19 replies to this topic

[nuksukow]

I currently use DMAE as a choline source with my other noops. I've been curious about meclofenoxate as a possible substitution. I've heard DMAE described as the poor man's version of meclofenoxate. Since I'm not too poor, I was interested in seeing if using meclofenoxate instead of DMAE would yield better overall results. I find that noops have worked wonders for me, so I'm eager to really fine-tune my use.

Anyone have any thoughts or experiences? Thanks!

[nuksukow]

I currently use DMAE as a choline source with my other noops. I've been curious about meclofenoxate as a possible substitution. I've heard DMAE described as the poor man's version of meclofenoxate. Since I'm not too poor, I was interested in seeing if using meclofenoxate instead of DMAE would yield better overall results. I find that noops have worked wonders for me, so I'm eager to really fine-tune my use.

Anyone have any thoughts or experiences? Thanks!

Apologies. I used the advanced search function and found the answer I was looking for.

[albedo]

Also did some search but could not find a satisfactory answer.

I wonder if you can still comment on centrophenoxine (meclofenoxate) vs DMAE supplementation for prevention. Centrophenoxine's mechanism of action seems not clear and I assume its (cognitive) benefits are due to the DMAE content (e.g. raising phosphatidylcholine levels in the brain). Is it worth to complement DMAE with Centrophenoxine? Or drop DMAE? I am personally already taking low doses of DMAE with other cognitive boosters and considering Centrophenoxine too.

Maybe we can take Centrophenoxine to slow lipofuscin build up also in tissues other than the brain (e.g. heart)? This potential specific effect might me make dropping DMAE for it.

[bdoris]

Also did some search but could not find a satisfactory answer.

I wonder if you can still comment on centrophenoxine (meclofenoxate) vs DMAE supplementation for prevention. Centrophenoxine's mechanism of action seems not clear and I assume its (cognitive) benefits are due to the DMAE content (e.g. raising phosphatidylcholine levels in the brain). Is it worth to complement DMAE with Centrophenoxine? Or drop DMAE? I am personally already taking low doses of DMAE with other cognitive boosters and considering Centrophenoxine too.

Maybe we can take Centrophenoxine to slow lipofuscin build up also in tissues other than the brain (e.g. heart)? This potential specific effect might me make dropping DMAE for it.

There is no difference between DMAE and meclofenoxine - the latest is broken down in the liver in 4CPA and DMAE so in theory there are no differences except the bioavailability which will differ as they are in a very different form (meclofenoxate is an esterified DMAE). No data suggest that the second compount (4-CPA) has any effect so the only real difference will be the bioavailability.

On a side note, taking DMAE with Zinc or Ginkgo Biloba may be interesting as those compounds potentate the effects especially regarding the free radicals scavengers. At least in rats, but it is safe to assume the effects are similar in humans.

DMAE has also strong neuroprotective effects at higher doses (rats study and link for human study here) - my opinion of DMAE has gone up, I'll try at a later date taking a higher dose - therapeutic doses which will possibly have noticeable effects regarding learning, focus, etc.

Edited by bdoris, 29 May 2011 - 09:11 PM.

[nezxon]

Maybe we can take Centrophenoxine to slow lipofuscin build up also in tissues other than the brain (e.g. heart)? This potential specific effect might me make dropping DMAE for it.

I personally recommend taking Centrophenoxine instead of DMAE, specifically to reduce lipofuscin levels while still having all the same benefits of DMAE. It seems to me that Centrophenoxine is pretty much a complete replacement for DMAE, similar to how Idebenone seems to be a fairly direct improvement over CoQ10.

[albedo]

bdoris, nezxon, thank you both for your valuable inputs. I think both posts hints to me replacing DMAE with centrophenoxine (when I finish by DMAE stock). In Europe (where I live) centrophenoxine is easily available while i understand in US it is restricted by FDA decision. Interesting the comment on idebenone also available in Europe from the same reputed sources.

[iago]

bdoris, nezxon, thank you both for your valuable inputs. I think both posts hints to me replacing DMAE with centrophenoxine (when I finish by DMAE stock). In Europe (where I live) centrophenoxine is easily available while i understand in US it is restricted by FDA decision. Interesting the comment on idebenone also available in Europe from the same reputed sources.

I don't think it's restricted in the US.

[albedo]

bdoris, nezxon, thank you both for your valuable inputs. I think both posts hints to me replacing DMAE with centrophenoxine (when I finish by DMAE stock). In Europe (where I live) centrophenoxine is easily available while i understand in US it is restricted by FDA decision. Interesting the comment on idebenone also available in Europe from the same reputed sources.

I don't think it's restricted in the US.

My apologizes, you are probably right, I am not that familiar with the US market and must have confused with Deaner (DMAE p-acetamidobenzoate)

[albedo]

I ordered my centrophenoxine and will look at results (but do not expect miracles). As I also follow the LEF Forum I recollect a member reporting incredible results for age spots at doses of 3000 mg in the old version of the Forum. I am not prone to those doses though as I did not find studies supporting it. There were also interesting links you might find of interest.

I am also interested to know your centrophenoxine and/or DMAE doses you find effective.

[albedo]

A nice review of centrophenoxine/DMAE by WorldHealth.net:

http://www.worldheal...neuroenergizer/

[thedevinroy]

There is no difference between DMAE and meclofenoxine - the latest is broken down in the liver in 4CPA and DMAE so in theory there are no differences except the bioavailability which will differ as they are in a very different form (meclofenoxate is an esterified DMAE). No data suggest that the second compount (4-CPA) has any effect so the only real difference will be the bioavailability.

On a side note, taking DMAE with Zinc or Ginkgo Biloba may be interesting as those compounds potentate the effects especially regarding the free radicals scavengers. At least in rats, but it is safe to assume the effects are similar in humans.

DMAE has also strong neuroprotective effects at higher doses (rats study and link for human study here) - my opinion of DMAE has gone up, I'll try at a later date taking a higher dose - therapeutic doses which will possibly have noticeable effects regarding learning, focus, etc.

Great links! Your first link is not for DMAE but for meclofenoxate.

The main difference between the two is that meclofenoxate is a prodrug of DMAE, possibly giving more of a steady release much like Vyvanse gives a steady release of amphetamine. The liver enzymes take time to process the blood stream. (If you ask me, DMAE is gone in like 3 hours. I can't feel it for more than 1.5 hours at 350mg of tartrate.) I suspect the same of amino acids; for instance, Tyrosine is a precursor to L-Dopa. Phenylaline is a precursor to Tyrosine. Thus, Phenylaline is more likely to give a steady release and is often used in place of stimulants for that reason.

The scientific conclusion for the reason that meclofenoxate is superior in raising DMAE in the brain, is that it can cross the BBB better. I'm not sure how true that is... my reason sounds better. There must be enzymes in the brain that break down meclofenoxate... all it needs is a water molecule and some energy... looks like that way to me.

The study about using Zinc or Ginkgo to aid in the recovery in rats has to do with the fact that the rats were given peroxide to hyperage. This gave them hypertension, so the ginkgo prevented physical stress while the meclofenoxate aided in the oxidative stress. It's a synergy common with a lot of nootropics and vitamins. Sort of like how Vitamin C doesn't attack a cold directly, but it gives the immune system a break in fighting oxidative stress. If you have hypertension, then I definitely recommend taking ginkgo every day. Otherwise, it may not be necessary.

Zinc is a mineral used in a lot of processes in the blood, and it also has shown to act as an antioxidant. I stay away from Zinc because I eat enough red meat and nuts. It's a very hard to balance nutrient for myself in particular. The synergy with Zinc is most likely due to it's ability to regulate oxidative stress that the rats desperately needed. I believe Ginkgo is another powerful antioxidiant, not just a blood thinner like I use it for.

I'm pretty sure any powerful antioxidant will team up with meclofenoxate to help scout out free radicals.

May I say... "Poore lab rats."

Edited by devinthayer, 06 June 2011 - 05:33 PM.

[albedo]

There is no difference between DMAE and meclofenoxine - the latest is broken down in the liver in 4CPA and DMAE so in theory there are no differences except the bioavailability which will differ as they are in a very different form (meclofenoxate is an esterified DMAE). No data suggest that the second compount (4-CPA) has any effect so the only real difference will be the bioavailability.

On a side note, taking DMAE with Zinc or Ginkgo Biloba may be interesting as those compounds potentate the effects especially regarding the free radicals scavengers. At least in rats, but it is safe to assume the effects are similar in humans.

DMAE has also strong neuroprotective effects at higher doses (rats study and link for human study here) - my opinion of DMAE has gone up, I'll try at a later date taking a higher dose - therapeutic doses which will possibly have noticeable effects regarding learning, focus, etc.

...... The main difference between the two is that meclofenoxate is a prodrug of DMAE, possibly giving more of a steady release much like Vyvanse gives a steady release of amphetamine. The liver enzymes take time to process the blood stream. (If you ask me, DMAE is gone in like 3 hours. I can't feel it for more than 1.5 hours at 350mg of tartrate.) .....

Thank you devinthayer! Which dose of meclofenoxate would you take? I also did NOT feel much with DMAE tartrate at 125 mg. Meclofenoxate can start at 250 mg and I saw (anecdotal) reports of large effects on age spots and lipofuscin removal at doses as large as 3000 mg!

[thedevinroy]

Thank you devinthayer! Which dose of meclofenoxate would you take? I also did NOT feel much with DMAE tartrate at 125 mg. Meclofenoxate can start at 250 mg and I saw (anecdotal) reports of large effects on age spots and lipofuscin removal at doses as large as 3000 mg!

A common theme with prodrugs is the need to have an increased dose. This is because the molecule is larger, thereby 1mg of DMAE is going to have more DMAE than 1mg of Meclofenoxate.

Molar Mass of Meclofenoxate: 257.713 g/mol
Molar Mass of DMAE: 89.14 g/mol
257.713 / 89.14 = 2.89x different

Therefore, 1 mg of DMAE is in 2.89mg of Meclofenoxate. However, this does not include effectiveness of dose. I believe that because Meclofenoxate crosses the blood brain barrier, it doesn't get excreted as fast.

Before you throw straight DMAE out the window, try upping the DMAE tartrate. 350mg of DMAE Tartrate. It tastes great in fruit juice. It's sour/salty if you want to take it straight; it is kind of fun like a light buzz for me. Since it seems to be a short duration, I spike my drink with it frequently when I have work to do.

I have yet to find a really affordable source of powdered Meclofenoxate, so I can't give you personal advice on dosage. However, considering that you can't feel 125mg of DMAE tartrate, a 250mg dose of Meclofenoxate sounds reasonable if not a little low.

I don't have any age spots, but if you do, it's worth a shot.

Edited by devinthayer, 08 June 2011 - 11:40 PM.

[nezxon]

Thank you devinthayer! Which dose of meclofenoxate would you take? I also did NOT feel much with DMAE tartrate at 125 mg. Meclofenoxate can start at 250 mg and I saw (anecdotal) reports of large effects on age spots and lipofuscin removal at doses as large as 3000 mg!

I have yet to find a really affordable source of powdered Meclofenoxate, so I can't give you personal advice on dosage. However, I personally wouldn't hesitate to start at 250mg a dose. That sounds reasonable considering that you can't feel 125mg of DMAE tartrate.

I've recall reading that lipofuscin can be reduced even in smaller doses. Some of the information I've read seemed to indicate that lipofuscin levels were significantly reduced more as a result of prolonged usage rather than as a result of high doses. The doses in one study that removed lipofuscin was 80-120mg/kg in rats (about 1200mg in an average weight adult), but I do believe lipofuscin build-up removal/reduction is likely at lower doses over longer time periods. I take 250mg/day which, as devinthayer said, seems like a good dose to start.

Meclofenoxate powder isn't inexpensive, about 15% less than Oxiracetam the few places I've seen it, but at a dose of 250mg/day, you can get a year supply for under $65. I'm under the impression that as a prodrug it is superior in many ways (delivery/availability) than DMAE, but more than 100 times the cost. If finances aren't a problem, I go for the more efficient compound, but if cost is a factor, DMAE might be a better value.

[albedo]

Thank you devinthayer! Which dose of meclofenoxate would you take? I also did NOT feel much with DMAE tartrate at 125 mg. Meclofenoxate can start at 250 mg and I saw (anecdotal) reports of large effects on age spots and lipofuscin removal at doses as large as 3000 mg!

I have yet to find a really affordable source of powdered Meclofenoxate, so I can't give you personal advice on dosage. However, I personally wouldn't hesitate to start at 250mg a dose. That sounds reasonable considering that you can't feel 125mg of DMAE tartrate.

......I've recall reading that lipofuscin can be reduced even in smaller doses. Some of the information I've read seemed to indicate that lipofuscin levels were significantly reduced more as a result of prolonged usage rather than as a result of high doses. The doses in one study that removed lipofuscin was 80-120mg/kg in rats (about 1200mg in an average weight adult), but I do believe lipofuscin build-up removal/reduction is likely at lower doses over longer time periods.......

Thank you. Do you have a link to the study you mentioned? Doses might be even lower if I use body surface area (BSA) to calculate human equivalent dose, e.g. 100 mg/kg * 6/37 = 16 mg/kg for rat study (see http://www.fasebj.or.../3/659.abstract) but I will start at 125 or 250 mg. I am also prone generally to long term rather than higher doses.

[JChief]

I starting taking 250mg of centrophenoxine/meclofenoxate and although it creates a bit of a gassy side effect in the gut if taken on an empty stomach I am very impressed with this supplement. I feel an antidepressant effect and I am finding it increases my concentration. Next to Adderall/Dexedrine I feel this is the next best thing to concentrate. I had never paid attention to DMAE I just considered it a lesser supplement like Sam-E or some other overhyped supplement. I also am taking piracetam as well so maybe it's the combination of the two? But I figured starting at the low end of the usual dosages (250mg) that I wouldn't notice much. This stuff is a keeper if this keeps up. I will be studying much more efficiently. Right now my stack is AM/morning: piracetam powder (one heaping teaspoon), 250mg centrophenoxine, caffeine, 350 mg tyrosine (NALT), 500mg taurine PM/evening: EPA 660mg + DHA 500mg, 100mg uridine (TAU). I put ALCAR 500mg on hold since adding centro.

Adding the centro to my stack has given me an added level of mental energy and focus to the extent I'm surprised it isn't mentioned on this site more often. Glad I gave it a try. Next I'd like to experiment with CDP-Choline and see how it might combine with this stack. I am focused and mentally sharp as ever. Noopept was great for reading comprehension but it's only good in short spurts due to irritability after several weeks continual use and requires breaks. Since I'm only taking 250mg of centro I'm hoping I can sustain this added benefit. This stack is mood and cognition support that actually delivers!

Edited by JChief, 09 April 2012 - 01:09 PM.

[Junk Master]

I like centro too, especially when mega dosing piracetam but the bulk powder tastes terrible-- though it does have an oddly saccharine aftertaste that's almost pleasant. I've taken the bulk powder by the 1/2 - 3/4 teaspoon. I'd hardly compare the effect to Dex, though.

[parsons]

I like centro too, especially when mega dosing piracetam but the bulk powder tastes terrible-- though it does have an oddly saccharine aftertaste that's almost pleasant. I've taken the bulk powder by the 1/2 - 3/4 teaspoon. I'd hardly compare the effect to Dex, though.

i actually love the aftertaste

[JChief]

I like centro too, especially when mega dosing piracetam but the bulk powder tastes terrible-- though it does have an oddly saccharine aftertaste that's almost pleasant. I've taken the bulk powder by the 1/2 - 3/4 teaspoon. I'd hardly compare the effect to Dex, though.

Correct. Just so everyone knows this combination that includes centro is certainly no substitute for dextroamphetamine but it's the best solution I've come across that increases focus/alertness and therefore increases productivity.. without a prescription. Piracetam allows me to communicate more effectively and centro allows me to retain information and focus better is how I'd describe it.

Edited by JChief, 10 April 2012 - 06:51 AM.

[Junk Master]

If you want to get even closer to Dex, try adding 1/16-1/8 of a nicotine patch, and a good cup of fresh brewed coffee or gunpowder green tea.