2 replies to this topic

[smoothVTer]

I have been having great amounts of success with various nootropics. However, since starting my regimen I have come across an annoying phenomenon. I go to bed at about midnight, and wake up almost exactly 4 1/2 hours later at 4:30AM. I believe this is termed "terminal insomnia".

Before starting on nootropics I would only wake up when the light in the room started shining in; I would sleep solidly from 12am - 630am with no waking up.

I feel mostly OK, minor grogginess, nothing noteworthy to report aside from just being annoyed that I cannot seem to sleep the 6 1/2 hours like I used to do.

When I wake up at 430am, I am able to get back to sleep 75% of the time, and the remaining 25% of the time I am so antsy and have that feeling of just not being able to get comfortable and toss and turn until the alarm rings at 730.

I vary my daily nootropic stack somewhat between the following:

-- Huperzine-A
-- (500mg alpha-GPC OR 1000mg CDP-choline) + (800-2400mg piracetam OR 600mg pramiracetam)


Do I have to cease the nootropics altogether? I fall asleep rapidly at night, feel nice and tired naturally. Since this early morning waking began I started taking either tryptophan or 5HTP, which used to work great for keeping me still all night long, but even with the 5THP/tryptophan I am still rising early.

My question to the forum is this: How can I experimentally determine what is causing me to wake up at 430 on the dot every morning?

[chrono]

At what point in the day are you taking those substances? My guess is that it's one of the cholinergics: hup A or GPC/CDP. Hup A is probably particularly prone to doing this, because it works by lowering levels of the enzyme the brain uses to regulate its acetylcholine levels. And the effect can be fairly long-lasting. Aside from causing insomnia, elevated levels of acetylcholine can also interfere with memory consolidation during sleep.

You can determine which of these is causing the problem by taking them separately, maybe a few days apart. Also try varying what time of day you take them (I never take hup A later than about halfway through the day, unless I don't care when I get to sleep).

You may want to look at your sleep a little more closely, as well. Especially if you're worried about cognition, 6.5 hours may not be an ideal amount of sleep.

[smoothVTer]

All nootropics are taken before noon, usually around 9-10 AM. So though it is possible they might be responsible for this waking effect in the early morning, but not likely. Very weird. I wake up 4 hours later, on the dot, and feel so antsy and fidgety I just cannot get back to sleep.

I read in these forums about the possible interaction of cholinergics with cortisol/ATCH axis. Cortisol is what wakes a person up in the morning, perhaps my cortisol is spiking somehow too early in the morning? I do not know how to test this theory. But I am willing to experiment.

Phosphatidylserine seems to be widely accepted as a cortisol lowering supplement. However it is also touted as a cognitive enhancer. I cannot understand how these two opposing and contradictory findings are possible. Does PS promote deeper sleep due to lower cortisol, or is it stimulatory for a boost in cognition?