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Regrowing cartilage with collagen supplements?


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#271 hav

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 03:34 PM

I am bit confused by why would we think that eating collagen of any type would results in improved ECM in any part of the body? Ingested Collagen will under go hydrolysis when ingested. 

http://jn.nutrition....29/10/1891.long

 

The above observed orally administered tagged collagen accumulating in new joint cartilage after 6 months in rats.

 

There have also been human studies done by college sports departments showing both hydrolyzed and ordinary Knox-brand gelatin reduce knee inflammation and pain in athletes using a dose of 10 grams a day.  I noticed that effect myself after less than a week.   The advantage of hydrolyzed collagen is that it dissolves readily in cold water.

 

Howard


Edited by hav, 03 September 2014 - 03:37 PM.

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#272 ironfistx

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 12:55 AM

I have been trying a few different collagen products.

I have been using Osteo BiFlex Nutrajoint with gelatin but withouti glucosamine and chondroitin. This product results in a bit of a decrease in the discomfort I Have in my elbopw. In addition to the gelatin that is 10g per serving, there is a low dose of some vitamins and other products, specifically copper. I think the improved sensation in my elbow may be due to this, as taking copper supplements alone seems to make my elbow feel a lot better. When I stopped using this product, the discomfort returned.

I have been suing NeoCell Type I and III collagen. This is mostly for uses other than joints, but I figured it owuld be worth a try. A serving is 6.6mgrams but I Have recently been using about 1 and a half scoops to get closer to 10g. It wasn't why I was taking it, but my skin has been feeling a lot smoother, and I"m a guy so you would think I wouodln't really pay attention to that but I noticed it the other day and I thought it was good.

I additionally got some Doctor's Best Type I and III collagen which is probably similar to the NeoCell stuff but was a bit cheaper.

I have been using Knox gelatin, like the kind you buy in the store.

THe NutraJoint mixes very well. I emailed the company and they said it is Type I collagen.

The NeoCell stuff mixes with a bit more difficult, you just havge to mix it a bit more. And if there are a few bits that didn't mix you can just drink them, they don't make it a bad experience.

The Knox Gelatin doesn't mix well at all, but you wouldn't expect it to because it's for use in making snacks, not supplements.

NeoCell said their gelatin is 50/50 Type I nand III.

I emailed Gelita and asked them about Fortigel and they said it is Type I.

Basically every poweder supplement I have seen is Type I or III. I have not seen any Type II powders.

I emailed Great Lakes and they said that all collagens become Type I when you drink them.

The most important part is this, since cartilage has no blood supply, how is the collagen product, whatever type, getting to the cartilage?

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#273 ironfistx

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 10:44 PM

An email was sent to gelita asking how their product reaches the cartilage since cartilage has no blood supply.

This is the reply I have:

Our specific collagen peptides reach the chondrocyte cells in the cartilage in the same way as all other nutrients - via diffusion.
Kind regards,


I'm not entirely sure what that means but I have heard that foods you eat don't actually get there although tht may not be true.

#274 RunnerV

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 02:47 AM

Hi guys, a newbie here, it's been a real interesting and extremely helpful read. I have decided to try add collagen into part of my diet now thanks to this thread. :)

 

I do have couple of question though, would really appreciate if someone could help me out. :)

 

1. Why hasn't the molecular weight of collagen being discussed here? My understanding is that the smaller the collagens are, the better absorption rate, hence a better quality collagen. Apparently the weight ranges from 500 daltons to 5000+ daltons, I wonder what's the minimum/recommended daltons to choose.

 

2. NeoCell's website says it's mixing type I&III with type 2 affects the absorption rate for the collagens, I see that many of ppl here have been mixing the collagen, I'd be very interested to know if it actually makes any difference?

 

 

 



#275 Luminosity

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Posted 27 January 2015 - 05:32 AM

Don't mix them.

 

 Type II has smaller molecules and is more absorbable.  


Edited by Luminosity, 27 January 2015 - 05:33 AM.

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#276 bgs4669

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Posted 27 January 2015 - 11:55 AM

Just reading some old posts, and alot of people say to take the collagen on an empty stomach?

 

Whereas for me, the collagen I take the producer says to take toward the end of your meal, or slightly after, and to make sure you have enough fresh fruit and veg with vitamin C...the reason for taking the collagen toward the end of the meal, is collagen assimilates and works best in an ideal environment - containing fats (good fats), magnesium, vitamin C and water / fluids...so this makes sense to me whereas if you pop it on an empty stomach - no vitmain C or other minerals for it to work its best...


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#277 bgs4669

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Posted 27 January 2015 - 12:23 PM

Lyophilized collagen is around 350 daltons - this is natural collagen with the full triple helix still in tact.

It is from fish skins.

 

It is probably the most absorbable collagen on the market and similar without risk of disease.

 

Also important to note that glucosamine and bladderwrack when taken with a collagen supplement help to eliminate inflammatory causing lectins by binding to them and you automatically flush them out of the system, this is why alot of people will get pain relief - or can still enjoy their toxic foods causing the pain. eg pizza and other gluten / wheat based foods.


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#278 Luminosity

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 04:56 AM

To the person who needs references, I have studied on collagen and know around the most about it of anyone here.  I have risen out of a wheelchair because of what I know.  I've spent a lot of money on these types of supplements.  I've tried many in many different ways.  

 

Swanson's type II collagen made from sternal chicken cartilage has natural fats and other co-factors, except for vitamin C.   It is the whole dehydrated cartilage.  It has natural glucosamine and chondroitin, I think.  I recommend Swanson's ascorbyl palmitate (vitamin C) capsules to take with it.   I recommend to take both of these things removed from their capsules and mixed in some water, so these would more of less replicate the conditions the poster above me mentioned.  I feel that collagen in a pill form is not as well absorbed as a liquid.  Luckily, capsules come apart.  For the collagens I'm familiar with, some co-factors are helpful, liquid form is helpful, but taking it with a meal has caused indigestion. 

 

I haven't taken fish collagen, just type II from chicken, most brands, and types I and III from pigs/cows.  The particular whole cartilage type II, which I recommend, does absorb best on an empty stomach, from experience.   For me, types I and III also absorb best on an empty stomach, from experience, but it made my skin break out because I could not break it down and digest it well enough.  Others have good results from types I and III collagen.  

 

Below is a link to my blog post on supplements I've used to repair connective tissue.   These tips would help bone and teeth too.  

 

http://www.longecity...grow-cartilage/

 

 


Edited by Luminosity, 28 January 2015 - 05:03 AM.

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#279 nickdino

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 01:23 PM

Goddamned, every time i want to learn something here i get completely messed up. Why is there not a list of things proven to work? All sorts of shit combined in these threats, fallacies, biases, saletactics, yukk
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#280 Logic

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 09:13 PM

Goddamned, every time i want to learn something here i get completely messed up. Why is there not a list of things proven to work? All sorts of shit combined in these threats, fallacies, biases, saletactics, yukk

 

:)
 
Just take 10grams of store bought Gelatine dissolved in warm water before bed.
All this type 1,2,3 isn't worth researching and is marketing hype IMHO based on personal experience.

http://www.ergo-log.com/collagen.html
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#281 MachineGhostX

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 03:01 PM

To the person who needs references, I have studied on collagen and know around the most about it of anyone here.  I have risen out of a wheelchair because of what I know.  I've spent a lot of money on these types of supplements.  I've tried many in many different ways.  

 

Swanson's type II collagen made from sternal chicken cartilage has natural fats and other co-factors, except for vitamin C.   It is the whole dehydrated cartilage.  It has natural glucosamine and chondroitin, I think.  I recommend Swanson's ascorbyl palmitate (vitamin C) capsules to take with it.   I recommend to take both of these things removed from their capsules and mixed in some water, so these would more of less replicate the conditions the poster above me mentioned.  I feel that collagen in a pill form is not as well absorbed as a liquid.  Luckily, capsules come apart.  For the collagens I'm familiar with, some co-factors are helpful, liquid form is helpful, but taking it with a meal has caused indigestion. 

 

I haven't taken fish collagen, just type II from chicken, most brands, and types I and III from pigs/cows.  The particular whole cartilage type II, which I recommend, does absorb best on an empty stomach, from experience.   For me, types I and III also absorb best on an empty stomach, from experience, but it made my skin break out because I could not break it down and digest it well enough.  Others have good results from types I and III collagen.  

 

Below is a link to my blog post on supplements I've used to repair connective tissue.   These tips would help bone and teeth too.  

 

http://www.longecity...grow-cartilage/

 

I tried two or three bottles of Swanson's Chicken Sternum Collagen Type II in the capsules along with C and Bamboo on an empty stomach to no effect.  I also tried Doctor's Best Type I and III as well as Verisol Type I and III to no effect other than breaking out.  I have no digestion issues so the lectins issue is interesting.  I tried that fish collagen back in the day and I believe you just pee it out and it makes your pee smell fishy too.  Pass.

 

So there may be something to taking the Sternum out of the capsules and letting it sit, although I can't see why.  Same for ascorbyl palmitate which is a scam since it breaks down in the stomach, but perhaps the non-C fraction helps emulsify the collagen or something like that.  So if you're going to spend money on this pricey stuff, do it like Luminosity says to, even if its a pain in the butt.

 


Edited by MachineGhostX, 29 January 2015 - 03:03 PM.


#282 itpp

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 04:40 PM

 

Goddamned, every time i want to learn something here i get completely messed up. Why is there not a list of things proven to work? All sorts of shit combined in these threats, fallacies, biases, saletactics, yukk

 

:)
 
Just take 10grams of store bought Gelatine dissolved in warm water before bed.
All this type 1,2,3 isn't worth researching and is marketing hype IMHO based on personal experience.

http://www.ergo-log.com/collagen.html

 

 

Would you use 

 

 

Great Lakes Gelatin, Collagen Hydrolysate, Beef, Kosher, 16 oz

 

or

 

 

Great Lakes Unflavored Beef Gelatin, Kosher, 16 Ounce Can

 

thanks



#283 Logic

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 05:37 PM

I simply went to the supermarket/store and bought the Gelatine Powder that's sold there as its much cheaper than the stuff sold in capsules and contains some of all the different types the pill manufacturers like to highlight in their labels in an effort to baffle you with BS IMHO.

Note that hydrolysed simply means dissolved in water. (hydro-Electric, Hydroplane... Hydr as in Hydrogen; O as in Oxygen. Oxidised hydrogen is H2O is water)

So 10 grams of the cheap uncapped gelatine, dissolved in water is what I tried and had success with.

The reason for warm water is that the gelatine dissolves better in it than in cold, while hot water gives you a sticky 'jelly' that stays behind in the bottom of the cup.

10 grams as that is what the studies showed worked and before bed because that amount of gelatine caused a 6X increase the natural HGH spike that occurs 2 hours after falling asleep, so you get even more bang for your buck.

:)

#284 ironfistx

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 06:06 PM

A reply I got from great lakes said that basically all types of collagen are arranged into the form your body can use when you take them.

 

Our Gelatins and Collagen Hydrolysates are all type I.   Don't let that be misleading to your use.  Type I, II,

Or III all found in different molecular weights in tissue.  However, once the body ingests any one of the materials it turns into is least common denominator called poly peptides. This is done by the enzymatic action of the stomach, breaking food source down so that the intestines can absorb it. We find no scientific proof that type III is better than type I for medicinal purpose.  

 

Another reply from them contained

 

Yes Type I, II, and III all have the same results in the body.

 

Looks like maybe it's not such a big deal what kind you get.

 

People think it causes a different process.

 


 


Edited by ironfistx, 29 January 2015 - 06:07 PM.

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#285 Logic

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 07:34 PM

Quite so.

So the cheapest source is as good as any and hydrolysing it is simple kitchen chemistry and then the process of digestion.
I feel like hydrolysing and imbibing some coffee after reading some of that type 1,2,3 hoopla again! (Don't you just love big, confusing, seldom used words. :) )

Discussion of other substances that work, besides collagen, like Glucosamine, Cissus, Horney Goat weed, Olive leaf extract, astragalus, Ecdysterone, and beer may work in lieu of coffee.
But I know better than to bring them up in this thread again! :)
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#286 Maxpower

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 09:44 PM

Very little has been written here about Egg Shell Membrane, but has anyone had much experience with egg shell membrane? I damaged my knee 20 years ago and have had ongoing light to moderate pain. I only started taking eggshell membrane pills and so far these work well for me. 



#287 airplanepeanuts

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 12:04 AM

 

A reply I got from great lakes said that basically all types of collagen are arranged into the form your body can use when you take them.

 

Our Gelatins and Collagen Hydrolysates are all type I.   Don't let that be misleading to your use.  Type I, II,

Or III all found in different molecular weights in tissue.  However, once the body ingests any one of the materials it turns into is least common denominator called poly peptides. This is done by the enzymatic action of the stomach, breaking food source down so that the intestines can absorb it. We find no scientific proof that type III is better than type I for medicinal purpose.  

 

Another reply from them contained

 

Yes Type I, II, and III all have the same results in the body.

 

Looks like maybe it's not such a big deal what kind you get.

 

People think it causes a different process.

 


 

Just because Great Lakes says this, it's not necessarily true.

 

 

 


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#288 MachineGhostX

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 02:17 PM

Note that hydrolysed simply means dissolved in water. (hydro-Electric, Hydroplane... Hydr as in Hydrogen; O as in Oxygen. Oxidised hydrogen is H2O is water)

So 10 grams of the cheap uncapped gelatine, dissolved in water is what I tried and had success with.

 

No, hydrolyzed means the intact protein molecules are broken down via hydrolysis into smaller molecular weights to increase absorbability.  The body preferentially absorbs di- and tri-peptide proteins.  Gelatin which is non-hydrolyzed collagen is allegedly difficult to break down and absorb.  Back in the day shortly after it was introduced, gelatin was actually a fad mothers fed to their babies as a protein supplement until they started dropping dead like flies.  I can confirm that gelatin makes me break out just like Type I and III hydrolyzed collagen.  OTOH, I have no problems with beef protein isolate which is virtually the same in amino acid composition.  So take it for what it's worth.  Worst case you are only absorbing a very small percentage of gelatin and wasting money on the rest.

 

Now, the different types of collagen all have different biomodulating effects and different target tissues.  To say that they don't matter is clearly false.  If you want efficacious quantities of Type II, Great Lakes is a poor source for it which is why they obfuscate the issue instead of being honest about it.

 

Eggshell membrane has interesting properties.  The company that makes Swanson's chicken sternum either uses it in the product or its in another product.

 


Edited by MachineGhostX, 30 January 2015 - 02:24 PM.

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#289 Logic

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 05:11 PM

"Hydrolysis (/haɪˈdrɒlɨsɪs/; from Greek hydro-, meaning "water", and lysis, meaning "separation") usually means the cleavage of chemical bonds by the addition of water. "
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Hydrolysis

"Gelatin is an irreversibly hydrolyzed form of collagen...
Gelatin is a mixture of peptides and proteins produced by partial hydrolysis of collagen..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelatin

But I now see what you mean: Protein hydrolysis requires some help from a catalyst, base or acid as found in the stomach to break down to absorbable peptides and proteins.
http://en.wikipedia....rolyzed_protein

That being said; It does not change the fact the cheap store bought Gelatine, dissolved in water works for me and should for most.

It contains all the types of collagen?
Also I'm sure the initial dissolving helps some?
I suppose making jelly would be even better?

Edited by Logic, 30 January 2015 - 05:12 PM.

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#290 Globespy

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 05:55 PM

@Logic

I'm glad that you took the time to make the posts you made. It's still somewhat confusing as to which collagen product is useful as a previous poster seemed to indicate that different bodily needs require a different form of collagen?
Do you feel that using simple gelatin (dissolved in water) is likely good for most cartilage regrowth scenarios?
Interesting idea about Jello. I love jello, and would happily eat a bunch of it if indeed it served the same purpose as the expensive (and seemingly controversial) Great Lakes hydrolyzed collagen I've been purchasing for several years?

#291 bgs4669

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 06:20 PM

Some differences between Natural collagen (lyophylized collagen) & hydrolysate / hydrolyzed collagen

 

http://collagen.in/n...lyzed-collagen/

https://naturalcolla...pplements/Posts

 

Basically one is freeze dired to keep all the goodies in tact, the other is exposed to heat  to break it down and acids and chemicals used...so big difference on end product...



#292 Logic

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Posted 31 January 2015 - 02:08 AM

@Logic

I'm glad that you took the time to make the posts you made. It's still somewhat confusing as to which collagen product is useful as a previous poster seemed to indicate that different bodily needs require a different form of collagen?
Do you feel that using simple gelatin (dissolved in water) is likely good for most cartilage regrowth scenarios?
Interesting idea about Jello. I love jello, and would happily eat a bunch of it if indeed it served the same purpose as the expensive (and seemingly controversial) Great Lakes hydrolyzed collagen I've been purchasing for several years?


I do as, as posted by Ironfistx recently, the final stage of digestion/hydrolysis is going to break all the different types down to the same thing anyway.

I think dissolving it in warm water is probably not necessary as the digestive process will hydrolyse it anyway but it helps to get the process started and makes it easier to ingest than the 'dry' powder.

The extra money would be better spent on Cissus, Horney Goat weed, Ecdysterone etc. which light a fire under the baker if you think of Gelatine as the cartilage 'cake' ingredients.

#293 Logic

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Posted 31 January 2015 - 02:53 AM

Some differences between Natural collagen (lyophylized collagen) & hydrolysate / hydrolyzed collagen
 
http://collagen.in/n...lyzed-collagen/
https://naturalcolla...pplements/Posts
 
Basically one is freeze dried to keep all the goodies in tact, the other is exposed to heat  to break it down and acids and chemicals used...so big difference on end product...


"...Gelatin, which is used in food and industry, is collagen that has been irreversibly hydrolysed..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collagen

As the process of digestion is going to hydrolyse the collagen to "a mixture of peptides and amino acids" anyway... why bother?
If you are going to be applying it to your skin; that's a whole different ball of wax!
I very much doubt that collagen of any type is going to be absorbed by skin anyway?, but lets not head off subject.

While the 1st site sells skin 'products' is a good example of the kind of site I would do if I wanted to sell gelatine at hugely inflated prices to people who didn't know any better.

1: native to what? It may have been native to the animal of origin. It certainly isn't native to you..?
2,3,4,5: Where are these studies? Why haven't they linked them on the site?
6,7: Except for bad grammar (court case proofing?) I agree.
8,9: they don't go into the process used, so cant comment.
10: I don't know much about Prions, (much like the rest of the world it would seem) but I assume the high temperatures and chemicals used in gelatine manufacture would kill any live prions?
The grammar of the sentence just leaves one going ???! and more suspicious.

The 2nd site has had its security certificate revoked, so I never looked at it and cant comment.

Edited by Logic, 31 January 2015 - 02:53 AM.

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#294 Luminosity

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Posted 31 January 2015 - 05:47 AM

"Logic"   There's a lot of things  you don't understand.  I'm glad store gelatin works for you but you should refrain from advising others because you don't know enough.  


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#295 Logic

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Posted 31 January 2015 - 06:43 AM

"Logic"   There's a lot of things  you don't understand.  I'm glad store gelatin works for you but you should refrain from advising others because you don't know enough.


Educate me!
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#296 Maxpower

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Posted 31 January 2015 - 08:15 AM

I had read that Natural Eggshell Membrane provides collagen, is this right? If so, is it the correct type and amount to have much effect in regenerating cartilage?



#297 RunnerV

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Posted 01 February 2015 - 11:13 AM

Gelatin didn't do anything for my cartliage and gave me some stomach problem and constipation. I did feel my skin seem to be more glowing but it might be my imagination since I so wanted it to work. I now conclude that if there are 20+ types of collagens, they must be serving different purpose in our body  and perhaps I should consume a type II collagen if my aim is to have my cartilage repaired. What I didn't understand is how isn't there any type II collagen product in powder form and I wonder how soon I can start to feel any difference after taking the supplement?


Edited by RunnerV, 01 February 2015 - 11:15 AM.


#298 MachineGhostX

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Posted 01 February 2015 - 04:11 PM

It's too bad there's so much marketing fiction B.S. in this area.

 

Logic is correct that digestion is a [inefficient] hydrolyzation process so it's all generally the same in the end. You can't eat a whole intact protein like collagen and not expect some of it to be broken down into peptides for absorption.  Topically putting it on the skin may be a different beast; I'm pretty sure whole proteins are too large to be absorbed through the skin barrier, though.

 

Now I think where the confusion lies is in that certain peptides are bioactive due to their shape and configuration.  But this shape and configuration are not typically preserved when hydrolyzing in the stomach or through harsh heat/chemical means.  That's why bioactive proteins are generally undenatured and processed through gentle means.  For instance, Swanson's chicken sternum collagen is processed with water!  That's it.  That's about as gentle as you can get.  And it is taken on an empty stomach so stomach acid does not degrade the peptides.

 

The body does not absorb all of the protein you eat.  I think only about 40% of a protein is actually absorbed with the rest excreted as waste.  The advantage in hydrolyzation is increasing net usuable absorption of protein.  Preserving peptide bioactivity is an further refinement and arguably the whole point.  There are hydrolyzed collagens where the bioactivity is preserved with some scientific evidence of working, i.e. Swanson's chicken sternum and VeriSol.  The rest are just overpriced, dehydrated so-called gelatins.

 

Whether or not these so-called gelatins are poorly absorbed is a good question.  People seem to report issues with them.  Perhaps taking it along with Betaine HCL would provide some evidence whether or not it is an absorbability issue.

 


Edited by MachineGhostX, 01 February 2015 - 04:14 PM.

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#299 mustardseed41

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Posted 01 February 2015 - 07:47 PM

Just started taking UC-II a few days ago.



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#300 nickdino

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Posted 02 February 2015 - 12:19 PM


Goddamned, every time i want to learn something here i get completely messed up. Why is there not a list of things proven to work? All sorts of shit combined in these threats, fallacies, biases, saletactics, yukk



:)

Just take 10grams of store bought Gelatine dissolved in warm water before bed.
All this type 1,2,3 isn't worth researching and is marketing hype IMHO based on personal experience.

http://www.ergo-log.com/collagen.html

Would you use

Great Lakes Gelatin, Collagen Hydrolysate, Beef, Kosher, 16 oz

or

Great Lakes Unflavored Beef Gelatin, Kosher, 16 Ounce Can

thanks

I have, not sure which one of the two, and it had effects on my appearance, comments on skin looking better. But, it smells a bit nasty. I was hoping to find something even better perhaps.




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