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Choline and depression.

yikes.

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23 replies to this topic

#1 yadayada

  • Location:USA
  • yes

Posted 08 January 2012 - 12:29 AM


http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2687891/

Numerous proton magnetic resonance spectroscopy (1H-MRS) studies have linked cytosolic choline levels to the neuropathology of mood disorders (17). Increases in choline in depressed subjects have been noted in adults (1,3) and in pediatric samples (4,5). Conversely, two studies demonstrated reduction in choline (6,7). Auer and others (8) did not note any significant difference in choline levels in the cingulate in their study of MDD subjects and controls. The choline resonance derived by 1H-MRS arises mainly from phosphocholine and glycerophosphocholine (9,10).


Children and adolescents have been relatively understudied with regard to the neurobiology of mood disorders. This is despite the fact that the prevalence of depression increases during adolescence, rising from 1% up to adult levels (6–8%). Mood disorders in youth are associated with impairment in social, family and academic functioning, are highly predictive of future episodes and are significantly related to suicide (11). Despite the prevalence and outcomes associated with the mood disorders, there is a paucity of information about the etiology. Hence, studies of children and adolescents are necessary in order to determine if abnormalities noted in adult populations occur across the life span, how early they present during development, and whether they can be used as predictors for future risk of developing depression. Studies early in the course of an illness also avoid the potential confounds of illness chronicity, hospitalization and long-term medication use. This study endeavors to uncover neurobiological correlates of juvenile depression. Based on the adult literature (13,6,7) and the reports on pediatric depression (4,5), we hypothesized that youth with MDD and those without psychiatric illness will demonstrate differences with regard to cytosolic choline in the prefrontal cortex.

The above is a bit worrying for anyone planning on taking racetams with a choline supplement. Especially when they say they have "brain fog" which sounds something like "depression". Any infor on choline/racetams and depression? Looks like for the most part increased choline levels is something you DON'T want.
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#2 ScienceGuy Re: Choline and depression.

  • Location:UK

Posted 08 January 2012 - 11:29 AM

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2687891/

Numerous proton magnetic resonance spectroscopy (1H-MRS) studies have linked cytosolic choline levels to the neuropathology of mood disorders (17). Increases in choline in depressed subjects have been noted in adults (1,3) and in pediatric samples (4,5). Conversely, two studies demonstrated reduction in choline (6,7). Auer and others (8) did not note any significant difference in choline levels in the cingulate in their study of MDD subjects and controls. The choline resonance derived by 1H-MRS arises mainly from phosphocholine and glycerophosphocholine (9,10).


Children and adolescents have been relatively understudied with regard to the neurobiology of mood disorders. This is despite the fact that the prevalence of depression increases during adolescence, rising from 1% up to adult levels (6–8%). Mood disorders in youth are associated with impairment in social, family and academic functioning, are highly predictive of future episodes and are significantly related to suicide (11). Despite the prevalence and outcomes associated with the mood disorders, there is a paucity of information about the etiology. Hence, studies of children and adolescents are necessary in order to determine if abnormalities noted in adult populations occur across the life span, how early they present during development, and whether they can be used as predictors for future risk of developing depression. Studies early in the course of an illness also avoid the potential confounds of illness chronicity, hospitalization and long-term medication use. This study endeavors to uncover neurobiological correlates of juvenile depression. Based on the adult literature (13,6,7) and the reports on pediatric depression (4,5), we hypothesized that youth with MDD and those without psychiatric illness will demonstrate differences with regard to cytosolic choline in the prefrontal cortex.

The above is a bit worrying for anyone planning on taking racetams with a choline supplement. Especially when they say they have "brain fog" which sounds something like "depression". Any infor on choline/racetams and depression? Looks like for the most part increased choline levels is something you DON'T want.


Let me nip this in the bud for you. The word you are looking for is MODERATION. Just because too much of something can be bad, this DOES NOT mean that it is ALL BAD. For example, consuming too much water can kill you through a process called water intoxication. Does this mean that water is ALL BAD and you should therefore consume NO water at all? Well I’ll let you answer that one for yourself… ;)

Can and does taking too much choline induce mood disruption including DEPRESSION in healthy individuals? YES IT DOES. However, does that mean choline is ALL BAD? Not necessarily; in fact, in this particular case not at all. Again, the word you are looking for is MODERATION.

Are increased choline levels ON ANY LEVEL something you DON'T want? NO, CHOLINE IS AN ESSENTIAL NUTRIENT FOR HUMANS; by definition this means that your body is unable to manufacture it from other sources and your body is unable to function properly without it. Hence if your diet contains insufficient levels, and/or your choline pool is depleted to insufficient levels via some other mechanism, SUCH AS RACETAM SUPPLEMENTATION, then you would become CHOLINE DEFICIENT and begin to suffer the associated symptoms of choline deficiency, which with MILD deficiency can include: Impaired cognition and problems with memory (including brain fog); headache, fatigue, insomnia, poor ability of the kidneys to concentrate urine, and nerve-muscle imbalances; and with moderate to severe choline deficiencies include: liver dysfunction, cardiovascular disease, impaired growth, abnormalities in bone formation, lack of red blood cell formation, infertility, respiratory distress in newborns, failure to thrive in newborns, kidney failure, anemia, and high blood pressure.

IN SUMMARY: TOO MUCH choline can indeed induce MOOD DISRUPTION, including DEPRESSION, in healthy individuals (as well as a whole array of other undesirable side effects), however TOO LITTLE choline is EQUALLY BAD in that it comes with its own array of undesirable side effects that you also don’t want. And since there is mounting evidence that some at least of the RACETAMS deplete your body’s choline pool (COLURACETAM for example has in fact been scientifically proven to be a Choline uptake enhancer) it make logical sense to supplement with AN APPROPRIATE QUANTITY of additional choline when taking the relevant Racetams.

WHAT IS THE RIGHT QUANTITY TO TAKE? That will depend upon the individual, how much choline they are already intaking from dietary and supplementary sources, and what dosage of the relevant Racetam(s) they are taking. The answer is to ascertain what is the right dosage of choline FOR YOU, by simply evaluating what is the MINIMUM dosage of choline that prevents manifestation of choline deficiency symptoms from occurring (e.g. brain fog, headache etc.), then supplement with NO MORE than that; and by doing so you will 100% eliminate the possibility of choline induced depression and mood-disruption due to too much choline. ;)

Edited by ScienceGuy, 08 January 2012 - 11:35 AM.

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#3 MrHappy Re: Choline and depression.

  • Location:Australia

Posted 08 January 2012 - 11:50 AM

Redan - did you read the post on methylation and depression - explains this well, from memory:

http://www.longecity...075#entry494075


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#4 nito Re: Choline and depression.

Posted 08 January 2012 - 05:29 PM

Redan - did you read the post on methylation and depression - explains this well, from memory:

http://www.longecity...075#entry494075


Mr happy. If someone suffers from mild depression, is it reccomended to avoid the choline when trying out the uridine experiement?
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#5 MrHappy Re: Choline and depression.

  • Location:Australia

Posted 08 January 2012 - 06:19 PM

My recommendation is to use alpha-gpc, which isn't antidopaminergic according to some studies and phase it gradually after the first week or so of taking everything else.


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#6 nito Re: Choline and depression.

Posted 08 January 2012 - 06:22 PM

My recommendation is to use alpha-gpc, which isn't antidopaminergic according to some studies and phase it gradually after the first week or so of taking everything else.



darn need to get alpha too lol. i got cdp, i though i was complete. Any cheap alpha bulk sources?
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#7 MrHappy Re: Choline and depression.

  • Location:Australia

Posted 08 January 2012 - 06:32 PM

Sure. Smartpowders.com and nootrabiolabs (who sell through ebay).


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#8 nito Re: Choline and depression.

Posted 08 January 2012 - 06:34 PM

Sure. Smartpowders.com and nootrabiolabs (who sell through ebay).


Oh totally forgot bout smartpowders. Used to order alot from there. Thanks anyway.
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#9 Jjammem Re: Choline and depression.

  • Location:Worchester, Mass

Posted 29 January 2012 - 10:19 PM

Choline and piracetam work well together as an anti-depressant. I started taking both of them when I was off my benzos. I forgot to mention they work well in increasing cognitive function. Yes I suffered from cognitive impairment from the 2 years I was on Xanax 2mg. I usually stay away from the powders because of the nasty taste. >.< .

Edited by manic_racetam, 08 February 2012 - 01:57 AM.

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#10 absent minded Re: Choline and depression.

Posted 30 January 2012 - 01:09 AM

bioscience nutraceuticals is another bulk supplier for Alpha GPC with 99% purity, price is about the same as Smart Powders, depending on how much you get.

Too bad they don't sell uridine and in smaller quantities, it kinda sucks buying from 2 different stores .... doubles your shipping. Some stores has one product the other doesn't, haha. one had noopept I wanted, but no uridine, the other had uridine but no noopept.

Edited by absent minded, 30 January 2012 - 01:10 AM.

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#11 Thorsten2 Re: Choline and depression.

  • Location:Bristol, UK

Posted 19 July 2013 - 07:28 PM

My recommendation is to use alpha-gpc, which isn't antidopaminergic according to some studies and phase it gradually after the first week or so of taking everything else.


Not sure about that, man. For me, anyway, alpha-gpc was the worst out of all of them for increasing depressive symptons! That's just my N=1, though.
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#12 CLR Re: Choline and depression.

  • Location:United States

Posted 20 July 2013 - 04:37 PM

Thanks for all that info ScienceGuy. I am supplementing with 250 mg of choline twice daily since I am taking 20 mg noopept and 1400 mg aniracetam. However, I also take 200 mg of ALCAR once daily. Is this too much choline?


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#13 magta39 Re: Choline and depression.

  • Location:Los Angeles

Posted 21 July 2013 - 01:17 AM

Here is a theory: too much choline intake over time up-regulates production of Acetylcholine esterase, as the body tries to keep homeostasis. I know after I took too much choline over several days, I got sleepy and brain fog, and felt better after taking 4 mgs galantamine, 1 or 2 capsules.
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#14 Godof Smallthings Re: Choline and depression.

  • Location:Thailand

Posted 21 July 2013 - 03:53 PM


My recommendation is to use alpha-gpc, which isn't antidopaminergic according to some studies and phase it gradually after the first week or so of taking everything else.


Not sure about that, man. For me, anyway, alpha-gpc was the worst out of all of them for increasing depressive symptons! That's just my N=1, though.


Dave Asprey claims around 1/3 of the population is 'choline dominant' which means they do not do well on choline supplementation. I think I belong to that bunch, because whenever I supplement with choline I feel worse (neck tension increases, sometimes causing headache, mood deteriorates).

For me piracetam synergizes well with salmon oil and ALCAR. And eating more eggs than usual. Taking lecithin or Alpha GPC with it, even small doses, makes me feel like crap.
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#15 magta39 Re: Choline and depression.

  • Location:Los Angeles

Posted 23 July 2013 - 05:01 PM

Very interesting, I was thinking back to over a year ago....when piracetam used to work really well, but has since lost its effectiveness. I now realize it lost its effectiveness when I started taking 1 to 2 grams of choline citrate a day...I went back to eating my one or 2 egg yolks per day, and this seems to be enough choline for me. And my piracetam works better too!
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#16 cargocultist Re: Choline and depression.

  • Location:NL
  • no

Posted 24 August 2013 - 03:27 PM

When I consume eggs, just one or two for a couple of days in a row, I always get a depressive effect.
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#17 Ukko Re: Choline and depression.

  • Location:In the Multiverse

Posted 24 August 2013 - 04:46 PM


My recommendation is to use alpha-gpc, which isn't antidopaminergic according to some studies and phase it gradually after the first week or so of taking everything else.


Not sure about that, man. For me, anyway, alpha-gpc was the worst out of all of them for increasing depressive symptons! That's just my N=1, though.


I second that. Alpha GPC is the most potent depression inducing agent I have ever used.
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#18 Shorty Re: Choline and depression.

  • Location:Germany

Posted 24 August 2013 - 06:12 PM



My recommendation is to use alpha-gpc, which isn't antidopaminergic according to some studies and phase it gradually after the first week or so of taking everything else.


Not sure about that, man. For me, anyway, alpha-gpc was the worst out of all of them for increasing depressive symptons! That's just my N=1, though.


I second that. Alpha GPC is the most potent depression inducing agent I have ever used.

I can confirm this. Most down I have ever felt.
I might have overdosed though since I have used Alpha-GPC in moderation since and never had any problems. Follow Science Guys advice and use this substance in moderation.
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#19 garysh566 Re: Choline and depression.

  • Location:u.s

Posted 24 August 2013 - 07:03 PM

When I consume eggs, just one or two for a couple of days in a row, I always get a depressive effect.


why?
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#20 magta39 Re: Choline and depression.

  • Location:Los Angeles

Posted 24 August 2013 - 07:18 PM

50 mgs of alpha GPC sublingually helps with my anxiety.
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#21 cargocultist Re: Choline and depression.

  • Location:NL
  • no

Posted 24 August 2013 - 11:46 PM


When I consume eggs, just one or two for a couple of days in a row, I always get a depressive effect.


why?

Presumably from the choline in the lecithine. I just took some ginger powder and it cleared my head right up. I have reason to believe I suffer from neuroinflammation and perhaps this is aggrevated by taking choline.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20926642

"Choline (p=0.02), creatine (p=0.047) and N-acetyl-aspartate plus N-acetyl-aspartyl-glutamate (NN, p=0.02) concentrations in the basal ganglia and choline concentrations in the white matter (p=0.045) were significantly higher in the patients than in controls."

BUT

"Fatigue correlated negatively with white matter NN, choline and creatine and myo-inositol levels in white and grey matter and basal ganglia (p<0.01)."

"CONCLUSION:
As the increase of choline, creatine and myo-inositol are usually interpreted to indicate glial activation and macrophage infiltration in chronic inflammation and slow virus infections of the brain the present data endorse the hypothesis, that HCV infection may induce neuroinflammation and brain dysfunction. The concomitant increase of NN and the negative correlation to the extent of fatigue suggest a cerebral compensatory process after HCV infection."


So, as the brain compensates for neuroinfammation the result can be fatique (perhaps case dependent / in the worst cases). It is quite reasonable that resting and sleeping are actually the best adaptive behaviours for healing and avoiding danger in case of neuro- or general inflammation. It seems appropriate to take choline before going to bed and not during the day if you suffer from neuroinflammatory conditions.

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#22 Tom_ Re: Choline and depression.

  • Location:england

Posted 25 August 2013 - 11:33 AM

This really is old news. I mean 50 year old news, haha!

This is a very interesting read entitled "The role of acetylcholine mechanisms in affective disorders"

http://www.acnp.org/...1000095/CH.html

There is not much evidence for the use of anticholinergics as antidepressants (although this maybe the the reason for increased efficacy of TCA's over many other ADs) although there is some evidence giving people cholinergics depressed or not will worsen or cause symptoms briefly - a longer term effect has NOT been established. Hell they may even work the other way round after a week or two, although from the few studies of ach inhibitors being slightly effective in refractory mania I wouldn't place much hope on that fact. There is good theoretical support for the idea that increased levels of Ach in the hypothamalus would work much like and SSRI - which is why sulbutramine might be useful.

In general however + ach = depressed - ach = mania (of course thats extreme and related to affective diathesis). The effects on unipolar mood disorder may be different than they are on Bi-polar although its also seen in BPD so would appear to be an across the board problem.

In short, Cholnergics can and do cause depressive episodes.
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#23 nowayout Re: Choline and depression.

  • Location:Earth

Posted 25 August 2013 - 12:29 PM

There is a study linking low brain choline levels with anxiety disorders, so theoretically anxiety might respond to choline supps. What this means for those who have anxious depression I don't know.
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#24 cicada Re: Choline and depression.

  • Location:usa
  • no

Posted 26 August 2013 - 03:29 AM

When I consume eggs, just one or two for a couple of days in a row, I always get a depressive effect.



I too, have very negative effects from egg yokes.Similar results with cdp choline.
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