30 replies to this topic

[Logic]

I dont know that messing with Melatonin is wise, but heres an interesting study that says it increases HGH if combined with high intensity exercise:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....13/?tool=pubmed

Its also good for protecting skin against UV and gets into the system via the topical route, so perhaps adding some to skin cream is worth looking into?

https://www.google.c...iw=1245&bih=610

Edited by Logic, 31 October 2012 - 06:21 PM.

[Mind]

A couple of comments:

*Based on sleep data, 0.5mg melatonin, would be considered an approximately appropriate amount of melatonin to ingest at any one time (I know, it is not a scientifically useful comparison, but it is at least a jumping off point for discussion). In this study, in males, 0.5 mg showed a larger response in post exercise GH production (If I am reading the graphs correctly).

*Again, if I am reading this correctly, melatonin raised GH post exercise WITHOUT also raising IGF-1, which is a very positive result, since IGF-1 is so closely tied to aging in many species.

*Look for world anti-doping agencies to quickly ban melatonin - can't have any "enhanced athletes" you know. (a little hyperbole to keep things light)

[Kevnzworld]

Interesting. I take 3 mg of time release melatonin nightly. I can't see taking it during the day before exercising ( as in the study ) ! 5 mg of melatonin seems to increase GH levels independent of exercise though, if I read this correctly.
Quote:
"In conclusion, for males 5.0 mg melatonin appears to increase serum GH while concomitantly lowering SST levels; however, when combined with resistance exercise both 0.5 mg and 5.0 mg melatonin appears to positively impact GH levels in a manner not entirely dependent on decreases in SST. "

I take melatonin for neuroprotection, sleep, and for it's other anti aging properties. More about that here.

http://www.antiaging...he-pineal-gland

Edited by Kevnzworld, 31 October 2012 - 07:42 PM.

[dear mrclock]

there is something suspicious about melatonin. it has wide range of very positive effects and its like "perfect" in many ways, yet it is so dirt cheap and widely available to the general population that makes it suspicious. if it really is that good for you in as many things as you can think of, the low price, high availability and huge part of the population taking it seems contradictory to any other beneficial substance out there that costs a lot of money and its hard to acquire.

[hamishm00]

Not really as suspicious as you.

But guys, you don't want to take Melatonin during the day as it could potentially cause eye damage. Will try and dig up the study.

[Kevnzworld]

Not really as suspicious as you.

But guys, you don't want to take Melatonin during the day as it could potentially cause eye damage. Will try and dig up the study.

And screw up your circadian rhythm.

[hamishm00]

Possibly, but can you can show a clear study here to back this up? I suspect the process is more complicated than just Melatonin = circadian rhythm reset / influence. The body does produce Melatonin during the day in certain amounts. It's possible that light perception by the eyes may play a bigger role in regulating circadian rhythm than Melatonin by itself, to the point where if you took melatonin during the day it may have very little influence on circadian rhythms if you took it early for example, like before breakfast. Of course we are still beginning to understand how there may be a synergy between light perception (or lack thereof) and melatonin as well as the other chemicals that a released during the day, or during the night, as the case may be.

Edited by hamishm00, 01 November 2012 - 05:52 PM.

[hamishm00]

Exp Eye Res. 2008 Feb;86(2):241-50.
Influence of dietary melatonin on photoreceptor survival in the rat retina: an ocular toxicity study.
Wiechmann AF, Chignell CF, Roberts JE.
Department of Cell Biology, University of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center, Oklahoma City, OK 73190, USA. allan-wiechmann@ouhsc.edu

Previous studies have shown that melatonin treatment increases the susceptibility of retinal photoreceptors to light-induced cell death. The purpose of this study was to evaluate under various conditions the potential toxicity of dietary melatonin on retinal photoreceptors. Male and female Fischer 344 (non-pigmented) and Long-Evans (pigmented) rats were treated with daily single doses of melatonin by gavage for a period of 14 days early in the light period or early in the dark period. In another group, rats were treated 3 times per week with melatonin early in the light period, and then exposed to high intensity illumination (1000-1500 lx; HII) for 2h, and then returned to the normal cyclic lighting regime. At the end of the treatment periods, morphometric measurements of outer nuclear layer thickness (ONL; the layer containing the photoreceptor cell nuclei) were made at specific loci throughout the retinas. In male and female non-pigmented Fischer rats, melatonin administration increased the degree of photoreceptor cell death when administered during the nighttime and during the day when followed by exposure to HII. There were some modest effects of melatonin on photoreceptor cell death when administered to Fischer rats during the day or night without exposure to HII. Melatonin treatment caused increases in the degree of photoreceptor cell death when administered in the night to male pigmented Long-Evans rats, but melatonin administration during the day, either with or without exposure to HII, had little if any effect on photoreceptor cell survival. In pigmented female Long-Evans rats, melatonin administration did not appear to have significant effects on photoreceptor cell death in any treatment group. The results of this study confirm and extend previous reports that melatonin increases the susceptibility of photoreceptors to light-induced cell death in non-pigmented rats. It further suggests that during the dark period, melatonin administration alone (i.e., no HII exposure) to pigmented male rats may have a toxic effect on retinal cells. These results suggest that dietary melatonin, in combination with a brief exposure to high intensity illumination, induces cellular disruption in a small number of photoreceptors. Chronic exposure to natural or artificial light and simultaneous intake of melatonin may potentially contribute to a significant loss of photoreceptor cells in the aging retina.

[Kevnzworld]

Possibly, but can you can show a clear study here to back this up? The body does produce Melatonin during the day in small amounts. Light perception by the eyes may play a bigger role in regulating circadian rythmn that Melatonin.

The light dark cycle influences the release of melatonin which along with other hormones like cortisol control circadian rhythm. My point was that supplementing with melatonin during the day could interfere with that rhythm.

"the presence of these receptors indicates that through an action on the circadian clock, exogenous melatonin can affect all levels of the circadian network and its capacity to entrain circadian rhythms to 24 h has been demonstrated"
http://www.mendeley....rcadian-system/

" These data are consistent with the hypothesis that melatonin plays a role in the organisation of circadian rhythms in humans and suggest that appropriately timed melatonin administration may provide a means of altering the timing of circadian cycles."
http://www.mendeley....adian-rhythm-1/

From Wikipedia
"Melatonin is absent from the system or undetectably low during daytime. Its onset in dim light, dim-light melatonin onset (DLMO), at about 21:00 (9 p.m.) can be measured in the blood or the saliva. Its major metabolite can also be measured in morning urine. Both DLMO and the
midpoint (in time) of the presence of the hormone in the blood or saliva have been used as circadian markers"

http://www.nejm.org/...200010123431510
http://onlinelibrary...enticated=false

Edited by Kevnzworld, 01 November 2012 - 06:39 PM.

[Gerald W. Gaston]

So I'll start exercising with my sleep mask still on in the am... wonder how that will work out. Seriously though, these studies were during daylight hours, but likely the high dose (5mg) that triggered GH release with no exercise would seem beneficial at night if it did not mess up your sleep cycle. I know some folks that say taking more than around 300-500mcg nightly negatively impacts their sleep quality. I think I will try the higher dose at night. While I cannot test the GH affect, I will watch with my Zeo to see if sleep quality is affected.

[Gerald W. Gaston]

Interesting read. I think I wil try light therapy as well for my sleep issues. Forcing myself away from work/PC is the hardest part.

http://www.talkabout...n-correctly.htm

[nowayout]

A couple of comments:

*Based on sleep data, 0.5mg melatonin, would be considered an approximately appropriate amount of melatonin to ingest at any one time (I know, it is not a scientifically useful comparison, but it is at least a jumping off point for discussion). In this study, in males, 0.5 mg showed a larger response in post exercise GH production (If I am reading the graphs correctly).

*Again, if I am reading this correctly, melatonin raised GH post exercise WITHOUT also raising IGF-1, which is a very positive result, since IGF-1 is so closely tied to aging in many species.

*Look for world anti-doping agencies to quickly ban melatonin - can't have any "enhanced athletes" you know. (a little hyperbole to keep things light)

I am not sure that is a realistic amount based on sleep data. I remember reading studies to the effect that a physiologically realistic dose for sleep is more like 0.1 mg to 0.3 mg, and that higher doses could be counterproductive or even harmful, at least as far as sleep was concerned. In fact, the 3mg doses commonly sold otc for sleep is at least 10 times too high. Even Dr Oz had a huge exposé about this recently.

[Mind]

A couple of comments:

*Based on sleep data, 0.5mg melatonin, would be considered an approximately appropriate amount of melatonin to ingest at any one time (I know, it is not a scientifically useful comparison, but it is at least a jumping off point for discussion). In this study, in males, 0.5 mg showed a larger response in post exercise GH production (If I am reading the graphs correctly).

*Again, if I am reading this correctly, melatonin raised GH post exercise WITHOUT also raising IGF-1, which is a very positive result, since IGF-1 is so closely tied to aging in many species.

*Look for world anti-doping agencies to quickly ban melatonin - can't have any "enhanced athletes" you know. (a little hyperbole to keep things light)

I am not sure that is a realistic amount based on sleep data. I remember reading studies to the effect that a physiologically realistic dose for sleep is more like 0.1 mg to 0.3 mg, and that higher doses could be counterproductive or even harmful, at least as far as sleep was concerned. In fact, the 3mg doses commonly sold otc for sleep is at least 10 times too high. Even Dr Oz had a huge exposé about this recently.

In my book, 0.5mg and 0.3mg are fairly close, although it is a BIG percentage difference.

[Kevnzworld]

I am not sure that is a realistic amount based on sleep data. I remember reading studies to the effect that a physiologically realistic dose for sleep is more like 0.1 mg to 0.3 mg, and that higher doses could be counterproductive or even harmful, at least as far as sleep was concerned. In fact, the 3mg doses commonly sold otc for sleep is at least 10 times too high. Even Dr Oz had a huge exposé about this recently.

I think that it's prudent to take the lowest dose that works. For me it's 3 mg, but I take melatonin for it's anti aging effects more so than as a sleep aid. Endogenous production of melatonin declines with age.
"Human melatonin production decreases as a person ages.[30" ( Wikipedia )
Also, the bioavailabilty of oral dosing has to be considered.
" Both the 2 and the 4 mg oral dosages showed an absolute bioavailability of approximately 15%."
http://jcp.sagepub.c.../40/7/781.short
2-3 mg orally dosed would equate to the biological equivalent of healthy human production .3 mg, if this is correct.
Lastly, I read in one of the many studies I looked at today that melatonin is cleared relatively quickly, 1 hour. I take a 6 hour time release capsule.

[dear mrclock]

Not really as suspicious as you.

But guys, you don't want to take Melatonin during the day as it could potentially cause eye damage. Will try and dig up the study.

im not suspicious im quite open about what i think on here.

how long is melatonin half life ? so if you take it at night, 8 hours is enough to go out in the light ? usually i take it in the mornings and i wake up late afternoons lol i wonder if thats bad idea.
it gives me mania and depression tho. just not getting how can so many people take it and not reporting serious side effects beyond drowsiness or sleepiness during daytime.

Edited by dear mrclock, 02 November 2012 - 12:46 AM.

[Gerald W. Gaston]

"Elimination half-life is approximately 45 minutes with a total body clearance of 10 hours for a 3 mg dose" - http://www.mskcc.org.../herb/melatonin

Edited by gwgaston, 02 November 2012 - 02:10 AM.

[dear mrclock]

wow total body clearance 10 hours. how come i still feel dizzy and shitty after i slept for 8 at least and then 8 more afterwards ? annoying

[nowayout]

Also, the bioavailabilty of oral dosing has to be considered.
" Both the 2 and the 4 mg oral dosages showed an absolute bioavailability of approximately 15%."
http://jcp.sagepub.c.../40/7/781.short
2-3 mg orally dosed would equate to the biological equivalent of healthy human production .3 mg, if this is correct.

No, the studies that I read determined that 0.1 mg to 0.3 mg is the physiologically optimal range for oral dosing. You can google or pubmed them easily.

Edited by viveutvivas, 02 November 2012 - 01:00 PM.

[Kevnzworld]

Also, the bioavailabilty of oral dosing has to be considered.
" Both the 2 and the 4 mg oral dosages showed an absolute bioavailability of approximately 15%."
http://jcp.sagepub.c.../40/7/781.short
2-3 mg orally dosed would equate to the biological equivalent of healthy human production .3 mg, if this is correct.

No, the studies that I read determined that 0.1 mg to 0.3 mg is the physiologically optimal range for oral dosing. You can google or pubmed them easily.

I found no consensus for optimal melatonin dosing in the literature. It depends of course why you are taking it. Dosing for insomnia would be different than for anti aging and or adjunct cancer therapy. The alternative medical websites like Life Extension advocate higher dosing, so I looked at traditional medical websites for guidelines.
It has to be remembered that melatonin has poor bioavailability (15% ), is cleared quickly.

Webmd , .3- 5 mg. http://www.webmd.com...tName=MELATONIN

Medscape reference: .3-5 mg
http://reference.med...elatonin-344545

I think this recommendation melatonin dosing for insomnia is good :

What is the appropriate dose range for melatonin pills or capsules?

Major questions in the research community are whether and how much melatonin is effective for the various applications described below. Recent studies mainly have used doses from 1/2 to 5 mg. Debate still centers around the essential action of the hormone - shifting the biological clock, promoting sleep, or both. Some studies have found clock-shifting results at the very lowest doses (1/2 mg.). Studies emphasizing sleep-promoting action have tended to use somewhat higher doses (2 to 5 mg.), although it is not certain that these are necessary to achieve the desired effect. Although these questions are not yet resolved, a basic clinical principle is to use the lowest dose effective for the individual and to work upward, if necessary, with a physician's guidance.

[zorba990]

Also, the bioavailabilty of oral dosing has to be considered.
" Both the 2 and the 4 mg oral dosages showed an absolute bioavailability of approximately 15%."
http://jcp.sagepub.c.../40/7/781.short
2-3 mg orally dosed would equate to the biological equivalent of healthy human production .3 mg, if this is correct.

No, the studies that I read determined that 0.1 mg to 0.3 mg is the physiologically optimal range for oral dosing. You can google or pubmed them easily.

When I took it I used between 3mg and 9mg controlled release per day in the evening before bed. I never noticed anything at doses 1mg and below. BTW, a potential dietary source in Tart Cherries:

Tart Cherry and melatonin: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22038497

[dear mrclock]

how can a neurohormone be in a fruit ? makes no sense. this study is questionable....

[zorba990]

how can a neurohormone be in a fruit ? makes no sense. this study is questionable....

Why does it have to make sense? Nature provides. It's just a molecule, not magic.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11600041
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3133468/
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3133468/

[dear mrclock]

its a neurohormone. are you saying lots of other steroids and hormones are widely available in nature ? i know some plants can be good precursors to producting synthetic steroids and hormones, but not actually having them as part of their structure.

[zorba990]

its a neurohormone. are you saying lots of other steroids and hormones are widely available in nature ? i know some plants can be good precursors to producting synthetic steroids and hormones, but not actually having them as part of their structure.

In the case of neurotransmitters along the tryptophan pathway, they are certainly out there:

Plants containing serotonin: http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3218476/
Biosynthetic pathway for serotonin on plants: Figure 1
DMT in plants: http://www.neurosoup...taining_dmt.htm

As well as GABA:

GABA in plants: http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2634229/


By the way, GABA will increase post exercise GH by 400% (more than melatonin)
http://www.ergo-log.com/gabagh.html

And Dopamine:
Dopamine (as well as L-Dopa it's precursor) in plants: http://www.springerl...628175vl42553n/

List of plants containing melatonin:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11570431

[dear mrclock]

i know of serotonin in plants. it is not neuro active. it affects the gut so, i guess in some way, plants use it to make sure their seeds or whatever is eaten from them is passed quickly through the animal into the soil.

List of plants containing melatonin:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11570431 i didnt see any list of plants and the amount of melatonin listed....

never heard of GABA in plants. thats new to me. wonder how it functions in humans and if its neuro active.

Edited by dear mrclock, 04 November 2012 - 01:56 AM.

[zorba990]

i know of serotonin in plants. it is not neuro active. it affects the gut so, i guess in some way, plants use it to make sure their seeds or whatever is eaten from them is passed quickly through the animal into the soil.

List of plants containing melatonin:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11570431 i didnt see any list of plants and the amount of melatonin listed....

never heard of GABA in plants. thats new to me. wonder how it functions in humans and if its neuro active.

Try this one : http://en.wikipedia....elatonin#Plants

Not sure if GABA gets past the BBB, there is some debate on that. Ayahuasca users can certainly tell of DMT getting through, though. And we know melatonin is active orally.

[dear mrclock]

the food with the most melatonin; Melatonin has been reported in foodstuffs including cherries to about 0.17-13.46 ng/g

lol 0.17-13.46 ng/g do you realize how miniscule this is ? its almost unbelievable they even detected this.

definately the consumption of such high doses of melatonin in pill form is not normal and unnatural. there is no way in the world you wil get melatonin naturally from foods. impossible !

[zorba990]

the food with the most melatonin; Melatonin has been reported in foodstuffs including cherries to about 0.17-13.46 ng/g

lol 0.17-13.46 ng/g do you realize how miniscule this is ? its almost unbelievable they even detected this.

definately the consumption of such high doses of melatonin in pill form is not normal and unnatural. there is no way in the world you wil get melatonin naturally from foods. impossible !

Seems to be enough, from foods, to affect sleep quality:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22038497


RESULTS:

Total melatonin content was significantly elevated (P < 0.05) in the cherry juice group, whilst no differences were shown between baseline and placebo trials. There were significant increases in time in bed, total sleep time and sleep efficiency total (P < 0.05) with cherry juice supplementation. Although there was no difference in timing of the melatonin circardian rhythm, there was a trend to a higher mesor and amplitude.

CONCLUSIONS:

These data suggest that consumption of a tart cherry juice concentrate provides an increase in exogenous melatonin that is beneficial in improving sleep duration and quality in healthy men and women and might be of benefit in managing disturbed sleep.

[renfr]

there is something suspicious about melatonin. it has wide range of very positive effects and its like "perfect" in many ways, yet it is so dirt cheap and widely available to the general population that makes it suspicious. if it really is that good for you in as many things as you can think of, the low price, high availability and huge part of the population taking it seems contradictory to any other beneficial substance out there that costs a lot of money and its hard to acquire.

oh wait yeah it's a gov plan to take control of your mind...
there's no relationship between price and benefits, it's just supply and demand mate...
this is not suspicious, you are the one who's suspicious there...

[dear mrclock]

im the one who is suspicious ? renfr i dunno you but i think you should look up into all VITAL drugs/supplements anything thats proven to be positive in many ways, seems to be pricey. melatonin must be the cheapest "fix all" promotion supplements out there that i have witnessed thus far. and no, i dont claim weirdo shit like government controls you with it, but what i imply is, the melatonin sold in pill form must be easily, cheap made somewhere in china or other 3rd world and it has no safety control. who knows whats in final product ? who knows whats the quality ?? it works yes, but who knows the methods used to produce this stuff. i know for sure when something is expensive, its made more carefuly, its monitored and its safer. produce just a bunch of shit from cheaper precursors and toxic materials and thats what you get. distribute it world wide, EASY. again, dont assume i suggest any conspiracies, just human error, greedyness, fast and easy production and profit.

Edited by dear mrclock, 05 November 2012 - 06:26 AM.