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Possible Brain Damage - Excessive DMT Use [Serotonin Receptors]


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#1 Hypothermic

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 08:03 AM


I have been consuming DMT (N,N-Dimethyltryptamine) with reasonable purity for several days now; some may even say excessive use. Small traces of Naphtha may have been present in the samples I smoked -- and I experienced nothing but positive and life-changing experience with my usage during all previous sessions. I did notice a marked increase in tolerance and the need to smoke more to reach the hallucinogenic state I had experienced with previous consumption.


However, the last 2 inhalations of DMT produced a terrible experience: my surroundings became terrifying and ugly, objects had dark motifs, my keyboard and bed had rotted away in front of me, I imagined my lifeless body in my mind's eye, I felt trapped and alone. It was a horrible psychotic state with delusions and hallucinations in which I thought there was no return; finding myself rolling on the ground crying "I'm dying" whilst calling the names of my closest friends. I found communicating about my experience to a close friend regarding the overall state of my psyche and the experience to be very therapeutic, and will be continuing therapy. My 3rd previous experience was the most profound experience to date, this was with with the presence of my roommate.



After my DMT experiences, I have learned to become more aware of life in general and have never noticed how much of conscience existence is not actively acknowledged. The setting was my room, the walls are a dark and upsetting pink color, my carpet is filthy, and I was alone. I told several individuals that my experiences tend to be more disturbing than pleasant when I am alone. I suffer from OCD, paranoia, thought disorders and complexes, further making this moment in life very hard to overcome and move on with. I am terrified I have caused permanent damage to not only my psyche but the physical state of my brain. I look around and see nothing but dark lighting, cold winter-like days, dirt, grime, anything that I would find imperfect. With my various thought disorders and perfectionism further developing as I age, I find this even more upsetting. I have not been in school for several years, and feel I am a failure, can't learn, and genetically defective. I focus on all the errors that are in my being such as my problem of spelling, writing, and speech problems I face at times. I am further upset that my mother may have cancer; she suffered from depression and anorexia as a child, and as such, she has her own psychological problems that may have manifested themselves in myself from being exposed to her being during my development.


With damage to my left and right thumb, clumsy behaviors and various mistakes throughout life, this places me in an even lower state of self-worth and more frequent self-defeating thoughts. I have been experiencing slight headaches and currently experience the pain in the center-left part of my head, near the ear. With what I have read, excessive DMT use may cause serotonin syndrome, but after a look-up of the symptoms, I did not experience many of them, and what I read wasn't able to answer my concerns completely.


Is there any damage I should be concerned about with my usage and any brain damage from possible serotonin syndrome or impurities? I'm seeking any nootropics that will help me recover from my use.

#2 onetimevisit

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 11:13 AM

I get annoyed by recreational drug users, who panic about brain damage. Yes some drugs are profoundly bad for the brain including opiodes,dissassociatives etc.
A drug induced difficult psychological experience is just a different experience of reality, typically the result is not negative for neurocognition, you come down and resolve the dilemias that caused the distress.
Negative effects in cognition could result from ongoing obsessive negative thought patterns, this can and will result in a mild form a repairable neurological damage. Ongoing Psychosis is a particularly bad form of this, which does lead to profound changes in the psyologiy of the brain.
So really it boils down to people taking personal responability for the mindset, the world is beautiful and fall of opportunities.

I would be rather cautious of smoking DMT.

Edited by onetimevisit, 13 February 2011 - 11:17 AM.

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#3 Mindweaver

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 03:15 PM

Onetimevisit needs to learn to spell the name of the substances he's speaking about before he thinks he's ready to express the 'knowledge' he has to offer.

Honestly, you'll search the internet for ages trying to find an answer to your 'did I cause damage question," and you won't find it. If you want to see if you've actually done damage you should go to a doctor and have tests done, only then will you know (by the most efficient methods used in the medical field) a relatively accurate answer to your question. On this forum, if you take it seriously with research, you'll probably learn of nootropics like Piracetam, ALCAR, Choline and more, but no sound evidence will be found to state whether or not these substances are safe and effective for any potential condition you have.
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#4 tdmonster99

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 03:46 AM

What you have experienced is VERY similar to my story.

For reference:
http://www.mindandmu...opic=39360&st=0
http://www.longecity...642#entry347642

I had the exact same concern with naptha the last time I tried DMT since it wasn't the cleanest of product, but naptha has zero effect when vaporized so don't worry about that. After dealing with this for close to two years, my best advice is to treat any conditions you had prior to your incident. For me that was getting my depressive symptoms in check. There will be no magic nootropic so don't bank on that route. You are not permanently damaged, you have just been given a different perspective and that is something that is hard to unsee. Honestly, treat the underlying symptoms and what will help more holistically then trying to take a nootropic as a cure-all. Even though ALCAR did help significantly with cognition, haha.
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#5 onetimevisit

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 04:13 AM

"I don't give a damn for a man that can only spell a word one way." -- Mark Twain

As you can still string a sentence together it is unlikely that any professional can make any determination of neurological damage. That is unless you have exstensive psychological profiling conducted recently proir to the event. Maybe inferences

#6 niner

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 05:46 AM

hypothermic, I agree with tdmonster99. You are unlikely to have brain damage. You went into this with a lot of problems, picked a bad setting for solitary tripping, and had a bad time. You probably need some time to get over this disturbing event. You can improve your recovery by eating right, exercising, and sleeping properly. You will undoubtedly benefit from therapy to address your underlying problems, so I do hope you continue that. Another thing you might try is to find beautiful places to hang out. Good architecture is a balm for the soul. You might consider painting your room; after I did some work on my surroundings I was kind of surprised at what a lift it gave to my mood. Pick a color for the walls that looks good in the store, then go two shades lighter. It's hard to go wrong with white semigloss for the trim. Consider a lighting upgrade, too. Sounds like darkness is bumming you out. I hope that you're feeling better soon.

#7 Ichoose2live

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 07:35 AM

I would try Bacopa, it has powerful antioxidant and modulator effects on the brain. [Article] ''Bacopa, called bacosides A and B, help repair damaged neurons by enhancing proteins involved in the regeneration of neural-cell synapses. These are the relay stations of the brain that facilitate the transmission of neural impulses. Thus Bacopa can be viewed as a neural nourisher, restoring depleted synaptic activity and leading to enhanced memory function.'' Bacopa monnieri is also called Brahmi, a name derived from Brahma, the creator god of the Hindu pantheon of deities. Bacopa has clearly demonstrated to regulates the neurotransmitters GABA and Serotonin when they are up-regulated and down-regulated :
Upregulation of 5-HT2C receptors in hippocampus of pilocarpine-induced epileptic rats: antagonism by Bacopa monnieri.
Down-regulation of cerebellar 5-HT(2C) receptors in pilocarpine-induced epilepsy in rats: therapeutic role of Bacopa monnieri extract.
Behavioral deficit and decreased GABA receptor functional regulation in the hippocampus of epileptic rats: effect of Bacopa monnieri.
Decreased GABA receptor in the striatum and spatial recognition memory deficit in epileptic rats: effect of Bacopa monnieri and bacoside-A.
Behavioral deficit and decreased GABA receptor functional regulation in the cerebellum of epileptic rats: effect of Bacopa monnieri and bacoside A.

6g/day and higher of Fish oil won't hurt you as well. Next to this, I would try supplements that boost NGF, like ALCAR, Lion's mane and Idebenone. This might be the safest experiments in this particular case. Bacopa can be ranked as one of the best Nootropics for Neuroprotection, antioxidant, consolidation and brain reparation. After two weeks of Bacopa supplementation, I would add Piracetam without any Choline to give you a boost in mood and orient your thoughts positively.

Edited by Ichoose2live, 14 February 2011 - 07:56 AM.


#8 Hypothermic

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 05:38 PM

Thank you for your comments, Ichoose2live. I have all of these various nootropics and supplements besides Bacopa, and have began taking pure fish oil and will increase dosage as recommended and continue with treatment.

It's been 4-5 days after the bad DMT trip; I have some intracranial pressure, I am under extreme stress with respect to personal friends, work, university, and my mental and physical health; and so am unable to say this pressure is coincidence or related to DMT my excessive DMT use. I do believe I'm experiencing troubles with memory and global cognition, but as I I do suffer from thought disorders and OCD, I am unable to tell of my current state of mind is causing psychosomatic symptoms.

Note: I do physical feel as if I have a headache, symptoms have lasted for about 4 days. I had 3 glasses of red wine about 14 hours ago, slept for about 5 hours, unable to discern if headache is a hangover or the previous intracranial pressure I have been experiencing.

I would try Bacopa, it has powerful antioxidant and modulator effects on the brain. [Article] ''Bacopa, called bacosides A and B, help repair damaged neurons by enhancing proteins involved in the regeneration of neural-cell synapses. These are the relay stations of the brain that facilitate the transmission of neural impulses. Thus Bacopa can be viewed as a neural nourisher, restoring depleted synaptic activity and leading to enhanced memory function.'' Bacopa monnieri is also called Brahmi, a name derived from Brahma, the creator god of the Hindu pantheon of deities. Bacopa has clearly demonstrated to regulates the neurotransmitters GABA and Serotonin when they are up-regulated and down-regulated :
Upregulation of 5-HT2C receptors in hippocampus of pilocarpine-induced epileptic rats: antagonism by Bacopa monnieri.
Down-regulation of cerebellar 5-HT(2C) receptors in pilocarpine-induced epilepsy in rats: therapeutic role of Bacopa monnieri extract.
Behavioral deficit and decreased GABA receptor functional regulation in the hippocampus of epileptic rats: effect of Bacopa monnieri.
Decreased GABA receptor in the striatum and spatial recognition memory deficit in epileptic rats: effect of Bacopa monnieri and bacoside-A.
Behavioral deficit and decreased GABA receptor functional regulation in the cerebellum of epileptic rats: effect of Bacopa monnieri and bacoside A.

6g/day and higher of Fish oil won't hurt you as well. Next to this, I would try supplements that boost NGF, like ALCAR, Lion's mane and Idebenone. This might be the safest experiments in this particular case. Bacopa can be ranked as one of the best Nootropics for Neuroprotection, antioxidant, consolidation and brain reparation. After two weeks of Bacopa supplementation, I would add Piracetam without any Choline to give you a boost in mood and orient your thoughts positively.





#9 Thorsten3

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 08:05 PM

Sure these things can really help ease the pain but time is the best healer. Don't want to worry you but it took me a few years to get over whatever damage it was I had done to my brain through chronic MDMA/cannabis use. Although to be fair the rate at which I have improved since joining this site (Been a member for a year and a lurker before that for about a year) has been incredible. The first few years following my abuse of drugs included a diet which was a disgrace actually, it was no wonder I was suicidal living off pot noodles and pizza. I am convinced to this day that I did significant damage to my 5ht system. I did about 120 pills during that time, cut with god knows what and boy did I suffer for the following years. I also think that cannabis played a significant role in the damage too.

I would urge you to get a serious regimen going (hence your thread!) and nail all of the areas. Diet should be your primary focus and then get your supplements in on top to help speed this painful process. I just wish I was more educated back then - 6yrs it took for me to start seeing the light and it all started when I first discovered this site and dabbled with piracetam. I discovered that there was stuff out there apart from the shitty SSRI's that could help me, but I'd be the one looking for it and it was totally my responsibilty.

How do you know you've done long term damage? You say it's only been 4 days since the last trip?

If you're after supplements I suppose Bacopa is pretty good. Idebenone is awesome. Curcumin, resveratrol, lithium orotate... Tianeptine might be worth a shot. I don't recommend these things together it's just stuff to consider. The only reason I mention anti-oxidants here too is due to the fact that if you have done damage you are going to need all the protection you can get from everyday stress so your brain doesn't get hit by further damage. The feeling of not being able to function or cope is probably quite an obvious sign that your brain is not doing well. Unlike me though you are getting straight in here to sort this out so I admire you for that, presuming you have done damage of course.

I am not very educated on the benefits of increasing NGF - when I gave Lion's Mane an experimental attempt and it made me even more chronically depressed so I wouldn't expect miracles from that one imo. Idebenone does this as well though.

I wasn't aware that DMT was such a toxic drug??? That shows my ignorance. I have some ayahuasca, still to try, which has DMT as the main ingredient. I have seen a study where they showed locals who ingested it more regularly actually had increased 5HT levels due to upregualtion of this system.

Good luck anyway.

Edited by Thorsten, 14 February 2011 - 08:24 PM.


#10 ultranaut

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 12:21 AM

I remember the first time I extracted DMT. It is definitely some incredible stuff, and it's easy to lose sight of the proper respect it deserves because of that. Unlike most who find themselves in your circumstance, you have realized you are just smashing your head into a wall. From my own personal experience I'd say that a few weeks of regular sleep without the consumption of any further psychedelic substances (including pot) is what you really need. I'm not one to advocate sobriety, but the machine elves aren't going anywhere. Your brain is almost definitely fine, I'd say it's probably better than most since you seem to be smart and self-aware. You've just been a bit rough on it.

#11 Rimas

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 09:22 PM

I have had friends go down this road. From their experience, 5-HTP, melatonin, rhodiola rosea, meditation, sleep was the best treatment. You need to readjust your biorythm. This might help. I am sorry if I wasn't thorough enough, I am in a rush.

#12 Ark

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 05:53 PM

plenty of fluids , exercise , and stablon, ashwangda , bacopa*good call & cerebryslin.

#13 Rimas

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 09:02 PM

Also forgot to mention to supplement L-tryptophan for the same matter.

#14 Hypothermic

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 02:06 AM

Also forgot to mention to supplement L-tryptophan for the same matter.


I would like to say that I am recovering very well, and plan to continue to do so. I have added exercises to my recovery regimen and I have already noticed cognitive benefits and an increases state of well-being and self worth.

Supplements include:

5g Fish Oil
2g Piracetam
500mg Acetyl L-Carnitine
Whey Protein
Phosphantidlyl-Serine
5-HTP
Ashwagandha
Lion's Mane
L-Tryptophan
Vinpocetine
Gingko Biloba
L-Lysine
Coconut Oil
L-Arganine
Zinc
Magnesium

I plan to continue with this regimen for several more weeks and document my new state: exercise, a stricter diet, and steady n-back training will provide further supplementation to my regimen.

#15 hooter

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 10:40 AM

First and foremost: DON'T LISTEN TO PEOPLE TELLING YOU TO TAKE CHOLINE! CHOLINE IS ANTI-DOPAMINERGIC AND MAKES OCD WORSE!

There's also some evidence to suggest that vinpocetine can cause or worsen depression. Furthermore note that you are mixing a lot of thyroid boosting and serotonin inhibiting substances. Do not add bacopa unless you stop 5-htp and tryptophan. Remove Lion's Mane if you can: it's full of iron and its interactions with other things are entirely unknown.

Now to the DMT itself:

DMT nor psilocybin cause any brain damage. Reminder that indole hallucinogens should only be taken in clean and completely dark rooms in meditative rituals after at least 2-3 days of no sexual activity. What irks me is that people seem to believe that these substances are recreational, despite ample historical and medical evidence to suggest otherwise. You just had a bad psychological state and DMT decided to tell you that it's a bad idea at that moment. I don't see anything out of the ordinary happening here. DMT can be metaphorically described as a plant spirit, a teacher. If used improperly or in unstable condition, it will inevitably chastise you.

Psilocybin (4-ho-dmt), a very close relative, has actually been shown to have long-term benefits for ocd. Maybe what you are an experiencing is an increased awareness of these symptoms.

In a controlled clinical environment,

psilocybin

was safely used in subjects with

OCD

and was associated with acute reductions in core

OCD

symptoms in several subjects.



The naphta should be negligible. For anyone interested, use a Limonene based DMT extraction and recrystallize at least once. The DMT didn't cause the damage, it simply made you aware of things that you were not aware of before. This is what it does. Filters out, perception in. It's then up to the person and their psychological integrity to deal with the new information. Seeing as you were in a difficult position to begin with, this is the consequent result.

You don't seem to be exhibiting any sort of brain damage whatsoever. The only thing I noticed that has changed about you is your willingness to change. You recognize your flaws and are motivated to fight against them and solve your problems now.

Edited by hooter, 30 January 2012 - 10:58 AM.

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#16 cosmos909

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 04:24 PM

I think even Anthony Robbins could give some quidance here along with the bible (altough I'm not relgious): Seek and you shall find. Our minds works to answer all your questions and focus on to find them - and they will give you an answer if you repeat the question (thought pattern) enough - always - wether you've done DMT or not. If anyone ask; "Do I have any symptoms of brain damage?" that person will soon enough get a ton of evidence suggesting this. Watch your questions. You are NOT brain damaged. However you should proboally make sure that you eat right, sleep right, get some excercise and keep away from hallucinogens for a while and starting to ask better questions like "Why am I good?" for example - hence you will soon enough recieve answers why.. and prior to that seriously quilckly learn how to pactice mindfullness. Then you will feel better again and integrate everything to a better more insightful life.

#17 golden1

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 05:36 PM

DMT nor psilocybin cause any brain damage.

this

Reminder that indole hallucinogens should only be taken in clean and completely dark rooms in meditative rituals after at least 2-3 days of no sexual activity. What irks me is that people seem to believe that these substances are recreational, despite ample historical and medical evidence to suggest otherwise.


I completely disagree, that is one way of taking them sure....but you're really missing out if you take things so seriously and force yourself to take them under those conditions every time. And they are recreational, they can easily produce fun experiences.
"despite ample historical and medical evidence to suggest otherwise." --- suggesting that they aren't fun? lol? things can have more than one use.

anyway old topic
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#18 Hypothermic

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 06:08 PM

I feel a lot better. I overreacted when writing this. Never felt better.






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