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C60 Toxicity Concerns and anecdotal reports


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#1 zorba990

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 08:46 PM


I think we should start a thread where any undesirable side effect of C60 consumption, or concerns about toxicity can be aggregated.
When toxicity effects are potentially pointed out there is a tendency, now, to counter with "C60 in Olive oil is not the same" or blame all the toxicity on possible contaminants. In some cases this has shown to be true, but I think all the data is not yet in and a great deal of caution is still prudent.

e.g.

http://endomoribu.sh...Kanno_IWCTS.pdf

Which was really about nanotubes and possible mesothelioma used C60 as a control, but then found:

During the first study of long fiber MWCNT mentioned above, we found a possible chronic
toxicity of C60 which was used as a negative control for mesotheliomagenesis. A follow up study was conducted; a single injection of 3 mg of fullerene (a suspension of aggregates) was given i.p. to thirty wild type C57Bl/6 male mice. Another thirty mice were given vehicle solution. The body weight gain of the treated mice was significantly suppressed. At weeks 44, most of the C60 injected mice had macroscopic lesions of the kidney(s). It is noted that the peritoneal reaction was mild to minimum in both immune and foreign body reaction. Histopathological analysis indicates the possible target of the chronic nephrotoxicity as renal tubular system. Detailed analysis is underway (manuscript in preparation).

Week 44 is a pretty long ways out, maybe end of life for a human equivalent. Still, although this wasn't ooC60 and it was injected the report is concerning. Without any mechanism of action proven we just don't have any idea if C60 unbinds from the oo, clumps together in VIVO or what.

The reports for gym gains look envying, but I'm not going to risk it on myself just yet. Would like to see above thoroughly refuted...

Edited by zorba990, 11 July 2012 - 09:10 PM.


#2 Anthony_Loera

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 08:54 PM

Hmm...

With my dose of nearly a cup a day... I think my weight is increasing. I highly suggest your mice to be exercising durring the dose, much like AgeVivo's ;)

Once I finish off my week of C60oo I will have to get in a big plastic ball and run down the street... :-D

A
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#3 niner

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 09:01 PM

Would like to see above thoroughly refuted...


I don't want to be the voice of anti-caution, as caution is always warranted in situations like this. However, I am not particularly worried about this study, because:
  • The dose was huge- around 100mg/kg. We are using typically less than 1mg/kg. Remember Paracelsus' dictum: The dose makes the poison.
  • These were dosed in an aggregated form, while we are dosing in solution form
  • These were injected i.p., while we are dosing orally.
All of these are huge differences, toxicologically speaking. It's chemically unlikely for a carbon-carbon bond to break once it has formed, so the odds of the adduct decomposing into free C60 are not high, and even if it did, it's very far from the situation described in this paper.

Edited by niner, 11 July 2012 - 09:02 PM.


#4 nowayout

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 01:08 AM

It's chemically unlikely for a carbon-carbon bond to break once it has formed, so the odds of the adduct decomposing into free C60 are not high, ...


But do the self-help guys on this forum really know for sure what precisely it is they are cooking up in their kitchens.

#5 zorba990

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 06:02 AM

Would like to see above thoroughly refuted...


I don't want to be the voice of anti-caution, as caution is always warranted in situations like this. However, I am not particularly worried about this study, because:
  • The dose was huge- around 100mg/kg. We are using typically less than 1mg/kg. Remember Paracelsus' dictum: The dose makes the poison.
  • These were dosed in an aggregated form, while we are dosing in solution form
  • These were injected i.p., while we are dosing orally.
All of these are huge differences, toxicologically speaking. It's chemically unlikely for a carbon-carbon bond to break once it has formed, so the odds of the adduct decomposing into free C60 are not high, and even if it did, it's very far from the situation described in this paper.


follow up study was conducted; a single injection of 3 mg of fullerene (a suspension of aggregates) was given i.p. to thirty wild type C57Bl/6 male mice. Another thirty mice were given vehicle solution. The body weight gain of the treated mice was significantly suppressed. At weeks 44, most of the C60 injected mice had macroscopic lesions of the kidney(s).
-------

The paper says the follow up was a single 3mg injection and 44 weeks later lesions of the kidneys were detected. Or am I mis-reading?
Why would injected C60 cause kidney lesions but oo Disolved C60 be perfectly safe?

#6 niner

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 12:25 PM

follow up study was conducted; a single injection of 3 mg of fullerene (a suspension of aggregates) was given i.p. to thirty wild type C57Bl/6 male mice. Another thirty mice were given vehicle solution. The body weight gain of the treated mice was significantly suppressed. At weeks 44, most of the C60 injected mice had macroscopic lesions of the kidney(s).
-------

The paper says the follow up was a single 3mg injection and 44 weeks later lesions of the kidneys were detected. Or am I mis-reading?
Why would injected C60 cause kidney lesions but oo Disolved C60 be perfectly safe?


No, you read it right. None of Baati's rats had kidney lesions AFAIK. The most important factor here is DOSE. Sorry to use caps there, but the absolute number one error that is made on this forum day in and day out is that people focus only on an observed action, without paying any attention to the dose required to obtain the action. That little 3mg dose is huge to a mouse, which might weigh 30 grams.

An injection is hugely different than an oral dose. Our digestive tracts evolved over millions of years to keep bad things out of our system, and it's really good at that. An ip injection circumvents all of that. It's a safe bet that the injection mode of delivery is like adding a factor of ten to the dose.

#7 niner

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 02:15 PM

It's chemically unlikely for a carbon-carbon bond to break once it has formed, so the odds of the adduct decomposing into free C60 are not high, ...


But do the self-help guys on this forum really know for sure what precisely it is they are cooking up in their kitchens.


Really know? As in 100.000% certainty? Of course not. Neither do the commercial producers, because none of them, as far as I know, have done any chemical analysis of the products. I hope that they do. In the meanwhile, we know that a lot more C60 dissolves in olive oil than can be accounted for by simple dissolution, and we have spectroscopic evidence that chemical reaction is occurring between C60 and olive oil. We have a pretty good understanding of the kinds of reactions that C60 engages in, and we know the structure of olive oil. Given that, the odds that a C60-fatty acid addition product is forming are good. Once formed, such a product would be unlikely to dissociate and result in aggregates under in vivo conditions. That's all I was really trying to get at. The dose considerations trump this by a large distance, of course.

As I said, I'm not trying to be the voice of anti-caution. We all have our personal levels of risk tolerance, and some are higher than others. I just want to see an accurate risk assessment, rather than unwarranted fear.

#8 zorba990

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 07:51 PM

Thanks for the replies. I didnt realize the mice were only 30g in weight so it does make sense that that is a large dose for them. I was more concerned that a single dose caused damage which didnt seem to show up for a long time. I'm not usually the voice of caution but some c60 issues still concern me -- althought it sounds like a very promosing thing for life extension

#9 abelard lindsay

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 05:57 AM

SWIM with some ocassional kidney issues in the past took 1.5mg (one drop) and noticed benefits. 5 days later SWIM took 1.5mg again and experienced intermittant kidney pain for 4 days. It did go away but it was a bit of a scare. The beneficial effect of the c60 tapered after 4 days but some must have still lingered to cause the kidney effect on the second dose.

#10 Logic

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 11:32 AM

This kidney effect is strange given that Kremezin (Beaded Activated Carbon) is extremely good for renal failure!?

http://morelife.org/...s/kremezin.html

Herxheimer Reaction???

Edited by Logic, 17 July 2012 - 11:34 AM.


#11 niner

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 12:16 PM

This kidney effect is strange given that Kremezin (Beaded Activated Carbon) is extremely good for renal failure!?

Herxheimer Reaction???


Activated carbon and C60 are very different animals. The Herxheimer reaction is the Intewebz go-to phenomenon for any bad reaction caused by a supplement, but I don't think it's applicable here, as C60-oo, particularly in that small of a dose, doesn't have a strong antimicrobial effect, if any at all.

#12 niner

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 12:21 PM

SWIM with some ocassional kidney issues in the past took 1.5mg (one drop) and noticed benefits. 5 days later SWIM took 1.5mg again and experienced intermittant kidney pain for 4 days. It did go away but it was a bit of a scare. The beneficial effect of the c60 tapered after 4 days but some must have still lingered to cause the kidney effect on the second dose.


What was the source of that C60?

#13 Turnbuckle

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 01:07 PM

One person told me privately of a possible interaction between C60/EVOO, a previous exposure to fluoroquinolone, and sun exposure. He hasn't mentioned it here, so perhaps he decided it wasn't real. Still, something to keep in mind.

#14 tintinet

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 03:40 PM

One person told me privately of a possible interaction between C60/EVOO, a previous exposure to fluoroquinolone, and sun exposure. He hasn't mentioned it here, so perhaps he decided it wasn't real. Still, something to keep in mind.


Rather cryptic. Care to elaborate on this interaction?

#15 Junk Master

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 04:19 PM

Yes, please share.

#16 niner

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 05:14 PM

One person told me privately of a possible interaction between C60/EVOO, a previous exposure to fluoroquinolone, and sun exposure. He hasn't mentioned it here, so perhaps he decided it wasn't real. Still, something to keep in mind.


Be afraid. Be very afraid... I will keep it in mind under the heading "I knew this guy who knew this guy who knew this guy's cousin..."
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#17 Turnbuckle

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 05:18 PM

Yes, please share.



This person took high doses of fluoroquinolones last year and had negative mental effects as a result (floxing syndrome). It's know that these quinolones can stay in the body for a long time, and phtotoxicity is known, though this person did not have any obvious problem with sunlight until he began taking C60 and went into the sun. Then he had a recurrance of the negative mental effects he'd had during the fluoroquinolones. They symptons came back full force more than once when exposed to the sun, even after only 30 seconds of sunlight.

He told me this three weeks ago and I haven't heard anything since, so maybe it was a coincidence.

#18 niner

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 05:32 PM

This person took high doses of fluoroquinolones last year and had negative mental effects as a result (floxing syndrome). It's know that these quinolones can stay in the body for a long time, and phtotoxicity is known, though this person did not have any obvious problem with sunlight until he began taking C60 and went into the sun. Then he had a recurrance of the negative mental effects he'd had during the fluoroquinolones. They symptons came back full force more than once when exposed to the sun, even after only 30 seconds of sunlight.

He told me this three weeks ago and I haven't heard anything since, so maybe it was a coincidence.


Thanks Turnbuckle. This is a lot more illuminating. Maybe the caution should be "a possible interaction between having previously been floxed, C60 and sun exposure." A lot of people, myself included, have taken quinolones without any obvious problems, and I'd expect no particular danger there. The floxing reaction, on the other hand, means that some sort of homeostasis has been upended, and it's not clear that such a thing would get better, nor is it clear that it would work well with C60.

#19 zorba990

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 05:45 PM

This person took high doses of fluoroquinolones last year and had negative mental effects as a result (floxing syndrome). It's know that these quinolones can stay in the body for a long time, and phtotoxicity is known, though this person did not have any obvious problem with sunlight until he began taking C60 and went into the sun. Then he had a recurrance of the negative mental effects he'd had during the fluoroquinolones. They symptons came back full force more than once when exposed to the sun, even after only 30 seconds of sunlight.

He told me this three weeks ago and I haven't heard anything since, so maybe it was a coincidence.


Thanks Turnbuckle. This is a lot more illuminating. Maybe the caution should be "a possible interaction between having previously been floxed, C60 and sun exposure." A lot of people, myself included, have taken quinolones without any obvious problems, and I'd expect no particular danger there. The floxing reaction, on the other hand, means that some sort of homeostasis has been upended, and it's not clear that such a thing would get better, nor is it clear that it would work well with C60.


Excessive sun exposure is known to suppress the immune system. At least one theory about C60 was that some immune suppression might be a mechanism of action for life extension. So synergistic effect there?

I wouldn't necessarily discount the possible effects of herx reactions. I had one when taking resveratrol initially with skin peeling where I had previous sunburns and old injuries flaring up. It went away after a month or so and never returned. Herx has a beginning, a peak, and an end.

#20 niner

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 06:20 PM

This person took high doses of fluoroquinolones last year and had negative mental effects as a result (floxing syndrome). It's know that these quinolones can stay in the body for a long time, and phtotoxicity is known, though this person did not have any obvious problem with sunlight until he began taking C60 and went into the sun. Then he had a recurrance of the negative mental effects he'd had during the fluoroquinolones. They symptons came back full force more than once when exposed to the sun, even after only 30 seconds of sunlight.

He told me this three weeks ago and I haven't heard anything since, so maybe it was a coincidence.


Thanks Turnbuckle. This is a lot more illuminating. Maybe the caution should be "a possible interaction between having previously been floxed, C60 and sun exposure." A lot of people, myself included, have taken quinolones without any obvious problems, and I'd expect no particular danger there. The floxing reaction, on the other hand, means that some sort of homeostasis has been upended, and it's not clear that such a thing would get better, nor is it clear that it would work well with C60.


Excessive sun exposure is known to suppress the immune system. At least one theory about C60 was that some immune suppression might be a mechanism of action for life extension. So synergistic effect there?

I wouldn't necessarily discount the possible effects of herx reactions. I had one when taking resveratrol initially with skin peeling where I had previous sunburns and old injuries flaring up. It went away after a month or so and never returned. Herx has a beginning, a peak, and an end.


Excessive sun exposure might suppress the immune system, but that would be a lot of sun, and this was 30 seconds.

IIRC, the "theory" that the MOA for C60 LE is immune suppression was a poorly informed speculation. How would resveratrol cause a herx? Isn't a herx caused by microbial overkill? And at that, it's really only seen in a few infections, like syphilis and borreliosis, and a couple others. Resveratrol has no antimicrobial activity to speak of, nor does C60-oo, so I think this one can be ruled out.

#21 zorba990

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 06:41 PM

This person took high doses of fluoroquinolones last year and had negative mental effects as a result (floxing syndrome). It's know that these quinolones can stay in the body for a long time, and phtotoxicity is known, though this person did not have any obvious problem with sunlight until he began taking C60 and went into the sun. Then he had a recurrance of the negative mental effects he'd had during the fluoroquinolones. They symptons came back full force more than once when exposed to the sun, even after only 30 seconds of sunlight.

He told me this three weeks ago and I haven't heard anything since, so maybe it was a coincidence.


Thanks Turnbuckle. This is a lot more illuminating. Maybe the caution should be "a possible interaction between having previously been floxed, C60 and sun exposure." A lot of people, myself included, have taken quinolones without any obvious problems, and I'd expect no particular danger there. The floxing reaction, on the other hand, means that some sort of homeostasis has been upended, and it's not clear that such a thing would get better, nor is it clear that it would work well with C60.


Excessive sun exposure is known to suppress the immune system. At least one theory about C60 was that some immune suppression might be a mechanism of action for life extension. So synergistic effect there?

I wouldn't necessarily discount the possible effects of herx reactions. I had one when taking resveratrol initially with skin peeling where I had previous sunburns and old injuries flaring up. It went away after a month or so and never returned. Herx has a beginning, a peak, and an end.


Excessive sun exposure might suppress the immune system, but that would be a lot of sun, and this was 30 seconds.

IIRC, the "theory" that the MOA for C60 LE is immune suppression was a poorly informed speculation. How would resveratrol cause a herx? Isn't a herx caused by microbial overkill? And at that, it's really only seen in a few infections, like syphilis and borreliosis, and a couple others. Resveratrol has no antimicrobial activity to speak of, nor does C60-oo, so I think this one can be ruled out.


Perhaps herx is the wrong term. But in my experience, Resveratrol in high doses speeds up the death of undesirable cells. I consider this action the same as a herx which basically causes its discomfort because the body has an increased load of stuff to get rid of (in this case the dead cells) and some increased inflammation to deal with during the process.

#22 niner

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 08:35 PM

Excessive sun exposure is known to suppress the immune system. At least one theory about C60 was that some immune suppression might be a mechanism of action for life extension. So synergistic effect there?

I wouldn't necessarily discount the possible effects of herx reactions. I had one when taking resveratrol initially with skin peeling where I had previous sunburns and old injuries flaring up. It went away after a month or so and never returned. Herx has a beginning, a peak, and an end.


Excessive sun exposure might suppress the immune system, but that would be a lot of sun, and this was 30 seconds.

IIRC, the "theory" that the MOA for C60 LE is immune suppression was a poorly informed speculation. How would resveratrol cause a herx? Isn't a herx caused by microbial overkill? And at that, it's really only seen in a few infections, like syphilis and borreliosis, and a couple others. Resveratrol has no antimicrobial activity to speak of, nor does C60-oo, so I think this one can be ruled out.


Perhaps herx is the wrong term. But in my experience, Resveratrol in high doses speeds up the death of undesirable cells. I consider this action the same as a herx which basically causes its discomfort because the body has an increased load of stuff to get rid of (in this case the dead cells) and some increased inflammation to deal with during the process.


Well, resveratrol at very high doses may encourage apoptosis, so if you had a bunch of cells that were right on the edge, maybe it would tip them over. Definitely not a herx reaction, but it might explain the peeling. I don't know of this being an effect of C60, though, to bring this slight back on topic.

#23 pashley

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 11:38 PM

If c60 increases the effect of substances taken - eg coffee and pain killers, could it have the ability to also pull out drugs taken at some point that are stored in the body and briefly recirclulate them to be flushed by the body?

#24 abelard lindsay

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 12:33 AM

Herx reactions are especially severe for systemic candidiasis. The candida organism when killed by an anti-fungal ruptures and rapidly releases toxins.

#25 abelard lindsay

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 05:07 AM

SWIM who had kidney pain after taking c60 went to the doctor and got a urine and blood test. All normal except slightly elevated white blood cell count, which could be due to a lingering infection and lower than normal Urobilinogin which can be due to the alleged anti microbial efffects of c60 as it is produced by gut bacteria and metabolized by the kidneys.

#26 pashley

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 07:29 AM

http://www.keshefoun...tions/materials

carbon fullerenes in industry.

Might be beneficial for someone which a lot more scientific knowledge than me to contact Mr Keshe on his thoughts on c60. He may be able to shed some more light on their action. He is a nuclear physicist.

#27 nowayout

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 01:51 PM

Then he had a recurrance of the negative mental effects he'd had during the fluoroquinolones. They symptons came back full force more than once when exposed to the sun, even after only 30 seconds of sunlight.


Not to minimize his suffering, but 30 seconds? Seems obviously psychosomatic to me.
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#28 niner

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 04:28 PM

the alleged anti microbial efffects of c60


Pristine C60 is not antimicrobial at all. There have been reports of antimicrobial activity in water soluble fullerenes, but those are very different compounds than we're dealing with, and at any rate, the best antimicrobial activity observed with certain fullerenols, like C60(OH)44 or C60(OH)36 is very weak compared to real antimicrobials. I found a report from 2005 claiming a higher, but still weak antimicrobial activity for nanoC60, which is a partially hydroxylated aggregate, again very different to what we're dealing with, but it is clouded by the methodology for production of nC60 at the time, which involved THF and lead to toxic byproducts. All in all, I don't think that C60-oo has any significant antimicrobial activity.

#29 Edgar

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 05:52 PM

Olive oil, however, has been shown to have some anti-microbial effects:

http://phys.org/news90086396.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17536679

Not sure how far this would extend beyond the digestive tract.

#30 abelard lindsay

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 04:13 AM

So I took another drop of C60 on Tuesday. All went fine until last night (Wednesday) when I started getting some kidney pain on my left side which is unusal for me. It's gone down to a rather small amount currently but it still lingers. SWIM is doing fine and feeling good after her ordeal last week. I think I'm going to call it quits on C60 for now at least my current bottle. Might try a drop from a different bottle as a hair tonic. I got my C60 from Vaughter Wellness. I know Hebbeh has gone through 2 bottles from Vaughter already with no adverse effects while I had problems after 2 drops. Strange.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 20 July 2012 - 04:16 AM.





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