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Amphetamine Neurotoxicity Reduction/Prevention


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#91 Delta Gamma

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Posted 24 June 2011 - 06:12 PM

I'll go through your post more when I have the time to, but it seems like a very interesting lead. Part of me thinks it might be due to the DA/ACh balance in the brain but I'm not sure.

But, great work man keep it up


Thanks! :)

==

Hey Delta Gamma, are you still planning to leave this forum for bluelight? I saw the bluelight discussion, but the people there tend to make short non-comprehensive replies. This still seems like the best place to discuss stuff (there's also reddit's psychopharmacology, but the problem with reddit is that you can't top old threads like the one here, so ALL threads inevitably die). Which isn't the case here.

There might be some "stupid" questions here, but you can always choose to ignore them (just find some creative excuse). It's what ultimately happens in threads like these. Longecity is still the best place I've found for discussions like this.


Haha I'm still reading through your stuff and trying to get some background on arousal/memory.

I think I'll pop back and forth between the sites, the bluelight.ru thread is more because those kind of users could use a lot of help as far as harm reduction goes. I'll admit this kind of site is pretty good for discussion but it seems to come in waves, Mind and Muscle just seems like more of a abstract dumping ground than a discussion forum the more time I spend there.

I think I'll stick around here as long as the discussions good :)

#92 Delta Gamma

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Posted 24 June 2011 - 06:33 PM

From everything that I've come across that has shown positive reduction in ADD/ADHD whether it be drug/supplement/lifestyle change/specific cognitive training - it all has one underlying similarity, BDNF (which protects the dopaminergic system and assists in neurogenesis. The pathway is ERK-CREB-BDNF. Here's another connection I just found. Out of the three pathways signaled, ERK is what modulated hyperactivity.

Recent investigations have shown that three major striatal-signaling pathways (protein kinase A/DARPP-32, Akt/glycogen synthase kinase 3, and ERK) are involved in the regulation of locomotor activity by the monoaminergic neurotransmitter dopamine. Here we used dopamine transporter knock-out mice to examine which particular changes in the regulation of these cell signaling mechanisms are associated with distinct behavioral responses to psychostimulants. In normal animals, amphetamine and methylphenidate increase extracellular levels of dopamine, leading to an enhancement of locomotor activity. However, in dopamine transporter knock-out mice that display a hyperactivity phenotype resulting from a persistent hyperdopaminergic state, these drugs antagonize hyperactivity. Under basal conditions, dopamine transporter knock-out mice show enhanced striatal DARPP-32 phosphorylation, activation of ERK, and inactivation of Akt as compared with wild-type littermates. However, administration of amphetamine or methylphenidate to these mice reveals that inhibition of ERK signaling is a common determinant for the ability of these drugs to antagonize hyperactivity. In contrast, psychostimulants activate ERK and induce hyperactivity in normal animals. In hyperactive mice psychostimulant-mediated behavioral inhibition and ERK regulation are also mimicked by the serotonergic drugs fluoxetine and 5-carboxamidotryptamine, thereby revealing the involvement of serotonin-dependent inhibition of striatal ERK signaling. Furthermore, direct inhibition of the ERK signaling cascade in vivo using the MEK inhibitor SL327 recapitulates the actions of psychostimulants in hyperactive mice and prevents the locomotor-enhancing effects of amphetamine in normal animals. These data suggest that the inhibitory action of psychostimulants on dopamine-dependent hyperactivity results from altered regulation of striatal ERK signaling. In addition, these results illustrate how altered homeostatic state of neurotransmission can influence in vivo signaling responses and biological actions of pharmacological agents used to manage psychiatric conditions such as Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD).


Other items that affect BDNF:
Omega 3s/DHA http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18620024
Exercise http://ep.physoc.org...0/1062.full.pdf
Meditation http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17905931
Short term sleep deprivation for the worse http://www.sciencedi...006899300027086
BDNF shows regenerative effect in Parkinson's http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21236244
Enriched Environment http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21236277
Green Tea http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19409206
Blueberries http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18457678
BDNF used for short term and long term memory and inhibitory learning which was found through inhibiting ERK http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12201640

Here's a study on amphetamine sensitization http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21570990
The effects of methylphenidate on BDNF and subsequently dopamine, and Arc are found to vary between juvenile and adult rats, which could explain memory loss being more pronouned when young. http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19222557


Very interesting, I wonder how BDNF affects cell metabolism as before this my main impression of the underlying cause of AD(H)D was reduced oxygen/glucose metabolism which is remedied by stimulation of D2-like receptors.

http://www.mindandmu...iety-autism-dep

But, interestingly enough amitriptyline one of the less common treatments for AD(H)D is a known agonist of the TrkA and TrkB receptors which are catalytic receptors for several trophic factors including BDNF. I'll need some time to read up on BDNF's downstream effects, but it seems like it might have some cross overs into the D2-like signalling pathways.

Any thoughts on its effects on gene expression?

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#93 jlspartz

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 09:59 PM

From everything that I've come across that has shown positive reduction in ADD/ADHD whether it be drug/supplement/lifestyle change/specific cognitive training - it all has one underlying similarity, BDNF (which protects the dopaminergic system and assists in neurogenesis. The pathway is ERK-CREB-BDNF. Here's another connection I just found. Out of the three pathways signaled, ERK is what modulated hyperactivity.

Recent investigations have shown that three major striatal-signaling pathways (protein kinase A/DARPP-32, Akt/glycogen synthase kinase 3, and ERK) are involved in the regulation of locomotor activity by the monoaminergic neurotransmitter dopamine. Here we used dopamine transporter knock-out mice to examine which particular changes in the regulation of these cell signaling mechanisms are associated with distinct behavioral responses to psychostimulants. In normal animals, amphetamine and methylphenidate increase extracellular levels of dopamine, leading to an enhancement of locomotor activity. However, in dopamine transporter knock-out mice that display a hyperactivity phenotype resulting from a persistent hyperdopaminergic state, these drugs antagonize hyperactivity. Under basal conditions, dopamine transporter knock-out mice show enhanced striatal DARPP-32 phosphorylation, activation of ERK, and inactivation of Akt as compared with wild-type littermates. However, administration of amphetamine or methylphenidate to these mice reveals that inhibition of ERK signaling is a common determinant for the ability of these drugs to antagonize hyperactivity. In contrast, psychostimulants activate ERK and induce hyperactivity in normal animals. In hyperactive mice psychostimulant-mediated behavioral inhibition and ERK regulation are also mimicked by the serotonergic drugs fluoxetine and 5-carboxamidotryptamine, thereby revealing the involvement of serotonin-dependent inhibition of striatal ERK signaling. Furthermore, direct inhibition of the ERK signaling cascade in vivo using the MEK inhibitor SL327 recapitulates the actions of psychostimulants in hyperactive mice and prevents the locomotor-enhancing effects of amphetamine in normal animals. These data suggest that the inhibitory action of psychostimulants on dopamine-dependent hyperactivity results from altered regulation of striatal ERK signaling. In addition, these results illustrate how altered homeostatic state of neurotransmission can influence in vivo signaling responses and biological actions of pharmacological agents used to manage psychiatric conditions such as Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD).


Other items that affect BDNF:
Omega 3s/DHA http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18620024
Exercise http://ep.physoc.org...0/1062.full.pdf
Meditation http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17905931
Short term sleep deprivation for the worse http://www.sciencedi...006899300027086
BDNF shows regenerative effect in Parkinson's http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21236244
Enriched Environment http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21236277
Green Tea http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19409206
Blueberries http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18457678
BDNF used for short term and long term memory and inhibitory learning which was found through inhibiting ERK http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12201640

Here's a study on amphetamine sensitization http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21570990
The effects of methylphenidate on BDNF and subsequently dopamine, and Arc are found to vary between juvenile and adult rats, which could explain memory loss being more pronouned when young. http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19222557


Very interesting, I wonder how BDNF affects cell metabolism as before this my main impression of the underlying cause of AD(H)D was reduced oxygen/glucose metabolism which is remedied by stimulation of D2-like receptors.

http://www.mindandmu...iety-autism-dep

But, interestingly enough amitriptyline one of the less common treatments for AD(H)D is a known agonist of the TrkA and TrkB receptors which are catalytic receptors for several trophic factors including BDNF. I'll need some time to read up on BDNF's downstream effects, but it seems like it might have some cross overs into the D2-like signalling pathways.

Any thoughts on its effects on gene expression?


It's gene expression is through CREB, which tells it to produce more BDNF protein.
Amitriptyline looks like it produces 12-17% more BDNF.
In the link, the omega 3's, piracetam http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20095391 and memantine http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19521778 all upregulate BDNF. I read oxygen and glucose were the same in ADHD, with the exception of areas that were used less like the prefrontal cortex having less blood flow, therefore less oxygen, because of decreased use.
Here's a very good article on ampakines increasing BDNF. In the study they're increasing it 4-5 fold, but AMPA receptors then get down-regulated and it becomes ineffective. http://www.ncbi.nlm....?tool=pmcentrez This study suggests every other day administration to keep the BDNF up and the AMPA receptors from decreasing. http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12893840

#94 Delta Gamma

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 06:20 AM

It's gene expression is through CREB, which tells it to produce more BDNF protein.
Amitriptyline looks like it produces 12-17% more BDNF.
In the link, the omega 3's, piracetam http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20095391 and memantine http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19521778 all upregulate BDNF. I read oxygen and glucose were the same in ADHD, with the exception of areas that were used less like the prefrontal cortex having less blood flow, therefore less oxygen, because of decreased use.
Here's a very good article on ampakines increasing BDNF. In the study they're increasing it 4-5 fold, but AMPA receptors then get down-regulated and it becomes ineffective. http://www.ncbi.nlm....?tool=pmcentrez This study suggests every other day administration to keep the BDNF up and the AMPA receptors from decreasing. http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12893840


Curcumin reverses impaired hippocampal neurogenesis and increases serotonin receptor 1A mRNA and brain-derived neurotrophic factor expression in chronically stressed rats
Ying Xua, Baoshan Kub, Li Cuic, Xuejun Lib, Philip A. Barisha, Thomas C. Fosterc and William O. Oglea, Corresponding Author Contact Information,
Abstract

Curcuma longa is a major constituent of Xiaoyao-san, the traditional Chinese medicine, which has been used to effectively manage stress and depression-related disorders in China. As the active component of curcuma longa, curcumin possesses many therapeutic properties; we have previously described its antidepressant activity in our earlier studies using the chronic unpredictable stress model of depression in rats. Recent studies show that stress-induced damage to hippocampal neurons may contribute to the phathophysiology of depression. The aim of this study was to investigate the effects of curcumin on hippocampal neurogenesis in chronically stressed rats. We used an unpredictable chronic stress paradigm (20 days) to determine whether chronic curcumin treatment with the effective doses for behavioral responses (5, 10 and 20 mg/kg, p.o.), could alleviate or reverse the effects of stress on adult hippocampal neurogenesis. Our results suggested that curcumin administration (10 and 20 mg/kg, p.o.) increased hippocampal neurogenesis in chronically stressed rats, similar to classic antidepressant imipramine treatment (10 mg/kg, i.p.). Our results further demonstrated that these new cells mature and become neurons, as determined by triple labeling for BrdU and neuronal- or glial-specific markers. In addition, curcumin significantly prevented the stress-induced decrease in 5-HT1A mRNA and BDNF protein levels in the hippocampal subfields, two molecules involved in hippocampal neurogenesis. These results raise the possibility that increased cell proliferation and neuronal populations may be a mechanism by which curcumin treatment overcomes the stress-induced behavioral abnormalities and hippocampal neuronal damage. Moreover, curcumin treatment, via up-regulation of 5-HT1A receptors and BDNF, may reverse or protect hippocampal neurons from further damage in response to chronic stress, which may underlie the therapeutic actions of curcumin.


Interesting, I'm going to hazard a guess that curcumin directly inhibits CREB but stimulates BDNF (and other trophic factors) production downstream as BDNF is a CREB dependent pathway (unless it changes by cell type).

Also, atomoxetine another AD(H)D treatment was found to stimulate BDNF in rats. However, methyphenidate and amphetamine are known to decrease BDNF yet increase learned IQ.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21466746 and http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19222557

But, there's no clear link between BDNF and AD(H)D or at least there are conflicting results on the topic.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21466746 and http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21049304

I don't doubt that BDNF does play a role, but I'd have to say that glucose metabolism plays a bigger role in ADHD.
Though increasing BDNF would almost surely help someone repair some aspects of amphetamine induced damage.

#95 jlspartz

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 04:05 PM

It's gene expression is through CREB, which tells it to produce more BDNF protein.
Amitriptyline looks like it produces 12-17% more BDNF.
In the link, the omega 3's, piracetam http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20095391 and memantine http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19521778 all upregulate BDNF. I read oxygen and glucose were the same in ADHD, with the exception of areas that were used less like the prefrontal cortex having less blood flow, therefore less oxygen, because of decreased use.
Here's a very good article on ampakines increasing BDNF. In the study they're increasing it 4-5 fold, but AMPA receptors then get down-regulated and it becomes ineffective. http://www.ncbi.nlm....?tool=pmcentrez This study suggests every other day administration to keep the BDNF up and the AMPA receptors from decreasing. http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12893840


Curcumin reverses impaired hippocampal neurogenesis and increases serotonin receptor 1A mRNA and brain-derived neurotrophic factor expression in chronically stressed rats
Ying Xua, Baoshan Kub, Li Cuic, Xuejun Lib, Philip A. Barisha, Thomas C. Fosterc and William O. Oglea, Corresponding Author Contact Information,
Abstract

Curcuma longa is a major constituent of Xiaoyao-san, the traditional Chinese medicine, which has been used to effectively manage stress and depression-related disorders in China. As the active component of curcuma longa, curcumin possesses many therapeutic properties; we have previously described its antidepressant activity in our earlier studies using the chronic unpredictable stress model of depression in rats. Recent studies show that stress-induced damage to hippocampal neurons may contribute to the phathophysiology of depression. The aim of this study was to investigate the effects of curcumin on hippocampal neurogenesis in chronically stressed rats. We used an unpredictable chronic stress paradigm (20 days) to determine whether chronic curcumin treatment with the effective doses for behavioral responses (5, 10 and 20 mg/kg, p.o.), could alleviate or reverse the effects of stress on adult hippocampal neurogenesis. Our results suggested that curcumin administration (10 and 20 mg/kg, p.o.) increased hippocampal neurogenesis in chronically stressed rats, similar to classic antidepressant imipramine treatment (10 mg/kg, i.p.). Our results further demonstrated that these new cells mature and become neurons, as determined by triple labeling for BrdU and neuronal- or glial-specific markers. In addition, curcumin significantly prevented the stress-induced decrease in 5-HT1A mRNA and BDNF protein levels in the hippocampal subfields, two molecules involved in hippocampal neurogenesis. These results raise the possibility that increased cell proliferation and neuronal populations may be a mechanism by which curcumin treatment overcomes the stress-induced behavioral abnormalities and hippocampal neuronal damage. Moreover, curcumin treatment, via up-regulation of 5-HT1A receptors and BDNF, may reverse or protect hippocampal neurons from further damage in response to chronic stress, which may underlie the therapeutic actions of curcumin.


Interesting, I'm going to hazard a guess that curcumin directly inhibits CREB but stimulates BDNF (and other trophic factors) production downstream as BDNF is a CREB dependent pathway (unless it changes by cell type).

Also, atomoxetine another AD(H)D treatment was found to stimulate BDNF in rats. However, methyphenidate and amphetamine are known to decrease BDNF yet increase learned IQ.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21466746 and http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19222557

But, there's no clear link between BDNF and AD(H)D or at least there are conflicting results on the topic.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21466746 and http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21049304

I don't doubt that BDNF does play a role, but I'd have to say that glucose metabolism plays a bigger role in ADHD.
Though increasing BDNF would almost surely help someone repair some aspects of amphetamine induced damage.


Both of those studies for ADHD are on the BDNF gene polymorphisms. What genotype you have can tell if the protein that is produced in you is more or less efficient, but has no relation to the amount of mRNA you are producing and how much labeling of protein is going on. You could have the most efficient genotype and be sleep deprived sitting at 50 pg ml, or have the least efficient genotype but have a resting rate of 500 pg ml.

As the methylphenidate and amphetamine study points out, there's a decrease in BDNF in the hippocampus, moving to the frontal cortex where there's an increase initially. Over chronic administration BDNF starts to go down resulting in the need for more, and the DRI and DRA actions are just pure cover-ups of the issue, and eventually the lose of memory occurs due to the lowered BDNF - I believe I posted that link already. The frontal cortex is where the effects of ADHD lie. Working memory is significantly reduced in ADHD, and instrumental in executive functioning. Here and in a link that I posted prior both show BDNF's relation to working memory. http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19932884 Proof of the connection to ADHD is in the study that activation of ERK was exclusive in controlling ADHD (link posted prior). Here is a map of the pathway. http://www5.appliedb...DNF Pathway.jpg ERK goes directly to CREB, which produces BDNF mRNA (gene expression) that label new neurons for BDNF protein to continue the cycle and produce dopamineric neurons that increase dopamine neurotransmitter production. Almost all neuronal survival depends on BDNF and NT-3 as shown in this table http://www.ncbi.nlm....58233/table/T1/ from this study http://www.ncbi.nlm....?tool=pmcentrez which concludes "Cell fate decisions, axon growth, dendrite pruning, synaptic function, and plasticity are all regulated by the neurotrophins."

Metabolizing of glucose could be a byproduct of BDNF. Here are some indications that BDNF plays a role in cardio and glucose metabolism. http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21701997 http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20164202
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#96 Delta Gamma

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 05:58 PM

Both of those studies for ADHD are on the BDNF gene polymorphisms. What genotype you have can tell if the protein that is produced in you is more or less efficient, but has no relation to the amount of mRNA you are producing and how much labeling of protein is going on. You could have the most efficient genotype and be sleep deprived sitting at 50 pg ml, or have the least efficient genotype but have a resting rate of 500 pg ml.

As the methylphenidate and amphetamine study points out, there's a decrease in BDNF in the hippocampus, moving to the frontal cortex where there's an increase initially. Over chronic administration BDNF starts to go down resulting in the need for more, and the DRI and DRA actions are just pure cover-ups of the issue, and eventually the lose of memory occurs due to the lowered BDNF - I believe I posted that link already. The frontal cortex is where the effects of ADHD lie. Working memory is significantly reduced in ADHD, and instrumental in executive functioning. Here and in a link that I posted prior both show BDNF's relation to working memory. http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19932884 Proof of the connection to ADHD is in the study that activation of ERK was exclusive in controlling ADHD (link posted prior). Here is a map of the pathway. http://www5.appliedb...DNF Pathway.jpg ERK goes directly to CREB, which produces BDNF mRNA (gene expression) that label new neurons for BDNF protein to continue the cycle and produce dopamineric neurons that increase dopamine neurotransmitter production. Almost all neuronal survival depends on BDNF and NT-3 as shown in this table http://www.ncbi.nlm....58233/table/T1/ from this study http://www.ncbi.nlm....?tool=pmcentrez which concludes "Cell fate decisions, axon growth, dendrite pruning, synaptic function, and plasticity are all regulated by the neurotrophins."

Metabolizing of glucose could be a byproduct of BDNF. Here are some indications that BDNF plays a role in cardio and glucose metabolism. http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21701997 http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20164202


My logic behind the BDNF polymorphism studies is that there isn't a smoking gun type link for BDNF and AD(H)D like there is for some forms of depression. I'll agree that it's not a great metric for extrapolating real life concentrations from, but it does show that a less effective genotype alone does not strongly predict AD(H)D. But, good job catching that haha its like peer review on the internet :).

I'm interested in the BDNF influence on glucose metabolism, as the D2-like receptors have been shown to decrease cAMP in the cell while neurotrophins have been shown to substantially increase it. http://www.jneurosci.../37/11770.short . Perhaps there are different effects from D2-like stimulation and neurotrophin stimulation as far as cell growth/branching go seeing as D2-like stimulation is well known to increase dendric spine numbers which could result in a similar but not identical outcome compared to increased BDNF levels. It also might explain some of the different effects on memory that stimulant and non-stimulant treatments could have.

Stimulant treatment could also increase working memory via downregulation of the D1 receptor, which would decrease cAMP levels and increase metabolism in certain brain regions. http://www.klingberg...b/McNab2009.pdf . While this could "mask" deficits caused by decreased levels of BDNF it does support my position that glucose metabolism is the biggest factor in AD(H)D.

Your links on BDNF and metabolism are really interesting, I only wish that they went more into how it changed metabolism on a molecular level. However the one with the direct application to the paraventricular nucleus of hypothalamus is more likely just due to a upregulation of anorexic signalling.

Dopaminergic stimulation up-regulates the in vivo expression of brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF) in the striatum
Hitoshi OkazawaCorresponding Author Contact Information, a, Miho Murataa, Masahiko Watanabea, Masaki Kameia and Ichiro Kanazawaa

Abstract

We investigated the effect of dopamine on the in vivo expression of brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF) in the striatum of mouse. BDNF mRNA expression in the striation, which was Quantified with the reverse transcriptase polymerase chain reaction, was up-repulated from 2 h after oral administration of levodopa, a precursor of dopamine. The increase was sustained for 16 h. Co-administrstion of haloperidol partially inhibited dopamine-induced BDNF enhancement. These data suggest that dopaminergic stimulation directly promotes the expression of BDNF in the striatum in vivo.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1601-183X.2005.00163.x/full
http://www.jbc.org/c.../35/21100.short
It appears that BDNF is closely associated with dopamine, but the exact effect both of them exert I'm not sure. I'll guess that BDNF and D2-like signalling increase a cell's metabolism via different mechanisms. But, I'm not sure what other factors play a role, the brain is ridiculously interconnected like that. It might be that BDNF increases dopagenic signalling in the PFC.

I'm mostly trained in cardiovascular/renal pharmacology, so the brain isn't something I usually work on aside from vascular issues. As a side point dopamine has some fairly inconsistent effects on blood flow in the brain.

#97 Delta Gamma

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 08:28 PM

Just finished reading through all the ampakine stuff and I'm not totally convinced that their efficacy in AD(H)D is due to BDNF increases.

There is some evidence that increased BDNF worsens inattentive symptoms
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18760321

However, there is also evidence that decreased BDNF may be beneficial in ADHD.
http://www.medical-h...0479-8/abstract
http://www.medical-h...0539-1/abstract

I think that we may have to separate ADHD from ADHD-PI or ADD to get more meaningful results, as this may be the reason for all the conflicting studies on the topic. What do you guys think?

I'm not a expert on the topic of AD(H)D, but rather amphetamine's pharmacology.

#98 Delta Gamma

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 01:32 PM

I mean increased BDNF in the second paragraph

#99 jlspartz

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 07:40 PM

Stimulant treatment could also increase working memory via downregulation of the D1 receptor, which would decrease cAMP levels and increase metabolism in certain brain regions. http://www.klingberg...b/McNab2009.pdf . While this could "mask" deficits caused by decreased levels of BDNF it does support my position that glucose metabolism is the biggest factor in AD(H)D.


This is interesting, and I looked more into it. The working memory tasks have a U-shaped effect on D1 binding and on BDNF levels, meaning the less or more you do it the worse - both extremes are bad. While getting to the increasing working memory extreme BDNF is pumped out, but over-doing it kills the new neurons and D1 binding goes down. Also, the D1 binding in the prefrontal cortex is strongly linked to D2 receptors in the hippocampus. These are two different studies I read in the N-back forums, which I can dig up at a later time when I've got the time.

I did see the abstract on the study stating higher BDNF plasma levels in ADHD. I'd like to see specifics, as plasma doesn't mean actual levels of mRNA, the speed of labeling going on, protein levels, and circulation throughout. It's like saying someone has a lot of blood plasma - what does that mean - nothing really. Just a subjective remark but the study points to a correlation with inattention, and I topped the chart for inattention while being below control levels for hyperactive/impulsive and anything I've done to boost BDNF has only helped. And anything known to increase BDNF is everything that has been successful in studies with all subtypes. Although, I do get irritated that most studies do not separate the subtypes.

I'm also seeing more connections between BDNF and metabolism. http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21301813 Lowering glucose levels or speeding up glucose metabolism affects cognitive conditions for many disorders. Lowering glucose causes more BDNF, and more BDNF causes a faster metabolism. It looks to be a complete cycle - a chicken or eeg dilemma. I still believe it to be the BDNF since it's implicated in many disorders, whereas not all type 2 diabetics have Alzheimer's, ADHD, depression, etc. It's best to attack it from both sides I'd say - do anything that raises BDNF and anything that lowers glucose or speeds up the metabolism.

Edited by jlspartz, 30 June 2011 - 07:44 PM.


#100 jlspartz

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 08:03 PM

Here's something interesting http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21254300

The induction of long-lasting memory storage depends on the behavioral state of humans and animals. This behavioral state is mediated by neuromodulatory systems, like the cholinergic-septum-hippocampal circuit. Cholinergic neurotransmission is known to affect short-term activity-dependent plasticity in various brain areas, including the hippocampus. We could show here that a chemical late-long-term potentiation (LTP) could be induced in the basal dendrites by the coapplication of the cholinergic receptor agonist, carbachol, and the phosphodiesterase type 4 (PDE4)-inhibitor, rolipram at a concentration that by itself has no effect on basal synaptic transmission. This chemical late-LTP was similar to electrical late-LTP in that it is dependent on protein synthesis, cAMP, and NMDA-receptor activation. Occlusion experiments demonstrated that saturation of three tetanus (TET) late-LTP occluded carbachol-rolipram-LTP, indicating that they share similar properties. This cholinergic modulation of LTP in the basal dendrites was mediated by both muscarinic and nicotinic receptors. Carbachol also reinforced an early form of LTP into a long-lasting LTP. Most interestingly, these two forms of LTP could participate in the functional plasticity processes like synaptic tagging and capture (STC). In addition, we studied whether a cooperation between cholinergic and glutamatergic receptors is essential to induce functional synaptic-plasticity. Indeed, we could show that coactivation of acetylcholine/PDE4 inhibition must coincide with the release of glutamate to induce a long-lasting plasticity, showing a functional convergence of the two neuromodulatory systems. Moreover, we could also show that both chemical late-LTP and carbachol-reinforced early-LTP-induced STC processes are mediated by the neurotrophin BDNF.


So basically, amphetamine, which would cause glutamate release, plus caffeine, being a non-selective PDE inhibitor, mediated by BDNF causes long term potentiation. Of course, there are probably safer routes to the same conclusion.

#101 Delta Gamma

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 09:31 PM

Brain-derived neurotrophic factor works coordinately with partner molecules to initiate tyrosine hydroxylase expression in striatal neurons

Xinyu Dua, Natalie D. Stulla and Lorraine Iacovitti
Abstract

Previous studies demonstrated that the cooperative interaction of acidic fibroblast growth factor (aFGF) and a partner molecule could induce the novel expression of the catecholamine (CA) biosynthetic enzyme, tyrosine hydroxylase (TH) in striatal neurons [Du and Iacovitti, J. Neurosci., in press; Du et al., J. Neurosci., 14 (1994) 7688–7694; Iacovitti et al., submitted]. The present study demonstrates that in addition to aFGF, brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF) is also capable of moderate levels of TH induction (30% TH+ striatal neurons) when administered at high concentrations (100 ng/ml). As with aFGF, BDNF's activity dependent on its coupling to an appropriate partner molecule; the most potent of which were 10 μM dopamine (DA) and 50 μM mazindol. BDNF + DA-induced TH expression was first evident after at 12 h; peaked by 18 h and declined by 4 days in culture. Cyclohexamide eliminated nearly all and α-amanitin reduced by half the TH induction elicited by DA and BDNF; indicating that both de novo transcription and translation were required for increased expression. In contrast with aFGF and BDNF, other putative dopamine differentiation factors, such as glial-derived neurotrophic factor (GDNF) and ciliary neurotrophic factor (CNTF), were able to elicit barely detectable (10%) levels of TH induction, regardless of the partner molecule used. These studies suggest that aFGF and/or BDNF may work coordinately with partner molecules to initiate TH expression; while a number of factors including, CNTF and GDNF, may be involved in its subsequent modulation


Looks like BDNF could increase DA production, which could help in AD(H)D. I never really looked at curcumin's stimulation of trophic factors as anything but promoting cell survival, but it looks like it could also increase the function of dopagenic neurons. Man, what doesn't that spice do?

I'm still working on getting the information I need to make intelligent replies for some of the earlier posts so don't worry I haven't abandoned your topics.
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#102 jlspartz

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 06:04 PM

Brain-derived neurotrophic factor works coordinately with partner molecules to initiate tyrosine hydroxylase expression in striatal neurons

Xinyu Dua, Natalie D. Stulla and Lorraine Iacovitti
Abstract

Previous studies demonstrated that the cooperative interaction of acidic fibroblast growth factor (aFGF) and a partner molecule could induce the novel expression of the catecholamine (CA) biosynthetic enzyme, tyrosine hydroxylase (TH) in striatal neurons [Du and Iacovitti, J. Neurosci., in press; Du et al., J. Neurosci., 14 (1994) 7688–7694; Iacovitti et al., submitted]. The present study demonstrates that in addition to aFGF, brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF) is also capable of moderate levels of TH induction (30% TH+ striatal neurons) when administered at high concentrations (100 ng/ml). As with aFGF, BDNF's activity dependent on its coupling to an appropriate partner molecule; the most potent of which were 10 μM dopamine (DA) and 50 μM mazindol. BDNF + DA-induced TH expression was first evident after at 12 h; peaked by 18 h and declined by 4 days in culture. Cyclohexamide eliminated nearly all and α-amanitin reduced by half the TH induction elicited by DA and BDNF; indicating that both de novo transcription and translation were required for increased expression. In contrast with aFGF and BDNF, other putative dopamine differentiation factors, such as glial-derived neurotrophic factor (GDNF) and ciliary neurotrophic factor (CNTF), were able to elicit barely detectable (10%) levels of TH induction, regardless of the partner molecule used. These studies suggest that aFGF and/or BDNF may work coordinately with partner molecules to initiate TH expression; while a number of factors including, CNTF and GDNF, may be involved in its subsequent modulation


Looks like BDNF could increase DA production, which could help in AD(H)D. I never really looked at curcumin's stimulation of trophic factors as anything but promoting cell survival, but it looks like it could also increase the function of dopagenic neurons. Man, what doesn't that spice do?

I'm still working on getting the information I need to make intelligent replies for some of the earlier posts so don't worry I haven't abandoned your topics.


Yeah, BDNF also matures dopaminergic neurons to functional status increasing DA production. http://onlinelibrary...09.06201.x/full

Here, we report on the role of brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF) in the maturation of the MSC-derived DA progenitors. 9-day induced MSCs show significant tropomyosin-receptor-kinase B expression, which correlate with its ligand, BDNF, being able to induce functional maturation. The latter was based on Ca2+ imaging analyses and electrophysiology. BDNF-treated cells showed the following: increases in intracellular Ca2+ upon depolarization and after stimulation with the neurotransmitters acetylcholine and GABA and, post-synaptic currents by electrophysiological analyses. In addition, BDNF induced increased DA release upon depolarization. Taken together, these results demonstrate the crucial role for BDNF in the functional maturation of MSC-derived DA progenitors.


This study explains the connections between what you eat and cognition, coming down to BDNFs connection to energy metabolism (consumption, insulin, glucose, lipids) and talks about DHA and curcumin's positive effects on it. http://www.ncbi.nlm....?tool=pmcentrez

#103 jlspartz

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 06:48 PM

Curcumin upregulates BDNF http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18420184 although probably not directly as this points out that it upregulates CREB expression http://www.ncbi.nlm....?tool=pmcentrez , and that would explain why both BDNF and tyrosine hydroxylase go up, as it says in the article, "Genes whose transcription is regulated by CREB include: c-fos, BDNF (Brain-derived neurotrophic factor), tyrosine hydroxylase and neuropeptides such as somatostatin, enkephalin, VGF and corticotropin-releasing hormone." Also, as shown before lowering of blood glucose increases BDNF, and curcumin lowers blood glucose almost as effective as pure insulin in the study.

#104 Delta Gamma

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 10:38 PM

Curcumin upregulates BDNF http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18420184 although probably not directly as this points out that it upregulates CREB expression http://www.ncbi.nlm....?tool=pmcentrez , and that would explain why both BDNF and tyrosine hydroxylase go up, as it says in the article, "Genes whose transcription is regulated by CREB include: c-fos, BDNF (Brain-derived neurotrophic factor), tyrosine hydroxylase and neuropeptides such as somatostatin, enkephalin, VGF and corticotropin-releasing hormone." Also, as shown before lowering of blood glucose increases BDNF, and curcumin lowers blood glucose almost as effective as pure insulin in the study.


Interesting. I'm glad we tied the BDNF/DA/Metabolism link together now. But, as far as curcumin's effects on CREB it looks like it primarily downregulates CREB, unless I'm mistaken.

#105 jlspartz

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Posted 09 July 2011 - 08:28 PM

Curcumin upregulates BDNF http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18420184 although probably not directly as this points out that it upregulates CREB expression http://www.ncbi.nlm....?tool=pmcentrez , and that would explain why both BDNF and tyrosine hydroxylase go up, as it says in the article, "Genes whose transcription is regulated by CREB include: c-fos, BDNF (Brain-derived neurotrophic factor), tyrosine hydroxylase and neuropeptides such as somatostatin, enkephalin, VGF and corticotropin-releasing hormone." Also, as shown before lowering of blood glucose increases BDNF, and curcumin lowers blood glucose almost as effective as pure insulin in the study.


Interesting. I'm glad we tied the BDNF/DA/Metabolism link together now. But, as far as curcumin's effects on CREB it looks like it primarily downregulates CREB, unless I'm mistaken.


You were probably misreading the same spot I initially did, where it says CREB is downregulated in diabetic rats. They were making a general statement and not talking about the effect of curcumin. This is the effect of curcumin on CREB in the cerebral cortex http://www.ncbi.nlm....0658/figure/F5/ and this is the effect of curcumin on CREB in the cerebellum http://www.ncbi.nlm....0658/figure/F6/ They indicate a control diabetic, a diabetic with insulin treatment, and a diabetic with curcumin treatment. CREB is still low in all cases of the diabetics, but the use of curcumin puts them much closer to baseline than controls, even beating insulin treatment.

#106 Delta Gamma

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Posted 09 July 2011 - 10:51 PM

Very interesting, but we have to keep in mind diabetics normally have reduced CREB so these results might not be the norm, but I'm splitting hairs now lol.
http://www.jbc.org/c.../46142.abstract

Well if curcumin is a CREB inhibitor I guess its only logical that it does eventually upregulate CREB. However, as far as acute dosages and tolerance goes I would presume it would still inhibit tolerance development in a manner similar to the one I discussed on bluelight. What do you think?

#107 Valor5

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 04:14 PM

Sorry to derail the train of thought.

Donepezil in a chronic drug user--a potential treatment?
Jovanovski D, Zakzanis KK.
Source

Department of Life Sciences, University of Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
Abstract

The objective of the current study was to explore the potential cognitive benefits of an anticholinesterase inhibitor, donepezil, in a former chronic drug user. A neuropsychological test battery composed of the vocabulary and matrix reasoning subtests of the Wechsler adult intelligence scale-III, measures of everyday executive functioning (behavioural assessment of the dysexecutive syndrome [BADS]), and verbal learning and memory tasks (California verbal learning test-II; Rivermead behavioural memory test) was completed at baseline, at 3 months after introducing donepezil, and at 3 months after donepezil was discontinued. After donepezil treatment, substantial improvements were found on tasks of nonverbal fluid reasoning (i.e. matrix reasoning) and other executive functioning tests (i.e. BADS). At entry into the study, poor academic performance and subjective problems with memory and concentration were reported, particularly after amphetamine use (i.e. MDMA and crystal methamphetamine); after donepezil treatment, dramatic increases in memory, concentration and academic achievement were observed. The finding of improvements in tests of executive functioning and in academic performance in this case study, together with the minimal adverse side effects of donepezil, warrants the investigation of controlled studies of cholinergic enhancement in chronic amphetamine and other drug users.

Copyright 2003 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.



#108 InquilineKea

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 03:31 AM

Hm - here's a question: is it important to inhibit apoptosis in neurons? Without apoptosis, you still get damaged neurons, along with possibly damaged mitochondria inside them (not only that, but mutations tend to accelerate with each additional mutation). But are neurons an exception to the "bad effects" of apoptosis because most neurons can't really divide (or form cancer)?

Another question: is there any proof that amphetamine causes downregulation of dopamine receptors? I assumed that as given, but apparently - no paper showed that to be true for ADD/ADHD-relevant doses of amphetamine (which resulted in an interesting humiliation on a Quora thread I posted at http://www.quora.com...4#comment481046)

Edited by InquilineKea, 20 July 2011 - 04:00 AM.


#109 InquilineKea

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 04:07 AM

Hey Delta Gamma:

I think you have done a great job so far. I have read through your thread and I probably need to go through it about ten more times. I am sure that is true for all of us. Thanks for the in-depth research.

You made a recommendation of Elemental Mg, does this mean just any good supp. with Mg in it? I guess that would be the case, because no one can ingest pure magnesium as it is reactive with the atmosphere, lol.

You also made a recommendation of hydrating with blueberry juice. The concentrate from NSI has 26g of sugar and 110 calories per serving. That is for one cup. If you took one of those per hour you would get in 8 hours 208g of sugar and 880 calories. Now for a brain on amphetamine all this sugar might be a good thing, right or wrong? Also, if wrong, should the person instead take a blueberry extract?

Something I read that fascinated me while thinking on the sugar question was this article at pubmed. It said that glucose competes with amphetamines and reduces activity and sterotypy. I found that fascinating because that explains why people on amphetamines say that they do not feel hungry because essentially amphetamines do what glucose does in a single pill.
Glucose and the brain and amphetamines effects on rats

So now I am asking is the reduction in activity a good thing or a bad thing? I think it depends again because I think if you have high serotonin along with dopamine it makes rats go in circles and do what scientists would consider not good behavior etc.

I am also asking the relevance of glucose in the brain if you are taking amphetamines, only because a high glucose consumption competes with dopamine and amp. and I read that it does something to albumin in the kidneys and maybe prooxidant in that part of the body if excessive. Which begs the question of amphetamines and the kidneys also which would be less than glucose I imagine of course. My ADD just wants to take me in all directions but I can't help it there is just so much to look at.

Longecity should be more organized in terms of bodysystems etc.

There are different types of studies invivo, invitro, animal, human, organ, system, etc. It seems to me that one substance will have differing effects on each of these systems and to gain a comprehensive view we have to understand each. At this time I do not think the science industry is organized that way but who knows it may work out nonetheless yet it would seem to me to be better if we did it systematically but then again the body is so complex it may be impossible I suppose because humans are essentially flawed as is nature and we would need a lot of perfect models in order to carry out perfect experiments with perfect controls but we do not have perfect specimens, I don't think, I guess that is why we have a large sample in order to have more confidence in the results . So, our task is even harder because we do not have perfect models.


Regarding reduced glucose consumption - it's actually often a good thing. Reduced glucose consumption is often an indicator of efficiency. In fact, the brain regions of smarter people require less glucose to perform the same task, as compared to those of dumber people. See http://www.sciencedi...191886994900493

#110 Delta Gamma

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 05:21 AM

Hm - here's a question: is it important to inhibit apoptosis in neurons? Without apoptosis, you still get damaged neurons, along with possibly damaged mitochondria inside them (not only that, but mutations tend to accelerate with each additional mutation). But are neurons an exception to the "bad effects" of apoptosis because most neurons can't really divide (or form cancer)?

Another question: is there any proof that amphetamine causes downregulation of dopamine receptors? I assumed that as given, but apparently - no paper showed that to be true for ADD/ADHD-relevant doses of amphetamine (which resulted in an interesting humiliation on a Quora thread I posted at http://www.quora.com...4#comment481046)


Inhibiting apoptosis is beneficial in this case because dopagenic neurons are fairly sensitive to oxidative stress. In most other cases it may carry a slight benefit depending on the circumstances.

Amphetamine does cause dopamine receptor downregulation as well, though its not that pronounced at AD(H)D dosages. Its kind of like neurotoxicity at low doses, it in all likelihood does happen, but it might not really matter that much. At higher doses things get messy fast though.

I can go into more detail if you'd like, I'm just about to head to bed now though.

#111 InquilineKea

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 02:27 PM

Hm - here's a question: is it important to inhibit apoptosis in neurons? Without apoptosis, you still get damaged neurons, along with possibly damaged mitochondria inside them (not only that, but mutations tend to accelerate with each additional mutation). But are neurons an exception to the "bad effects" of apoptosis because most neurons can't really divide (or form cancer)?

Another question: is there any proof that amphetamine causes downregulation of dopamine receptors? I assumed that as given, but apparently - no paper showed that to be true for ADD/ADHD-relevant doses of amphetamine (which resulted in an interesting humiliation on a Quora thread I posted at http://www.quora.com...4#comment481046)


Inhibiting apoptosis is beneficial in this case because dopagenic neurons are fairly sensitive to oxidative stress. In most other cases it may carry a slight benefit depending on the circumstances.

Amphetamine does cause dopamine receptor downregulation as well, though its not that pronounced at AD(H)D dosages. Its kind of like neurotoxicity at low doses, it in all likelihood does happen, but it might not really matter that much. At higher doses things get messy fast though.

I can go into more detail if you'd like, I'm just about to head to bed now though.


Ah - thanks for the reply! Hm yeah - regarding the sensitivity of neurons to oxidative stress - isn't apoptosis supposed to be triggered when the cell experiences it though? Apoptosis is always triggered with cell damage so that the cell doesn't start becoming cancerous or damaging all its neighbors.

#112 Delta Gamma

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 09:14 PM

Hm - here's a question: is it important to inhibit apoptosis in neurons? Without apoptosis, you still get damaged neurons, along with possibly damaged mitochondria inside them (not only that, but mutations tend to accelerate with each additional mutation). But are neurons an exception to the "bad effects" of apoptosis because most neurons can't really divide (or form cancer)?

Another question: is there any proof that amphetamine causes downregulation of dopamine receptors? I assumed that as given, but apparently - no paper showed that to be true for ADD/ADHD-relevant doses of amphetamine (which resulted in an interesting humiliation on a Quora thread I posted at http://www.quora.com...4#comment481046)


Inhibiting apoptosis is beneficial in this case because dopagenic neurons are fairly sensitive to oxidative stress. In most other cases it may carry a slight benefit depending on the circumstances.

Amphetamine does cause dopamine receptor downregulation as well, though its not that pronounced at AD(H)D dosages. Its kind of like neurotoxicity at low doses, it in all likelihood does happen, but it might not really matter that much. At higher doses things get messy fast though.

I can go into more detail if you'd like, I'm just about to head to bed now though.


Ah - thanks for the reply! Hm yeah - regarding the sensitivity of neurons to oxidative stress - isn't apoptosis supposed to be triggered when the cell experiences it though? Apoptosis is always triggered with cell damage so that the cell doesn't start becoming cancerous or damaging all its neighbors.


Its a valid point, but neurons either never or rarely divide so protecting the ones we have and reducing oxidative stress is a good thing in this case. Now say we were talking about skin cells or the like, then there may be some problems.

#113 InquilineKea

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 09:18 PM

Hm - here's a question: is it important to inhibit apoptosis in neurons? Without apoptosis, you still get damaged neurons, along with possibly damaged mitochondria inside them (not only that, but mutations tend to accelerate with each additional mutation). But are neurons an exception to the "bad effects" of apoptosis because most neurons can't really divide (or form cancer)?

Another question: is there any proof that amphetamine causes downregulation of dopamine receptors? I assumed that as given, but apparently - no paper showed that to be true for ADD/ADHD-relevant doses of amphetamine (which resulted in an interesting humiliation on a Quora thread I posted at http://www.quora.com...4#comment481046)


Inhibiting apoptosis is beneficial in this case because dopagenic neurons are fairly sensitive to oxidative stress. In most other cases it may carry a slight benefit depending on the circumstances.

Amphetamine does cause dopamine receptor downregulation as well, though its not that pronounced at AD(H)D dosages. Its kind of like neurotoxicity at low doses, it in all likelihood does happen, but it might not really matter that much. At higher doses things get messy fast though.

I can go into more detail if you'd like, I'm just about to head to bed now though.


Ah - thanks for the reply! Hm yeah - regarding the sensitivity of neurons to oxidative stress - isn't apoptosis supposed to be triggered when the cell experiences it though? Apoptosis is always triggered with cell damage so that the cell doesn't start becoming cancerous or damaging all its neighbors.


Its a valid point, but neurons either never or rarely divide so protecting the ones we have and reducing oxidative stress is a good thing in this case. Now say we were talking about skin cells or the like, then there may be some problems.


Ah yes true. The one thing, though - is this - can we *really* be sure that a malfunctioning neuron isn't going to do significant amounts of damage to surrounding neurons through other mechanisms? Neurons are a lot more complex than other cells, so it might be more possible to mess surrounding neurons up in other ways

#114 Valor5

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 11:31 PM

[/quote]

Regarding reduced glucose consumption - it's actually often a good thing. Reduced glucose consumption is often an indicator of efficiency. In fact, the brain regions of smarter people require less glucose to perform the same task, as compared to those of dumber people. See http://www.sciencedi...191886994900493
[/quote]

I like that link. Here is an interesting quote from a recent article. About transplantation of brain cells. I am interested in the effects of amphetamines on schwann cells and oligodendrocytes atm which make up myelin which in turn have ramafications on intelligence.

[quote]Abstract

Cell replacement therapy has been proposed as a means to replace lost dopaminergic neurons in Parkinson's disease (PD). In most studies, the transplanted cells have been placed within the target site, the striatum, and not within the lesioned site, the substantia nigra, as the adult nigrostriatal pathway was thought to constitute a non-permissive environment for long distance axonal outgrowth of transplanted neuroblasts. Here, we discuss recent findings showing that intranigral transplanted dopaminergic neuroblasts can form axonal projections to the striatum, resulting in increased striatal dopamine levels and ameliorating behavioral deficits in animal models of PD. Such findings have raised new hopes and opened new avenues for cell replacement therapy in patients with PD.
[/quote]

Also this patent to deal with neurotoxicity is recent and fascinating. I will have to look into it later on it may come in tablet form.

This next study is interesting. It basically says that young rats with neurotoxity or whatever derived brain lesions profit about 100% from transplanted cells and then the efficacy goes down to 50% in the middle aged and then 0% in the old. So, the lesson is if you suspect any kind of brain damage it is best to treat it immediately, at least for rats.

[quote]We examined the behavioral and morphological correlates of
the response to a single intrastriatal dispersed cell graft of fetal
rat ventral mesencephalic tissue in male Fischer-344 rats of
varying age (4, 17, and 24–26 months old) and history of
mesostriatal dopamine (DA) depletion (1 or 14 months). Our
goal was to determine the impact of advancing age and duration
of DA depletion in the host on DA graft viability and
function. The findings can be summarized as follows. (1) Fetal
DA neuron grafts that were effective in completely ameliorating
amphetamine-induced rotational behavior in young rats with
short-term lesions were virtually without effect in aged rats with
long-term lesions. Middle-aged rats with long-term lesions responded
to these grafts with partial behavioral recovery. (2) Age
of the host at the time of transplantation, and not duration of DA
depletion, was the primary determinant of response to DA
grafts. (3) Diminished efficacy of grafts in lesioned aging rats
was related to decreased survival and neurite extension of
transplanted DA neurons. (4) Co-grafts of DA neurons with
Schwann cells as a source of neurotrophic support improved
the behavioral outcome of grafts in aged lesioned rats. These
findings support the view that the DA-depleted striatum of aged
rats is an impoverished environment for survival, growth, and
function of DA grafts. Consistent with this view, local supplementation
of the neurotrophic environment of grafted DA neurons
with products of co-grafted Schwann cells, a demonstrated
source of neurotrophic activity for embryonic DA
neurons, improved graft outcome.[/quote]

This quote deals with METH not necessarily amphetamine but it does cause destruction of the myelin via destruction of oligodendrocites which make up the myelin along side schwann cells. I am not sure if amphetamine will do the same via the mRNA expression. Why do these cells decide to kill themselves in the presence of this molecule, puzzling? There is a paper on the nature of neurotoxins that I need to read perhaps that will shed some light. There are also apoptosis inhibitors, but I don't know how those would work yet. The above metioned patent probably work along those lines.

[quote]Abstract

We investigated whether the psychostimulant methamphetamine (METH) has a cytotoxic effect on oligodendrocytes and which cell-death pathways are involved in the cytotoxic process. METH caused concentration- and time-dependent cytotoxicity in rat oligodendrocyte cultures. METH induced apoptotic cell death and mRNA expression of pro-apoptotic proteins (bax and DP5), but not anti-apoptotic proteins (bcl-2 and bcl-XL). These results suggest that METH induces cytotoxicity in rat oligodendrocytes via the differential regulation of the expression of genes involved in the apoptotic process.[/quote]

The last thing I am looking into is the fact that BDNF is excreted from oligodendrocytes so they are very important cells and this is regulated by glutamate which also regulates apoptosis IIRC. I also want to know the differences if any from rat glial cells and that of humans if any.
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#115 Valor5

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 03:22 AM

I've been looking into the heat shock proteins. They seem like novel targets it seems for neurotoxic prevention. Also, memantine according to, "Effects of Memantine on Neuronal Structure and Conditioned Fear in the Tg2576 Mouse Model of Alzheimer's Disease" concludes that, "chronic memantine administration may have both neuroprotective and neurotoxic effects in mouse model of AD." They used 10 and 20 mg/kg for high and 5mg/kg for low. So, for those who like to use memantine it has been shown to be neurotoxic and also when combined with donepezil it is also neurotoxic in rats. They off course used a huge dose which may be irrelevant to humans since a kilogram is 2.2 pounds they gave the mice a human dose so probably humans are safe at the usually prescribed doses and the tests were carried for 6 months so I assume for all the amphetamine users six months of memantine should have no adverse affects according to this study.

Another interesting finding for the amphetamine users is the use of the polyphenolic compounds of grapes as another strategy for cell survival.

We identified wine polyphenolic compounds as the major components
responsible for A-lowering activity in the red wine.
Based on this observation and the fact that the majority of polyphenolic
compounds found in red wine are derived from grape
seed and skin, we explore the potential development of a commercially
available grape seed polyphenolic extract [MegaNatural
grape seed polyphenolic extract (GSPE); Polyphenolics] as a
nutraceutical alternative to moderate red wine consumption to
attenuate AD-type cognitive deterioration. GSPE is a highly purified
and well characterized water-soluble polyphenolic preparation
from the seeds of Vitis vinifera. Our studies’ intent is to
develop a highly tolerable, nontoxic, orally available reagent for
the prevention and treatment of AD dementia.


Targeting Heat Shock Proteins in Tauopathies.
Home » Latest PubMed Articles » Current Alzheimer research » Targeting Heat Shock Proteins in Tauopathies.
Summary

Heat shock proteins are members of a large family that function normally in nascent protein folding and the removal of damaged proteins and are able to respond to cellular stresses such as thermal insult to prevent catastrophic protein aggregation. A number of the most common neurodegenerative disorders such as Alzheimer's and Parkinson's diseases are characterized by such abnormal protein folding and aggregation, and the induction of the heat shock response is observed in these cases through their increased expression and often localization within the inclusions. Tau proteins form the major structural component of the neurofibrillary protein aggregates that correlate with cognitive decline in Alzheimer's disease, and appropriately this abnormal tau is targeted for corrective action by the heat shock proteins that recognize sequence motifs that are normally masked though microtubule binding. This specific heat shock response to the formation of abnormal tau can also be targeted pharmacologically to inhibit the refolding pathways and drive the degradation of tau species that are thought to be pathogenic. This review discusses the recent advances of the roles of heat shock proteins in this process.


Effect of 3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine on dendritic spine dynamics in rat neocortical neurons - Involvement of heat shock protein 27.
Home » Latest PubMed Articles » Brain research » Effect of 3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine on dendritic spine dynam...
Summary

Along with chronic neurotoxic effects, the long-term consumption of amphetamines has been associated to psychiatric symptoms and memory disturbances. Dendritic spine dynamics have been discussed as a possible morphological correlate. However, the underlying mechanisms are still elusive. 3,4-Methylenedioxyamphetamine (MDA), a major drug of abuse and a main metabolite after 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) intake, provokes a loss of dendritic spine-like protrusions in primary cultures of rat cortical neurons. 3,4-Methylenedioxyamphetamine also induced a rapid activation of the p38 mitogen activated protein kinase (p38 MAPK) pathway and phosphorylation of heat shock protein 27 (hsp27) indicative for its decreased chaperone activity. Concurrent pharmacological inhibition of the p38 MAPK by SB203580 abolished hsp27 phosphorylation and diminished the loss of dendritic spine-like protrusions. Moreover, upon MDA treatment dendritic spine-like protrusions were stabilized in neurons constitutively expressing hsp27. In parallel experiments we observed a robust activation of the heat shock transcription factor 1 (HSF-1) and a subsequent increase of hsp27 and hsp70. The regulation of small heat shock proteins corroborates the existence of a neuronal stress response after MDA treatment. Pharmacological targeting of small heat shock protein phosphorylation may provide a new strategy to preserve spine integrity after amphetamine exposure.


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#116 Delta Gamma

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 05:03 AM

Fascinating. I'll try and respond when I'm in less of a post wisdom teeth extraction daze. Good work all of you :)

#117 InquilineKea

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 06:40 PM

Wow - just look at this study now:

http://www.reddit.co...isease_in_meth/


The researchers examined almost 300,000 hospital records from California covering 16 years. Patients admitted to hospital for methamphetamine or amphetamine-use disorders had a 76 per cent higher risk of developing Parkinson's disease compared to those with no disorder.
Globally, methamphetamine and similar stimulants are the second most commonly used class of illicit drugs.
"This study provides evidence of this association for the first time, even though it has been suspected for 30 years," said lead researcher Dr. Russell Callaghan, a scientist with CAMH. Parkinson's disease is caused by a deficiency in the brain's ability to produce a chemical called dopamine. Because animal studies have shown that methamphetamine damages dopamine-producing areas in the brain, scientists have worried that the same might happen in humans.
It has been a challenge to establish this link, because Parkinson's disease develops in middle and old age, and it is necessary to track a large number of people with methamphetamine addiction over a long time span.
The CAMH team took an innovative approach by examining hospital records from California – a state in which methamphetamine use is prevalent – from 1990 up to 2005. In total, 40,472 people, at least 30 years of age, had been hospitalized due to a methamphetamine- or amphetamine-use disorder during this period.
These patients were compared to two groups: 207,831 people admitted for appendicitis with no diagnosis of any type of addiction, and 35,335 diagnosed with cocaine use disorders. A diagnosis of Parkinson's disease was identified from hospital records or death certificates. Only the methamphetamine group had an increased risk of developing Parkinson's disease.
While the appendicitis group served as a comparison to the general population, the cocaine group was selected for two reasons. Because cocaine is another type of stimulant that affects dopamine, this group could be used to determine whether the risk was specific to methamphetamine stimulants. Cocaine users also served as a control group to account for the health effects or lifestyle factors associated with dependence on an illicit drug.
"It is important for the public to know that our findings do not apply to patients who take amphetamines for medical purposes, such as attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), since these patients use much lower doses of amphetamines than those taken by patients in our study," said Dr. Stephen Kish, a CAMH scientist and co-author.
To put the study findings into numbers, if 10,000 people with methamphetamine dependence were followed over 10 years, 21 would develop Parkinson's, compared with 12 people out of 10,000 from the general population. "It is also possible that our findings may underestimate the risk because in California, methamphetamine users may have had less access to health-care insurance and consequently to medical care," said Dr. Callaghan.
The current project is significant because it is one of the few studies examining the long-term association between methamphetamine use and the development of a major brain disorder. "Given that methamphetamine and other amphetamine stimulants are the second most widely used illicit drugs in the world, the current study will help us anticipate the full long-term medical consequences of such problematic drug use," said Dr. Callaghan.


Still, 76% is not a HUGE increase in risk, given the MASSIVE doses of methamphetamine these guys take. If we applied them to ADD drugs like Adderall (at ADD-ish doses), I'm pretty sure that it will drop to around 10% or something.

Edited by InquilineKea, 26 July 2011 - 06:42 PM.


#118 Valor5

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 04:00 AM

Wow - just look at this study now:

http://www.reddit.co...isease_in_meth/


The researchers examined almost 300,000 hospital records from California covering 16 years. Patients admitted to hospital for methamphetamine or amphetamine-use disorders had a 76 per cent higher risk of developing Parkinson's disease compared to those with no disorder.
Globally, methamphetamine and similar stimulants are the second most commonly used class of illicit drugs.
"This study provides evidence of this association for the first time, even though it has been suspected for 30 years," said lead researcher Dr. Russell Callaghan, a scientist with CAMH. Parkinson's disease is caused by a deficiency in the brain's ability to produce a chemical called dopamine. Because animal studies have shown that methamphetamine damages dopamine-producing areas in the brain, scientists have worried that the same might happen in humans.
It has been a challenge to establish this link, because Parkinson's disease develops in middle and old age, and it is necessary to track a large number of people with methamphetamine addiction over a long time span.
The CAMH team took an innovative approach by examining hospital records from California – a state in which methamphetamine use is prevalent – from 1990 up to 2005. In total, 40,472 people, at least 30 years of age, had been hospitalized due to a methamphetamine- or amphetamine-use disorder during this period.
These patients were compared to two groups: 207,831 people admitted for appendicitis with no diagnosis of any type of addiction, and 35,335 diagnosed with cocaine use disorders. A diagnosis of Parkinson's disease was identified from hospital records or death certificates. Only the methamphetamine group had an increased risk of developing Parkinson's disease.
While the appendicitis group served as a comparison to the general population, the cocaine group was selected for two reasons. Because cocaine is another type of stimulant that affects dopamine, this group could be used to determine whether the risk was specific to methamphetamine stimulants. Cocaine users also served as a control group to account for the health effects or lifestyle factors associated with dependence on an illicit drug.
"It is important for the public to know that our findings do not apply to patients who take amphetamines for medical purposes, such as attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), since these patients use much lower doses of amphetamines than those taken by patients in our study," said Dr. Stephen Kish, a CAMH scientist and co-author.
To put the study findings into numbers, if 10,000 people with methamphetamine dependence were followed over 10 years, 21 would develop Parkinson's, compared with 12 people out of 10,000 from the general population. "It is also possible that our findings may underestimate the risk because in California, methamphetamine users may have had less access to health-care insurance and consequently to medical care," said Dr. Callaghan.
The current project is significant because it is one of the few studies examining the long-term association between methamphetamine use and the development of a major brain disorder. "Given that methamphetamine and other amphetamine stimulants are the second most widely used illicit drugs in the world, the current study will help us anticipate the full long-term medical consequences of such problematic drug use," said Dr. Callaghan.


Still, 76% is not a HUGE increase in risk, given the MASSIVE doses of methamphetamine these guys take. If we applied them to ADD drugs like Adderall (at ADD-ish doses), I'm pretty sure that it will drop to around 10% or something.


That is interesting. To my recollection by the time someone has Parkinsons or gets a diagnoses of Parkinsons there dopamine nueronal loss is around 80% to 90%. Which is not a good thing. I don't think there is doubt that these drugs do cause and can cause apoptosis. What this seems to say to me is that we have a great deal of them, I suppose, that Parkinson like symptoms do not show except through very chronic use, yet I do not doubt there is neurotoxicity and the loss of neurons. I am not sure how a physician would diagnose Parkinsons. Does he just look at the signs and symptoms? Because, if he or she does, it seems to me that it is already too late. These people exhibit tremors, "pillrolling," muscle rigidity, wide eyed unblinking stare, slightly open mouth, drooling, slowness of movement, decreased range of motion, poor handwritting, shuffling step, diminished arm swing, and affected speech. I would hope a physician would catch and diminish the loss way before this point. According to a paper I read and others 5% seems to be a genetic predisposition, parkin gene, but other causes are herbicides, pesticides, insecticides and carbon monoxide. Also, I think oxidative stress caused by iron is another culprit. Anyway, even though amphetamines may not be the main culprit, I think it still very wise to do all you can to save every last one of those neurons because it seems to me like perhaps these days the ability to detect it earlier is not there. We, I guess can not keep track of our neurons.

#119 Delta Gamma

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Posted 09 August 2011 - 02:43 AM

I've been doing some studying up on the topic in my scant time off lately and it appears that VMAT2 is more protective and less stable than I thought.
http://neuro.cjb.net...8/39/9850.short
http://neuro.cjb.net...8/39/9850.short

I also looked at some of the heat shock protein papers and couldn't really find anything I could really assume happens at human usage patterns.

And, to those of you who are intolerant to curcumin it looks like low dose daily aspirin may help prevent both inflammation, hyperthermia, and perhaps indirectly free radical formation.

http://www.springerl...7762m7vwx57t37/

If anyone can find a paper detailing regional changes in VMAT2 in amphetamine users vs controls I would <3 you.

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#120 InquilineKea

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 05:29 AM

Wow..

http://www.scienceda...10220193013.htm


The study involved 66,348 people in northern California who had participated in the Multiphasic Health Checkup Cohort Exam between 1964 and 1973 and were evaluated again in 1995. The average age of the participants at the start of the study was 36 years old. Of the participants, 1,154 people had been diagnosed with Parkinson's disease by the end of the study.
Exposure to amphetamines was determined by two questions: one on the use of drugs for weight loss and a second question on whether people often used Benzedrine or Dexedrine. Amphetamines were among the drugs commonly used for weight loss when this information was collected.
According to the study, those people who reported using Benzedrine or Dexedrine were nearly 60 percent more likely to develop Parkinson's than those people who didn't take the drugs. There was no increased risk found for those people who used drugs for weight loss.






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