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ALCAR & Free Radical Production


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#1 FrequencyX

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 01:45 PM


I have been taking ALCAR for a couple of months now at around 1G per day (Morning and Afternoon) It is my understanding that ALCAR kicks up free radical production and can cause damage if an AOX is not taken such as R-ALA. MY question is if R-ALA or ALA is out of the question, what really stacks up? I am taking COq10 once a day for now but have been looking at Idebenone too. If you are wondering, the main reason I cannot take ALA at this time is due to some anagram fillings that I have.

I am worried about the Mercury and metal chelation if I were to take R-ALA which would cause some major issues for me. So is it worth taking ALCAR if I cannot also add ALA?

#2 health_nutty

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 04:15 PM

The general consensus is ALCAR is fine at 2g a day or less. Sorry I don't have any studies handy, just going from memory.

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#3 gamesguru

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 07:34 AM

The general consensus is ALCAR is fine at 2g a day or less. Sorry I don't have any studies handy, just going from memory.

The man with the sharpest memory remembers which thread he saw the discussion of ALCAR in, not just the result.

At 45 g/day and up, it becomes a problem. Up until then (especially below 4 g/day), it's arguably that the low doses don't really substantially activiate the pro-oxidative mechanisms of ALCAR.
http://www.pnas.org/...95/16/9562.full
http://www.fasebj.or...t/full/13/2/411
To sleep at night with an eased conscious, get ALA. It's cheap from Amazon or cheaper from smartpoweders.
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#4 FrequencyX

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 03:18 PM

The general consensus is ALCAR is fine at 2g a day or less. Sorry I don't have any studies handy, just going from memory.

The man with the sharpest memory remembers which thread he saw the discussion of ALCAR in, not just the result.

At 45 g/day and up, it becomes a problem. Up until then (especially below 4 g/day), it's arguably that the low doses don't really substantially activiate the pro-oxidative mechanisms of ALCAR.
http://www.pnas.org/...95/16/9562.full
http://www.fasebj.or...t/full/13/2/411
To sleep at night with an eased conscious, get ALA. It's cheap from Amazon or cheaper from smartpoweders.


Won't ALA\R-ALA potentially cause problems for me since I have some mercury fillings?

#5 chrono

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 12:10 PM

Won't ALA\R-ALA potentially cause problems for me since I have some mercury fillings?

Cutler would say yes, but there's a lack of real studies on the topic. I avoid it because of its potential for long-term prevention of CR-related benefits, which is a little creepy even if you aren't planning on a calorie-restricted diet.

I think you'll be fine if you stay at 4g/day or under. See this post for a quote about the high dosages used to generate oxidation in the original study, and this post for the (roughly) equivalent human dosages:

...This is from the point of view of someone unwilling to risk co-supplementation with ALA. In the absence of dose-ranging studies on healthy humans, I guess we mainly have the Ames rat studies to use a a basis. Lessons from the Ames studies are that too high a dosage not only causes oxidative damage but can be less effective than lower dosages that avoid the oxidative damage side effect.

Specifically, in old rats:

  • 1.5% in drinking water (equivalent to about 12g daily in 70 kg humans) is too much. It is the least effective of the three dosages tested and increases markers of oxidative damage.
  • 0.5% in drinking water (equivalent to about 4g daily in 70 kg humans) is optimal among the three dosages tested. It is more effective than the higher dosage in ambulatory activity and mitochondrial rehabilitation and does not increase markers of oxidative damage.
  • 0.15% in drinking water (equivalent to about 1.2g daily in 70 kg humans), while less effective than the 0.5% dosage, is still significantly more effective than the 1.5% dosage with respect to ambulatory activity.
[...]

It therefore seems that the optimal dose for a healthy OLD human with the least risk of side effects should lie somewhere between 1g and 4g daily. An old human who wishes to exercise an abundance of caution might restrict to the lower end of this range.


Edited by chrono, 08 September 2010 - 05:53 PM.
added relevant quote from link


#6 FrequencyX

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 01:51 PM

Won't ALA\R-ALA potentially cause problems for me since I have some mercury fillings?

Cutler would say yes, but there's a lack of real studies on the topic. I avoid it because of its potential for long-term prevention of CR-related benefits, which is a little creepy even if you aren't planning on a calorie-restricted diet.

I think you'll be fine if you stay at 4g/day or under. See this post for a quote about the high dosages used to generate oxidation in the original study, and this post for the (roughly) equivalent human dosages.


Thanks again guys. I was just a little paranoid about these free radicals possibly activating cancer cells etc.

#7 FrequencyX

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 01:54 PM

Won't ALA\R-ALA potentially cause problems for me since I have some mercury fillings?

Cutler would say yes, but there's a lack of real studies on the topic. I avoid it because of its potential for long-term prevention of CR-related benefits, which is a little creepy even if you aren't planning on a calorie-restricted diet.

I think you'll be fine if you stay at 4g/day or under. See this post for a quote about the high dosages used to generate oxidation in the original study, and this post for the (roughly) equivalent human dosages.


Thanks chrono. So it looks as it is up for debate as far as if it does actually try to pull mercury from fillings and push it into bloodstream\brain. I am possibly thinking of getting a new Multi (Now Foods ADAM) which contains ALA. Maybe I will be ok with my current dose of ALCAR at 500mg 2x per day and with the small amount of ALA in the multi.

#8 NR2(x)

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 11:03 AM

I gave it to my mum for insulin insentistivity and she suffered bad angina and had to have stenting etc. She had no symptoms beforehand but i believe that alcar highlighted rather than caused.
I would still assume the stuff is safe but moderation appears necessary.

Why not have the mercury filling removed, good for your health

#9 pycnogenol

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 03:31 PM

I gave it to my mum for insulin insensitivity and she suffered bad angina and had to have stenting etc.
She had no symptoms beforehand but i believe that alcar highlighted rather than caused.



How much ALCAR was she taking?

#10 adamh

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 04:09 PM

How would alcar remove mercury from fillings? Do you mean while taking it in powder form while it's in solution in the mouth? Possibly, but the obvious answer is to take it in pill form. I see no way for it to get to the fillings while it's in the bloodstream or in the gut.

#11 FrequencyX

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 04:18 PM

How would alcar remove mercury from fillings? Do you mean while taking it in powder form while it's in solution in the mouth? Possibly, but the obvious answer is to take it in pill form. I see no way for it to get to the fillings while it's in the bloodstream or in the gut.


LOL! I have just heard some others on different forums suggest not taking it due to the chelation of Mercury in the body. I find it hard to believe that it could extract or attempt to remove mercury from fillings.

Would love to see some actual studies that would link ALA\Mercury fillings. No credible evidence could be found by myself online to confirm nor deny if this information is factual or not linking R-ALA or ALA to amalgam fillings.

Edited by FrequencyX, 29 July 2010 - 04:26 PM.


#12 babyseal

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 01:11 PM

Regarding ALA and mercury, I might have heavy metals problems in general, and ALA gives me bad headaches - and almost nothing else gives me headaches.

Many people who are doing chelation say that they get headaches when taking ALA (as part of chelation) and that ideally you should chelate with something else first before adding ALA (you're probably familiar with this rationale).

However, headache is listed as a side effect of ALA: http://altmedicine.a...alipoicacid.htm

#13 niner

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 03:39 AM

We can put a stake through the heart of the "must take ALA with ALCAR" story. In a nutshell, the observed pro-oxidant effects were due to the very high doses used in an early Ames paper. They later did a dose-response study, and found that lower doses not only didn't show a pro-oxidant effect, they actually reduced oxidative stress. It is well presented by viveutvivas here.

#14 owls

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 06:05 AM

Won't ALA\R-ALA potentially cause problems for me since I have some mercury fillings?

Cutler would say yes, but there's a lack of real studies on the topic. I avoid it because of its potential for long-term prevention of CR-related benefits, which is a little creepy even if you aren't planning on a calorie-restricted diet.

I think you'll be fine if you stay at 4g/day or under. See this post for a quote about the high dosages used to generate oxidation in the original study, and this post for the (roughly) equivalent human dosages:

...This is from the point of view of someone unwilling to risk co-supplementation with ALA. In the absence of dose-ranging studies on healthy humans, I guess we mainly have the Ames rat studies to use a a basis. Lessons from the Ames studies are that too high a dosage not only causes oxidative damage but can be less effective than lower dosages that avoid the oxidative damage side effect.

Specifically, in old rats:

  • 1.5% in drinking water (equivalent to about 12g daily in 70 kg humans) is too much. It is the least effective of the three dosages tested and increases markers of oxidative damage.
  • 0.5% in drinking water (equivalent to about 4g daily in 70 kg humans) is optimal among the three dosages tested. It is more effective than the higher dosage in ambulatory activity and mitochondrial rehabilitation and does not increase markers of oxidative damage.
  • 0.15% in drinking water (equivalent to about 1.2g daily in 70 kg humans), while less effective than the 0.5% dosage, is still significantly more effective than the 1.5% dosage with respect to ambulatory activity.
[...]

It therefore seems that the optimal dose for a healthy OLD human with the least risk of side effects should lie somewhere between 1g and 4g daily. An old human who wishes to exercise an abundance of caution might restrict to the lower end of this range.


where are you getting that ALA might negate the benefits of a CR-diet?!

#15 chrono

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 08:13 PM

where are you getting that ALA might negate the benefits of a CR-diet?!


Here's one discussion: ALA blocks CR Life extension. I feel like there was a more involved discussion here, but I can't find it right now.

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#16 owls

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 12:43 AM

my intiution is that that makes absolutely no sense at all, but then again i'm uniformed on the subject..
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