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lithium orotate and curcumin


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#1 Nicholas

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 08:18 PM


It´s been a while since starting on the low dose lithium orotate. At 5 mg daily (some days 10 mg) it has been doing wonders for my mood stability.
I finally got to see a medical doctor who seemed to be a little crazy himself, although it may part of their proffesional role in levelling with their patients to achieve a better doctor-patient contact.
He agreed to have my renal function monitored in a couple of months. Finally.
During the past weeks I have also added turmeric root powder with black pepper to my regimen. This combo has been doing wonders for my social interactions. People do not seem threatening anymore, and it feels absolutely normal to look them in the eyes when speaking. Communication just flows really natural and sometimes I do "gestures" when talking to customers, which really is something I do not do in my mostly otherwise inhibited states (or more excited states).
Memory, verbal skills and executive function improved as well. Overall a much more clean experience than when using aniracetam alone, although it happens that I use it on occasion.
Although one can´t ever relax too much with this disease, it´s like things are finally about to change for the better. Effects are also much longer lasting than those I had on ani.


Current regimen:

Lithium orotate 5 mg once (sometimes twice) daily
Turmeric root powder with black pepper: Two teaspoons 2-3 times daily
Taurine: 5 grams at once when needed
L-theanine: Small heap in the palm of my hand when needed.

Oh... If you want to have a good laugh or cry in agony (going off-topic here) then feel free to google on my music from Saargarten Finale. It´s pretty twisted but catchy stuff ;D
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#2 Thorsten

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 10:54 PM

It´s been a while since starting on the low dose lithium orotate. At 5 mg daily (some days 10 mg) it has been doing wonders for my mood stability.
I finally got to see a medical doctor who seemed to be a little crazy himself, although it may part of their proffesional role in levelling with their patients to achieve a better doctor-patient contact.
He agreed to have my renal function monitored in a couple of months. Finally.
During the past weeks I have also added turmeric root powder with black pepper to my regimen. This combo has been doing wonders for my social interactions. People do not seem threatening anymore, and it feels absolutely normal to look them in the eyes when speaking. Communication just flows really natural and sometimes I do "gestures" when talking to customers, which really is something I do not do in my mostly otherwise inhibited states (or more excited states).
Memory, verbal skills and executive function improved as well. Overall a much more clean experience than when using aniracetam alone, although it happens that I use it on occasion.
Although one can´t ever relax too much with this disease, it´s like things are finally about to change for the better. Effects are also much longer lasting than those I had on ani.


Current regimen:

Lithium orotate 5 mg once (sometimes twice) daily
Turmeric root powder with black pepper: Two teaspoons 2-3 times daily
Taurine: 5 grams at once when needed
L-theanine: Small heap in the palm of my hand when needed.

Oh... If you want to have a good laugh or cry in agony (going off-topic here) then feel free to google on my music from Saargarten Finale. It´s pretty twisted but catchy stuff ;D


Is there a difference between curcumin and turmeric?

Lithium is in my thoughts. There isn't a day that goes by where i'm not screwing over potential combinations in my head. Basically I want protection from stress, less anhedonia, less depression with no detriment to my cognitive functioning. The only thing that concerns me about lithium is the fact that it decreases norepinephrine. I would be afraid that it might take something away from me. Have you noticed that you become less excited by stuff or does it increase anhedonia in any way?
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#3 pamojja

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 11:37 PM

Is there a difference between curcumin and turmeric?


Curcumin is one of the Curcuminoids, and a polyphenol found at aprox. 2% in the regular available spice turmeric.
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#4 caruga

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 11:10 AM

Although one can´t ever relax too much with this disease, it´s like things are finally about to change for the better.


What disease?
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#5 Nicholas

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 05:37 PM

[What disease?
[/quote]

Oh sorry about that. Undiagnosed but highly suspected bipolar disorder (probably bipolar 2) with rapid cycling and co-morbid social anxiety and very low stress threshold in general.
I found out the hard way when i used an antidepressant and enterered la-la land before crashing down in the ER.
I have not been officially diagnosed thorougly, but if I use any kind of antidepressant or st.johns wort it´s the "space race" for me ;)
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#6 Nicholas

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 05:55 PM

"Is there a difference between curcumin and turmeric?"

I believe turmeric is the root while curcumin is one of the actives.

"Lithium is in my thoughts. There isn't a day that goes by where i'm not screwing over potential combinations in my head. Basically I want protection from stress, less anhedonia, less depression with no detriment to my cognitive functioning. The only thing that concerns me about lithium is the fact that it decreases norepinephrine. I would be afraid that it might take something away from me. Have you noticed that you become less excited by stuff or does it increase anhedonia in any way?"
[/quote]

The first day i used lithium orotate was on a day that I felt what I then would have described as "pretty much at baseline". I took five milligram and got this huge huge crash. Just sat in my sofa and stared, wondering how on earth it could be so powerful given the small dose. I felt pretty numb emotionally, but also noticed that my social anxiety was very much reduced.
After that I took smaller doses, but felt that my mind adjusted to it. I´ve been on it for little more than a month.
It actually feels as if this drug is making my emotions deeper in a way, since they produce this stabilizing effect. What was "real" yesterday was "real" today as well. A-ha!
I guess it´s all about perspective. Spending more time in any mood state over a long time will make that state become "normal" eventually (unless talking about the extreme ends, which the sufferer often also percieves as normal. Ah forget it haha) Just my theory
Since adding turmeric there has been a big happy boost too. I WANT to look at women and talk to them. I don´t feel this damn fear everytime anyone looks at me.
Perhaps I have noticed some less excitement about things, but the thing with me is that I ususally get so excited that it gives me anxiety at the same time.
Imagine being a football player with an open goal. The supporters start screaming like crazed cave men, and before you now it your leg starts cramping ;)
So this hyperactive anxiety is of course lowered, but it´s replaced with ease and confidence too which in my opinion is a great trade.

Edited by Nicholas, 20 January 2011 - 05:56 PM.

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#7 Thorsten

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 11:49 AM

This is my 5th day now on Lithium. It's actually quite a strong supplement. 10mg was too much and actually gave me insomnia. 5mg seems to be ok and I still get the benefits that come with this. The Lithium world is an interesting one. Everything is slowed right down but my cognitive functioning remains the same. There is no dulling of emotional response at all (was my major concern) in fact I think it actually enhances this because I am now so at ease with everything around me it seems like I'm actually able to fully appreciate in a deeper way too.

I have also noticed that since starting Lithium when I listen to music I'll catch myself concentrating on the slower more rythmic tones of the tune, as if my brain is in meditation mode or something. Weird I know, but it was an interesting observation (normally my brain is going nuts with music I love).

There is a slight anti-depressant action to it which is kinda nice. Stress is reduced. My morning depression seems to be gone? Sleep is better but getting up on time is a new problem (although could also be related to magnesium I recently added in at night). Maybe I have noticed slight ED from this too? Libido is fine but yeah ED has surfaced for me.



There were side effects I noticed at 10mg (increased peeing, insomina, feeling sick) but these are not present at 5mg.

Edited by Thorsten, 24 January 2011 - 11:52 AM.

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#8 Nicholas

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 06:14 PM

Ah great to hear! So true about the emotions feeling deeper and everything making a bit more sense.
Isn´t it funny? How lithium at these dosages can have such a profound mental impact?
I guess being a bit bipolar helps though ;)





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#9 Thorsten

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 09:53 PM

Ah great to hear! So true about the emotions feeling deeper and everything making a bit more sense.
Isn´t it funny? How lithium at these dosages can have such a profound mental impact?
I guess being a bit bipolar helps though ;)


Yeah I've always wondered whether I was bi-polar but the fact I am reacting so positively to this does add weight to my original suspicions!

For now all I need is lithium, fish oil, a carb/n-6 restricted diet, weight training and I walk at least 7 miles every day. I also take some anti-oxidants but that's it. It is pretty ironic how I have experimented with every supplement/nootropic/pharmaceutical going and I have ended up with something so simple. So this helps with wellbeing, now I need to start putting my focus into things that might possibly result in me being happy. Who knows I may even get there one day.

I may even go up to 10mg at some point, not sure about you but I did actually enjoy the effects at 10mg it was just the insomnia that was the main sticking point. It made me feel a bit high at that dose and my body couldn't wind down for the night.
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#10 niner

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 10:57 PM

Ah great to hear! So true about the emotions feeling deeper and everything making a bit more sense.
Isn´t it funny? How lithium at these dosages can have such a profound mental impact?
I guess being a bit bipolar helps though ;)

I wonder if that has anything to do with it? The therapeutic dose of lithium for bipolar is pretty large; way more than 5 or 10mg, like thirty to two hundred times higher. This makes me think that there's probably more than one mechanism of action; one at low dose and something different going on that's exploited by the high dose regimes. A lot of people get a big bang out of lithium, but I've been taking 5mg of the orotate for months now and can't put my finger on anything obvious. I seem to be generally calm and happy, maybe more than before, but it's not like someone flipped a switch.
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#11 onetimevisit

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 07:54 AM

oui Niner
You just fu*ked up, giving really dangerous advice. "way more than 5 or 10mg, like thirty to two hundred times higher"

The benefits and toxicities of Lithium are determined by the total quantity of elemental lithium. Lithium Carbonate has a dramaticly less elemental lithium per unit mass than lithium orate. The reality is that a single dose of lithium orate at lithium carbonate doses will destroy the renal system. Do you have health insurance, would this insurance be void?

Lithium works through a similar method to norepinephrine.

Glad things are going well for you nicholas, it doesnt sound like you describing bipolar 2 to me, bit more honest hmm..K?
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#12 Thorsten

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 08:37 AM

oui Niner
You just fu*ked up, giving really dangerous advice. "way more than 5 or 10mg, like thirty to two hundred times higher"

The benefits and toxicities of Lithium are determined by the total quantity of elemental lithium. Lithium Carbonate has a dramaticly less elemental lithium per unit mass than lithium orate. The reality is that a single dose of lithium orate at lithium carbonate doses will destroy the renal system. Do you have health insurance, would this insurance be void?

Lithium works through a similar method to norepinephrine.

Glad things are going well for you nicholas, it doesnt sound like you describing bipolar 2 to me, bit more honest hmm..K?


He wasn't advising to take that amount of Lithium Orotate he was just using that as an example to question the OP's statement about being bi-polar. I wasn't sure whether Niner knows the exact values of elemental Lithium in both Carbonate and Orotate. Was he suggesting that you'd need to take up to 300 times more of Orotate for it to be used for something like bi-polar? I would guess it would be totally unsafe, and you'd need to stick with trusty old Carbonate in this instance. My understanding was that Lithium Orotate was just a more potent version (more elemnental Lithium gets into the cells) so it would be like drinking a shot of whisky instead of a light beer. Not abusing it and taking a ridiculous amount would be advisable.

Although you are quite right to pinpoint the fact that it comes down to elemental Lithium and therefore you cannot really compare them both especially when advising about what dosages to take. They should be treated seperately and not talked about in the same breath for safety reasons.

Heck everyone seems to have an opinion about Lithium. A lot of people seem to get confused about the difference between Carbonate and Orotate, some even think that Orotate is toxic in whatever dose you take it.

It's definitely doing something good to my head. Upon actually taking the time in reading the description on bi-polar I would guess I don't have this. I was orginally thinking I may have it but on a lesser scale (my moods do swing) but this could be anything. I certainly don't swing from mania to depression and back again (although if I take certain drugs they can induce mania). I suffer with chronic dysthymia but I do also have periods where I become elevated again, but it isn't destructive in any way.

Edited by Thorsten, 25 January 2011 - 08:46 AM.

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#13 Nicholas

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 06:31 PM

Glad things are going well for you nicholas, it doesnt sound like you describing bipolar 2 to me, bit more honest hmm..K?
[/quote]

Well I don´t really know what my issues are exactly. But how does one know? I´ve been very depressed at times since being a teenager. Seeing no hope or future at all. I got manic and psychotic after using zoloft, but I also had a couple of seizures when I was 11-15.
Perhaps my mania was mostly epilepsy related, since zoloft can cause seizures to happen. I´ve read that epilepsy and bipolar have a lot in common symptom wise.
I may be able to stretch it to bipolar 3 (cyclothymia with some co-morbid stuff such as social anxiety). My depressions have not been suicidal. Maybe that is a criteria for bipolar 2?
But I don´t really care what I have, as long as it is under control =)
All I know is that it is not pms...
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#14 onetimevisit

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 04:04 AM

But I don´t really care what I have, as long as it is under control =)
All I know is that it is not pms...


LOL, I understand that and there is little value in more knowledge.
If you were to write down ever symptom on this page, and then ask the question what does this most resemble?

How many metabolic enhancers are you taking, as i believe these would help you alot.
q10,ACLAR,r-ALA,ribose,creatine,tyrosine,I2 etc
Could be good to get a doc to aprove supplement lisit with Li
Last post,
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#15 niner

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 05:16 AM

oui Niner
You just fu*ked up, giving really dangerous advice. "way more than 5 or 10mg, like thirty to two hundred times higher"

The benefits and toxicities of Lithium are determined by the total quantity of elemental lithium. Lithium Carbonate has a dramaticly less elemental lithium per unit mass than lithium orate. The reality is that a single dose of lithium orate at lithium carbonate doses will destroy the renal system. Do you have health insurance, would this insurance be void?

Actually, you have it backwards. Lithium carbonate has more lithium per unit mass than the orotate salt. 73.9g of Li2CO3 provides 2 moles of Li+, while 162g of Li Orotate yields only 1 mole of Li+. Thus there's about four times as much lithium per unit mass in carbonate as in orotate. I very much doubt that a single dose of lithium orotate at a level of, say, one gram would "destroy the renal system", though I'm in no way suggesting that anyone try it. The only point of the dose comparison that I made was, as Thorsten pointed out, to suggest that the OP probably wasn't bipolar.
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#16 onetimevisit

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Posted 26 January 2011 - 09:34 AM

You have proved me wrong, I apolgise for my blunt wording and poor scientific method. Sorry

As thorstein said Orotate has a far longer half life. Orotate the cation actually looks to be really interesting RNAploymerase etc. May enhance CNS delievery
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#17 longevitynow

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 01:50 AM

I think Jonathan Wright's article on nutritional lithium is one of the most definitive, seminal, and well documented articles out there. Here are his thoughts,

"As I mentioned earlier, some of these studies used rather high doses of lithium. And in some instances, as in the case of manic depression, doses as high as 90 to 180 milligrams of elemental lithium from 900 to 1800 milligrams of lithium carbonate are necessary. Quantities of lithium in that range must be monitored closely to guard against overdose and toxicity.

But you really don’t need large amounts to improve your “every-day” brain function. Studies have repeatedly shown that substantially lower amounts of lithium can significantly improve brain function (as reflected in behavior).

The amounts of lithium I recommend for brain anti-aging range from 10 to 20 milligrams (from lithium aspartate or lithium orotate) daily. I’ve actually been recommending these amounts since the 1970s. At first I was exceptionally cautious and asked all of my patients taking lithium to have regular “lithium level” blood tests and thyroid function tests. After a year or so, I quit asking for the lithium level blood tests, since 100 percent of them came back very low. Another year after that, I stopped requesting routine thyroid function tests, too, only doing one when I was suspicious of a potential problem. In the 30 years since, I’ve rarely found one."

The nutritional lithium orotate tablets/capsules usually contain 4.8 or 5 mgs of elemental lithium, and his experience is that 1-2 of these tablets, 2x a day is usually the best nutritional dose.

I met him at a conference last month, and he is is extremely devoted to nutritional medicine and against drugs in most cases, even fairly benign ones, unless there is no nutritional solution for the condition.

Here is a link to his article:

http://tahomaclinicb...mineral-part-1/
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#18 clathrategun

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 07:10 PM

The thing that kind of throws a kink into the "low dose has a different mechanism" hypothesis is that a low dose of lithium carbonate has none or very few of the benefits of an equivalent dose of lithium orotate when  compared as elemental value. I am diagnosed bipolar and my medical doctor allowed me to bridge from 900mg Li2Co3 to also approximately 900mg lithium orotate. My symptoms are better controlled than before except with no side effects. 

 

I cannot find a study that is not behind a paywall about this, but the proposed mechanism by dozens of people many of whom are indeed medical doctors is that instead of forcing a high concentration gradient to push the lithium into the cells, thus incurring the blood level that must be monitored and inducing side effects, is that the orotic acid actually helps transport the lithium into the cells.  The difference in elemental weight is huge. 900mg of carbonate contains 180mg of elemental lithium while my dose of 875mg contains only 30mg. 

 

The study that proposed that lithium orotate simply does not easily clear the kidneys used equivalent elemental dosages for both, which is entirely ludicrous.

 

I hope some of you read this and help to pass this message along in other places. It is ridiculous for doctors to be used something that is insanely finicky, rife with side effects (my friend takes fucking COMPAZINE to combat the nausea Li2Co3 gives her) and honestly outright dangerous when there is something that works with equivalent efficacy that is not any of those things. 


Edited by clathrategun, 10 April 2014 - 07:24 PM.

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#19 Godof Smallthings

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 02:19 AM


I hope some of you read this and help to pass this message along in other places. It is ridiculous for doctors to be used something that is insanely finicky, rife with side effects (my friend takes fucking COMPAZINE to combat the nausea Li2Co3 gives her) and honestly outright dangerous when there is something that works with equivalent efficacy that is not any of those things.

 

Regulatory bodies make an assessment based on the studies they have available, and doctors tend to follow the advice of regulatory bodies.

 

If the weight of the evidence in accepted clinical trials favours lithium orotate, it is likely it will be used instead of lithium carbonate - I tend not to look to conspiracies as first hand explanations for phenomena, although conspiracies do occur from time to time.

 

The latest Pubmed Article on lithium orotate is written by an MD who seems to be of the opinion that renal clearance differences following injection of a large dose of lithium orotate vs. lithium carbonate in rats somehow predicts the rate of a small oral dose of lithium orotate in humans.

I agree it seems very strange that nobody has decided to trial low dose lithium orotate for bipolar disorder given the relatively complicated and risky handling of lithium carbonate. Do they really think those lithium injection studies in rats performed in the 1970s are enough to discredit its potential usefulness?


Edited by Godof Smallthings, 11 April 2014 - 02:31 AM.

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#20 clathrategun

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 02:46 AM

e: caught ya before the edit, take this for what it is

 

I was unclear; I wasn't hoping to sway mainstream medical science as whole, only to point out the inefficacy of this very particular facet of the medication doctors are taught how to use and prescribe. The balance of the evidence will surely never swing toward lithium orotate for a couple reasons, being that lithium carbonate is thoroughly researched as it is the gold standard in treatment of bipolar 1, and that it is not possible to patent and therefore would result in a patient walking out of a general practitioners office with a recommendation for a 'dietary supplement'. Unlikely.. But there is a hefty bulk of anecdotal information on the efficacy of it, and (unfortunately only one) study showing its efficacy in alcoholism.  A doctor may still see the rationale behind how it works as reasonable and allow a patient to take this instead of lithium carbonate under their care if it's presented to them by a patient that hears these things, maybe with blood tests if they think it's warranted.

 

For those who choose to medicate themselves without the care of a doctor, the information is also valuable. It also adds to the discussion as far as lower doses doing something vs. lithium orotate being more effective.

 

As for your edit.. I know right? One would hope that some buzz on the internet could prompt somebody's interest in doing a study.. I'll do it myself if I ever make it through school, heh.

 

Here's some very interesting info about orotic acid salts of electrolytes in general,  grain of salt of course: http://www.lithiumor.../hansnieper.php


Edited by clathrategun, 11 April 2014 - 03:06 AM.

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