15 replies to this topic

[ocean.soul]

Hi everyone! I don't understand what is tolerance... In wikipedia says something like “it is a condition where a drug does no longer produce the desired effect”.

If I negate this proposition, it would say something like this: “If a drug produces the desire effect then you have not developed tolerance to it.”

Now, my question is... if you take something in order to prevent tolerance (for example, memantine) wouldn't this be equivalent than waiting for tolerance to develop and being at that time, do nothing about it?

What I am trying to say is, if memantine for example reduces tolerance or prevents (methylphenidate) tolerance, then we could say that methylphenidate would not “work” or produce the same effect if you take memantine? Thus what's the point of taking memantine???

[jadamgo]

Tolerance is not an "all-or-nothing" thing. You can have partial tolerance to a drug, where it still has some effect, but not as much as it ordinarily should. Or you may develop tolerance to some effects of a drug, but not other effects. One of the big problems with abusing drugs like methamphetamine or heroin is that people develop very high tolerance to the pleasure of taking the drug, but they don't develop as much tolerance to the side effects. They take higher and higher doses of the drug, trying to chase the original pleasure, and the side effects get worse and worse.

That said, I don't really see much point in trying to prevent MPH tolerance with memantine because in my experience, there is no tolerance when it's dosed properly. And if you're taking too much MPH, adding memantine isn't going to make it work any better because memantine is not equipped to counteract the effects of MPH overdose, even mild overdose.

As for your last question, if memantine were able to completely prevent MPH tolerance, then theoretically you could take as much MPH as you wanted and it would keep working well. But again, that wouldn't happen in real life because taking too much MPH does NOT make your brain work well, regardless of whether or not tolerance is present.

[ocean.soul]

I see. thanks for replying! So dont really need to take care about tolerance because I take only 10mg (5mg in the morning and 5 in the afternoon). I want to keep the dosage as low as I can.

[jadamgo]

Yes, the rule of using ADHD drugs right is "take the lowest dose you can get away with."

[dasikins]

But eventually to get the same effects as the 'low dosage' you will need to increase at some time T. That some time T maybe rate dependent on a nmda receptor antagonist. From what I understand it does not prevent tolerance, but may aid in controlling the rate. Is this correct?

I just read an article http://onlinelibrary...2846.x/abstract from 2012 indicating it may play a vital role in Serotonin levels when depleting substances are used.

I just started researching this maybe a week ago so my knowledge maybe off, but there seems to be evidence of investigation at least. There is so much we still don't know yet as with any medicine and ailments. It's a forever growing field.

[jadamgo]

Does T mean Tolerance? If so, then at appropriately low doses, ADHD drugs don't cause tolerance. That means low doses of amphetamines, or medium to low doses of methylphenidate. There simply isn't any tolerance. If you develop a tolerance, you're either taking too much ADHD meds, or you're getting a cross-tolerance with some other stimulant, usually caffeine (or in depressed people, Wellbutrin).

[therein]

Tolerance is not an "all-or-nothing" thing. You can have partial tolerance to a drug, where it still has some effect, but not as much as it ordinarily should. Or you may develop tolerance to some effects of a drug, but not other effects. One of the big problems with abusing drugs like methamphetamine or heroin is that people develop very high tolerance to the pleasure of taking the drug, but they don't develop as much tolerance to the side effects. They take higher and higher doses of the drug, trying to chase the original pleasure, and the side effects get worse and worse.

That said, I don't really see much point in trying to prevent MPH tolerance with memantine because in my experience, there is no tolerance when it's dosed properly. And if you're taking too much MPH, adding memantine isn't going to make it work any better because memantine is not equipped to counteract the effects of MPH overdose, even mild overdose.

As for your last question, if memantine were able to completely prevent MPH tolerance, then theoretically you could take as much MPH as you wanted and it would keep working well. But again, that wouldn't happen in real life because taking too much MPH does NOT make your brain work well, regardless of whether or not tolerance is present.

I am pretty sure I am using MPH the right way but can you elaborate on what you have in mind saying 'the right way'?

Currently, I am taking at most 5mg dexmethylphenidate in the morning and 5mg in the afternoon. Note that 5mg of dexmethylphenidate is roughly equivalent to 10mg of methylphenidate.

[nupi]

20mg Ritalin per day is a relatively low dose... Concerta comes in 54mg sustained release pills and people go above that!

[jadamgo]

Yeah, some people take up to 108mg of Concerta per day. I don't think that's wise at all; I'd call that "overdosing" because of not only the possibility for severe side effects, but also a risk of brain damage over the long term.

As for taking MPH "right", the rule for wisely using ADHD medication is that you use the lowest dose you can get away with. The clinical literature says that at appropriate doses, tolerance is not a concern, and it's right. However, when overdosing, tolerance certainly appears, and it may take days or weeks of total abstinence from stimulants before it disappears and MPH can be resumed at a more reasonable dose.

10mg d-MPH per day is perfectly fine. (As a reminder, 20mg of MPH contains 10mg of d-MPH.)

In doses from 10mg up to around 30-40mg per day, MPH has neuroprotective properties. It enhances vesicular uptake of dopamine from the cytoplasm, which decreases neurons' intracellular exposure to harmful dopamine metabolites like DOPAC.

If someone is taking enough MPH to experience significant appetite suppression, compulsive or otherwise unusual behaviors, negative personality changes, or significant "rebound" or withdrawal symptoms as the dose wears off, that's too much. It's hard to give an exact dosage amount that's "too much", because each person is unique. That's why it's best to define overdosage by the presence of significant side effects.

[FocusPocus]

Could you tell me how would one start on this combination?

The memantine dosage starting guide says you have to take 5mg for the 1st week or so, increase to 5mg twice daily for a week, and then increase to 10mg in the morning and 5mg evening. When does one start with Ritalin? After 3 weeks on memantine?

I would really appreciate any suggestions. Confused here.

[ocean.soul]

You should take up to 20mg, starting with 5mg for the first week and increasing the dosage each week.... In my personal experience, I did not find any benefit from memantine...
I even think that memantine had a bad effect in my short memory...

[FocusPocus]

Thanks a lot for the reply, man!
So i can use Ritalin even with the 5mg memantine and i need not wait for the memantine to build up, right?

Yea i read about the memory loss side effect, but didnt that go away with prolonged use?

Apparently, the initial brainfog and memory problems are due to inhibition of Nicotinic Acetyl Choline receptors, which is done by memantine. But these receptors upregulate with prolonged use leading to better memory! I mean this is the rationale for it being an alzheimers drug, right?

How long did you try it for?

[ocean.soul]

Yes, I know that memantine should improve memory, but it simply was not the case here...
I took memantine for 2 consecutive months.

[FocusPocus]

damn! thanks for the headsup man. ill keep that in mind, not to put too much hopes on it.

I hope it atleast helps in preventing methylphenidate tolerance.

Sorry to deviate from the topic but,
I was thinking of using galantamine for the memory side effect of memantine. Did you ever happen to use it?

[ocean.soul]

Any updates?? how are you now??

[oscerans]

Any updates?? how are you now??

would be nice to have an update