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L-Tyrosine


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20 replies to this topic

#1 Stonish

Posted 09 July 2010 - 06:37 PM


Hi,

I was wondering; would it be better to take l-tyrosine in a bigger dose in the morning, smaller doses spread throughout the day, or won't it make a difference?

Also, I take l-tryptophan (1g) before sleep, would it offer me any added benefits to take a dose of 5 htp in the afternoon, or won't it have any effect (/unwanted side-effects?). I have a tendency towards depression, and I find the tyrosine and tryptophan quite beneficial. Input would be highly appreciated!

#2 chrono Re: L-Tyrosine

  • Location:New England

Posted 09 July 2010 - 07:31 PM

I have yet to see any data on the half-life of exogenously administered L-TYR. But anecdotal experience (including my own) suggests that it doesn't last all day. I guess it depends on what you're trying to get out of it; moderate doses 5-6 hours apart would spread the effect more evenly throughout the day, but one large dose in the morning (with a greater peak plasma level) might be more effective for certain kinds of tasks.

Sorry I can't say anything about the tryptophan/5-HTP question.

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#3 Stonish Re: L-Tyrosine

Posted 12 July 2010 - 07:58 PM

Chrono, thanks for the reply. I wasn't able to find anything usefull on halflife either.. For now I'll stick to spreading it out over 2 or 3 doses.

Is there anybody who can offer me some insight in the 5-HTP / l-tryptophan subject?

#4 kilgoretrout Re: L-Tyrosine

  • Location:Cincinnati, OH

Posted 20 July 2010 - 03:25 AM

Tyrosine is one of my mainstays. 2g +b6+C... in morn empty stomach, plus a stim, caffeine, sometimes also with synephrine wakes me up and makes me very clearheaded and energetic all day. Adding ALC works well with it.

Noting positive studies on its use to counteract sleep deprivation by the military, I've found that if I am sleep deprived, a megadose of 5-6g really does erase sleep deprivation quite effectively. Adding 700-800mg sulbutiamine is even better... this combo makes me as awake and clearheaded as amphetamines, without the overstimulation.

One use in AM seems to last most of the day, especially if I stay active. The Tyrosine not only had immediate acute effects, but I think it probably also replenishes stores of the neurotransmitters that are made from it, which helps keep me going all day on just the one AM dose.... a little extra caffeine maybe in the late PM seems to act as a re-booster.
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#5 Getting High On Life Re: L-Tyrosine

Posted 20 July 2010 - 12:42 PM

Kilgore,

How long have you been on that regimen? Have you noticed any tolerance?

#6 kilgoretrout Re: L-Tyrosine

  • Location:Cincinnati, OH

Posted 22 July 2010 - 07:14 AM

No tolerance. Ive been using tyrosine in the am on an empty stomach for probably 20 years. Works wonders. Dont really feel down without it... but definitely feel "even better" with it, still, every time. Give the machinery the raw materials, and it cranks out the neurotransmitters without fail... and they do their thing without fail every time forever it would seem. I think thats an important part of how the brain is built. Probably because neurotranmitters are involved, not stimulatory drugs. Thats where the caffeine, etc. come in! Posted Image
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#7 strider Re: L-Tyrosine

  • Location:us

Posted 05 August 2010 - 03:12 AM

i thought tyrosine was fat-soluble though?

#8 kilgoretrout Re: L-Tyrosine

  • Location:Cincinnati, OH

Posted 05 August 2010 - 08:31 AM

i thought tyrosine was fat-soluble though?


No I'm sure thats wrong. Sulbutiamine, yes, fat-soluble... But I'm pretty sure Tyrosine dissolves and absorbs fine in water, best on empty stomach to avoid competitive absorption inhibition by other aminos in food.




#9 chrono Re: L-Tyrosine

  • Location:New England

Posted 05 August 2010 - 12:41 PM

L-TYR is definitely water soluble; NALT is "more fat soluble" according to one study I found, which implies that L-TYR is perhaps slightly fat-soluble.

But my understanding is that, even with h2o+fat soluble amino acids (ALCAR is also one), they're fine to take on an empty stomach because of the water solubility, and are absorbed better because of the competition problem kilgore mentioned.

I would definitely take L-TYR on an empty stomach.

No tolerance. Ive been using tyrosine in the am on an empty stomach for probably 20 years. Works wonders. Dont really feel down without it... but definitely feel "even better" with it, still, every time. Give the machinery the raw materials, and it cranks out the neurotransmitters without fail... and they do their thing without fail every time forever it would seem. I think thats an important part of how the brain is built. Probably because neurotranmitters are involved, not stimulatory drugs. Thats where the caffeine, etc. come in!

I'm not saying I doubt your experience, but based on my understanding I find this really hard to believe. The problem with increasing amounts of dopamine by any means, whether it's adderall or tyrosine, is that the brain won't accept higher levels of NTs forever. There is downregulation on the receiving end, which means that if more is produced, the brain will compensate by deploying fewer receptors. It might be worse with stimulants because of the additional mechanisms and greater magnitude, but it's still the same principle.

A lot of people on the forum have mentioned that they develop a tolerance pretty quickly, like in the space of a week. Do you ever take breaks to see what the effect is?

#10 strider Re: L-Tyrosine

  • Location:us

Posted 05 August 2010 - 08:34 PM

hmm, so if i have been taking l-tyrosine with food and milk and what not, will i experience greater effects with just water then?

#11 chrono Re: L-Tyrosine

  • Location:New England

Posted 05 August 2010 - 10:03 PM

hmm, so if i have been taking l-tyrosine with food and milk and what not, will i experience greater effects with just water then?

Definitely possible. I've felt an increase in effect from ALCAR when making this change, and that's supposedly quite fat-soluble. At the very least, an empty stomach should lessen the time it takes to kick in, and give you a higher peak plasma level.

But you should try it and tell us, instead of me just thinking about it ;)

Edited by chrono, 05 August 2010 - 10:04 PM.


#12 kilgoretrout Re: L-Tyrosine

  • Location:Cincinnati, OH

Posted 08 August 2010 - 10:54 PM

chrono I have taken breaks, and I will amid to feeling a little slower. Nothing debilitating though. I also take adaptogens (ginseng, ashwaghanda) as well as alot of antioxidants, so maybe these have helped avoid receptor downregulation?

#13 canz Re: L-Tyrosine

Posted 13 October 2011 - 11:48 AM

I am definitely interested in this topic. I am looking to cycle sulbutiamine along with tyrosine because of what I have read on tolerance. I know first hand that I build a tolerance on sulbutiamine in just over a weeks time. I responded well to 200mg of sulbutiamine, but wasn't willing to continue to ramp up the dose in order to get the same effects. I am now on tyrosine. Definitely an uplift in mood at 500mg every few hours between meals, but nothing like the sulbutiamine.

I am going to attempt to dose 200mg of sulbutiamine one week, with 500mg x 3 (or 1500mg in the morning) for one week and continue that cycle. I'm hoping this will keep from building a tolerance to both and switching over to tyrosine will help cut down on the withdraw from sulbutiamine.

#14 chrono Re: L-Tyrosine

  • Location:New England

Posted 13 October 2011 - 08:49 PM

I love it when old threads get bumped <3

canz, let us know how it turns out, especially if you can feel that dosage of tyrosine right now.

The problem I see with increasing dopamine precursors by any means is one of tolerance. Most dopamine synapses have autoreceptors on the pre-synaptic terminal: the job of these is to sense how much dopamine is in the synaptic cleft, and adjust release accordingly. So if you take tyrosine every day and get an extra 5% dopamine release (just an arbitrary example), autoreceptors will detect this higher amount and eventually signal the transport system to release less. And there's the additional issue of post-synaptic receptor density, which I mentioned a few posts ago. So there's also a strong possibility that any dopaminergics will exhibit significant cross-tolerance.

It's also possible that the autoreceptor system doesn't compensate entirely for increased release, or that different parts of the brain will still be affected even if there's an overall tolerance. This is especially true of different chemicals, which may affect the dopamine system by different means.

Anyway, I'm always curious to hear reports about long-term usage and tolerance issues.

Edited by chrono, 13 October 2011 - 08:51 PM.


#15 Mr Black Re: L-Tyrosine

  • Location:Golfe de Mexique

Posted 14 October 2011 - 11:33 AM

Anyway, I'm always curious to hear reports about long-term usage and tolerance issues.

I've been taking l-tyrosine for symptoms of depression, 2g daily for about a year and a half, no tolerance as far as I'm able to discern. It makes me feel pleasantly normal. If I stop taking it or cut the dosage, symptoms return within a few days. I've tried 3g for a few days, but didn't notice any difference from 2g.
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#16 canz Re: L-Tyrosine

Posted 14 October 2011 - 12:29 PM

I love it when old threads get bumped <3

canz, let us know how it turns out, especially if you can feel that dosage of tyrosine right now.

The problem I see with increasing dopamine precursors by any means is one of tolerance. Most dopamine synapses have autoreceptors on the pre-synaptic terminal: the job of these is to sense how much dopamine is in the synaptic cleft, and adjust release accordingly. So if you take tyrosine every day and get an extra 5% dopamine release (just an arbitrary example), autoreceptors will detect this higher amount and eventually signal the transport system to release less. And there's the additional issue of post-synaptic receptor density, which I mentioned a few posts ago. So there's also a strong possibility that any dopaminergics will exhibit significant cross-tolerance.

It's also possible that the autoreceptor system doesn't compensate entirely for increased release, or that different parts of the brain will still be affected even if there's an overall tolerance. This is especially true of different chemicals, which may affect the dopamine system by different means.

Anyway, I'm always curious to hear reports about long-term usage and tolerance issues.


I may do a three day on, three day off protocol. I seem to recall by the 4th or 5th day of sulbutiamine that the effects were diminishing.

Now, I'm still learning when it comes to dopamine receptors, so bare with me....but if sulbutiamine causes the PFC to increase dopamine receptor density, and tyrosine is a dopamine precursor allowing the body to naturally increase dopamine wouldn't it be better to take them together? Or would the point of cycling them be, sulbutiamine increasing receptor density, then cycling in tyrosine to increase dopamine to fill those receptors?

Like I said, I'm learning, and I'm no chemist so bare with me. Any feedback on this would be wonderful! I'm constantly questing a nonpharmecuetical way to increase mood, motivation and brain function.

#17 chrono Re: L-Tyrosine

  • Location:New England

Posted 14 October 2011 - 04:12 PM

Now, I'm still learning when it comes to dopamine receptors, so bare with me....but if sulbutiamine causes the PFC to increase dopamine receptor density, and tyrosine is a dopamine precursor allowing the body to naturally increase dopamine wouldn't it be better to take them together? Or would the point of cycling them be, sulbutiamine increasing receptor density, then cycling in tyrosine to increase dopamine to fill those receptors?


This is an excellent question. Unfortunately, there really isn't that much data available about sulbutiamine's effects on DA (really just that one paper), so it's difficult to answer. For instance, sulbutiamine increases the density of D1 and not D2 receptors. Dopamine autoreceptors which inhibit release are almost entirely of the D2 type, so one imagines this to be a win-win situation. However, the tolerance effects seen with sulbutiamine use suggest that there's more to this picture...is whatever mechanism by which the density increases subject to tolerance? Or is it something to do with the effects on kainate, glutamine, or acetylcholine systems?

Regarding how to use them in conjunction, I think both the methods you suggest are reasonable. Taking both together would probably produce a larger overall effect, or you could save the tyrosine for when you're cycling off the sulbutiamine. Reports about tyrosine being effective long-term suggest you could just take tyrosine all the time, and add sulbutiamine when desired, but the addition of TYR might hasten whatever mechanisms causes sulbutiamine tolerance. Be sure to let us know when you've tried a few things :-D

@Mr. Black: thanks for that report. Several people have said that now, so it's looking increasingly like the tolerance mechanisms don't entirely compensate for the effects of exogenous tyrosine. Very interesting!

Edited by chrono, 14 October 2011 - 04:16 PM.


#18 devinthayer Re: L-Tyrosine

  • Location:Mass, USA

Posted 14 October 2011 - 07:35 PM

Tyrosine hydroxylase (more on this thread) is the rate-limiting factor in Tyrosine conversion. I honestly feel no strong dopaminergic effects from tyrosine alone. I do however experience an all-day slight increase in energy and overall a lack of need for napping if taking 500mg a day (similar to a low modafinil dose). However, when I combine with caffeine, I get a doubling effect.

Caffeine raises cAMP levels, which in turn, tell the body to create more Tyrosine Hydroxylase. This is why for 20 years, kilgoretrout has not ceased to see a decline in his tactics. That and yes, I do believe the herbs he is taking help the body regulate higher levels of monoamines. Antioxidants make the body much less reactive to stressful things in general as well as provide an environment where the body restores functioning. Sort of like if a machine shop had a lot of money and time, they would work on inventory and fix up the property. The same "why not" analogy applies to antioxidants... it's like having a bunch of volunteers working at your machine shop. That's the theory anyway.

Other ways of increasing Tyrosine Hydroxylase are Vitamin D, Muscarinic/Nicotinic Acetylcholine Dual Agonism (all-purpose cholinergics), decreasing yeast intake, and increasing Glucocorticoids (healthy stress).
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#19 manic_racetam Re: L-Tyrosine

  • Location:USA

Posted 14 October 2011 - 10:33 PM

Tyrosine hydroxylase (more on this thread) is the rate-limiting factor in Tyrosine conversion.....

Other ways of increasing Tyrosine Hydroxylase are Vitamin D, Muscarinic/Nicotinic Acetylcholine Dual Agonism (all-purpose cholinergics), decreasing yeast intake, and increasing Glucocorticoids (healthy stress).


So is intense exercise a healthy stress that increases glucocorticoids? Is that why it feels so freakin' good after working out?

#20 victortsoi Re: L-Tyrosine

  • Location:nyc

Posted 15 October 2011 - 12:18 AM

I was taking about 1500mg l-tyrosine daily for almost a year with tryptophan 5htp, and while it improved my sex life and kept me awake, I think it may have made me more anxious and emotionally imbalanced to the point where any productivity or cognitive benefits were negated.

20 mg Vinpocetine by itself seems to do what I had hoped tyrosine would, but maybe thathas something to do with my borderline hypertension. Tyrosine did improve my mood for a few weeks though.

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#21 Pirate Re: L-Tyrosine

  • Location:aus

Posted 10 November 2012 - 01:37 PM

Do you think 1.5 g is close enough to 2g (or 2.25g to be exact) that any of the reported benefits of taking 2g would still be there? (this is the difference between 2 caps and 3 caps for me atm, 750mg)




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