of a full term neonate (or perhaps erroneously of an adult human). However this is not remotely true. The human neuron is not as commonly believed, the fundamental processing unit of the human mind. The synapse is. And at the 13th week not only are there a small number of neurons, the synaptic density is much lower. At the 28th (that is well into the third trimester) week the synaptic density is only 1/3rd of the adult level (and 1/5th of the synaptic density at a year after birth which is actually almost twice as high as it is in adulthood (loosing many of these initial, “blank slate” synapses is an essential component to carving out the neural architecture needed for reasoning and cognition)[Johnson et al].

The development of synapses is not at all uniform in the human brain, the basic regulatory centers develop synapses well before similar structures emerge in the forebrain, and the various cortical layers develop synaptic connections at different rates as well within the neocortex itself[Johnson et al]. All of this intuitively makes perfect sense as there is virtually no need for any kind of higher cognition in the womb, however homeostatic regulatory mechanisms and visceral functioning is paramount.

At 28 weeks the synaptic density is 1/3rd of the adult level, or half the full term neonatal level, and the number of neurons even present in the forebrain is about half the full term level. This gives us 1/4th the neural complexity of a full term neonate only 10 weeks before full term. One might conclude that if this fetus was destined to be a genius with an IQ of 200 this fetus would have the IQ of 50, a mentally retarded but somewhat functioning person. Nothing could be further from the truth. IQ is not an absolute scale of intelligence; it is a relative scale of intelligence. In this case relative to other humans. At this stage the neural complexity is somewhat analogous to a rhesus monkey. An intelligent animal surely, but it isn’t going to score more than barely the double digits if that. Certainly not the level I would call a person, though also not the level I would be comfortable with the idea of killing for no reason at all. Though long term care facilities are full of humans permanently like this at a cost of 200-300k a year each to the taxpayer.

But is this the whole story? No. For that lets look at the neonate.

The neonate has a brain weight of about 1/3rd of the adult, and a synaptic density of half. This makes perfect sense as our heads are barely small enough to pass through the birth canal as it is. It became evolutionarily necessary for much of the brain to develop postnatally, (either that or women needed to develop some seriously massive booty…) evolution decided it would be better for us to take a little of the marsupial approach. Various radiations connecting distant regions of the brain together are not myelinated and functioning even at birth, which is fundamentally necessary to knit together the forebrain from many small islands of computational ability, into a conscious thinking being’s brain.

From the conclusion of “Fetal brain and Cognitive Development”, a review paper published in developmental review in 1999.

the fetus and neonate appears incapable of thinking, reasoning, understanding, comprehending, or experiencing or generating "true" emotion or any semblance of higher order, forebrain mediated cognitive activity. Rather, although capable of learning, the increasingly complex behaviors demonstrated by the fetus and neonate, including head turning, eye movements, startle reactions, crying, screaming, and rudimentary smiling, are probably best described as brainstem reflexes[R Joesph]



As I said, originally, the waters are muddy indeed. If the purpose is to arrive at a philosophical definition of when a conscious thinking being could be present, the answer seems to be sometime after birth, perhaps around the 6th month post natally. If the purpose is to arrive at a legalistic definition of when abortion should and shouldn’t be allowed, and if it would ever constitute murder my own recommendations are far more conservative than what the data seems to strictly say at this point as I don’t want to risk inadvertently allowing persons to be harmed. Killing a neonate I would therefore consider murder, and our entire biology is geared toward caring about them anyway. Also in my opinion Abortion in the 3rd trimester should not be done without a compelling medical reason, and the mother certainly should have exercised her right to choose by this point anyway.

On the other hand I see no objective reason whatever why abortion in the first trimester can’t be used as even a first choice of contraception if the woman finds that more convenient than other forms.

As an aside, pro choice folks often take the position that if a fetus can be kept alive outside of the womb, that should be the cutoff point for when an abortion could legally take place. In my opinion that is a dangerous position to take indeed. Right now fetuses as early as 21 weeks have been kept alive outside of the womb, it won’t be long before full artificial wombs are developed (I know of several promising projects in that regard). When that happens would that mean we would have an obligation to incubate even those 60% of conceptions that are never even noticed?

Grethe Badsberg Samuelsen, Karen Bonde Larsen, Nenad Bogdanovic, Henning Laursen, Niels Græm, Jørgen Falck Larsen and Bente Pakkenberg “The Changing Number of Cells in the Human Fetal Forebrain and its Subdivisions: A Stereological Analysis” Cerebral Cortex, Vol. 13, No. 2, 115-122, February 2003

Mark Henry Johnson, Yuko Munakata, Rick O. Gilmore “ Brain Development and Cognition: A Reader” Edition: 2 Published by Blackwell Publishing, 2002

R. Joseph “Fetal brain and Cognitive Development” Developmental Review, 20, 81-98, 1999

I invite contributions that further our scientific understanding, and our ethical and legal framework.
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#2 JonesGuy

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 01:57 AM

Hiya J,

Good opening.

Two metrics that I use are whether the thalamocorticol system is interacting, and whether there is transduction of sensory input to the thalamus. I'm nervous about your system of counting the number of synapses, though I can be swayed; loosely, I remember that people who're missing large numbers of synapses are still people. In my opinion, once sensory input begins to be coded in the cortex, it's okay to begin to get nervous.

There's also the conversion of the synapse during the fetal stage: shoot I'm about to step out, I'll have to throw out tidbits.
Okay, you know how the GABA receptor is not inhibitory during development? There's a switch that occurs, that converts the GABA into an inhibitory signal, and that allows Glutamate to become excitatory, and allows sensory transduction to influence synapse shape. I cannot remember the PI, but he found that oxytocin (or, shoot, one of the delivery hormones) during delivery caused that switch in mice.

Now, a newborn pup is not equivalent to a newborn human, but it keyed me to watch for that switch, when sensory transduction began to be encoded neuronally.

#3 Rational Madman

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 04:56 AM

In addition to the controversy over the requisite qualities needed for a person to enjoy legal protection, we shouldn't forget other factors that have influenced jurisprudence---such as the implicit constitutional right of privacy, and the notion that individuals are entitled to sovereignty over their bodies unless the state can demonstrate a compelling interest to restrict this right. Since there is little to no evidence that societal outcomes would somehow improve with the restriction of abortion procedures, future efforts to prohibit the procedure depends heavily on the emergence of a new---and scientifically supported---consensus on the definition of life, and evidence that the protection of prenatal life greatly outweighs other compelling interests. This is an enormous legal obstacle, which is greatly compounded by the guiding principle of stare decisis. One also has to consider the unintended consequences of restrictions of abortion, such as reduced economic mobility, an increased strain on natural resources, the worsening of state finances, etc. What's more, there is not convincing evidence that the restriction of abortion will lead to a serious consequential drop in the rate of procedures. Indeed, I remember reading an Economist article's citation of a Lancet study that suggested a possible correlation between legal restrictions and a per capita increase in procedures. However, this data may have been influenced somewhat by the socioeconomic disparity between countries with liberal and conservative approaches to the question. But, then again, you still have the anomalies of Ireland and Italy, so the author's conclusion may be somewhat appropriate. Overall, it's striking to me how futile efforts to engineer a reversal of existing statutes and legal opinion appear to be, and because of the substantial obstacles and limited evidence of serious aggregate costs, I don't think that the issue is deserving of its current place in the hierarchy of issues.

Edited by Rol82, 01 July 2010 - 05:04 AM.


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#4 chrwe

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 11:43 AM

The question "when does human life begin" and the question "when does human life end" are among the most difficult for lawyers, doctors and ethicists (? is that a word?) at the moment.

In Germany, interesting enough, abortion is generally punishable by law unless it falls under one of the exceptions that the law has (i.e., basically, performed by a doctor, informed consent, difficult situation and not too late).

On the other hand, if you kill a baby even in the 40th week of pregnancy - I think we can all agree that such a baby is as much a human as a born baby - it is not punishable as homicide or murder. I am thinking of cases like a mother purposefully hitting her full belly until the baby dies. Yes, such things really happen.

Whereas a conceived person, again on the other hand, can inherit stuff provided s/he was conceived before the person who leaves the inheritance occurs.

To me, this all reads like: We try to muddle along, but there is no real consent on when life begins. In general, the protection of human life on the fringes of existence (beginning and end) is as much a protection of "in potentia" human existence than of actual, conscious, "full" human existence. And to me, it could not be otherwise because the one thing people always forget about consciousness is that, never mind the number of synapses, it`s quality can only be assessed from "within".

To make this basic tenet livable, tho, you have to make compromises, again both at the beginning and the end of life. These compromises is what we are talking about, and they depend on a general consensus of society. So they change all the time.

Edited by chrwe, 01 July 2010 - 11:48 AM.


#5 Kolos

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 04:16 PM

Featus might be human (well it's human featus afterl all) but it's not a person, so the question is should we protect human life just because it's human or perhaps it's things like self-awareness and abstractive thinking that are really important. This question is very important to transhumanists.

#6 greensweater

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 10:28 PM

As a fun tidbit, about 60% of conceptions do not result birth. (Spontaneous) abortion is the rule, not the exception. [PMID]7117572 *

61.9% of conceptuses will be lost prior to 12 weeks. Most of these losses (91.7%) occur subclinically, without the knowledge of the mother.


As quoted in the text above that majority of conceptions do not result in birth. The majority pass out of the body without the woman ever being aware they existed. This alone makes the idea that god, or gods (assuming you believe they are of the all powerful type) somehow view, at least early term, abortions as a bad thing immediately fail the smell test. If abortion is murder, this is positively genocide. A blastocyst has no brain or even a single nerve cell. Assigning the same level of rights to this as you do to a person and calling it a child is preposterous and has no basis outside of religion.



First off, I havent finished reading it yet, but I'm pressed for time and wanted to reply specifically to this.

In your opening statement, you make the distinction between spontaneous and elective abortion (murder in a theists mind), as I am sure you are aware, the former requires no intent or conscious action, and the latter requires intent (to remove the pregnancy) and deliberate action (the actual abortion/murder). By making the distinction between the two, you have opened up your argument to many retorts.

In your following statement, you do not make that distinction where there must be one as it was made previously. A theist could reply to this in many ways, one being that because God is directly responsible for a spontaneous abortion, it is "the natural way" (God performing abortions, if you may), showing a lack of disregard for "Thou shall not murder". They could then state because there is a lack of intent and action, God does not view spontaneous abortion as a bad thing (passes the "smell test"), yet views elective abortion with anger because it does possess intent and action ( therefore failing the "smell test").

You would not call a man who unintentionally kills another man a murderer, where you would call a man who intentionally kills another a murderer. A theist is going to tear you apart on this point.

When arguing with a theist, you cannot place acts of God on the same level as an act of man. God cannot be angered by an act of God, yet God IS angered by an act of man. These types of approaches with a theist will lead nowhere. It really is impossible to take a "God does it, therefore man can do it" approach with a theist.

Edited by Grant, 01 July 2010 - 10:31 PM.


#7 eternaltraveler

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 12:39 AM

murder in a theists mind


not to nitpick, but theism is an extraordinarily broad label which includes a subset of people who might believe as you say above. I'll assume when you say "theist" you mean evangelical christian or some other religion that presently is known for being anti abortion, because otherwise your post doesn't make much sense.

When arguing with a theist, you cannot place acts of God on the same level as an act of man.


I'm afraid you've missed the point. I'm not at all attempting at all to argue with Christians or other religious people on what they think their religion tells them to do. That's pointless. Or at least beyond what I have the patience for. If they want to believe purgatory is teaming with spontaneously aborted embryos, thats up to them; not a discussion I want to have.

I'm attempting to generate a rational discussion. I did bring up several religious takes on the matter from a historical viewpoint, and as a tool to demonstrate that present fervor over 1 day old embryos is rather arbitrary even from a religious standpoint.

The fact that a very large percentage of fertilizations do not result in birth naturally is a piece of information those without fixed false belief systems might find useful in their armamentarium.

So far I'm happy with the discussion that is taking place.

Edited by eternaltraveler, 02 July 2010 - 01:49 AM.


#8 maxwatt

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 12:46 AM

The Ayatollahs have determined that the soul does not enter the fetus until after the third month of pregnancy, so abortion before then is not murder and is permitted to Muslims.

More seriously: if one determines that destroying the potential for a human life (as by aborton, or by contraception) is murder or at least aginst natural law, then is not celibacy equally a sin by withholding the potential creation of a human life? Just a thought.

#9 eternaltraveler

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 01:31 AM

Two metrics that I use are whether the thalamocorticol system is interacting, and whether there is transduction of sensory input to the thalamus


I certainly agree these are also useful as pieces of the puzzle. These connections really don't develop into well into the 3rd trimester. PMID 16118385

I'm nervous about your system of counting the number of synapses


I did expand somewhat on the synaptic density as a function of prenatal development, but I wasn't advocating it as a sole determinant by any means. Indeed, what you brought up is part of knitting all the islands of computational ability into a functioning whole, and should indeed enter into a rational discussion on when a person exists. Thanks for bringing it up.

These two points alone, taken together, make a very strong case for an exceedingly low degree of even theoretically functional cognitive ability at least well into the 3rd trimester.

Edited by eternaltraveler, 02 July 2010 - 01:35 AM.


#10 eternaltraveler

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 01:46 AM

We try to muddle along,


thats exactly what we do chrwe. We don't do too bad for a bunch of monkeys.

but there is no real consent on when life begins


To address the point above, there is consensus on when human "life" begins. You can take the long view I took in my first post (gradually over millions of years), or take the union of sperm and egg as a point where a new human "life" begins. There is no point in pro choice folks attempting to deny that the zygote is anything other than the first stage in a unique new organism's development (wikipedia says more or less exactly that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zygote).

I'm trying to disentangle human "person" with human "life". Only the subset of human "life" that is people have should have rights.

Edited by eternaltraveler, 02 July 2010 - 01:48 AM.


#11 greensweater

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 10:47 AM

murder in a theists mind


not to nitpick, but theism is an extraordinarily broad label which includes a subset of people who might believe as you say above. I'll assume when you say "theist" you mean evangelical christian or some other religion that presently is known for being anti abortion, because otherwise your post doesn't make much sense.

When arguing with a theist, you cannot place acts of God on the same level as an act of man.


I'm afraid you've missed the point. I'm not at all attempting at all to argue with Christians or other religious people on what they think their religion tells them to do. That's pointless. Or at least beyond what I have the patience for. If they want to believe purgatory is teaming with spontaneously aborted embryos, thats up to them; not a discussion I want to have.

I'm attempting to generate a rational discussion. I did bring up several religious takes on the matter from a historical viewpoint, and as a tool to demonstrate that present fervor over 1 day old embryos is rather arbitrary even from a religious standpoint.

The fact that a very large percentage of fertilizations do not result in birth naturally is a piece of information those without fixed false belief systems might find useful in their armamentarium.

So far I'm happy with the discussion that is taking place.


I'm afraid you took my constructive criticisms of a very small part that was all I had time to read earlier as an attempt to deconstruct your discussion, that was not my intention at all. As for the theist thing, you were incredibly broad with "belief in god or gods" so I followed suit.

How would one use the information on spontaneous abortion in their armamentarium? I'm still unsure how spontaneous abortion makes all types of early term abortion pass the "god smell test".

If your point is not to argue with people who believe in a God who supposedly looks down on abortion then why even mention the "god smell test"? I have no problem with you presenting a historical and religious view of abortion, as you did later in your article, but feel you went wrong when you tried to link SA to God being OK with EA.

Sorry I havent had time to read the rest, I'll get to it tomorrow afternoon.

#12 JonesGuy

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 04:46 PM

Two metrics that I use are whether the thalamocorticol system is interacting, and whether there is transduction of sensory input to the thalamus


I certainly agree these are also useful as pieces of the puzzle. These connections really don't develop into well into the 3rd trimester. PMID 16118385

I'm nervous about your system of counting the number of synapses


I did expand somewhat on the synaptic density as a function of prenatal development, but I wasn't advocating it as a sole determinant by any means. Indeed, what you brought up is part of knitting all the islands of computational ability into a functioning whole, and should indeed enter into a rational discussion on when a person exists. Thanks for bringing it up.

These two points alone, taken together, make a very strong case for an exceedingly low degree of even theoretically functional cognitive ability at least well into the 3rd trimester.


No argument. The phrase I use is "become increasingly nervous" as time passes.

I do know that memories of sound are formed during the third trimester, at the cortical level, too. At that point, I think that a very strong case for 'possessing a mind' can be made.

#13 eternaltraveler

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 08:55 PM

but feel you went wrong when you tried to link SA to God being OK with EA.


Ok. Not going to really argue this point as I don't think it's relevant anyway even if I did bring it up ;)

#14 greensweater

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 09:29 PM

but feel you went wrong when you tried to link SA to God being OK with EA.


Ok. Not going to really argue this point as I don't think it's relevant anyway even if I did bring it up ;)


My point entirely :D

#15 greensweater

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 09:34 PM

Two metrics that I use are whether the thalamocorticol system is interacting, and whether there is transduction of sensory input to the thalamus


I certainly agree these are also useful as pieces of the puzzle. These connections really don't develop into well into the 3rd trimester. PMID 16118385

I'm nervous about your system of counting the number of synapses


I did expand somewhat on the synaptic density as a function of prenatal development, but I wasn't advocating it as a sole determinant by any means. Indeed, what you brought up is part of knitting all the islands of computational ability into a functioning whole, and should indeed enter into a rational discussion on when a person exists. Thanks for bringing it up.

These two points alone, taken together, make a very strong case for an exceedingly low degree of even theoretically functional cognitive ability at least well into the 3rd trimester.


No argument. The phrase I use is "become increasingly nervous" as time passes.

I do know that memories of sound are formed during the third trimester, at the cortical level, too. At that point, I think that a very strong case for 'possessing a mind' can be made.



Just an observation, but I find it interesting that possessing a mind is what initially makes a baby a human person in the opinion of some people, but later if you ask what makes someone a human person they will say the ability for rational thought.
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#16 Luna

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 03:53 AM

Two metrics that I use are whether the thalamocorticol system is interacting, and whether there is transduction of sensory input to the thalamus


I certainly agree these are also useful as pieces of the puzzle. These connections really don't develop into well into the 3rd trimester. PMID 16118385

I'm nervous about your system of counting the number of synapses


I did expand somewhat on the synaptic density as a function of prenatal development, but I wasn't advocating it as a sole determinant by any means. Indeed, what you brought up is part of knitting all the islands of computational ability into a functioning whole, and should indeed enter into a rational discussion on when a person exists. Thanks for bringing it up.

These two points alone, taken together, make a very strong case for an exceedingly low degree of even theoretically functional cognitive ability at least well into the 3rd trimester.


No argument. The phrase I use is "become increasingly nervous" as time passes.

I do know that memories of sound are formed during the third trimester, at the cortical level, too. At that point, I think that a very strong case for 'possessing a mind' can be made.



Just an observation, but I find it interesting that possessing a mind is what initially makes a baby a human person in the opinion of some people, but later if you ask what makes someone a human person they will say the ability for rational thought.


Actually a lot of people will say "The ability to feel." I remember it was the majority.. and it's silly because animals feel too.

#17 Connor MacLeod

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 08:46 AM

As I said, originally, the waters are muddy indeed. If the purpose is to arrive at a philosophical definition of when a conscious thinking being could be present, the answer seems to be sometime after birth, perhaps around the 6th month post natally. If the purpose is to arrive at a legalistic definition of when abortion should and shouldn't be allowed, and if it would ever constitute murder my own recommendations are far more conservative than what the data seems to strictly say at this point as I don't want to risk inadvertently allowing persons to be harmed. Killing a neonate I would therefore consider murder, and our entire biology is geared toward caring about them anyway. Also in my opinion Abortion in the 3rd trimester should not be done without a compelling medical reason, and the mother certainly should have exercised her right to choose by this point anyway.


Well, I'd say our biology is not really geared for abortion at any stage, otherwise there'd probably be a big red button somewhere on a woman's body. I suspect that most people, if they saw the aftermath of an abortion at 12 weeks gestation or later, would probably be pretty horrified.

#18 Reno

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 09:04 AM

Well, there is about 7 billion people living on this planet. If you go by the law of supply and demand, human life isn't worth diddly shit. That IS the problem with the abortion debate. Why play definitions with the word human when, as a species, we could care less about one another.

I'll be honest, I don't give a flying fuck about people dying in africa. If I went to africa now I'd probably get chopped up with a machete by a gang of black guys from the local militia. Cold I know but hey, they've been killing themselves long before I was here, and they'll be killing themselves long after I'm gone.

Here is some cold hard statistics about abortion. Here in the US every time abortion was halted, twenty years later crime would rise. Twenty years after abortion is reinstated, twenty years later crime would fall. I'm not saying abortion is right or wrong, but the benefits of it are sobering. The majority of abortions are performed by young mothers who would have a difficult time raising their children if they were forced to carry them to term. That means the kids that would have otherwise been aborted have fewer resources growing up and as a result aren't exposed to the educational or financial opportunities that would be available to a more stable family unit.

Edited by Reno, 03 July 2010 - 09:16 AM.

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#19 greensweater

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 09:25 PM

Here is some cold hard statistics about abortion. Here in the US every time abortion was halted, twenty years later crime would rise. Twenty years after abortion is reinstated, twenty years later crime would fall. I'm not saying abortion is right or wrong, but the benefits of it are sobering. The majority of abortions are performed by young mothers who would have a difficult time raising their children if they were forced to carry them to term. That means the kids that would have otherwise been aborted have fewer resources growing up and as a result aren't exposed to the educational or financial opportunities that would be available to a more stable family unit.



That is a laughable statistic at best, first of all, I'd like to see some proof, second of all, correlation does not equal causation.

#20 Reno

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 09:56 PM

That is a laughable statistic at best, first of all, I'd like to see some proof, second of all, correlation does not equal causation.


http://en.wikipedia....nd_crime_effect

There have been several domestic and several international studies on the effect. Call it laughable all you want. That doesn't make the indirect consequences of abortion just go away. You can search google and find people on both sides of the theory.

Edited by Reno, 03 July 2010 - 10:04 PM.


#21 Luna

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 07:48 AM

Being against abortion is just completely nonsense.

Abortion is usually done if the woman didn't to have a child and it happened, forgot to use prevention or it didn't work (yes, it happens.) in most cases, in other it is due to rape.

About rape, it is completely stupid to disallow a woman to abort of she was raped.

For any other reason, why would the woman have to carry the fetus 9 months in the womb and then raise a child if she didn't want one and most likely incapable to do so? Having a baby without enough money being unprepared to raise a child will bring much more harm than good. It will bring a financial crisis which will make life hard both for the mother and the child, that means lack of education, lack of benefits which almost everyone has, lack of time with the parent because she needs to work so they can both survive.

Lack of being prepared to raise a child is not less bad: Not being able to educate, care and teach a child properly will bring more bad people to the world which like said earlier, increase crime.

So all in all, it will hurt both the mother and the child A LOT.

I am not sure at what month abortion should be disallowed.. but probably about 5-6 months of being allowed to abort is enough.

The possibility of future generations shouldn't come against current ones, especially if their manifestation means WORSE for both the newborn and the current living person.

#22 chris w

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 01:38 PM

Well, I'd say our biology is not really geared for abortion at any stage, otherwise there'd probably be a big red button somewhere on a woman's body. I suspect that most people, if they saw the aftermath of an abortion at 12 weeks gestation or later, would probably be pretty horrified.



This is demagogic. Aesthetics and emotions that follow, no matter how strong, are not / should not be an argument here. I'm against death penalty, but it would be ridiculous for me to claim, that it should be banned because it leaves the corpse of the con messed up afterwards.

And yes, biology is definitely not geared for abortion, but it's also not geared for open heart - or any other kind of surgery, otherwise we would just have a big "heal" button somewhere on the body.

To pro-life people this may be blunt, but I don't think a human in earliest stages is very different from a shrimp when it comes to ethical issues. It's not noble to kill a shrimp, and no one should do it ideally, but if I was a woman and this shrimp posed a threat to my own health or life even, I would not hesitate a second. It is because we are hard-wired to feel emotional attachment to members of our own species, that it's hard for us to preceive it this way.

I think Peter Singer did the best possible job on this issue so far, his line of reasoning is stone cold rationalist, consistently utilitarian - not all humans are persons, not all persons are humans. The crucial point according to him here is if you are able to understand yourself as an actor with a past and a future and a desire to continue existence. If those conditions aren't checked, then your existence is not as valuable as the ones in whom they are if it comes in a conflict. This is not to say that anything can be done to for example people with severe brain damage, but Singer argues that in a hipotetical situation, if one was forced to inflict death to a healthy ape and a human with a serious brain disfunction, he should choose the latter.

So I agree when he says to keep early abortions safe and legal with no strings attached, and in stages where it is determined that the fetus is already able to feel pain - as rare as possible, but still legal nonetheless.

It's atrocious that most pro-lifers oppose abortion on one hand, but rational sexual education and contraceptives on the other one, while those are the best ways to keep the number of abortions low, instead of counting for people for be desireless angels.

Edited by chris w, 04 July 2010 - 02:04 PM.


#23 JonesGuy

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 03:39 PM

@ Grant
- well, 'possessing a mind' is an essential component of 'capable of rational thinking'. And, in fact, 'possessing a mind' is a much easier metric than defining what 'rational thinking' is.

@ Reno
- aren't you at the wrong website then? This website is devoted to ending involuntary death. If you don't give a shit about Africans dying, then you're not really involved in our quest. Secondly, the faster Africans start pumping out educated doctors, the sooner they're going to help us cure death.

#24 Kolos

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 06:21 PM

- aren't you at the wrong website then? This website is devoted to ending involuntary death. If you don't give a shit about Africans dying, then you're not really involved in our quest.

I don't really see much connection here... You can't save everyone and you don't have to care about everyone or pretend to care so people don't accuse you of being selfish.
Anyway Africa have some much bigger problems than aging and most African countries are far from ready for immortality and all the problems related to it, perhaps many of them will never be.

#25 JonesGuy

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 07:16 PM

No, we can't save everyone. But that hardly means that we shouldn't be trying to save everyone. Curing aging is a medical question, and most of the death is due to medical issues. They're inter-related.

Anyway, off-topic.
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