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Another Reason to Moderate Methionine Intake


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#1 Michael

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 07:51 PM


All:

The evidence is now pretty convincing that actual methionine *restriction* (reducing Met + Cys intake to way-below-RDA levels) does slow down aging in mammals (rodents) independently of CR per se. However, MetR to the degree required to actually retard aging is crazy to attempt as a human, and cannot be achieved while eating natural foods, despite the fact that folks keep confusing MetR with what one might call "Met moderation:" simply trying to avoid going too far over the RDA of Met (or the more evidence-based targets discussed in the post linked below).

That said, there IS good reason to practice "Met moderation!" There is prospective epidemiology supporting the deleterious impact of high met on coronary disease.

All this and more, including the practicalities of MM, are discussed in some detail and rigorously documented in the following post:

http://www.mfoundati...37&postcount=11

(Note that this post was heavy on emphasizing the limitations of the MetR research at that time; today, I find it pretty convincing -- just irrelevant for human application).

Additionally: a previous rodent study (1) had found that excess Met, independent of its effects on Hcy, could accelerate atherosclerosis in mutant mice designed to model the disease:

"Animals with genetic hyperhomocysteinemia have so far not displayed atheromatous lesions. However, when methionine-rich diets are used to induce hyperhomocysteinemia, vascular pathology is often observed. Such studies have not distinguished the effects of excess dietary methionine from those of hyperhomocysteinemia. We fed apolipoprotein E-deficient mice with experimental diets designed to achieve three conditions: (i) high methionine intake [~2.33 times what's in normal rodent chow] with normal blood homocysteine [because of a little extra B-vitamins]; (ii) high methionine intake with B vitamin deficiency and hyperhomocysteinemia; and (iii) normal methionine intake with B vitamin deficiency and hyperhomocysteinemia."

" Mice fed methionine-rich diets had significant atheromatous pathology in the aortic arch even with normal plasma homocysteine levels, whereas mice fed B vitamin-deficient diets developed severe hyperhomocysteinemia without any increase in vascular pathology. Our findings suggest that moderate increases in methionine intake are atherogenic in susceptible mice."(1)


This might explain why elevated Hcy is *reasonably* consistently associated with risk of atherosclerosis and other bad CVD outcomes, but administration of B-vitamins to correct it in clinical trials don't improve outcomes, and may even worsen them.

Now the reason why I've called you here today ;) is a new study (2) investigating the reasons why homocysteine seems to be linked to risk of Alzheimer's:

"we elevated plasma homocysteine by feeding mutant amyloid precursor protein (APP)-expressing mice [who develop beta-amyloid plaques and some limited cognitive deficits somewhat similar to AD -MR] diets with either high methionine (HM) [~5-fold the amount in their regular chow -- see Table S1] or deficient in B-vitamins and folate (B Def). "

"Mutant APP mice fed HM demonstrated increased brain beta amyloid. Interestingly, this increase was not observed in mutant APP mice fed B Def diet, nor was it observed in C57Bl6 [non-mutant] or YAC-APP mice fed HM. ["YAC-APP mice express human APP, including its proximal genomic DNA, express Aβ at levels greater than endogenous, but lower than those achieved with the NFEV mutation. Also, none of these lines develop plaque pathology."] Furthermore, HM, but not B Def, produced a prolonged increase in *brain* homocysteine only in mutant APP mice but not wild-type mice. These changes were time-dependent over 10 weeks. Further, by 10 weeks HM increased brain cholesterol and phosphorylated tau in mutant APP mice. Transcriptional profiling experiments revealed robust differences in RNA expression between C57Bl6 and mutant APP mice. The HM diet in C57Bl6 mice transiently induced a transcriptional profile similar to mutant APP cortex, peaking at 2 weeks, following a time course comparable to brain homocysteine changes." (2)


One caveat, in addition to the fact that these mice aren't really great models of human AD: while many normal human diets contain 5 RDA of Met + Cys, it appears that the effects the increase in Met intake in (2) was substantially greater: "The concentration of methionine used in these studies is at the upper range of tolerability. While mice appeared healthy and exhibited normal locomotor and exploratory activity, growth retardation was noticed. Methionine excess could alter more than just Hcy metabolism, such as disrupting the balance of amino acid metabolism. Despite such non-specific consequences, we believe there are reasons to think the changes are relevant to APP metabolism. These reasons include (i) evidence of a specific gene–diet interaction; (ii) links between APP, Hcy, and cholesterol; and (iii) the unbiased approach of transcriptional profiling."

References
1: Troen AM, Lutgens E, Smith DE, Rosenberg IH, Selhub J. The atherogenic effect
of excess methionine intake. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2003 Dec
9;100(25):15089-94. Epub 2003 Dec 1. PubMed PMID: 14657334; PubMed Central PMCID:
PMC299913.
http://www.pnas.org/...0/25/15089.long

2: McCampbell A, Wessner K, Marlatt MW, Wolffe C, Toolan D, Podtelezhnikov A, Yeh
S, Zhang R, Szczerba P, Tanis KQ, Majercak J, Ray WJ, Savage M. Induction of
Alzheimer's-like changes in brain of mice expressing mutant APP fed excess
methionine. J Neurochem. 2011 Jan;116(1):82-92. doi:
10.1111/j.1471-4159.2010.07087.x. Epub 2010 Dec 2. PubMed PMID: 21054384.
http://onlinelibrary...10.07087.x/full
http://onlinelibrary...7-TableS1-2.pdf

#2 Sillewater

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 11:48 PM

Currently what is your daily leucine and (Methionine + Cysteine) intake at? I've been lowering mine for the past couple months and can only achieve the requirements (as per the IAAO method [1]) without consuming meat. Been thinking about going vegetarian. In your experience are legumes the lowest source of these amino acids per g of protein? Using the NutritionData tool (http://nutritiondata...nutrient-search) I couldn't find anything else useful besides gelatin.

References

1.Curr Opin Clin Nutr Metab Care. 2010 Jan;13(1):52-7.Evidence that protein requirements have been significantly underestimated.Elango R, Humayun MA, Ball RO, Pencharz PB.

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#3 Sillewater

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 12:34 AM

A study along the same lines:

Neurosci Lett. 2011 Apr 25;494(2):139-44. Epub 2011 Mar 4.Methionine diet-induced hyperhomocysteinemia accelerates cerebral aneurysm formation in rats.Xu Y, Tian Y, Wei HJ, Dong JF, Zhang JN.

#4 Forever21

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 02:25 AM

Is it likely that a lifelong Vegan following a healthy diet of fruits, vegetables, leafy greens, adequate legume / lentil protein, limited grains to delay aging without hunger? or is reduction of calorie still necessary?

How come we don't have records of supercentenarian vegans? The Okinawans eat fish & pork. The Adventists love their high-met grain products.
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#5 capsun

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 08:55 PM

(Note that this post was heavy on emphasizing the limitations of the MetR research at that time; today, I find it pretty convincing -- just irrelevant for human application).


Michael, I have not yet had time to formulate a reply to your last post concerning methionine restriction, but I have studied methionine restriction extensively with dozens of pages of notes, copies of every study with my own calculations, and my conclusion was that the amount of methionine+cysteine in methionine restriction relevant to humans is much higher than your calculated ~263mg. In fact, there is good reason to believe humans would die on this amount. The problem with your calculation is that you are basing that off of the RDA (1330mg) rather than the studies themselves. The mice on ad libitum diets receive very high amounts of methionine, comparatively speaking. Please allow me time to share my findings with the community in a few months as I am swamped at the moment. That said, I believe you are correct that methionine restriction (and I do believe restriction is possible) should not be discarded as a potential way to extend human life.

#6 stephen_b

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 06:41 PM

How about moderate alcohol consumption as a way to offset methionine? I remember reading that methionine is used by the body to get rid of alcohol, though I can't find a reference for that.

#7 Forever21

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 06:44 PM

How about moderate alcohol consumption as a way to offset methionine? I remember reading that methionine is used by the body to get rid of alcohol, though I can't find a reference for that.




http://www.longecity...off-by-cooking/



#8 Donnie

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 09:10 AM

Michael,

Since you need more protein to maintain nitrogen balance on a calorie restricted diet, I was wondering, for those of us whose ego is wrapped around having a decent mass of muscle tissue, if a moderate calorie with low protein intake, would be a more viable/better longevity strategy than the reverse of slightly calorie restricted/higher protein intake?

#9 Michael

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 02:09 PM

Currently what is your daily leucine and (Methionine + Cysteine) intake at?

I need to do a more recent analysis, but my most recently-crunched representative week (from last fall) had:

MET | 1.2 g 81%
CYS | 1.0 g 70%
LEU | 4.8 g 150%

I've been lowering mine for the past couple months and can only achieve the requirements (as per the IAAO method [1]) without consuming meat.

I honestly don't see how one could do it with any more than a smidgen.

In your experience are legumes the lowest source of these amino acids per g of protein? Using the NutritionData tool (http://nutritiondata...nutrient-search) I couldn't find anything else useful besides gelatin.

Legumes, gelatin, and nearly any vegtable protein. Really, when you only want to get the RDA of protein and avoid empty carbs (including grains), you suddenly discover that the protein in stuff like broccoli and asparagus adds up pretty quickly ...

A study along the same lines:

Neurosci Lett. 2011 Apr 25;494(2):139-44. Epub 2011 Mar 4.Methionine diet-induced hyperhomocysteinemia accelerates cerebral aneurysm formation in rats.Xu Y, Tian Y, Wei HJ, Dong JF, Zhang JN.

The important difference is thatt, as the title indicates, this study was in "Methionine diet-induced hyperhomocysteinemia," which would presumably be reversed with adequate B12 and folate (which is why in practice omnivores as a group have lower Hcy than veg(etari)ans. The important thing about the studies I cited is that the effects occur absent hyperhomocysteinemia, as a feature of Met consumption & metabolism itself.

Is it likely that a lifelong Vegan following a healthy diet of fruits, vegetables, leafy greens, adequate legume / lentil protein, limited grains to delay aging without hunger? or is reduction of calorie still necessary?

As indicated previously, it's impossible to achieve the kinds of extreme reductions in Met + Cys required to achieve actual Met restriction while eating natural foods. So the question is moot.

How come we don't have records of supercentenarian vegans? The Okinawans eat fish & pork. The Adventists love their high-met grain products.

For reasons given above, there's no reason to expect that you would. It's also true that because you don't know someone is going to be a centenarian until they actually are, there's no way to do prospective studies on the subject. The exception that proves the rule is the offspring and relatives of familial centenarians, and in those cases the whole point is that it's genes rather than lifestyle that's contributing to their slow-aging phenotype.

Since you need more protein to maintain nitrogen balance on a calorie restricted diet ... [would] a moderate calorie with low protein intake, be a more viable/better longevity strategy than the reverse of slightly calorie restricted/higher protein intake?

I can think of no strong reason to think that EITHER of these options is likely to have much effect on aging, or even on life expectancy if they're otherwise both healthy diets.

#10 Sillewater

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 04:14 PM

[I need to do a more recent analysis, but my most recently-crunched representative week (from last fall) had:

MET | 1.2 g 81%
CYS | 1.0 g 70%
LEU | 4.8 g 150%


Do you consume dairy? Based on the leucine value you probably do right? Or do you get enough calcium through the various vegetables.

The important difference is thatt, as the title indicates, this study was in "Methionine diet-induced hyperhomocysteinemia," which would presumably be reversed with adequate B12 and folate (which is why in practice omnivores as a group have lower Hcy than veg(etari)ans. The important thing about the studies I cited is that the effects occur absent hyperhomocysteinemia, as a feature of Met consumption & metabolism itself.


Your (2) is due to high methionine feeding leading to Hcy increase which may be related to Alzheimer's. Do you think that for HIGH Hcy in humans, B-vitamin administration will lead to a considerable decrease in levels? My friends dad has high Hcy, should b-supplementation be recommended. He won't change his dietary habits. He is an omnivore.

#11 Sillewater

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 11:43 PM

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2011 May;96(5):E836-40. Epub 2011 Feb 23.Dietary methionine restriction increases fat oxidation in obese adults with metabolic syndrome.Plaisance EP, Greenway FL, Boudreau A, Hill KL, Johnson WD, Krajcik RA, Perrone CE, Orentreich N, Cefalu WT, Gettys TW.


In this study they split the subjects into two groups: 1)2mg/kg/day of methionine utilizing an artificial diet and 2) 33mg/kg/day via supplementation and recommendation for exclusion of animal products and grains. The difference seems minimal in the two groups. The only thing I see is that weight loss is beneficial. Also 2mg/kg/day isn't feasible for normal dietary alterations.

#12 yoyo

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Posted 18 May 2011 - 04:24 AM

I hadn't realized before that taurine is synthesized from methionine (though its sort of obvious; taurine is a sulfur containing amino sulfonic acid)

here they found control diet + cysteine had higher taurine levels. I had been thinking methionine=bad; taurine=good for aging before...
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2999932/

#13 Forever21

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Posted 22 May 2011 - 08:42 AM

Is it likely that a lifelong Vegan following a healthy diet of fruits, vegetables, leafy greens, adequate legume / lentil protein, limited grains to delay aging without hunger? or is reduction of calorie still necessary?

How come we don't have records of supercentenarian vegans? The Okinawans eat fish & pork. The Adventists love their high-met grain products.


Answer to my own question:
http://www.longecity...gf-1-primarily/

#14 Michael

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 05:56 PM

I need to do a more recent analysis, but my most recently-crunched representative week (from last fall) had:

MET | 1.2 g 81%
CYS | 1.0 g 70%
LEU | 4.8 g 150%

Do you consume dairy? Based on the leucine value you probably do right? Or do you get enough calcium through the various vegetables.

Yes, but not a lot: 1/2 C kefir with breakfast, the milk that goes into the low-protein 3.0 formulation of Megamuffins, and some fat-free mozza a few times a week. Most of my Ca does come from green veg, yes.

The important difference is that, as the title indicates, this study was in "Methionine diet-induced hyperhomocysteinemia," which would presumably be reversed with adequate B12 and folate (which is why in practice omnivores as a group have lower Hcy than veg(etari)ans. The important thing about the studies I cited is that the effects occur absent hyperhomocysteinemia, as a feature of Met consumption & metabolism itself.

Your (2) is due to high methionine feeding leading to Hcy increase which may be related to Alzheimer's.

I stand corrected on that; I mistook the silence in the abstract about the second model as an exclusion, which it was -- from both brain Hcy AND Abeta pathology. Note that (interstingly) high-Met feeding raised brain Hcy, but not blood.

Do you think that for HIGH Hcy in humans, B-vitamin administration will lead to a considerable decrease in levels?

It certainly should -- that's how they usually do it. He could also work on getting more folate from veg, preferably thru' veg, or if not then via a non-folic-acid folate-equivalent supplement.

My friends dad has high Hcy, should b-supplementation be recommended. He won't change his dietary habits. He is an omnivore.

Do you just mean he won't stop eating meat, or that he won't change his diet at all? If the latter, slap him first.

I hadn't realized before that taurine is synthesized from methionine (though its sort of obvious; taurine is a sulfur containing amino sulfonic acid)

here they found control diet + cysteine had higher taurine levels. I had been thinking methionine=bad; taurine=good for aging before...
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2999932/

Met is an essential nutrient. You can't expect that it will be unmitigatedly evil, or that reducing its intake will come at no cost or potential risk. Mucking around with fundamental metabolic processes in an atttempt to minimize their damaging side-effects is necessarily crude, weak, dangerous practice; that's why we need engineering solutions to aging, to remove, repair, replace, and render harmless the cellular and molecular damage of aging, instead of trying to outsmart the biochemical pathways that support life itself. Meanwhile, you pays your money and you takes your chance.

Is it likely that a lifelong Vegan following a healthy diet of fruits, vegetables, leafy greens, adequate legume / lentil protein, limited grains to delay aging without hunger? or is reduction of calorie still necessary?

How come we don't have records of supercentenarian vegans? The Okinawans eat fish & pork. The Adventists love their high-met grain products.

Answer to my own question:
http://www.longecity...gf-1-primarily/

Actually, that doesn't answer your question: this does. Also, remember IAC that the protein/IGF-1 issue has no relationship with the Met+Cys toxicity issue.

#15 Forever21

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 06:14 PM

Thanks Michael.




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