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Regrowing cartilage with collagen supplements?


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#61 ironfistx

  • Location:Chicago

Posted 13 January 2013 - 04:31 PM

Thanks. Regarding "listening to my body," I'm not sure how to tell if I need more collagen or not based on that. I may boost it up to two servings a day for a while, though.
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#62 smithx Re: Regrowing cartilage with collagen supplements?

Posted 13 January 2013 - 04:39 PM

Cissus



I tried cissus for 2 months with no noticeable result.
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#63 BDon Re: Regrowing cartilage with collagen supplements?

  • Location:USA

Posted 13 January 2013 - 06:31 PM

I heard Cissus is actively good around 8g minimum.. I've noticed a body-recomposition effects with Cissus quite strangely. A great pump if taken pre-WO
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#64 ironfistx Re: Regrowing cartilage with collagen supplements?

  • Location:Chicago

Posted 13 January 2013 - 07:26 PM

Isn't Cissus a steroid (ketosterone)?

Edited by ironfistx, 13 January 2013 - 07:27 PM.

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#65 Luminosity Re: Regrowing cartilage with collagen supplements?

  • Location:Gaia

Posted 14 January 2013 - 07:14 AM

I would take MSM and collagen divided into two daily doses regardless of the dose. I personally can't take MSM in the evening because it causes me to have a hard time going to sleep. If you take more than one tablet of Stimtein, I would divide that as well.

If I were you I would take the equivalent of six capsules of the Swanson's type two collagen I recommended twice a day (12 capsules a day) with vitamin C, processed as recommende,d on an empty stomach. It's best if it isn't in the last hour before bed, but you could do this if you forget earlier. I would start with a half teaspoon of MSM powder twice a day (one teaspoon total per day) taken as recommended. I have personally worked up to four teaspoons a day.

If you take too much of something you might feel over full, bloated, sluggish, get skin erruptions or just not receive an additional benefit. These are nutrients similar to food. You probably know if you eat too much fruit, protein, etc. Just be observant and listen to your body. Each person is different. You didn't give us your height, weight, age or anything so I'm just guessing.
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#66 BDon Re: Regrowing cartilage with collagen supplements?

  • Location:USA

Posted 14 January 2013 - 01:46 PM

I heard about cissus being a steroid (Ketosterone) however are you thinking it'll have AAS properties? I doubt it..

One of my buddies tells me he takes 20 grams MSM, 6000mg Glucosamine he mentioned not sulfate some 2kCL glucosamine I have no clue what it is. He takes Collagen being from Chicken and Fish? UC-2. He takes a expensive fish oil by Nordic Naturals Ultimate Pro Omega liquid 4g total EPA/DHA.

He told me most omega-3 products are a fluke because the EPA+DHA doesn't equal the Total Omega-3 listed.. so 1 gram of Fish-oil can be something like 420/150 EPA/DHA so he said count the EPA/DHA combine it for total omega-3. He used to take 50g omega-3 but now he says 4 grams is enough...

Last thing he mentioned injectable Curcumin..

he was fighting bad pain and arhtritis and after awhile.. with this regimine after 4 weeks he's noticed a slight improvement of flexibility/joint-mobility but he's also stretching his joints, warming up too so I believe it's the stretching and warming up the joints that's creating a greater effect than the supplements..
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#67 niner Re: Regrowing cartilage with collagen supplements?

  • Location:Philadelphia

Posted 14 January 2013 - 02:41 PM

Cola de caballo = horsetail (you can find many more products when looking for its english name) , a good source of organic silica indeed


Horsetail has a variety of biological effects, some of which may not be desirable (e.g. diuresis). I just looked through pubmed, and couldn't find a single indication that it was a good source of bioavailable silica in humans. The plant does contain silica, to be sure; I just don't know that it's bioavailable. On the other hand, there are a lot of studies with collagen-associated endpoints in humans that show efficacy with BioSil. That (or maybe JarrowSil) would be my go-to source for silica. Another good source of silica is beer, of all things. It has its own advantages and disadvantages.

Here's the search I used:

("equisetum"[MeSH Terms] OR "equisetum"[All Fields] OR "horsetail"[All Fields]) AND "humans"[MeSH Terms]
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#68 daouda Re: Regrowing cartilage with collagen supplements?

  • Location:France

Posted 14 January 2013 - 04:03 PM

Its not scientific at all, but you can find as many satisfied reviews of horsetail silica supplements on iherb than for biosil (some saying they think it works just as well). Of course this has zero scientific value, but I have not read any studies for abosrbtion of silica from horsetail... However horsetail indeed presents risks that may negate the benefit of taking it longterm for the hypothetical silicon-fueled collagen boost. Another source of (literally) dirt cheap silica is diatomaceous earth, but its not supposed to be absorbed well. An article from a "herbalist" on the dangers of horsetail vs DE says some of the silica from DE will be transformed into OSA in the GI tract and absorbed http://www.mountainm...etail Grass.htm (interestingly they sell joint formulas but NO diatomaceous earth so the info might actually be unbiaised. No studies behind her assertions but they are interesting). Other natural sources of silica : nettle, oatgrass... Nettle also is a diuretic and we have no data about the absorbtion of its silica content.
Bamboo extract is touted by some as being the best natural silica supplement. Solaray makes a bamboo extract product which you can find on iherb. Bamboo has been used as a traditional medicine for centuries in China and India, the resin collected from the knots in the stems is called Tabashir, and is traditionnaly used to re-mineralize the body, treat arthritis and cartilage degeneration and to help repair broken bones. Of course you wont find any studies on pubmed about this so you'll discard it.
Biosil funded all the studies that showed its supposed superiority, so I take it with a huge pich of salt.
Also an independent study showed that Biosil (ChOSA) doesnt seem well abosrbed enough to justify the cost, isnt it? http://www.longecity...post__p__413135
Actually alcohol free beer really looks like the most cost effective option, but comes with many extra calories and sugar.

Edited by daouda, 14 January 2013 - 04:57 PM.

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#69 ironfistx Re: Regrowing cartilage with collagen supplements?

  • Location:Chicago

Posted 14 January 2013 - 04:24 PM

I heard about cissus being a steroid (Ketosterone) however are you thinking it'll have AAS properties? I doubt it..


No, but some people may have a condition that prevents them from using any type of steroids, so I think it's important that it be mentioned that Cissus is a steroid.

He told me most omega-3 products are a fluke because the EPA+DHA doesn't equal the Total Omega-3 listed.. so 1 gram of Fish-oil can be something like 420/150 EPA/DHA so he said count the EPA/DHA combine it for total omega-3.


Agreed!

I actually made a chart of a bunch of different brands of fish oil to look at how much EPA/DHA you're actually getting and what percentage it is compared to the total fish oil.

You are right, some of them say "1g fish oil" but if you look it's only like 300mg EPA and 200mg DHA. WHAT'S THE OTHER 500mg???

I use Vitamin Shoppe liquid fish oil which is 1,500mg fish oil made up of 800mg EPA AND 500mg DHA. Sure, that only totals 1,300mg, but it's much better than most other brands.

He used to take 50g omega-3 but now he says 4 grams is enough...


I've been taking 2-3g a day.

50? That would be like half the bottle at once.

Last thing he mentioned injectable Curcumin..


Curcumin, even at small doses, gave me diarrhea and negatively affected my libido. It's also an MAOI (although one without the "cheese effect").
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#70 ironfistx Re: Regrowing cartilage with collagen supplements?

  • Location:Chicago

Posted 15 January 2013 - 12:30 AM

Does anyone know the difference between hydrolyzed collagen and unhydrolyzed collagen?

I've seen both forms of Type II available (sometimes paired with Hyaluronic Acid), but I can't seem to find anything talking about which kind is better besides some promotional material from the unhydrolyzed collagen manufacturers saying it's better.

Also, I see Hyaluronic Acid mentioned a lot as a joint supplement, but then I read something else about it playing a role in cancer, or helping it metastacize or something. Anyone know about that?
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#71 Logic Re: Regrowing cartilage with collagen supplements?

  • Location:Kimberley, South Africa
  • yes

Posted 15 January 2013 - 07:02 AM

I have ancedotal reports of joint and back pain relief from myself and two other people to whom i have given Solgar's Astragalus.
This got me looking for clinical info/evidence on it using 'cartilage chondrocyte astragalus pubmed' as a search.
This is what I have found so far:
( Remember that all bone starts out as cartilage...)

http://www.naturalhe...ing-astragalus/

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21351470

http://www.cabdirect....11-15-g9672536

http://163.180.18.21...18/40067899.pdf
Astragalus membranaceus plays the important role on angiogenesis and osteogenesis
in tissue regeneration through enhanced by growth factors (bFGF, VEGF) and
extracellular matrix proteins (OCN, OPN, Col), and possibly lead to the development
of tissue-regeneration drug and bone-formation.


2 other interesting studies on different herbs that also popped up:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21091251

http://www.searchmed...82.xml&t=pubmed

These herbs and HGH boosters seem worth further investigation IMHO.

http://www.thereales...s.com/hgh2.html
???

http://www.longecity...a-gpc-research/
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#72 niner Re: Regrowing cartilage with collagen supplements?

  • Location:Philadelphia

Posted 16 January 2013 - 02:11 AM

Also an independent study showed that Biosil (ChOSA) doesnt seem well abosrbed enough to justify the cost, isnt it? http://www.longecity...post__p__413135
Actually alcohol free beer really looks like the most cost effective option, but comes with many extra calories and sugar.


Good find on that- I'd forgotten that post.
What about the magnesium trisilicate? Of course, this might be a problem if you take enough to have an antacid effect, but a supplemental dose might be low enough to work. And we shouldn't forget green beans and oats. One concern I have is that urinary silica isn't really the endpoint we're interested in. We're really interested in collagen, cartilage, bone, skin, and hair. That's something that the BioSil papers have in their favor. I acknowledge the possible conflict of interest, but the data is what it is.

Does anyone know the difference between hydrolyzed collagen and unhydrolyzed collagen?


Collagen is a protein, which is a long chain of amino acids that are connected "head to tail". Hydrolysis breaks the chain into shorter chains, and ultimately into individual amino acids, if it's fully hydrolyzed. This process is sometimes called "digestion", probably because it's exactly what happens when you eat a protein. Your body is full of enzymes (called proteases) that hydrolyze proteins so that you can use the amino acids that they contain. So this leaves me wondering if it matters if the collagen is hydrolyzed or not. I'm sure it helps at least some, but it seems kind of hard to believe that humans aren't able to metabolize Jello.
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#73 Luminosity Re: Regrowing cartilage with collagen supplements?

  • Location:Gaia

Posted 16 January 2013 - 04:36 AM

ironfistx,

You should take unhydrolyzed type II collagen. It is more effective. Hydrolyzed collagen has been further processed with water, if I understand correctly. There are several manufacturers who sell their type II collagen to the supplement companies. They have different processes. They have patents and tout their products as superior. In my opinion, all of them are inferior to the specific one used in the Swanson's Type II Chicken Sternal Collagen. I've taken them all. I've talked to the companies. If you even find that same collagen elsewhere, even from the manufacturer, there are problems with it.

I am hoping you will try that specific supplement for a month, taken as directed. You might as well take the type I and III collagen for now since you probably have it on hand. You can keep taking it later if you want. Be sure to let it soak in some water beforehand.

I've spent thousands of dollars trying supplements for these type of problems. I've spoken to most of the companies, looked up the ingredients, etc. I hope you will give my regimen a try. Everyone is different, but I think it might really help you.

. . . horsetail indeed presents risks that may negate the benefit of taking it longterm for the hypothetical silicon-fueled collagen boost.

What risks? -- Luminosity

Another source of (literally) dirt cheap silica is diatomaceous earth, but its not supposed to be absorbed well. An article from a "herbalist" on the dangers of horsetail vs DE says some of the silica from DE will be transformed into OSA in the GI tract and absorbed http://www.mountainm...etail Grass.htm

That would be inorganic minerals, similar to taking chalk (calcium carbonate) for calcium. Doesn't sound like a good idea. Our bodies are not set up to process a lot of inorganic minerals well, otherwise we could just eat this stuff instead of plants and animals. -- Luminosity

Biosil funded all the studies that showed its supposed superiority, so I take it with a huge pich of salt.
Also an independent study showed that Biosil (ChOSA) doesnt seem well abosrbed enough to justify the cost, isnt it? http://www.longecity...post__p__413135

Good point. I used to take Jarrosil, http://www.jarrow.co...ct/491/JarroSil
which seems to have a similar formulation to Biosil. It was helpful but not as helpful as a really good plant-derived supplement. Both these brands seem to be inorganic, in the sense that they are derived from minerals that are mined or are made in a lab. I now take Cola de Caballo by Amazon Therapeutics because I find it more absorbable. It is plant-derived and wild-crafted from virgin land in the Amazon. It is also properly processed to be absorbed. Below you can see my findings on what the best Silica supplement is, from my experience. Thanks for the heads up on the bamboo. -- Luminosity

http://www.longecity...ica-supplement/


Edited by Luminosity, 16 January 2013 - 05:13 AM.

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#74 BDon Re: Regrowing cartilage with collagen supplements?

  • Location:USA

Posted 21 January 2013 - 07:23 PM

MSM any good? in high doses of 20g daily.

Are there alternatives to Glucosamine. I believe I read a long time ago that Glucosamine Sulfate > Glucosamine HCL and there is some stronger potent Glucosamine with the name of 2-KCL Glucosamine but I can't find it.
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#75 ironfistx Re: Regrowing cartilage with collagen supplements?

  • Location:Chicago

Posted 21 January 2013 - 08:27 PM

As I understand it, Glucosamine Sulfate and Glucosamine 2KCL are the same thing.

The stuff I have from Vitamin Shoppe says "Glucosamine Sulfate" on the front and "Glucosamine Sulfate 2KCl" on the supplement facts.

Here's a discussion about the difference:
http://www.bluelight...e-2KCl-Question
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#76 Luminosity Re: Regrowing cartilage with collagen supplements?

  • Location:Gaia

Posted 26 January 2013 - 02:16 AM

Andrew Lessman owner of Procaps, a vitamin company says that glucosamine sulfate is superior to glucosamine HCL, for what it's worth. I know that depending on the form, a nutrient can be very helpful, useless or an irritant.
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#77 ironfistx Re: Regrowing cartilage with collagen supplements?

  • Location:Chicago

Posted 26 January 2013 - 07:14 AM

Here is some interesting info:

In a study published in Nutrition Journal, researchers reported that 80mg/day oral hyaluronic acid significantly lessened pain and improved mobility. The hyaluronic acid was derived from chicken combs.12



Referenced study:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum

I've also heard hyaluronic acid can cause cancer to metastasize.


Avocado / Soybean unsaponifiables (ASU) is an extract of avocado and soybean. It has been shown to reduce pain, slow the breakdown of cartilage and stimulate the synthesis of new cartilage.30,31,32 A recent Danish review of four published studies found that ASU reduced pain in people with knee osteoarthritis.33 Another study reported that a combination of ASU, glucosamine and chondroitin sulphate reduced the activity of genes involved in making interleukin-6 and tumour necrosis factor, both promoters of inflammation.34,35



Referenced studies:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....oSearch=9433873
http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum
http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum
http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum
http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum


Astaxanthin inhibits NF-kappaB, which would otherwise stimulate the expression of inflammation-promoting genes.36 Cell and animal studies have documented the anti-inflammatory benefits of this antioxidant carotenoid. It also blocks other inflammation promoters, including tumour necrosis factor alpha, interleukin-1B, COX-1 and COX-2 enzymes, and prostaglandin E2.37,38



Referenced studies:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum


Boswellia is an herb known more formally as Boswellia serrata, with a long history of medicinal use in Ayurvedic traditions. Its biologically active constituents are known as boswellic acids. Many of boswellia's anti-inflammatory benefits appear related to its ability to inhibit 5-lipoxygenase, an enzyme involved in the production of pro-inflammatory leukotrienes.39,40 This mode of action is different from most natural and pharmaceutical products, which inhibit the activity of COX enzymes.


Referenced study:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum


Note that some of the studies they mentioned have had their links removed. I'm not sure if that is an error on the author's part, or if the studies were actually pulled form PubMed.

I'm especially interested in learning more about ASU since it claims to encourage the synthesis of new cartilage. Most doctors say growing new cartilage is impossible (without stem cells). It doesn't seem tho that the word "cartilage" is even mentioned anywhere in any of those referenced studies, however, so how are they saying that ASU has anything to do with cartilage synthesis?

edit - I didn't know the links were going to show up when I pasted the articles so that's why I added them separately below.

Source:
http://archive.funct...-cartilage.aspx

Edited by ironfistx, 26 January 2013 - 07:19 AM.

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#78 ironfistx Re: Regrowing cartilage with collagen supplements?

  • Location:Chicago

Posted 30 January 2013 - 10:39 PM

Here are two studies that say adipose stem cells inhibit cartilage regeneration:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22920724

http://www.nature.co...m.2012.155.html
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#79 ironfistx Re: Regrowing cartilage with collagen supplements?

  • Location:Chicago

Posted 31 January 2013 - 03:10 AM

For collagen hydrolysate, from the available in vitro and in vivo studies as well as clinical trials [85, 86], it may be concluded that collagen hydrolysate is absorbed by the gastrointestinal tract and incorporated into the joint cartilage. It may lead to increased mobility and physical function with a significant pain relief.


Source:
http://www.hindawi.c...jr/2011/969012/

Studies:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pt=AbstractPlus
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pt=AbstractPlus

Edited by ironfistx, 31 January 2013 - 03:10 AM.

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#80 ironfistx Re: Regrowing cartilage with collagen supplements?

  • Location:Chicago

Posted 31 January 2013 - 05:27 AM

Every study that I read about hydrolyzed collagen involves using 10g per day. I read somewhere else where they said that was the "ideal" dosage.

I keep wanting to do 20 or 30g per day for a month or so as an attack dose, but I don't think there's any research using more than 10g. I don't see how using more could be negative. I doubt that taking 20g per day would somehow result in less absorption. It's probably just the "some is good therefore more is better" instinct making me want to take higher doses.

Thoughts?

Edited by ironfistx, 31 January 2013 - 05:28 AM.

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#81 ironfistx Re: Regrowing cartilage with collagen supplements?

  • Location:Chicago

Posted 31 January 2013 - 05:45 AM

Wait, this page says it is dose dependent:

In March 2003, Oesser et al. demonstrated for the first time that collagen hydrolysate stimulates collagen synthesis in cartilage cells (Cell Tissue Res 311:393-399). The enrichment of a chondrocyte cell culture medium with collagen hydrolysate led to a significant, dose-dependent stimulation of collagen synthesis in cartilage cells, that was not detectable in the controls.


Source:
http://gelita-health-initiative.de/66

Can anyone think of any negative effects of increasing the daily dose from 10g of collagen hydrolyzate to 20g or 30g? It's just added protein intake, right? So worst case senecario is there is no added benefit over 10g/daily?

While there are no recommendations on the therapeutic intake of collagen hydrolysate, studies suggest a 10 g daily dose may be beneficial. The treatment period should not be less than three months. However, as symptoms tend to return after discontinuation of treatment, long-term administration may be prudent. Collagen hydrolysate has no side effects, therefore long-term regular use is safe and may serve as preventive measure.


Edited by ironfistx, 31 January 2013 - 05:49 AM.

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#82 Logic Re: Regrowing cartilage with collagen supplements?

  • Location:Kimberley, South Africa
  • yes

Posted 31 January 2013 - 06:03 AM

Ecdysterone repairs cartilage in joints

Ecdysterone, a steroid found in spinach-type plants, helps joint cartilage to grow. Endocrinologists at the University of Goettingen, Germany, reached this conclusion from experiments they did with rats. Bodybuilders are familiar with the muscle-growth effects of ecdysterone supplements but according to the Germans, ecdysterone may also help strengthen joints and bones...

...Bones grow in length through growth plates located near the end of bones. Estradiol makes the plates smaller and thinner; ecdysterone makes them larger and thicker...

The same is said for Astragalus in the links in my previous post.

http://ergo-log.com/...ronejoints.html
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#83 ironfistx Re: Regrowing cartilage with collagen supplements?

  • Location:Chicago

Posted 31 January 2013 - 07:46 AM

I'm really confused by all of this.

My doctor said "cartilage does not regrow."

But I see studies online that talk about supplements that "encourage cartilage synthesis" or whatever.

Another question while I'm on the subject:

Are there any things that could cause joint issues that would show up in a blood test? I'm 32, low body fat, and never had any inuries other than the occasional pulled muscle and tendonitis a few times. Why would I have grade 3/4 chondral fissuring in my elbow? Should I ask my doc for any particular blood tests? Because this issue seems so out of place for me, I wonder if there is some underlying reason. I don't want it to affect any other joints.
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#84 Logic Re: Regrowing cartilage with collagen supplements?

  • Location:Kimberley, South Africa
  • yes

Posted 31 January 2013 - 09:15 AM

Cissus quadrangularis helps bone cells make more IGF-1
Athletes use extracts of Cissus quadrangularis to help joint injuries mend more quickly. If the collagen producing cells react in the same way as the bone cells that endocrinologists at the University of Madras used in their experiments, this may throw light on how the extracts work: they boost IGF-1 production...
http://ergo-log.com/...sbonecells.html

Astragalus membranaceus, Phlomis umbrosa and Eleutherococcus senticosus makes bones longer
...The supplement increased the concentration of IGF-1 and – to a lesser extent – the 'good binding protein' IGF-BP3 in the growth plates in comparison with the control groups. IGF-BP3 transports IGF-1 without reducing the activity of the growth factor...

As growth plates are cartilage..???
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#85 pleb Re: Regrowing cartilage with collagen supplements?

  • Location:England

Posted 31 January 2013 - 10:10 AM


(extract)

In India local healers use Cissus quadrangularis to help set broken bones. Experiments with rats and dogs [Indian Journal of Pharmacology 1994; 26:44-5.]

was this before or after adding the Curry !

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#86 Logic Re: Regrowing cartilage with collagen supplements?

  • Location:Kimberley, South Africa
  • yes

Posted 31 January 2013 - 11:07 AM

(extract)
In India local healers use Cissus quadrangularis to help set broken bones. Experiments with rats and dogs [Indian Journal of Pharmacology 1994; 26:44-5.]
was this before or after adding the Curry !


:-D Before. After. As-long-as-you-add-the-curry-and-all!

Edited by Logic, 31 January 2013 - 11:18 AM.

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#87 ironfistx Re: Regrowing cartilage with collagen supplements?

  • Location:Chicago

Posted 31 January 2013 - 05:49 PM

This one confused me a bit.

Does this mean it's not a good idea to use PRP in an osetoarthritic joint?

Abstract
The physical properties of cartilage depend on the structure and organization of the macromolecules in the extracellular matrix. When the extracellular matrix is damaged, this leads to loss of these physical properties and result in pain and disability for the patient suffering from a damaged joint. Cartilage has very poor healing capabilities and is therefore not able to repair itself and regenerate. It would be a great advantage if the cartilage could be stimulated to regenerate itself in order to prevent surgical interventions. PRP is a small fraction of plasma containing a high concentration of platelets which can be produced by centrifugal separation of whole blood. By activating the PRP with thrombin, several growth factors are released from the platelets. Several recent studies investigated the effects of PRP on the proliferation, ECM synthesis and differentiation of chondrocytes in human and animal in-vitro and in-vivo models. However, most of these studies state different conclusions about the effect of PRP on chondrocytes. Moreover, no study to our knowledge has investigated the effect of PRP on osteoarthritic chondrocytes. It is known from literature that there are several differences in metabolism and phenotype between osteoarthritic and healthy chondrocytes. Hence, the overall aim of this study is to investigate effect of PRP on osteoarthritic chondrocytes in order to determine the feasibility of a clinical application. This aim is split up into 3 minor aims. The first aim is to determine the effect of PRP on the proliferation of osteoarthritic chondrocytes. The second aim is to investigate ECM synthesis in osteoarthritic chondrocytes in response to PRP treatment. The third aim is to investigate the effect of PRP on differentiation of osteoarthritic chondrocytes. In order to perform the experiments in this study, a medical protocol was written as a part of the project and approved by the medical ethical committee of the Catharina Hospital in Eindhoven. This study showed that the addition of PRP leads to differences in GAG synthesis. Significant effects were found between the 50% PPP group and both the PRP groups after 7 and 14 days of culture, where the GAG content decreased with increasing platelet concentratoin. In addition the 50% PPP group showed a significant increase in GAG content after 14 days of culture compared to the medium control. No differences between the different experimental groups were found for proliferation. Collagen content could not be measured, but histological analysis showed no real difference in collagen synthesis between the experimental groups. Immunohistochemical analysis showed that the produced collagen was collagen type II. Analysis of the growth factors showed that the concentrations of TGF- 1 were 4-8 times the optimal concentration given in literature for cartilage tissue engineering. The combined results show that addition of increasing concentrations of PRP leads to increasing inhibition of GAG synthesis. These results can be explained by the high TGF- 1 concentrations found after 3 days of culture. Therefore, based on these results it can be concluded that it is not wise to use these concentrations of PRP in an osteoarthritic joint. However, due to the lack of gene expression data, the complete effect of PRP is not yet known and therefore this conclusion has to be taken with caution.


Source:
http://www.mate.tue....tract.php/10622

I have multiple places that are telling me they want to inject PRP into my elbow.
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#88 niner Re: Regrowing cartilage with collagen supplements?

  • Location:Philadelphia

Posted 01 February 2013 - 01:37 AM

My doctor said "cartilage does not regrow."

But I see studies online that talk about supplements that "encourage cartilage synthesis" or whatever.

Another question while I'm on the subject:

Are there any things that could cause joint issues that would show up in a blood test? I'm 32, low body fat, and never had any inuries other than the occasional pulled muscle and tendonitis a few times. Why would I have grade 3/4 chondral fissuring in my elbow? Should I ask my doc for any particular blood tests? Because this issue seems so out of place for me, I wonder if there is some underlying reason. I don't want it to affect any other joints.


It's pretty typical for doctors to not be up on the latest science, particularly when it doesn't come out of big pharma. Sorry to hear about the elbow. Sometimes these things happen for no obvious reason, but it might be an injury from years ago that finally came home to roost. I can't think of any blood tests that would be likely to shed much light on it, and that your doctor would have easy access to. The good news is that it's not the sort of thing that will spread to another joint. I'd get started on a 10 gram/day hydrolyzed collagen regimen, but I'd be a little hesitant about jacking it up to 20 or 30. It's not just more protein, its more of a particular set of amino acids, since collagen isn't like most protein.

This one confused me a bit. Does this mean it's not a good idea to use PRP in an osetoarthritic joint?


[confusing in vitro hoo-hah...]
Therefore, based on these results it can be concluded that it is not wise to use these concentrations of PRP in an osteoarthritic joint. However, due to the lack of gene expression data, the complete effect of PRP is not yet known and therefore this conclusion has to be taken with caution.


I have multiple places that are telling me they want to inject PRP into my elbow.


I wouldn't get too alarmed about that paper. A lot more important would be papers that look at PRP in conditions like yours. I suspect that PRP would be better for milder grades of injury. If you have diagnostic images of your elbow, or a good description of the injury, you could ask the PRP guys to show you the results from similar cases. It might also be good to get an opinion on PRP from a doctor that doesn't have something to sell.
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#89 ironfistx Re: Regrowing cartilage with collagen supplements?

  • Location:Chicago

Posted 01 February 2013 - 03:17 AM

I'd get started on a 10 gram/day hydrolyzed collagen regimen, but I'd be a little hesitant about jacking it up to 20 or 30. It's not just more protein, its more of a particular set of amino acids, since collagen isn't like most protein.


Is there any particular reason you wouldn't increase it to 20 or 30g? Do you think there would be any danger, or it would just be wasteful. I've been using 10g Fortigel daily since Jan 11th, so 20 days as of today.

I wouldn't get too alarmed about that paper. A lot more important would be papers that look at PRP in conditions like yours. I suspect that PRP would be better for milder grades of injury. If you have diagnostic images of your elbow, or a good description of the injury, you could ask the PRP guys to show you the results from similar cases. It might also be good to get an opinion on PRP from a doctor that doesn't have something to sell.


That is a good idea.

I've just read about another treatment called Orthokine (called Regenokine in the US) that is what Kobe Bryant had on his knees.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthokine

It's similiar to PRP but the blood is heated which is supposed to make some anti-inflammatory aspects of it more powerful, and part of the blood that targets Interleukin-1 is used rather than platelets.

I'm not sure I understand how that would work in arthritis, though. How is an anti-inflammatory process going to regrow cartilage?

edit - upon further reading, it seems it may just stop the progression of osteoarthritis, but doesn't actually regrow cartilage or improve the existing condition.
http://beckersspine....sports-medicine

edit 2 - The Regenexx website says it's not as good as PRP:
http://www.regenexx....ne-to-the-dogs/

Edited by ironfistx, 01 February 2013 - 03:31 AM.

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#90 Luminosity Re: Regrowing cartilage with collagen supplements?

  • Location:Gaia

Posted 01 February 2013 - 06:30 AM

Don't know what PRP is.

Your doctor is WRONG.

As previously stated, standard Western medicine doesn't have the capacity to regrow cartilage. If there is some edgy experimental thing they want to do that is supposed to help, ask for proof. Ask to talk to patients that have been helped. Wholistic and Asian medicine considers what you want to be on the edge of possibility, but you have to find the right information because not all of it is.

I continue to hope that you will try my various recommendations together for at least a month if not three months because I believe that is your best bet. I have done what you want to do.

I personally take twelve capsules of Swansons type II collagen each day, along with various other substances. I can't tell you how many grams that is. I would take more but my body doesn't get any additional benefit from that and these pills are expensive. All my supplements are expensive, so I try not to waste them. I take them the best way, at the best times. I have to take many substances and follow the routine. You will likely have to take these supplements for a long time.

It's hard for us to give you dosages because we don't know your height, weight, activity level, what you do for a living, etc. I would say, listen to your body.

If you are going to beat this thing, it will cost a lot of money so spend that money wisely.

I think your interest in healthy fats and related substances is good. They are important here. Not sure exactly which supplements would be best.

There is also Cetyl Myristoleate aka

CM8® which is used as an ingredient in a supplement called Flexcin, among other things. I think it is also used in something called Celedrin or something like that.

I haven't tried any of this. There are a number of threads about this substance on this site. Here are links to two of them. If you do have an interest in splitting a bulk order, let me know.


http://www.longecity...l-myristoleate/

http://www.longecity...oleateceladrin/

Someone wrote about ecdysterone. I took it, but I stopped. It did make me want to exercise and it seemed to help with the problem a little, but it messed up my periods in a weird way that never happened to me before. That worried me and I wouldn't take it again. It is a steroid-like substance extracted from a plant, I believe.

Not sure why you've developed this problem. If you want to tell us more about your eating habits, supplements, drugs, medications, smoking habits, exercise habits, family health issues, personal and health history, maybe we can be of more use. It is weird at your age. Any steriod use? Work history? Extreme diets? Drunk lots of energy drinks or sodas? Industrial exposures to toxins or radiation? Any unusual radiation exposures now?

You are making progress in learning stuff and sorting through the information. I just wish you would try all my recommendations for a month to three months.

In addition, this is a thread I wrote about Chinese medicine. A good acupuncturist might have more ideas on why this happened:

http://www.longecity...hinese-medicine

Edited by Luminosity, 01 February 2013 - 06:50 AM.

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