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sulbutiamine and tolerance

how to avoid it

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#1 canz

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 11:43 AM


I'm going to be experimenting with some sulbutiamine soon starting at 200mg once per day then moving up accordingly if necessary. Based on how I respond I may go up to 200mg three times per day.

From my research I've noticed that many experience tolerance issues within the first week. Have any of you built a tolerance to this supplement this quickly? What is the best way to avoid tolerance build up without having to take a significant break from taking it?

I'm worried that within the first week I will build a tolerance and have to increase the dose to one that is dangerously high or not cost effective.

I'm also concerned with any negative side effects that are not widely known (I think I recall Devin Thayer mentioning it but cannot find it).

Edited by canz, 14 September 2011 - 11:44 AM.


#2 Dirk_Diggler

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 12:37 AM

I built tolerance REALLY quickly. I usually only use Sulbutiamine when I need to be focused and fatigue-free.

Some people (including myself) need much higher doses than 200mg. I usually use at least 800mg when I do use it, and more than likely I use 1200mg.

I have known a few people to say that Sulbutiamine dramatically reduces the effects of veisalgia (alcohol hangover).

The only side effects I experienced were insomnia when I took it later in the day. But no serious side effects I noticed.

Again, I built tolerance insanely quickly to this stuff. Best used only on days you need that extra "kick". It's also good for workout because it allows me to get "in the zone".

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#3 JChief

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 03:49 AM

I'm going to be experimenting with some sulbutiamine soon starting at 200mg once per day then moving up accordingly if necessary. Based on how I respond I may go up to 200mg three times per day.

From my research I've noticed that many experience tolerance issues within the first week. Have any of you built a tolerance to this supplement this quickly? What is the best way to avoid tolerance build up without having to take a significant break from taking it?

I'm worried that within the first week I will build a tolerance and have to increase the dose to one that is dangerously high or not cost effective.

I'm also concerned with any negative side effects that are not widely known (I think I recall Devin Thayer mentioning it but cannot find it).



I found that breaking the dose up several times a day is not necessary as it seems to last most of the day on a single effective dose. My first go round I took 300mg and did not notice much. I required about ~850mg to feel the effects. Usually verbal fluency and a quick wit are the things I seem to notice the most (also a slightly euphoric feeling). Also pre-workout it definitely gives you a boost/increased focused aka "in the zone" feeling as was said in a previous post. I do not take it every day. Recently I tried to lower the dose to 600mg and felt good effects. Bottom line, it usually requires more than 200mg to get the desired effect and you should only require 1 dose (taken with food/fat soluble) as it seems to last throughout the day for me. I do not take it every day. Usually 2-3 times per week. No tolerance that I can tell. I take it during a down cycle of athletic based supplements (tongkat ali primarily).

#4 canz

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 04:08 AM

Thanks for the replies. I'll probably start with 200mg as I usually respond to the lowest dosages of things like this, and work my way up. I'll also take it first thing in the morning with my fish oil capsule, versus splitting the dose throughout the day. I may try an every other day approach in the hopes that I don't build a tolerance. I guess everyone is different so I'll have to see where my threshold is.

From what I understand though...if tolerance is built I could just stop taking it for a few days and it would be like starting over again? I hope this is the case otherwise it seems to be a waste of money becasue of the build up.

#5 Dirk_Diggler

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 04:18 AM

From what I understand though...if tolerance is built I could just stop taking it for a few days and it would be like starting over again? I hope this is the case otherwise it seems to be a waste of money becasue of the build up.


Exactly...tolerance usually dissapates within a couple of days. It is a vitamin, so it's not like it has any kind of receptor binding. I can't explain why it induces tolerance, but it does.

I found after 2 or 3 days of daily usage that I couldn't tell a difference. But when I only use it as needed, I can usually feel it.

And yes, taking it with some kind of fat (fish oil is excellent) will help tremendously with the effects.

What is your reason for taking it?

#6 canz

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 06:13 AM


Exactly...tolerance usually dissapates within a couple of days. It is a vitamin, so it's not like it has any kind of receptor binding. I can't explain why it induces tolerance, but it does.

I found after 2 or 3 days of daily usage that I couldn't tell a difference. But when I only use it as needed, I can usually feel it.

And yes, taking it with some kind of fat (fish oil is excellent) will help tremendously with the effects.

What is your reason for taking it?


I'm hoping that it will help decrease mental fatigue, increase motivation, and hope to benefit from it's ability to increase physical stamina as well. I am ultra sensitive to caffiene (increases PVCs, and I'm prone to anxiety) so it could be a healthy alternative to other stimulants. Not only that, but my job requires me to breif many people on certain topics, some of which I have to learn on the fly. I'm hoping that this will help increase my verbal fluidity so that I can prevent circumlocution (saying 5000 words when 5 will do). If I can explain something in fewer words so that all can grasp, my bosses have more confidence in the end product.

I'm waiting on some pramiracetam also that I'll be adding to this to improve my cognition.

Edited by canz, 15 September 2011 - 06:13 AM.


#7 JChief

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 06:29 AM


I'm hoping that it will help decrease mental fatigue, increase motivation, and hope to benefit from it's ability to increase physical stamina as well. I am ultra sensitive to caffiene (increases PVCs, and I'm prone to anxiety) so it could be a healthy alternative to other stimulants. Not only that, but my job requires me to breif many people on certain topics, some of which I have to learn on the fly. I'm hoping that this will help increase my verbal fluidity so that I can prevent circumlocution (saying 5000 words when 5 will do). If I can explain something in fewer words so that all can grasp, my bosses have more confidence in the end product.

I'm waiting on some pramiracetam also that I'll be adding to this to improve my cognition.


In my opinion piracetam is a much cheaper racetam and seems to be very effective for a lot of people. You might try that first? But anyhoo here is what I'd the effects are for me for each:


Piracetam: marked increase in visual memory, capacity for empathy, short and long term recall , creativity/fluid intelligence, auditory and visual perception, mild anxiolytic

Sulbutiamine: subtle euphoric effect, increased concentration/focus, increase in verbal fluency, “in the zone” feeling, more sociable, sharpens the wit

as far as stamina may I also suggest eurycoma longifolia? It frees up testosterone (among other things) and definitely increases endurance and stamina. The best form that I've found is from Sumatra Pasak Bumi. You can buy it here or even cheaper here . Another benefit of the herb is it increases confidence. Not that I had an issue before but its noticeable.

Edited by JChief, 15 September 2011 - 06:36 AM.


#8 Dirk_Diggler

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 06:37 AM

I just learned a new word today...circumlocution.

#9 JChief

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 06:40 AM

I just learned a new word today...circumlocution.


lol me too

#10 canz

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 02:25 PM

I just learned a new word today...circumlocution.


lol...I try to keep up on my vocabulary...look for "100 words college students should know".

#11 canz

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 03:42 PM


In my opinion piracetam is a much cheaper racetam and seems to be very effective for a lot of people. You might try that first? But anyhoo here is what I'd the effects are for me for each:


Piracetam: marked increase in visual memory, capacity for empathy, short and long term recall , creativity/fluid intelligence, auditory and visual perception, mild anxiolytic

Sulbutiamine: subtle euphoric effect, increased concentration/focus, increase in verbal fluency, “in the zone” feeling, more sociable, sharpens the wit

as far as stamina may I also suggest eurycoma longifolia? It frees up testosterone (among other things) and definitely increases endurance and stamina. The best form that I've found is from Sumatra Pasak Bumi. You can buy it here or even cheaper here . Another benefit of the herb is it increases confidence. Not that I had an issue before but its noticeable.


I've actually used piracetam in the past with good results. I don't like taking a hand ful of pills so I'm hoping that pramiracetam will have the same effect for me as pira without having to take the two or three pills twice per day that I did with pira along with my other daily vitamins.

I will be looking into the eurycoma longifolia. Thanks.

#12 theAlchemist22

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Posted 29 March 2015 - 10:14 PM

I would just like to weigh in on this matter, since people are more and more beginning to think this slight molecular enhancement (albeit a greatly efficacious enhancement) somehow gives it a stimulant effect. While of course this much increased bioavailability causes its supplementation to wield near phenomenal cognitive and/or therapeutic benefits that can make it seem to wield stimulant properties, this is not the case. To rectify this recent common skewed perception of the pro-vitamin, I would just like to expand on something...------

 

Sulbutiamine as we all know is one of a few biosynthetic, molecularly enhanced versions of thiamine, or vit B1; and rightfully the most noteworthy. It was biosynthesized during attempts to find an efficient way to improve the absorption rate of the 'thio-vitamine'. While Thiamine (namely, estered thiamine) itself can improve cognitive abilities, we know it to have a lower absorption rate, thus less of it actually getting to the brain to increase your factors of intelligence. The sulbutiamine molecule tends to many of these absoprtion difficulties by making this essential nutrient, lipid soluble; so that it absorbs into your blood far more easily. This modification also makes Sulbutiamine capable of better transportation across the blood-brain barrier where it can better interact with the CNS; rather than almost solely acting on the PNS. Supplementing yields significant therapeutic results because the far less bioavailable thiamine we commonly receive from food and B complexes rarely comes anywhere close to entering the encephalon in efficient amounts, therein is not capable of yielding results. The more common routes of thiamine supplementation (mononitrate or HCL) are transported through the peripheral body regions with much greater ease than in attempts to transport these thiamine preparations beyond the blood-brain barrier. Of course, the body understand the need for thiamine in the cephalic; however when great amounts are needed in the peripheral as well, the easier transportation throughout the peripheral causes a much greater amount of the non-excreted thiamine to be carried to the places in the upper and lower body that need rejuvenating kick towards regeneration.. This then leads to the very minute amount of [the estered forms] thiamine left to be transported beyond the BBB. These esters of thiamine take a bit of metabolic energy for your bodily mechanisms to create before the thiamine passes along, later then to be counted among all the other metabolites of the numerous metabolized biochemicals being prepared for excretion.

------

well if anyone actually took the time to read all that and is able to retain the more significant points I exhibited above, then you may recognize my purpose in doing so.

​I may have wrongly perceived my peers' understandings of the molecule's overall profile but if that is so, I feel that which I elaborated on above is still significantly needed to help in the correction of skewed understandings of Sulbutiamine.

 

P.S.notation

The recent mass influx of curiousity-induced impulse research (don't get me wrong, I love to see more and more adults and young adults researching interesting bio-topics) often results in a slightly lacked grand understanding of biochemicals, biosynthetic molecules, and so on. 

I hope very much that the above can lend you a helping hand in your future researched endeavors by helping you build a more in-depth understanding of some of the more basic biomechanics and biomechanisms; as well as help some balance their overall profile towards this pro-vitamin/prodrug-like enhanced bio-regulatory molecule.

 



#13 somuchforthat22

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Posted 30 April 2015 - 01:30 AM

tolerance for sulbatiamine is crazy.  for 2 days, at 200 mg, i thought i found my miracle supplement.  day 3, i doubled the dosage, and still felt nothing. but man, when it works, it's like everything is alright with the world. better, more natural feeling than i get with racetams.



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#14 VerdeGo

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Posted 30 April 2015 - 03:39 AM

I never experienced tolerance with sulbutiamine. I spaced it out to one day per two weeks or so. I doubt it should be taken every day, and I've read about reports of a nasty withdrawal. You need to give your body and your brain time to readjust and reach homeostasis again. Plus the issue with D1 receptor density.


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