27 replies to this topic

[wendychan]

I am new to nootropic and this forum.
I read many articles here and found that many of you consume lots of nootropic everyday (some are even over 10 drugs/day). I really wonder such large amount of consumption is bad to health. One obvious issue is the workload of kidney.

Another question: if nootropic is so promising, many doctors should know about it and they should take it. Is it a truth?

[gamesguru]

Please search around before posting. Most doctors are minimalists with regard to supplements, and most will only take 1-4 pharmaceuticals as they age. It's not common to see doctors using garlic/goldenseal to fight bacterial infections, and it's not common to see them use glucosamine/boswellic acid for arthritis, just like it's not common to see them using nootropics to treat cognitive dysfunction. Some doctors even say vitamins are useless, and stress the importance of exercise, diet, and "medicine". Most doctors also never think of using medicine for enhancement, since they've been indoctrinated to think medicine is only meant to return unhealthy people to baseline, and not to make "superhumans" out of healthy people.

Doctors generally ignore everything that's not a prescription because they only generally get paid by patients who are seeking prescriptions. Their opinions mean almost nothing about the effectiveness of non-pharmaceutical supplements. It's true that approved pharmaceuticals often have far more research behind them, so perhaps it's fair for doctors to believe in them, but I bet certain natural supplements are just as effective, if not more, but just haven't been explored yet by researchers (due largely to scarcity).

Edited by dasheenster, 04 April 2012 - 06:47 PM.

[Raptor87]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21179461

I know that they did a survey in Sweden about the attitude about amphetamines on a clinical level. Interestingly enough, research scientist´s claimed that it is ok to ingest amphetamines when task- performing on crucial matters.

They also did an investigation on med- student´s and it said that a lot of them are pro pot and do smoke themselves.

[Mind]

I use caffeine to a small extent (coffee and tea). When I need a boost, I drink a zero calorie energy drink once in a while.

[health_nutty]

I use caffeine to a small extent (coffee and tea). When I need a boost, I drink a zero calorie energy drink once in a while.

Mind, are you a Doctor or Professional? The OP put one question in the topic and a different one in the body.
To paraphrase:
In the topic: "Do any doctors / professionals use nootropics?" (Did he/she mean medical professional?)
In the body: "Do any doctors use nootropics?"

[Mind]

I am a meteorologist, not a medical professional. Sorry if ruined the thread.

[health_nutty]

I am a meteorologist, not a medical professional. Sorry if ruined the thread.

Not at all. I reread what I posted and thought I perhaps sounded rude. That is the problem with forums / email. I am geniuninely curious, both for the thread and because I've read lots of posts from you over many years and have never known.

[kenj]

I use caffeine to a small extent (coffee and tea). When I need a boost, I drink a zero calorie energy drink once in a while.

Mind, did you ever "experiment" with nootropics? Sry if you already addressed this, I've been off the forum for a while. Just curious.

[gamesguru]

Not to insult this community, but there don't seem to be many professional doctors spending time with us. I do not think we have more than a few members who can respond, if we limit ourselves to doctors. I guess it will be just as interesting to hear from any professionals in academics, since that will give this thread a much wider scope than only MDs.

[Mind]

I would like to hear from some MDs as well if they are open to talking about it.

Kenj, the only nootrope that I used for a short period of time, maybe a year, was vinpocetine, small doses. Totally subjective small increase in concentration and coordination is what I experienced. There is a small amount of vinpocetine in Redline, an energy drink I use once in a while. And of course there are small amounts of some other nootropes in various other energy drinks. Not too potent and too numerous to list right now.

[gamesguru]

I'd hardly say you've experimented with nootropics if you only use caffeine occasionally and have used vinpocetine. If that's all you've done, you're really conservative, I think.

[wendychan]

Thanks for all of your sharing. I ask this question because I have doubt about the extra long term effect of nootropics. Especially a mix of 10 or more nootropics a day, whether nootropics increase mortality or cancer, etc.

I am sure amphetamine type drugs give you energy, and some may enhance "short term memory" in lab test, but seems up to this moment I haven't heard about improvement on cognitive ability, or long term memory, am I right?

Anyway, I start taking Piracetam and Lecithin right now, and I think it's quite safe in long term consumption.

[gamesguru]

Let's not compare mild stacks to amphetamines. Amphetamines lead to rapid tolerance, which isn't documented in most popular nootropics. Do amphetamines really help anyone, except parkinsonians? Even then, it's just because of the short-term boost, and the dopamine is toxic in the long run, making the disease worse. What makes me feel confident in the long-term safety of nootropics in young, healthy humans is that with most nootropics, research suggests that your brain is better, not worse, than when you began them. And that holds true even if you quit them indefinitely.

[Raptor87]

As for the doc´s I think they know that we are perfect. It´s just the society put´s up a certain framework on how we should be which causes problems. So most of the addressed issues that doc´s go through is either social or physical. Other than that they probably know that we are beings not doers. Meaning that we should drug ourselves up to be robot´s so we can work.

I think that cognitive enhancement is the result of globalisation and industrial competition between the countries in between.

[DoomAndGloom]

I don't agree that we are perfect, and I wouldn't say all medical doctors think we are 'perfect' either. Its probably easier to say we are 'perfect' from a religious background, and that I can't argue as well, but from an evolutionary standpoint it is much harder.

Evolution does not create perfection.

Natural selection is not all-powerful. There are many reasons that natural selection cannot produce "perfectly-engineered" traits. For example, living things are made up of traits resulting from a complicated set of trade-offs — changing one feature for the better may mean changing another for the worse (e.g., a bird with the "perfect" tail plumage to attract mates maybe be particularly vulnerable to predators because of its long tail). And of course, because organisms have arisen through complex evolutionary histories (not a design process), their future evolution is often constrained by traits they have already evolved. For example, even if it were advantageous for an insect to grow in some way other than molting, this switch simply could not happen because molting is embedded in the genetic makeup of insects at many levels.

[GK77]

I have been taking aniracetam for about a week. I certainly felt clearer and social on ani. Just got piracetam from CH. Trying it for the first time tonight, so not expecting much. Looking for it to sharpen my memory and attention span a bit. Have tried sulbutiamine and phenibut also.
I've been taking the ani with Alpha GPC.

I enjoy supplements and have, over the last 10 yrs, learned how they best work for me.
And, I work at a major hospital in central Florida as a clinical nutritionist.

[Raptor87]

I don't agree that we are perfect, and I wouldn't say all medical doctors think we are 'perfect' either. Its probably easier to say we are 'perfect' from a religious background, and that I can't argue as well, but from an evolutionary standpoint it is much harder.

Evolution does not create perfection.

Natural selection is not all-powerful. There are many reasons that natural selection cannot produce "perfectly-engineered" traits. For example, living things are made up of traits resulting from a complicated set of trade-offs — changing one feature for the better may mean changing another for the worse (e.g., a bird with the "perfect" tail plumage to attract mates maybe be particularly vulnerable to predators because of its long tail). And of course, because organisms have arisen through complex evolutionary histories (not a design process), their future evolution is often constrained by traits they have already evolved. For example, even if it were advantageous for an insect to grow in some way other than molting, this switch simply could not happen because molting is embedded in the genetic makeup of insects at many levels.

Is this what you mean?
http://evolution.ber...Fitenough.shtml

Keep in mind that gene mutations do occur which can have a positive effect!

I was just trying to point out that medicine hasn´t come that far that we can alter who we are. The word perfect is odd looking from an evolutionary standpoint yes. I was more in a philosophical level when I thought of it. There is no likelihood that doc´s would tamper with healthy individuals. And how we work as an organism is almost frightening when someone starts understanding the complexity of us, we have come along way. This is what I meant by perfect. Individually we are perfect and biologically, well we are perfect also cause there isn't anything better for the moment.

But if we are going in to semantics, saying that something is flawed or needs improvement is as contradictory as saying that something is perfect. Nobody can be the judge of an organism. Even tough we humans tend to systematise everything.

http://www.foxnews.c...better-surgery/

[longevitynow]

I have been attending the A4M Anti-Aging Conferences for at least 6 years. A great number of the doctors and other health care practitioners there take or have taken nootropics (drugs or supplements). These are not your average MDs, but the number of MDs who practice some form of holistic or integrative medicine is always increasing as they get burned out in the system.

[wendychan]

I have been attending the A4M Anti-Aging Conferences for at least 6 years. A great number of the doctors and other health care practitioners there take or have taken nootropics (drugs or supplements). These are not your average MDs, but the number of MDs who practice some form of holistic or integrative medicine is always increasing as they get burned out in the system.

That's really what I want to know about, which make me confident in taking nootropics daily without worry.
I am going to add pramiracetam and creatine to my daily stack.
Seems no one talk about creatine here. My friend told me that he combines piracetam (4.8g daily) with creatine (10g daily) with excellent result. However, creatine may harm my slim figure :(

[gamesguru]

Usually a drug which has over 30 years of history with animal and human tests, and no association with disease is a safe drug. I say this as a general principle, though it's not absolute, and unfortunately there are exceptions. What we can say though is that we have a growing level of confidence in the safety of nootropics.

I wouldn't feel any more confident just because some liberal MDs use these compounds. Do their opinions really attest to the safety and efficacy of nootropics? No, those will be determined by research and further investigations.

[LeonardElijah]

Another question: if nootropic is so promising, many doctors should know about it and they should take it. Is it a truth?

In a small town, a friend of mine simply asked the general practice doctor for Adderall because he "needed the energy." The doctor said "I never would have gotten through med school without it" and gave him a prescription.

You'd be suprised how often professional groups look the other way on amphetamine use. They won't be experts on Huperzine A. They simply pop speed and tell their friends how much more productive they became after starting Ritalin.

Professionals don't do drugs. They have a friend who is a doctor, a prescription, insurance coverage, and a white collar environment that looks the other way as long as you aren't trouncing non-users with your productivity.

[LeonardElijah]

Professionals don't know anything about nootropics.

As naieve believers in specialized expertise and authority, they trust their doctors and get prescriptions for what they need. They will tell their doctor they have lethargy and get a prescription for ritalin, then note to their friends how they don't know how they lived without it. Then they have trouble sleeping and get a sleep pill for occasional insomnia. Then they complain how they've always been different in life and get a benzo for occasional intolerable stress. As a precaution, they also get prescription heartburn and high blood pressure medicine at the same time. Then they eat junk, don't exercise, and avoid their relationships, so they get an SSRI, and they read up on all the advantages to increased serotonin such as increased neurogenesis. The medicine for migranes is right behind the muscle relaxers.

Of course they need it, they work 80 hour weeks tied to their blackberry in high power, high stress, high profile, and high prestige cubbyholes that never see the light of day and nobody but them "knows how to do the work."

Conversely, they'll call up the FDA to regulate retailers such as SmartPowders to flex their Moral Majority muscles and get them shut down.

Edited by LeonardElijah, 21 April 2012 - 12:11 AM.

[GK77]

Some of what you say rings true. I work with MD's every day. Many are so set in their ways and go through so many charts each day they don't have time to practice true health care.
Caring for health involves a comprehensive understanding of the pt's history and symptoms, and listening to the pt and the family.
MD's almost always have an ego complex, in which they always disregard the opinion of the pt if it conflicts with their own.
And I can't tell you how many times the pt is right, and the MD is wrong.

So, yeah. Don't look to MD's for guidance when deciding on progressive health decisions. They work under the umbrella of "Do no harm" which means, many times, do nothing.

[Philosopher]

Professionals don't do drugs. They have a friend who is a doctor, a prescription, insurance coverage, and a white collar environment that looks the other way as long as you aren't trouncing non-users with your productivity.

May be the most intelligent thing I've read all day.

[abelard lindsay]

There are several doctors who have published very pro supplement literature. Two that come to mind are Dr. Blaylock and Dr. Eric Braverman.

[GK77]

Hence the words "many" and "most".
I am hoping the numbers of prosupplementation (vs medication) MD's will continue to increase

[Engineer]

Nootropic use is rife among Investment Bankers in London. 100% .

Also, there was an interesting study published by Imperial College London about Modafinil, where they tested it on sleep deprived surgeons. The study concluded that it was effective for prolonged performance of difficult tasks.

[YOLF]

Let's not compare mild stacks to amphetamines. Amphetamines lead to rapid tolerance, which isn't documented in most popular nootropics. Do amphetamines really help anyone, except parkinsonians? Even then, it's just because of the short-term boost, and the dopamine is toxic in the long run, making the disease worse. What makes me feel confident in the long-term safety of nootropics in young, healthy humans is that with most nootropics, research suggests that your brain is better, not worse, than when you began them. And that holds true even if you quit them indefinitely.

FYI, It's used regularly in pharma cough syrup.