39 replies to this topic

[risemystic]

i use Lion's Mane since 20 days everyday 900 morning and 900 evening !!!
but since this time i have Sleep disorder i can't sleep all night!!!
who can help me?
thanks!

[protoject]

Maybe try taking the morning dose only. But I dunno i've been having some serious sleep problems from Noopept [which also promotes NGF/BDNF  like lion's mane does] ... so maybe that won't help. [though I have problems with sleep anyway I swear noopept makes me sleep for like 1 hr and i have a wierd nightmare and then i cant fall asleep for like 4 hours]

Edited by protoject, 27 July 2012 - 07:24 PM.

[renfr]

Could be linked to NGF increase, melatonin which also increases NGF gives weird and scary nightmares. If you got some luck you'll experience some very pleasant dreams but that was very rare for me.
Never tried hericium erinaceus but I already tried noopept and melatonin and sleeping with those is a real freakout.
I would follow the advice of protoject, taking it in the morning at once or then taking in the morning and at lunch.

[risemystic]

thanks!
today i take it at morning and at 16:00 and i can't sleep!!!
can it by from cola that i drink at 21:00 ??

thanks

[risemystic]

thanks!
today i take it at morning and at 16:00 and i can't sleep!!!
can it by from cola that i drink at 21:00 ??

thanks

[hippocampus]

yes, coca cola contains caffeine, but you should try taking only morning dose - or stop taking it for few days at all.

[risemystic]

thanks guys!
i gone take it only morning and gone write to you!
thanks alotss!!!

[dasheenster]

NGF-promoters tend to make me drowsy, and they seem to enhance sleep in rabbits, though they sometimes increase sleep latency, perhaps due to increased clarity of thought. Therefore, sleep interference from long-term lions mane might be a result of NGF-receptor downregulation, and dysfunction of the NGF system. I therefore recommend you try cycling it, taking it no longer than 10 days at a time, to see if this resolves the issue.

Edited by dasheenster, 27 July 2012 - 08:46 PM.

[renfr]

 dasheenster, on 27 July 2012 - 08:44 PM, said:

NGF-promoters tend to make me drowsy, and they seem to enhance sleep in rabbits, though they sometimes increase sleep latency, perhaps due to increased clarity of thought. Therefore, sleep interference from long-term lions mane might be a result of NGF-receptor downregulation, and dysfunction of the NGF system. I therefore recommend you try cycling it, taking it no longer than 10 days at a time, to see if this resolves the issue.

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9136800

Quote

Surprisingly, neither NGF deprivation nor augmentation altered the extent of TrkA down-regulation.

That would be very murderous if TrkA was actually downregulated by NGF as low concentrations of NGF and TrkA downregulation are found in alzheimer patients.

Edited by renfr, 28 July 2012 - 12:28 AM.

[dasheenster]

Murderous? That's extreme. Lots of things which average people indulge in are positively correlated with Alzheimers; inflammation, stress/depression, excessive viral loads (perhaps due to congenitally dysfunctional immune systems), poor circulation, etc...yet these contributing factors do not, on their own, trigger the disease in otherwise insusceptible people.

Though it is in sensory/motor neurons, and not neurons in the CNS, this study shows downregulation of a certain NGF receptor type is possible, suggesting, at least theoretically, that other subtypes might also undergo downregulation as a result of abnormally high (excessive) levels of agonism. I would suspect these levels to rebound after a few days of abstinance from NGF-releasing or -mimetic agents, and to not pose a threat to healthy people, but rather to provide a benefit, provided they are cycled appropriately. This is purely induction, and we all know about the inductive fallacy.

Edited by dasheenster, 28 July 2012 - 12:35 AM.

[risemystic]

but i had Sleep disorder from the first day i toke it!
i feel like awake!!like iam on coffee or something!
but wat make me crazy i can sleep in day time!!
thanks

[renfr]

 dasheenster, on 28 July 2012 - 12:31 AM, said:

Murderous? That's extreme. Lots of things which average people indulge in are positively correlated with Alzheimers; inflammation, stress/depression, excessive viral loads (perhaps due to congenitally dysfunctional immune systems), poor circulation, etc...yet these contributing factors do not, on their own, trigger the disease in otherwise insusceptible people.

Though it is in sensory/motor neurons, and not neurons in the CNS, this study shows downregulation of a certain NGF receptor type is possible, suggesting, at least theoretically, that other subtypes might also undergo downregulation as a result of abnormally high (excessive) levels of agonism. I would suspect these levels to rebound after a few days of abstinance from NGF-releasing or -mimetic agents, and to not pose a threat to healthy people, but rather to provide a benefit, provided they are cycled appropriately. This is purely induction, and we all know about the inductive fallacy.

What do you mean CNS? Aren't motor neurons supposed to be in the CNS? by CNS I mean Central Nervous System
theorically you're right that chronic and huge activation of NGF receptors should lead to downregulation however if it is only in sensory and motor neurons it should be relatively fine as it is unlikely to cause sleep problems. (or maybe it can via RLS or muscle restlessness?)

Melatonin which also enhances NGF, noopept too that I did use for several weeks did not cause severe symptoms to me even though as a precaution it should indeed be cycled.

Quote

but i had Sleep disorder from the first day i toke it!
i feel like awake!!like iam on coffee or something!
but wat make me crazy i can sleep in day time!!
thanks

Have you tried making a break and see if symptoms disappear?
I don't think the problem is linked with NGF, maybe with an active component of hericium, if it's supposed to make drowsy as dasheenster suggested then maybe the manufacturer added caffeine or another stimulant who knows? just a thought.
if you sleep during the day it will make it harder to sleep at night, that might be the key of the problem too.

[kevinseven11]

Our results demonstrate a novel form of regulation of neurotrophin receptor expression that occurs late in development.  The subsequent down-regulation of TrkA is likely to be importantly related to functional distinctions among nociceptive neurons in maturity.
In addition, we observed that prolonged exposure to nerve growth factor of TrkA-transfected cells did not lead to the down-regulation seen with BDNF and TrkB. Link
Dont worry and mix your lions mane with some boiling water and make a potent gravy and put it on any meat! Its soo good. Also get the full spectrum of the mushroom. Only $33 a pound!

Also Ive had no problem with sleep, At first it seemed enhanced but now I don't notice as much (my own fault). Ive even taken some breaks of a couples days at a time.

[Baten]

You should not take caffeine in the late evening, maybe the lion's mane makes the caffeine more potent.

[renfr]

 kevinseven11, on 28 July 2012 - 04:32 AM, said:

Our results demonstrate a novel form of regulation of neurotrophin receptor expression that occurs late in development.  The subsequent down-regulation of TrkA is likely to be importantly related to functional distinctions among nociceptive neurons in maturity.
In addition, we observed that prolonged exposure to nerve growth factor of TrkA-transfected cells did not lead to the down-regulation seen with BDNF and TrkB. Link
Dont worry and mix your lions mane with some boiling water and make a potent gravy and put it on any meat! Its soo good. Also get the full spectrum of the mushroom. Only $33 a pound!

Also Ive had no problem with sleep, At first it seemed enhanced but now I don't notice as much (my own fault). Ive even taken some breaks of a couples days at a time.

Would you recommend pure mushroom powder or only the extract with active components? If we supplement natural powder how much is the normal dose?

[kevinseven11]

5g is effective as proven by one study, but I take 3g everyday of full spectrum natural lions mane powder and I feel it.

[risemystic]

i realy don't understand this today i didn't take only thing !!!!
and stell can't sleep! i feel depressied!!!
what to do help

[risemystic]

i realy don't understand this today i didn't take only thing !!!!
and stell can't sleep! i feel depressied!!!
what to do help

[risemystic]

i realy don't understand this today i didn't take only thing !!!!
and stell can't sleep! i feel depressied!!!
what to do help

[renfr]

Either it has nothing to do with Hericium Erinaceus either you should wait at least 2 weeks, if there was receptor downregulation as dasheenster suggest then it's needed to wait a bit until receptors go back to their original state.
Btw are you taking any other supplement? It might be related as well...
Don't sleep during the day, supplement magnesium to decrease sleep onset if needed you can add taurine, l-theanine or try valerian root (short term use). Also you may supplement melatonin to restore your circardian rhythm that seems to be screwed up or try the sleep retraining therapy :
- set an hour to sleep and another to wake up
- at sleep, turn off all the lights, if you don't manage to sleep wake up and sit down calmly without turning on any lights (very important)
- go back to the bed and try to sleep
- when the wake up hour is reached even if you are very tired or almost didn't sleep, wake up whatever happens and turn on all the lights
- stay awake during all the day even if too tired and repeat that, in 5 days or a week your circardian rhythm will be restored naturally. the very important part in there is to not turn on any light even your smartphone light

[joelski28]

Maybe if you stopped exclamation points in every sentence you'd sleep better. Also too much sugar at night and obviously caffiene. Sitting on your ass too much can also cause sleep issues. Theres so many  factors you just have to try different things and do some research

[renfr]

There's something I don't understand.
You wrote this thread some days ago : http://www.longecity...y-life-forever/
saying Hericium changed your life and even corrected your sleep problems so WTF?
in that same very thread you tell us you had sleep disorders before taking hericium so really I don't get why you put all those sleep problems on that mushroom.
You also take piracetam, piracetam is a mild stimulant it might also be the root of your sleeplessness, piracetam can also be anxiogenic (depends of the people).
Stop piracetam, take magnesium to cancel out stress and you will likely go to sleep again and your depression will surely stop.

Edited by renfr, 29 July 2012 - 12:08 AM.

[kevinseven11]

Stop everything besides lions mane. I took a large dose today and became tired. If you mess up your sleep, it takes a couple days to fix! Wait a few days.

[risemystic]

renfr thanks alots!! i gone try it! i realy watch tv bevor sleep and let it on all night!
yes lions chang my stomach i can eat everything in the first week i take it i very very very good sleep perfect and my stomach is tell know very good the only problem i have know is sleep disorder the last time i take piracetam was 2 month ago and i don't take any thing only lions mane
joelski28  it take lions mane not for mind but for my stomach because i try everything that may help for my stomach and nothing can help
.kevinseven11 it don't take any thing

last night i sleep maby at 23:30 but my sleep was perfect in the time that it take lions i wake up on 4 morning but today was at 10:00

i gone take today lions only at moning 900mg and see the result !becuase its the only thins that help my stomach
did any body know such herb for stomach ?

thanks

[kevinseven11]

I take probiotics see if that helps.

[1thoughtMaze1]

 kevinseven11, on 28 July 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

5g is effective as proven by one study, but I take 3g everyday of full spectrum natural lions mane powder and I feel it.

Where you get that please.

[dasheenster]

In reference to Kevin's study,

Quote

Conversely, chimeric receptors composed of the extracellular domain of TrkA and the intracellular domain of TrkB (Trk A/B, Fig. 4) bound NGF and were down-regulated following NGF treatment.

It appears that exposure to NGF does down-regulate at least one member of the RTK superfamily.

Now I will distinguish between sedation/arousal, and fatigue/energy. It is possible to be aroused, yet fatigued, or, conversely, to be sedated, yet energetic. In this sense, it is a mistake to confuse "drowsiness" (tiredness) (from my earlier post, OK not the best word choice) with "sleepiness" (meaning sedated). This blog explains the difference a little better than me.

The questions then arise, is lion's mane primarily sedentary or arousing, and is it primarily tiring or inspiring? I have not noticed it making me tired/fatigued. Bacopa, which boosts T4, and is implicated in serotonergic function, makes me tired but aroused. Probably it's causing me to think more, therefore increasing sleep latency. Boosting T4 might produce symptoms similar to hyperthyroidism. Quoting this site, "Patients with hyperthyroidism usually experience fatigue at the end of the day, but have trouble sleeping [properly]". I think healthy people will adjust to reasonable doses of bacopa and will not experience insomnia and fatigue, and a desire to think before falling asleep. Light exercise has similar effects for me, though not completely consistently, of causing insomnia with paradoxical fatigue. However, to this, I do not develop a tolerance, unlike bacopa. Strenuous exercise can sometimes give me physical energy, though it makes me very sleepy (see this http://www.nytimes.c...ion/13Best.html). Opposing forces...

Now it's not clear whether nor not the responses are the body liking the endorphins (strenuous exercise), or the body trying to compensate for T4 (bacopa)/blood flow (light exercise). When the body sleeps longer, or upregulates a certain factor, it is not always clear whether it does so because that factor is enhancing function, or because the factor is causing damage which the body must compensate for. In the case of strenuous exercise, people probably sleep more to compensate for damage, possibly cortisol-induced damage. Whereas something like phosphatidylserine, which is anecdotally reported to enhance sleep in some, tends to shorten sleep and make it easier to get out of bed in the morning, at least for me. This, I think, is not because it worsens sleep quality and makes sleeping difficult, but because it improves it sleep quality, and therefore reduces the amount we need to feel rested.

Back to lion's mane. I think NGF causes arousal and sedation, though I'm not sure yet which effect dominates. I retract my statement that it makes me tired/fatigued, since I haven't noticed any significant drop in energy levels from it. It could be subtle, but I can't say for sure. It might even give me energy, but the effect is almost certainly minimal. As with strenuous exercise, I'm not sure if NGF-promoters cause arousal, which our bodies cope with by sleeping longer with a lower quality sleep, or if they cause sedation, which our bodies respond to be indulging in high-quality, lengthy sleeping sessions. There's probably a little of both going on. If I had to guess based on my experience, lion's mane is more sedative than arousing. I would guess that prolonged use of it thus leads to downregulation of whichever receptors it mediates "enhanced sleep" through, and therefore to insomnia. It's all guess-work though, and we'd need more studies or more anecdotes to see what is really going on.

I agree that the OP needs to eliminate other variables (especially caffeine ;P) before he can attribute his insomnia to lion's mane.

Edited by dasheenster, 30 July 2012 - 11:56 AM.

[kevinseven11]

Lions Mane is an Anti-diabetic. This is very important.

[renfr]

 1thoughtMaze1, on 30 July 2012 - 03:57 AM, said:

 kevinseven11, on 28 July 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

5g is effective as proven by one study, but I take 3g everyday of full spectrum natural lions mane powder and I feel it.

Where you get that please.

You can get Lion's mane powder on eBay or you can buy it in a mushroom shop or maybe a chinese herbalist.
There's also a brand called Mushroom Wisdom and sells hericium erinaceus in capsules, however it is not like powder, it's an extract and therefore is much more potent.
They also include maitake mushroom and reishi mushroom which are known for their immunoprotective benefits.

 dasheenster, on 30 July 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

In reference to Kevin's study,

Quote

Conversely, chimeric receptors composed of the extracellular domain of TrkA and the intracellular domain of TrkB (Trk A/B, Fig. 4) bound NGF and were down-regulated following NGF treatment.

It appears that exposure to NGF does down-regulate at least one member of the RTK superfamily.

Now I will distinguish between sedation/arousal, and fatigue/energy. It is possible to be aroused, yet fatigued, or, conversely, to be sedated, yet energetic. In this sense, it is a mistake to confuse "drowsiness" (tiredness) (from my earlier post, OK not the best word choice) with "sleepiness" (meaning sedated). This blog explains the difference a little better than me.

The questions then arise, is lion's mane primarily sedentary or arousing, and is it primarily tiring or inspiring? I have not noticed it making me tired/fatigued. Bacopa, which boosts T4, and is implicated in serotonergic function, makes me tired but aroused. Probably it's causing me to think more, therefore increasing sleep latency. Boosting T4 might produce symptoms similar to hyperthyroidism. Quoting this site, "Patients with hyperthyroidism usually experience fatigue at the end of the day, but have trouble sleeping [properly]". I think healthy people will adjust to reasonable doses of bacopa and will not experience insomnia and fatigue, and a desire to think before falling asleep. Light exercise has similar effects for me, though not completely consistently, of causing insomnia with paradoxical fatigue. However, to this, I do not develop a tolerance, unlike bacopa. Strenuous exercise can sometimes give me physical energy, though it makes me very sleepy (see this http://www.nytimes.c...ion/13Best.html). Opposing forces...

Now it's not clear whether nor not the responses are the body liking the endorphins (strenuous exercise), or the body trying to compensate for T4 (bacopa)/blood flow (light exercise). When the body sleeps longer, or upregulates a certain factor, it is not always clear whether it does so because that factor is enhancing function, or because the factor is causing damage which the body must compensate for. In the case of strenuous exercise, people probably sleep more to compensate for damage, possibly cortisol-induced damage. Whereas something like phosphatidylserine, which is anecdotally reported to enhance sleep in some, tends to shorten sleep and make it easier to get out of bed in the morning, at least for me. This, I think, is not because it worsens sleep quality and makes sleeping difficult, but because it improves it sleep quality, and therefore reduces the amount we need to feel rested.

Back to lion's mane. I think NGF causes arousal and sedation, though I'm not sure yet which effect dominates. I retract my statement that it makes me tired/fatigued, since I haven't noticed any significant drop in energy levels from it. It could be subtle, but I can't say for sure. It might even give me energy, but the effect is almost certainly minimal. As with strenuous exercise, I'm not sure if NGF-promoters cause arousal, which our bodies cope with by sleeping longer with a lower quality sleep, or if they cause sedation, which our bodies respond to be indulging in high-quality, lengthy sleeping sessions. There's probably a little of both going on. If I had to guess based on my experience, lion's mane is more sedative than arousing. I would guess that prolonged use of it thus leads to downregulation of whichever receptors it mediates "enhanced sleep" through, and therefore to insomnia. It's all guess-work though, and we'd need more studies or more anecdotes to see what is really going on.

I agree that the OP needs to eliminate other variables (especially caffeine ;P) before he can attribute his insomnia to lion's mane.

Bacopa boosts T4? What does that mean then when I get no sedation from it? A long time ago when I first tried it, it gave me massive drowsiness. I took several racetams and they cancelled out the effect however when I didn't take any racetam I would get drowsy again.
I stopped supplementing bacopa for some months and now just restarted, but here no sedation or drowsiness can be seen at sight. And no I am not even taking any racetam which is really weird.

[1thoughtMaze1]

Thanks renfr