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Pramiracetam Experiences?


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#1 OpaqueMind

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 07:36 AM


Hello fellows brain enhancers :)
This is directed at people who have ingested Pramiracetam long enough to gauge it's effects.
I understand that it is supposed to be 7-30x stronger than it's cousin Piracetam, however I am interested as to whether it is just an increase in the effects of Piracetam or if it carries some new properties of its own. I wonder this because Aniracetam has a few effects that Piracetam doesn't ie. it is an anxiolytic, so logic follows that Pramiracetam has a few different effects of its own. If any of you have noticed these, even subtle differences, I would be pleased to know.

Edited by OpaqueMind, 04 December 2010 - 07:45 AM.


#2 OpaqueMind

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 03:28 PM

Nobody using pramiracetam at the moment?
Guess it's understandable considering the cost.
Well if anyone does get to try it out, let us know how it goes :blush:

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#3 Wurzel Bagman

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 07:36 PM

I've tried it a number of times. First time, I became incredibly tired and had to sleep all day. Second time I just became very dull emotionally (zombie like). And all the times after that I was either zombie like, tired or had no effect. I didn't have any nootropic or otherwise desirable effects from pram. Just because it's been deemed "8-30 times stronger than piracetam" doesn't mean it's got any times more positive effects, just that in a clinical setting researchers can use 8-30 times less to get the chemical effects of it. Personally I find it to be a waste of money. Stick to ani, oxi or piracetam.

If others have any positive accounts of pramiracetam, I would be interested in hearing them.

#4 solracselbor

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 10:27 PM

I've tried it a number of times. First time, I became incredibly tired and had to sleep all day. Second time I just became very dull emotionally (zombie like). And all the times after that I was either zombie like, tired or had no effect. I didn't have any nootropic or otherwise desirable effects from pram. Just because it's been deemed "8-30 times stronger than piracetam" doesn't mean it's got any times more positive effects, just that in a clinical setting researchers can use 8-30 times less to get the chemical effects of it. Personally I find it to be a waste of money. Stick to ani, oxi or piracetam.

If others have any positive accounts of pramiracetam, I would be interested in hearing them.


I take 600mg of pram with 2400mg of piracetam and 400mg magnesium, once daily. I sometimes add 250mg of CDP Choline, but I feel as though the benefits are a lot more pronounced without it. I have most definitely seen positive effects, one being my ability to finally conquer the dual 4 back task and move up to dual 6 back. But this may be due to practice effects. However, I may stop taking it as a result of the 1995 study that showed increase neuronal Nitric Oxide Synthase, which supposedly too much of can be harmful. The only reason I resume it is because I believe that I am taking a much lower dose than that shown to increase nNOS in rats, of which a similar low dose in rats did not increase nNOS. It is expensive, yes; but, if you take 600mg a day only, and you buy 25g for $30 (as i did from cerebral health), than you are essentially getting a 41 day supply at a rate of $0.73/day. Luckily for me, the good people a Cerebral health sent me 30g for the same price, which made it even better.

It definitely does not make me tired, and it has increased my mood significantly, but, at times, I have noticed more blunt emotions when taking pram alone.

Also, You know that claim everyone makes after taking piracetam--everything seems "clearer"? Well, I only get that effect if I take it with CDP choline, and, although my sight is "clearer" (actually, it would be better stated that peripheral vision is simply more enhanced), with CDP I dont get as good of a nootropic boost (e.g., reading does not become easier and I oftentimes become "spacey"). However, taking CDP before bed and following up with the pram in the morning seems to be making this work a lot better.

In all, this may sound hypocritical and ironic, I would not advise taking pram until more knowledge on this "nitric oxide" thing emerges. I have been taking it for about 2 weeks.


P.S. Does anyone have any knowledge on nNOS, in regard to whether anything that may increase it should be avoided? Do antioxidants counter the effect?

Edited by solracselbor, 04 December 2010 - 10:30 PM.


#5 tornpie

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 11:06 PM

I've tried it a number of times. First time, I became incredibly tired and had to sleep all day. Second time I just became very dull emotionally (zombie like). And all the times after that I was either zombie like, tired or had no effect. I didn't have any nootropic or otherwise desirable effects from pram. Just because it's been deemed "8-30 times stronger than piracetam" doesn't mean it's got any times more positive effects, just that in a clinical setting researchers can use 8-30 times less to get the chemical effects of it. Personally I find it to be a waste of money. Stick to ani, oxi or piracetam.

If others have any positive accounts of pramiracetam, I would be interested in hearing them.


I take 600mg of pram with 2400mg of piracetam and 400mg magnesium, once daily. I sometimes add 250mg of CDP Choline, but I feel as though the benefits are a lot more pronounced without it. I have most definitely seen positive effects, one being my ability to finally conquer the dual 4 back task and move up to dual 6 back. But this may be due to practice effects. However, I may stop taking it as a result of the 1995 study that showed increase neuronal Nitric Oxide Synthase, which supposedly too much of can be harmful. The only reason I resume it is because I believe that I am taking a much lower dose than that shown to increase nNOS in rats, of which a similar low dose in rats did not increase nNOS. It is expensive, yes; but, if you take 600mg a day only, and you buy 25g for $30 (as i did from cerebral health), than you are essentially getting a 41 day supply at a rate of $0.73/day. Luckily for me, the good people a Cerebral health sent me 30g for the same price, which made it even better.

It definitely does not make me tired, and it has increased my mood significantly, but, at times, I have noticed more blunt emotions when taking pram alone.

Also, You know that claim everyone makes after taking piracetam--everything seems "clearer"? Well, I only get that effect if I take it with CDP choline, and, although my sight is "clearer" (actually, it would be better stated that peripheral vision is simply more enhanced), with CDP I dont get as good of a nootropic boost (e.g., reading does not become easier and I oftentimes become "spacey"). However, taking CDP before bed and following up with the pram in the morning seems to be making this work a lot better.

In all, this may sound hypocritical and ironic, I would not advise taking pram until more knowledge on this "nitric oxide" thing emerges. I have been taking it for about 2 weeks.


P.S. Does anyone have any knowledge on nNOS, in regard to whether anything that may increase it should be avoided? Do antioxidants counter the effect?


I believe I've read that carnosine and aminoguanidine among others can modulate NOS activity. I'm going to be starting pramiracetam, centrophenoxine, ALT-711, and carnosine next week. From what I currently know and can remember, the problems with NOS has to do with NMDA excitotoxicity in addition to increased oxidation. It seems like the guys on the bodybuilding boards are starting to become aware of increasing NO for increased muscle pump increases oxidation. I would assume that most people on this board probably shouldn't worry too much about NMDA excitotoxicity or oxidative stress from pramiracetam since most of us are taking NMDA antagonists such as magnesium, huperzine A, etc. and antioxidants out the ass. Pramiracetam seems to me like it's nothing compared to amphetamine or anabolics, l-arginine, beta-alanine, and citrulline malate in increasing NO. Of course I have yet to try it, but anecdotally it seems like the NO problem is somewhat able to be mitigated with memantine and such for the hard hitting drugs like amphetamine. This is all I could dig up so far:

Zheng B, Zheng T, Wang L, Chen X, Shi C, Zhao S. Aminoguanidine inhibition of iNOS activity ameliorates cerebral vasospasm after subarachnoid hemorrhage in rabbits via restoration of dysfunctional endothelial cells. J Neurol Sci. 2010 Aug 15;295(1-2):97-103.

#6 solracselbor

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 11:29 PM

I've tried it a number of times. First time, I became incredibly tired and had to sleep all day. Second time I just became very dull emotionally (zombie like). And all the times after that I was either zombie like, tired or had no effect. I didn't have any nootropic or otherwise desirable effects from pram. Just because it's been deemed "8-30 times stronger than piracetam" doesn't mean it's got any times more positive effects, just that in a clinical setting researchers can use 8-30 times less to get the chemical effects of it. Personally I find it to be a waste of money. Stick to ani, oxi or piracetam.

If others have any positive accounts of pramiracetam, I would be interested in hearing them.


I take 600mg of pram with 2400mg of piracetam and 400mg magnesium, once daily. I sometimes add 250mg of CDP Choline, but I feel as though the benefits are a lot more pronounced without it. I have most definitely seen positive effects, one being my ability to finally conquer the dual 4 back task and move up to dual 6 back. But this may be due to practice effects. However, I may stop taking it as a result of the 1995 study that showed increase neuronal Nitric Oxide Synthase, which supposedly too much of can be harmful. The only reason I resume it is because I believe that I am taking a much lower dose than that shown to increase nNOS in rats, of which a similar low dose in rats did not increase nNOS. It is expensive, yes; but, if you take 600mg a day only, and you buy 25g for $30 (as i did from cerebral health), than you are essentially getting a 41 day supply at a rate of $0.73/day. Luckily for me, the good people a Cerebral health sent me 30g for the same price, which made it even better.

It definitely does not make me tired, and it has increased my mood significantly, but, at times, I have noticed more blunt emotions when taking pram alone.

Also, You know that claim everyone makes after taking piracetam--everything seems "clearer"? Well, I only get that effect if I take it with CDP choline, and, although my sight is "clearer" (actually, it would be better stated that peripheral vision is simply more enhanced), with CDP I dont get as good of a nootropic boost (e.g., reading does not become easier and I oftentimes become "spacey"). However, taking CDP before bed and following up with the pram in the morning seems to be making this work a lot better.

In all, this may sound hypocritical and ironic, I would not advise taking pram until more knowledge on this "nitric oxide" thing emerges. I have been taking it for about 2 weeks.


P.S. Does anyone have any knowledge on nNOS, in regard to whether anything that may increase it should be avoided? Do antioxidants counter the effect?


I believe I've read that carnosine and aminoguanidine among others can modulate NOS activity. I'm going to be starting pramiracetam, centrophenoxine, ALT-711, and carnosine next week. From what I currently know and can remember, the problems with NOS has to do with NMDA excitotoxicity in addition to increased oxidation. It seems like the guys on the bodybuilding boards are starting to become aware of increasing NO for increased muscle pump increases oxidation. I would assume that most people on this board probably shouldn't worry too much about NMDA excitotoxicity or oxidative stress from pramiracetam since most of us are taking NMDA antagonists such as magnesium, huperzine A, etc. and antioxidants out the ass. Pramiracetam seems to me like it's nothing compared to amphetamine or anabolics, l-arginine, beta-alanine, and citrulline malate in increasing NO. Of course I have yet to try it, but anecdotally it seems like the NO problem is somewhat able to be mitigated with memantine and such for the hard hitting drugs like amphetamine. This is all I could dig up so far:

Zheng B, Zheng T, Wang L, Chen X, Shi C, Zhao S. Aminoguanidine inhibition of iNOS activity ameliorates cerebral vasospasm after subarachnoid hemorrhage in rabbits via restoration of dysfunctional endothelial cells. J Neurol Sci. 2010 Aug 15;295(1-2):97-103.




What are some non-prescription supplements you can think of that counteract NOS (antioxidants)? Also, I believe that there are more than 1 form of NOS (i.e. nNOS, iNOS, and eNOS). When will you be trying the pram?



#7 markl323

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 04:21 AM

i took about 300mg last night after had been taken 2g of aniracetam 6 hours earlier. they are exactly like most people describe. they both work!!! aniracetam reduces anxiety and it gives me a new found passion for music. but i don't think it does much for my cognitive abilities. i think it even distracts me a little at work.

my mind has never been clearer with pramiracetam. my brain usually gets very very cloudy and heavy in the morning but i woke up today and there was none of that. dreams were more lucid, i could remember them when i woke up, something i hadn't been able to do for a long time. i used to be on adderall and it gave me similar effects in terms of sleep. but it made very emotionless so i stopped taking it.

food also smells much better now. i also get hungry more often, which i think is due to the brain working a little bit more. the food also tastes great, unlike when i was on adderall.

i'm also more sociable. i like to talk more. i feel better overall. but i'm not sure which is responsible for this.

i took them with Alpha-GPC. i don't get the headache effects some people report from either one of them. i use 1g of Alpha-GPC with every 200mg of pramiracetam or 1g of aniracetam.

oh btw, yesterday was my first time. the package arrived in the afternoon. i'm hoping the effects will last. they all taste bad but pramiracetam tastes the worst. i used spoons to put them in my mouth then drank half a glass of milk. no big deal.

none of these are placebo effects. i had taken john wort, gingko biloba and a few other stimulants before. some worked, some didn't. i could tell the difference.

i will report again Monday night and see if it improves my work performance.

#8 tornpie

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 07:44 AM

I've tried it a number of times. First time, I became incredibly tired and had to sleep all day. Second time I just became very dull emotionally (zombie like). And all the times after that I was either zombie like, tired or had no effect. I didn't have any nootropic or otherwise desirable effects from pram. Just because it's been deemed "8-30 times stronger than piracetam" doesn't mean it's got any times more positive effects, just that in a clinical setting researchers can use 8-30 times less to get the chemical effects of it. Personally I find it to be a waste of money. Stick to ani, oxi or piracetam.

If others have any positive accounts of pramiracetam, I would be interested in hearing them.


I take 600mg of pram with 2400mg of piracetam and 400mg magnesium, once daily. I sometimes add 250mg of CDP Choline, but I feel as though the benefits are a lot more pronounced without it. I have most definitely seen positive effects, one being my ability to finally conquer the dual 4 back task and move up to dual 6 back. But this may be due to practice effects. However, I may stop taking it as a result of the 1995 study that showed increase neuronal Nitric Oxide Synthase, which supposedly too much of can be harmful. The only reason I resume it is because I believe that I am taking a much lower dose than that shown to increase nNOS in rats, of which a similar low dose in rats did not increase nNOS. It is expensive, yes; but, if you take 600mg a day only, and you buy 25g for $30 (as i did from cerebral health), than you are essentially getting a 41 day supply at a rate of $0.73/day. Luckily for me, the good people a Cerebral health sent me 30g for the same price, which made it even better.

It definitely does not make me tired, and it has increased my mood significantly, but, at times, I have noticed more blunt emotions when taking pram alone.

Also, You know that claim everyone makes after taking piracetam--everything seems "clearer"? Well, I only get that effect if I take it with CDP choline, and, although my sight is "clearer" (actually, it would be better stated that peripheral vision is simply more enhanced), with CDP I dont get as good of a nootropic boost (e.g., reading does not become easier and I oftentimes become "spacey"). However, taking CDP before bed and following up with the pram in the morning seems to be making this work a lot better.

In all, this may sound hypocritical and ironic, I would not advise taking pram until more knowledge on this "nitric oxide" thing emerges. I have been taking it for about 2 weeks.


P.S. Does anyone have any knowledge on nNOS, in regard to whether anything that may increase it should be avoided? Do antioxidants counter the effect?


I believe I've read that carnosine and aminoguanidine among others can modulate NOS activity. I'm going to be starting pramiracetam, centrophenoxine, ALT-711, and carnosine next week. From what I currently know and can remember, the problems with NOS has to do with NMDA excitotoxicity in addition to increased oxidation. It seems like the guys on the bodybuilding boards are starting to become aware of increasing NO for increased muscle pump increases oxidation. I would assume that most people on this board probably shouldn't worry too much about NMDA excitotoxicity or oxidative stress from pramiracetam since most of us are taking NMDA antagonists such as magnesium, huperzine A, etc. and antioxidants out the ass. Pramiracetam seems to me like it's nothing compared to amphetamine or anabolics, l-arginine, beta-alanine, and citrulline malate in increasing NO. Of course I have yet to try it, but anecdotally it seems like the NO problem is somewhat able to be mitigated with memantine and such for the hard hitting drugs like amphetamine. This is all I could dig up so far:

Zheng B, Zheng T, Wang L, Chen X, Shi C, Zhao S. Aminoguanidine inhibition of iNOS activity ameliorates cerebral vasospasm after subarachnoid hemorrhage in rabbits via restoration of dysfunctional endothelial cells. J Neurol Sci. 2010 Aug 15;295(1-2):97-103.




What are some non-prescription supplements you can think of that counteract NOS (antioxidants)? Also, I believe that there are more than 1 form of NOS (i.e. nNOS, iNOS, and eNOS). When will you be trying the pram?


I would say carnosine seems like the best bet.

Pram will be arriving Monday or Tuesday according to UPS. I don't know when the centrophenoxine is coming though. Right now I am out of a choline source and B5.

#9 Georgina

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 06:07 PM

Hi Solracselbor

You mention that taking CDP Choline at the same time as taking piracetam lessons the effect of piracetam but that taking them together gives that "clearer" thinking that many experience. Do you think that increasing the amount of piracetam with the CDP would solve the problem or is it better to take the CDP at night like you said and take the piracetam in the morning. I am one of those people who really notices that "clearer thinking" when I take them. Even my eye sight seems to improve (fewer floaters). I thought this was all the piracetam and the CDP was only used protect the brain from over stimulation??

I would appreciate any thoughts you have.

Thank you

#10 solracselbor

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 08:02 PM

Hi Solracselbor

You mention that taking CDP Choline at the same time as taking piracetam lessons the effect of piracetam but that taking them together gives that "clearer" thinking that many experience. Do you think that increasing the amount of piracetam with the CDP would solve the problem or is it better to take the CDP at night like you said and take the piracetam in the morning. I am one of those people who really notices that "clearer thinking" when I take them. Even my eye sight seems to improve (fewer floaters). I thought this was all the piracetam and the CDP was only used protect the brain from over stimulation??

I would appreciate any thoughts you have.

Thank you


Hi,

On the contrary, CDP plus piracetam muddies my thinking. It does not make it clearer, I actually feel more spacey than usual. However, it gives me that stereotypical "visual clarity" most people seem to report. This form of visual clarity, I would argue, is a result of increased attentional scope via the peripherals (not necessarily clearer vision). I also get a similar effect after learning something novel. Choline, for me, seems to lessen the effects of both pramiracetam and piracetam. However, after a while (2 or 3 days) I begin to notice headaches with the racetams. At this point in time is when I know I now need to introduce choline back into my system--usually a 250mg cap does the trick. Afterwards, headaches are non existent for another few days, and the cycle continues.

I have a lingering feeling that the fact most people stop noticing any effects with the racetams, usually after a few days, is due to introducing an over abundance of Choline. This is understandable given the fact that most people on this forum state that (pi)racatam MUST be taken with a choline source. Also, I would definitely not increase the amount of piracetam; rather, decrease the amount of choline. There is a possibility of kidney damage with too much of anything. For example, about a year ago I was taking 9g of piracetam per day plus 500mg of cdp choline/day. I did this for about a month. The effects for the first week or two were fine, thereafter such effects subsided and, as a result, I relinquished its use. A few months later I was afflicted with an extremely painful kidney stone, of which I attribute to the abuse of piracetam. Then again, I seldom drank water during the course of supplementation; but, nevertheless, I still think it caused the problem. Due to a lack of health insurance at the time, I was unable to get the stone analyzed (however I still have the stone sealed in a container Posted Image) to see if it was actually a calcium deposit or something worse (chromium?).

Anyways, I would recommend only taking choline when your head hurts. If this happens often, then take 250mg of choline before bed, and the next morning try your piracetam regimen and see if the headache returns. If yes, try 500mg before bed. The point is this, if you are noticing negative effects then cease use. Do not try and convince yourself that such a supplement MUST work because everyone says it does. Also, if you are not engaging in rigorous learning while using piracetam, I guarantee you that you will gain no benefit. Plenty of research shows that piracetam increases neuroplasticity, therefore you must be engaging in activities that elicit your subjective, pinnacle focusing and learning capabilities for such effects to become long lasting. If you consume the supplement and watch t.v, than negative side effects as a result of neuroplasticity may become evident (such as becoming more easily entrained in television watching, and less active in learning). See my opinion here.

Of course, this is only my "2 cents". I would heed the advice of others more knowledgeable on the chemical interactions/reactions of such substances, as my background is predominantly in psychology and not biochemistry.

-sol

#11 Wurzel Bagman

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 07:03 AM

Well this talk about pram spurred me to give it another shot. This time I'll be sure to isolate it from other nootropics to be sure of the effects. I had 350mg earlier tonight. After an hour I noticed that my peripheral awareness in vision was enhanced. I felt a bit of unease, a sort of nervous tension before I ate. Supper did taste better than usual (perhaps stronger sense of taste?) and I did feel noticeably more hungry from the pram. When I had to stop for a train crossing, I started to focus intently on each individual train car, fixating my gaze rapidly in order to clearly see the markings as each one went by. This made me slightly dizzy but it was amusing to do at the time. After 3 hours of having the pram I developed a distinct headache that I've had in the past from nootropics without a choline source. I took 1 capsule of Jarrow Formulas Neuro Optimizer and it was gone within 15 minutes. As suggested by solracselbor, I'll only take some choline when I get a headache.

To gain the best results from the pramiracetam I have a plethora of brain exercises and activities to stimulate my mind. These include:

Typing Master -I'm learning to type really quickly with the Dvorak layout
Brain Workshop -great dual-n-back program for working memory
EarMaster School 5 -Musical training software
Brain Fitness Program -Powerful, clinically validated auditory brain enhancement software
Lumosity -Brain training website: Current BPI: 1446
HeadStrong -Another site similar to lumosity with a 1 month trial
MindHabits -Neat program with games involving clicking on smiling people to boost mood. Every time I play i can't
help smiling myself, love it!
Treadmill -Best nootropic in my mind. Nothing beats the brain plasticity effects of some good cardio.
Various meditation programs comprising of binaural beats (Hemi-sync, Holosync, BrainSpeak Ultra Intelligence, Equisync,
Lifeflow, Brain Evolution System)
Tons of hypnosis tracks
Rosetta Stone -Attempting to learn Russian, Japanese and French
Kindle -Books are very powerful in developing the mind. Sad to see fewer and fewer people reading them these
days. Internet reading only reshapes our minds to have scattered short attention spans. Read "The
Shallows: How the Internet is Changing our Brains" (I could be wrong but I'm willing to bet that most
the self-proclaimed ADDers lurking here are just internet and technology junkies that have bought it
on themselves through years of practice of ignoring and skipping details most their net lives.
Podcasts -Brain Science Podcast is great. Anything about neuroscience really fascinates me.

Since I am now on a break from university, I will extensively test out pramiracetam with my brain building regime. If anyone has some other ideas of great ways to put it to good use or questions I'd be happy to hear them. I'll continue to post here when I notice pramiracetam related effects.
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#12 tornpie

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 10:57 PM

I've been playing with my pramiracetam dosage. I'm not sure if it's really doing anything that drastic right now. I've done everything from 500 mg-3500 mg with 0-1000 mg of centrophenoxine and up to 4500 mg of piracetam. I'm also taking up to 6 g of ALCAR. I don't have any B5 though and ran out of huperzine A.

Even though I said I don't notice anything drastic, I think it may have a more subtle noticeable effect over time. I might have to shelve pram until I have more disposable income to really play with it to see if this is true or not. I guess I was doing a bit of wishful thinking that it would have adderall like effectiveness for ADHD.

#13 Delta Gamma

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 04:19 PM

P.S. Does anyone have any knowledge on nNOS, in regard to whether anything that may increase it should be avoided? Do antioxidants counter the effect?


Moderately increased oxidation + vasodilation are the first side effects that come to mind, then there's the ill defined second messenger pathway for neuronal cGMP. I'll post more after my pharmacology final.

#14 tornpie

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 12:45 AM

I've tried it a number of times. First time, I became incredibly tired and had to sleep all day. Second time I just became very dull emotionally (zombie like). And all the times after that I was either zombie like, tired or had no effect. I didn't have any nootropic or otherwise desirable effects from pram. Just because it's been deemed "8-30 times stronger than piracetam" doesn't mean it's got any times more positive effects, just that in a clinical setting researchers can use 8-30 times less to get the chemical effects of it. Personally I find it to be a waste of money. Stick to ani, oxi or piracetam.

If others have any positive accounts of pramiracetam, I would be interested in hearing them.


I take 600mg of pram with 2400mg of piracetam and 400mg magnesium, once daily. I sometimes add 250mg of CDP Choline, but I feel as though the benefits are a lot more pronounced without it. I have most definitely seen positive effects, one being my ability to finally conquer the dual 4 back task and move up to dual 6 back. But this may be due to practice effects. However, I may stop taking it as a result of the 1995 study that showed increase neuronal Nitric Oxide Synthase, which supposedly too much of can be harmful. The only reason I resume it is because I believe that I am taking a much lower dose than that shown to increase nNOS in rats, of which a similar low dose in rats did not increase nNOS. It is expensive, yes; but, if you take 600mg a day only, and you buy 25g for $30 (as i did from cerebral health), than you are essentially getting a 41 day supply at a rate of $0.73/day. Luckily for me, the good people a Cerebral health sent me 30g for the same price, which made it even better.

It definitely does not make me tired, and it has increased my mood significantly, but, at times, I have noticed more blunt emotions when taking pram alone.

Also, You know that claim everyone makes after taking piracetam--everything seems "clearer"? Well, I only get that effect if I take it with CDP choline, and, although my sight is "clearer" (actually, it would be better stated that peripheral vision is simply more enhanced), with CDP I dont get as good of a nootropic boost (e.g., reading does not become easier and I oftentimes become "spacey"). However, taking CDP before bed and following up with the pram in the morning seems to be making this work a lot better.

In all, this may sound hypocritical and ironic, I would not advise taking pram until more knowledge on this "nitric oxide" thing emerges. I have been taking it for about 2 weeks.


P.S. Does anyone have any knowledge on nNOS, in regard to whether anything that may increase it should be avoided? Do antioxidants counter the effect?


I found something else that inhibits NOS. Don't know which subtype but it's a supp I've been wanting to try for a while.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agmatine

#15 kikai93

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 01:50 AM

I've only found Pramiracetam to be useful in conjunction with other supplements. By itself at the recommended "optimal" dosage (10mg/kg) it leaves me feeling tired. At the minimum clinical dosage (600mg bid) it left me feeling tired and on dose two it was nap time. In conjunction with other supplements I've found it to increase the overall effects on retention of material and reading comprehension, and the drowsiness side effect to be absent.

#16 Neuronic

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Posted 24 December 2010 - 08:29 PM

I was using it for a couple weeks before I was given Adderall. Personally I feel that pramiracetam benefits me tremendously when it comes to fighting off sleepiness and thinking clearer.
Adderall is much better when it comes to concentrating on something, but pram is the next best legal alternative.

Does anyone else ever notice a strange improvement in long term memory? Both racetams will cause sort of a flashback to something that happened 8-14 years ago. For instance if I stub my toe, I might suddenly remember a time when I was a kid and smashed it. Stuff that I may have completely forgotten about.

#17 Ichoose2live

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Posted 14 March 2011 - 12:43 AM

This stuff is FUCKING amazing! I was able to learn how to drive only after 10 hours of practice on my lifetime!

MECHANISM
Pramiracetam enhances hippocampal cholinergic neuronal activity by increasing sodium-dependent high affinity choline uptake (HACU).

Pramiracetam enhances some aspects of spatial learning and memory in rats at dosages of 7.5 mg/kg and 15 mg/kg.

Pramiracetam significantly enhances the retention-memory of rats in testing.

Elevated steroid levels suppress the memory-enhancing effects of PIR, OXI, ANI, and PRAM. Adrenalectomized laboratory animals; chemical blockade of the adrenal cortex and mineralocorticoid antagonists, eradicated the memory-enhancing effect of all four substances.

Pramiracetam significantly improved memory, especially delayed recall in young males with memory and cognitive problems resulting from head injury and anoxia.

A dose of 300 mg/kg (i.p.) of Pramiracetam produced an approximately 20% increase in NOS activity in rat brain cortical homogenates but not in hippocampal homogenates; no significant changes were observed in NOS mRNA expression in the cortex and hippocampus.

Pramiracetam modulates the enzyme prolyl endopeptidase activity in the brain.

Pramiracetam enhances memory significantly, better than memory training in healthy elderly subjects.

Pramiracetam slightly increases synaptic responses mediated by AMPA.


PHARMACOKINETICS
Pramiracetam is safe and well tolerated in humans and animals.

Single oral dose of 400, 800, 1,200, and 1,600 mg of pramiracetam after an overnight fast. Mean (+/- SD) peak plasma concentrations of the four dose groups (2.71 +/- 0.54, 5.40 +/- 1.34, 6.13 +/- 0.71, 8.98 +/- 0.71 micrograms/mL) were attained between two to three hours following drug administration. The harmonic mean elimination half-life (4.5-6.5 hours), the mean total body clearance (4.45-4.85 mL/min/kg), the mean renal clearance (1.83-3.00 mL/min/kg), and the mean apparent volume of distribution (1.82-2.94 L/kg) were independent of dose, whereas the peak plasma concentrations and area under the curves increased as a linear function of dose.

Pramiracetam pharmacologic effect weakens and disappears as the optimum dosage is exceeded. High dose significantly increases Slow waves.

The kidney had the highest concentration of pramiracetam; the liver had the next highest concentration, and then the intestine, lung, muscle, heart, gonad, spleen, and sebum had the following highest concentrations, respectively. The drug was also detected in the brain. 0.7%.


NEUROPROTECTION & TREATMENTS
Pramiracetam restores EEG brain waves of aged rats to normal patterns.

Pramiracetam is able to prevent the amnesic effect and depletion of ACh by HC-3. It is also able to antagonize the neuromuscular-blocking effect of HC-3.

It is suggested that Pramiracetam exhibit its anti-amnesic effect through the regulation of the enzyme prolyl endopeptidase activity in the brain.

Pramiracetam reverses Scopolamine-induced alterations of choline transport and increases cerebral blood flow.

Pramiracetam, when compared to placebo, was able to partially reduce the amnesic effects induced by scopolamine both in young and in old subjects.

Pramiracetam protection on hypobaric hypoxia is only moderate.

PRAM and PIR shows considerable improvement during a complex treatment (disappearance of headache, dizziness, and nausea) in patients with mild craniocereberal trauma. Pramiracetam had better restoration of orientation and feeling. It was also more effective in patients with amnesia.


I don't have the source but it is mainly from PubMed.com.

Edited by Ichoose2live, 14 March 2011 - 12:58 AM.


#18 J. Galt

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Posted 15 March 2011 - 10:56 PM

I've tried it a number of times. First time, I became incredibly tired and had to sleep all day. Second time I just became very dull emotionally (zombie like). And all the times after that I was either zombie like, tired or had no effect. I didn't have any nootropic or otherwise desirable effects from pram. Just because it's been deemed "8-30 times stronger than piracetam" doesn't mean it's got any times more positive effects, just that in a clinical setting researchers can use 8-30 times less to get the chemical effects of it. Personally I find it to be a waste of money. Stick to ani, oxi or piracetam.

If others have any positive accounts of pramiracetam, I would be interested in hearing them.


I take 600mg of pram with 2400mg of piracetam and 400mg magnesium, once daily. I sometimes add 250mg of CDP Choline, but I feel as though the benefits are a lot more pronounced without it. I have most definitely seen positive effects, one being my ability to finally conquer the dual 4 back task and move up to dual 6 back. But this may be due to practice effects. However, I may stop taking it as a result of the 1995 study that showed increase neuronal Nitric Oxide Synthase, which supposedly too much of can be harmful. The only reason I resume it is because I believe that I am taking a much lower dose than that shown to increase nNOS in rats, of which a similar low dose in rats did not increase nNOS. It is expensive, yes; but, if you take 600mg a day only, and you buy 25g for $30 (as i did from cerebral health), than you are essentially getting a 41 day supply at a rate of $0.73/day. Luckily for me, the good people a Cerebral health sent me 30g for the same price, which made it even better.

It definitely does not make me tired, and it has increased my mood significantly, but, at times, I have noticed more blunt emotions when taking pram alone.

Also, You know that claim everyone makes after taking piracetam--everything seems "clearer"? Well, I only get that effect if I take it with CDP choline, and, although my sight is "clearer" (actually, it would be better stated that peripheral vision is simply more enhanced), with CDP I dont get as good of a nootropic boost (e.g., reading does not become easier and I oftentimes become "spacey"). However, taking CDP before bed and following up with the pram in the morning seems to be making this work a lot better.

In all, this may sound hypocritical and ironic, I would not advise taking pram until more knowledge on this "nitric oxide" thing emerges. I have been taking it for about 2 weeks.


P.S. Does anyone have any knowledge on nNOS, in regard to whether anything that may increase it should be avoided? Do antioxidants counter the effect?


I believe I've read that carnosine and aminoguanidine among others can modulate NOS activity. I'm going to be starting pramiracetam, centrophenoxine, ALT-711, and carnosine next week. From what I currently know and can remember, the problems with NOS has to do with NMDA excitotoxicity in addition to increased oxidation. It seems like the guys on the bodybuilding boards are starting to become aware of increasing NO for increased muscle pump increases oxidation. I would assume that most people on this board probably shouldn't worry too much about NMDA excitotoxicity or oxidative stress from pramiracetam since most of us are taking NMDA antagonists such as magnesium, huperzine A, etc. and antioxidants out the ass. Pramiracetam seems to me like it's nothing compared to amphetamine or anabolics, l-arginine, beta-alanine, and citrulline malate in increasing NO. Of course I have yet to try it, but anecdotally it seems like the NO problem is somewhat able to be mitigated with memantine and such for the hard hitting drugs like amphetamine. This is all I could dig up so far:

Zheng B, Zheng T, Wang L, Chen X, Shi C, Zhao S. Aminoguanidine inhibition of iNOS activity ameliorates cerebral vasospasm after subarachnoid hemorrhage in rabbits via restoration of dysfunctional endothelial cells. J Neurol Sci. 2010 Aug 15;295(1-2):97-103.



I believe that NO can increase amphetamine tolerance by exacerbating NMDA excitotoxicity and thus apoptosis of dopamine receptors (similar to parkinsonism). Of course, amphetamines will eventually kill brain cells all on their own, but NO accelerates this. In my personal experience, I watched my Adderall tolerance roughly double in six weeks due to my naive co-supplementation of arginine and ornithine, which both increase NOs.

Based on the subjective "speedy" feel I get from pramiracetam, my instinct is that combining it with NOS-enhancing supplements would be inadvisable, and prudent users may wish to take a strategically targeted neuroprotective supplement stack just to err on the side of caution. In addition to the NMDA antagonists and neuroprtective antioxidants you mentioned, some specific helpful supplements to protect against NMDA excitotoxicity and NO radicals are lithium orotate, pyroloquinoline quinone (PQQ), NADH, gamma tocopherol, tocotrienols, selenium, magnesium orotate, CoQ10/Ubiquinol, N-Acetyl Cysteine + vitamin C, vitamin B6/p5p, and green tea extract (particularly the more bioavailable phospholipid-bound "phytosome" formulations).

Additionally, I find my 500mg dose of pramiracetam to be most effective when taken with fish oil (or other fat source, e.g. Borage oil, CLA, or Sesamin), 250mg CDP-Choline, and 300mg Alpha GPC. I usually reserve it for studying, and during midterms/finals combine it with 750mg each of Oxi- and Aniracetam, while doubling the two choline sources. As I said, it's a bit "speedier" than the other racetams, followed (IMO) by oxi, ani, and finally pir, in that order.

#19 NG_F

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 08:49 AM

I would say carnosine seems like the best bet


I dont think that carnosine would modulate NOS expression as both Beta Alanine and carnosine work to increse NOS activity.

Many users experience intense vasodilatation/pumps from the very first dose of Beta-Alanine. Because Beta-Alanine increases carnosine and carnosine is a powerful precursor in generating nitric oxide synthase (a group of enzymes necessary for making the powerful vasodilator nitric oxide), this is an added, immediate benefit of Beta-Alanine.

This is also the agonist order: glycine >> β-alanine > taurine >> alanine, L-serine > proline). and carnosine is just recycled back into beta alanine.

I belive antagonists like Memantine, magnesium, taurine, NAC gamma tocopherols and huperazine-A could prove to be useful.

I was taking quite a bit of L-arginine and citruline to dilate my vessels and lower my blood pressure during workouts,but now I see I may have been indirectly causing more harm.

My BP shot up high during workouts as I'm on a small dose of Methyphenidate 10mg IR, and I'm going through inevitable benzo withdrawal as I refuse to increase my alprazolam dose any further,and unfortunately I've been on 4mg for 20 years.So I'm very sensitive to pressor effects of anything dopaminergic>noradrenergic. I should add in a ssri and switch to another benzo(but what?) that wont cause brain fog or depression, until I can commit to a well planned slow taper which I have learned to do from many users and literature I have read.

I take an ace inhibitor(trandolapril) and that controls my BP in general but I need something for when I'm energized as i suffered a caudate nucleus hemorrhage, so it's hard to get motivated and have any energy without the addition of methylphenidate.

I guess I can experiment with small precise doses of a Beta-blocker but I'm wondering if that would again cause fatigue and workout lethargy?

Any advice or words of wisdom would greatly be appreciated Posted Image


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#20 kenj

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 09:24 PM

I've only found Pramiracetam to be useful in conjunction with other supplements. By itself at the recommended "optimal" dosage (10mg/kg) it leaves me feeling tired. At the minimum clinical dosage (600mg bid) it left me feeling tired and on dose two it was nap time. In conjunction with other supplements I've found it to increase the overall effects on retention of material and reading comprehension, and the drowsiness side effect to be absent.


Hi Kikai93,

Old bump, but, which other supplements, if you don't mind me asking?




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