4019 replies to this topic

[eno]

A cheaper way to get hydrogen water may be diluting food grade hydrogen peroxide in a glass of water.

 

Why do you think this would produce hydrogen?

[mettmett]

I thought the point of h2o2 was to produce oxygen when consumed since it has the extra molecule of oxygen attached
I thought the point of h2o2 was to produce oxygen when consumed since it has the extra molecule of oxygen attached

[BigPapaChakra]

That appears to be one of the mechanisms of action, though some argue it is not the only one, it's just the one many people get caught up with because of all the "alkaline diet" promoters, and things of that sort.

 

Formation and reduction of a 'peroxy' intermediate of cytochrome c oxidase by hydrogen peroxide

 

"In the presence of micromolar concentrations of H202, ferric cytochrome c oxidase forms a stable complex characterized by an increased absorption intensity at 606-607nm with a weaker absorption band in the 560-580nm region. Higher (millimolar) concentrations of H202 result in an enzyme exhibiting a Soret band at 427nm and an a-band of increased intensity in the 589-610nm region. 2. Addition of H202 to ferric cytochrome c oxidase in the presence of cyanide results in absorbance increases at 444nm and 605 nm. These changes are not seen if H202 is added to the cyanide complex of the ferric enzyme. 3. The results support the idea that direct reaction of H202 with ferric cytochrome a3 produces a 'peroxy' intermediate that is susceptible to further reduction by H202 at higher peroxide concentrations. Electron flow through cytochrome a is not involved, and the final product of the reaction is the so-called 'pulsed' or 'oxygenated' ferric form of the enzyme."

 

 

 

 

[lostfalco]

Thanks Lostfalco again for finding this great noot idea.  

 

I have been looking at things like ionized water before but couldn't find any good research to back the claims for this "special" water.  Now searching hydrogen-rich water I can find some very interesting studies.  I am ordering a magnesium stick as well to test this.

 

No problem, Makiavel. Thanks for all the abstracts! It's a surprisingly well studied substance considering how unknown it is here in the States. Which stick did you decide to go with?

[lostfalco]

ok so i've had this water using this magnesium rod: " http://www.amazon.co...s=magnesium rod " three different times now. 

 

the first time i used bottled deer park water and let it sit for probably 20 minutes and the taste wasnt an issue.  The second time I used the same bottled water and let it sit for ~4hours and that was when it tasted very metallic and it upset my stomach.I just now did it for a third time using distilled water and let it sit for 5 minutes.  this taste fine, and definetly different from plain distilled water. 

 

The very first time after I drank it, i listened to some instrumentals and did some freestyling/singing and I felt like it was in the zone.  Things were flowing and I had some decent lines.  Those ones where you sit back and think "damn did i just come up with that???"  I recorded the freestyles too to add extra "pressure".  Because for me its different making up stuff to just myself than it is freestyling and knowing that I will hear my mistakes on the recording.  Anyways what I was trying to say is i felt more creative and clear headed after consuming the very first glass.  i'll update if it does anything for me this time.

Thanks for the update, mettmett. So it sounds like so far so good?

 

I'm coming up on two weeks now with the generator and I am really liking this stuff. I'm drinking about 2L per day and I feel very clear headed. I'm currently trying out different waters with it to see if I notice any differences. I'll keep you guys updated. 

[BigPapaChakra]

 

ok so i've had this water using this magnesium rod: " http://www.amazon.co...s=magnesium rod " three different times now. 

 

the first time i used bottled deer park water and let it sit for probably 20 minutes and the taste wasnt an issue.  The second time I used the same bottled water and let it sit for ~4hours and that was when it tasted very metallic and it upset my stomach.I just now did it for a third time using distilled water and let it sit for 5 minutes.  this taste fine, and definetly different from plain distilled water. 

 

The very first time after I drank it, i listened to some instrumentals and did some freestyling/singing and I felt like it was in the zone.  Things were flowing and I had some decent lines.  Those ones where you sit back and think "damn did i just come up with that???"  I recorded the freestyles too to add extra "pressure".  Because for me its different making up stuff to just myself than it is freestyling and knowing that I will hear my mistakes on the recording.  Anyways what I was trying to say is i felt more creative and clear headed after consuming the very first glass.  i'll update if it does anything for me this time.

Thanks for the update, mettmett. So it sounds like so far so good?

 

I'm coming up on two weeks now with the generator and I am really liking this stuff. I'm drinking about 2L per day and I feel very clear headed. I'm currently trying out different waters with it to see if I notice any differences. I'll keep you guys updated. 

 

Hey Falco, hope you don't mind if I ask you a couple questions.

 

1. Do you space your consumption of H2 from LLLT? I know that people have found, or at least hypothesized, that they need to separate when they do LLLT and when they take certain supplements or drugs. I'm primarily wondering because I had a terrible experience with LLLT+aspirin very close to each other, and am basically worried about the potential of anything acting as a photosensitizer, lol.

 

2. Would you be able to, when you have time of course, elaborate on the 'clear headed' sensation? Is it distinct from the clear headedness and mental endurance effects of LLLT? Is it nootropic-like? Are there any other benefits you've noticed, even if subtle (less need for sleep, improved mood, etc)?

 

Thanks! 

[lostfalco]

Hey Falco, hope you don't mind if I ask you a couple questions.

 

 

 

1. Do you space your consumption of H2 from LLLT? I know that people have found, or at least hypothesized, that they need to separate when they do LLLT and when they take certain supplements or drugs. I'm primarily wondering because I had a terrible experience with LLLT+aspirin very close to each other, and am basically worried about the potential of anything acting as a photosensitizer, lol.

 

2. Would you be able to, when you have time of course, elaborate on the 'clear headed' sensation? Is it distinct from the clear headedness and mental endurance effects of LLLT? Is it nootropic-like? Are there any other benefits you've noticed, even if subtle (less need for sleep, improved mood, etc)?

 

Thanks! 

 

No problem, Papa. 

 

1. I haven't spaced the two and I haven't noticed any problems so far. I'm sorry to hear about the aspirin...what do you think the interaction was there?

 

2. I used 'clearheaded' to distinguish it from 'stimulatory'. It's not really stimulating at all. The best way to describe it for me is 'removal of impedances' or 'complete lack of brain fog'. It is as though I have extremely quick and complete access to everything in my head. So...it is somewhat similar to LLLT in that regard. I haven't noticed an increase in mental endurance like I get with LLLT (but, of course, I'm still using LLLT so confounders abound. ha). I would (very) tentatively say improved mood and slightly less need for sleep but I'll have to get back to you on that. 

[lostfalco]

Another extremely interesting article on molecular hydrogen. 

 

Free Full-text: http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3680337/

 

Med Gas Res. 2013 Jun 6;3(1):11. doi: 10.1186/2045-9912-3-11.

Molecular hydrogen: an overview of its neurobiological effects and therapeutic potential for bipolar disorder and schizophrenia.

Ghanizadeh A1, Berk M.

Author information

Abstract

Hydrogen gas is a bioactive molecule that has a diversity of effects, including anti-apoptotic, anti-inflammatory and anti-oxidative properties; these overlap with the process of neuroprogression in major psychiatric disorders. Specifically, both bipolar disorder and schizophrenia are associated with increased oxidative and inflammatory stress. Moreover, lithium which is commonly administered for treating bipolar disorder has effects on oxidative stress and apoptotic pathways, as do valproate and some atypical antipsychotics for treating schizophrenia. Molecular hydrogen has been studied pre-clinically in animal models for the treatment of some medical conditions including hypoxia and neurodegenerative disorders, and there are intriguing clinical findings in neurological disorders including Parkinson's disease. Therefore, it is hypothesized that administration of hydrogen molecule may have potential as a novel therapy for bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, and other concurrent disorders characterized by oxidative, inflammatory and apoptotic dysregulation.

 

 

Edited by lostfalco, 10 October 2014 - 02:47 AM.

[BigPapaChakra]

Falco, do you know if it's possible (at home), and if so, are you going to try to administer H2 in different ways? 

 

The study above indicates that, although H2 containing water undoubtedly has very broad, beneficial effects, it may not have nearly enough H2, or may not last in the body for long enough time, to live up to its full potential. I know that it can be used as a medical gas, saline, as a hydrogen bath, intravenous, and I think even I.M. (and from all that, I don't see why one couldn't use it as an enema and use it in various other ways, too). 

 

I'm looking at some of the studies that have been posted, and that magnesium rod/stick truly looks like a viable method to test the waters of H2, so to speak. Though, I truthfully just wanna get the machine your using, just to make sure I'm definitely getting the H2 into the water, lol. I think lactulose increases H2 in the gut, so I may try that. 

[lostfalco]

Falco, do you know if it's possible (at home), and if so, are you going to try to administer H2 in different ways? 

 

The study above indicates that, although H2 containing water undoubtedly has very broad, beneficial effects, it may not have nearly enough H2, or may not last in the body for long enough time, to live up to its full potential. I know that it can be used as a medical gas, saline, as a hydrogen bath, intravenous, and I think even I.M. (and from all that, I don't see why one couldn't use it as an enema and use it in various other ways, too). 

 

I'm looking at some of the studies that have been posted, and that magnesium rod/stick truly looks like a viable method to test the waters of H2, so to speak. Though, I truthfully just wanna get the machine your using, just to make sure I'm definitely getting the H2 into the water, lol. I think lactulose increases H2 in the gut, so I may try that. 

Yeah, I will definitely try different methods. I viewed buying the generator as analogous to buying the Vetrolaser. Start off with something that will almost certainly work and, if it does, then find ways to make it cheap and affordable for everyone. I think that some of the higher quality sticks are likely to be good options and I also think that there has to be a way to get ahold of some high purity elemental magnesium powder.

[Makiavel]

I think that some of the higher quality sticks are likely to be good options and I also think that there has to be a way to get ahold of some high purity elemental magnesium powder.

 

 

I would advise against magnesium powder because of the potential risks.  It reacts much faster with acid and if you put too much in water it will not dissolve completely and the reaction will happen in the stomach.  With the sticks, the magnesium in water already reacted.

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=QT_QLnsOUec

[alpal]

anyone else gotten face twitches from lllt?

[Razor444]

anyone else gotten face twitches from lllt?

 

None whatsoever.

[Makiavel]

 

Thanks Lostfalco again for finding this great noot idea.  

 

I have been looking at things like ionized water before but couldn't find any good research to back the claims for this "special" water.  Now searching hydrogen-rich water I can find some very interesting studies.  I am ordering a magnesium stick as well to test this.

 

No problem, Makiavel. Thanks for all the abstracts! It's a surprisingly well studied substance considering how unknown it is here in the States. Which stick did you decide to go with?

 

 

I bought rods from Galliumsource, but I took the ones that turned 99.96% purity and have only 0.01% left of unknown metal.  I will update once I receive them.

[Joe Cohen]

LF, 

Thanks for the studies and exploration of this new enhancement avenue.

 

When I get the chance I will do more research.  Looks very interesting, though.

 

Keep us updated on the cheaper options and your experiences...  

[Joe Cohen]

[Joe Cohen]

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....?report=classic

Edited by Joe Cohen, 14 October 2014 - 03:37 PM.

[elitesagan]

 

2. I used 'clearheaded' to distinguish it from 'stimulatory'. It's not really stimulating at all. The best way to describe it for me is 'removal of impedances' or 'complete lack of brain fog'. It is as though I have extremely quick and complete access to everything in my head. So...it is somewhat similar to LLLT in that regard. I haven't noticed an increase in mental endurance like I get with LLLT (but, of course, I'm still using LLLT so confounders abound. ha). I would (very) tentatively say improved mood and slightly less need for sleep but I'll have to get back to you on that. 

 

 

Been drinking hydrogen water for almost two weeks now. I would also, tentatively report reduced ADD, and improved focus. Chronic inflammation is known to cause brain fog, ADD, ADHD, etc. Also I think it "detoxed" me in the first few days.

 

I'm interested in possibly synergy between LLLT and hydrogen.

 

- LLLT promotes ROS and (subsequently apparently; see paper below) inflammation (like NF-kb). Excess inflammation can turn into Chronic inflammation: as I understand it, stuff like inflammatory signalers NF-kb and IL-6 can damage cells, which just promotes yet more inflammation in a positive feedback loop. Is this what happens when Excessive administration of  LLLT gets into the "mental soreness" regime, vis a vis the analogy about excessive LLLT and muscle soreness? (Muscle soreness is itself from inflammation).

 

LLLT primarily promotes superoxide. Hydrogen kills the nasty hydroxyl radicals, but also increases superoxide dismutase which decreases superoxide. (thanks for posting the helpful figure Joe; also, see the front page of http://www.molecular...ninstitute.com/ - section How it Works, item 2) 

 

I really need to read this paper in detail:

http://www.plosone.o...al.pone.0022453

 

"Our results indicate that activation of NF-kB after 810 nm laser light is mediated via ROS generation. The fact that the addition of antioxidants abrogates the activation of NF-kB provides additional evidence that ROS are involved in the activation of NF-kB. There are both similarities and differences between the cellular effects of NIR laser and inhibitors that produce mitochondrial ROS by inhibiting complexes of the respiratory chain. Both laser and mitochondrial inhibitors produce ROS and activate NF-kB, but laser increases ATP while the inhibitors decrease ATP. The fact that antioxidants do not abrogate the ATP increase suggests that the action of light increases electron transport, which in the absence of antioxidants can cause increased electron leakage producing superoxide."

 

Seems to me that, ATP increased after LLLT even when antioxidants were used to suppress LLLT-induced superoxide.

 

So, LLLT + antioxidants like hydrogen, makes LLLT better/cleaner? Or is that more to the picture than ATP in the benefits of LLLT?

[Zenfood]

What brand are you guys using? Do you know how to get "high quality" for a decent price anywhere in Europe?
Can only find 35% solutions.

Would sublingual be superior to oral ones?
http://www.iherb.com...21&sr=null&ic=3

Edited by Zenfood, 15 October 2014 - 11:44 AM.

[elitesagan]

In some of my early LLLT trials, I went too quickly to 1 min. and higher per spot (w/ 48 LED unit). The result could be described as massive brain fog, probably caused by inflammation and chronic inflammation from LLLT ROS and NF-kB.

 

In theory a gradual increase in LLLT stimulates the body to increase it's baseline anti-inflammatory defenses. So Lostfalco and some others have successfully used LLLT in the 1:30 to 2:00 per spot range.

 

But, diet, genetics and other factors are important in any one individuals ability to fight chronic inflammation. Which may be why some people have had a mediocre response and brain fog at higher, more potentially effective LLLT doses.

 

The last couple times I did LLLT was at 1 min. per spot, while drinking H2 water, so I will keep doing this and report back.

[Joe Cohen]

LF,

I jumped on board with the hydrogen after reading some studies.  I took a risk and bought the Lourdes hydrogen machine.  I also bought like 15 hydrogen sticks.  I'm just afraid it's (Lourdes) going to break and I won't have anyone to call to fix it.

Anyway, I found this while researching something else.....You'd think this picture was designed by some alternative medicine guy...This Nature study calls pregnenolone "a fountain of youth."  I've been taking ~25 mg a day now...Plan to do an article when I get the chance.

http://www.nature.co...08-1383_F1.html

[lostfalco]

 

I think that some of the higher quality sticks are likely to be good options and I also think that there has to be a way to get ahold of some high purity elemental magnesium powder.

 

 

I would advise against magnesium powder because of the potential risks.  It reacts much faster with acid and if you put too much in water it will not dissolve completely and the reaction will happen in the stomach.  With the sticks, the magnesium in water already reacted.

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=QT_QLnsOUec

 

Thanks, Makiavel. I'll definitely look into it more when I start experimenting with cheaper options. Some of the supplements actually attempt to create hydrogen through a reaction with stomach acid (iirc). Have you looked into any of those yet?

Edited by lostfalco, 15 October 2014 - 11:22 PM.

[lostfalco]

anyone else gotten face twitches from lllt?

Hey alpal, I remember rc987 mentioned this last October. http://www.longecity...-38#entry615752

 

Other than that, I haven't heard of too many people experiencing this. I know that I haven't noticed it for myself. Does it happen right after you laser? 

[lostfalco]

 

 

Thanks Lostfalco again for finding this great noot idea.  

 

I have been looking at things like ionized water before but couldn't find any good research to back the claims for this "special" water.  Now searching hydrogen-rich water I can find some very interesting studies.  I am ordering a magnesium stick as well to test this.

 

No problem, Makiavel. Thanks for all the abstracts! It's a surprisingly well studied substance considering how unknown it is here in the States. Which stick did you decide to go with?

 

 

I bought rods from Galliumsource, but I took the ones that turned 99.96% purity and have only 0.01% left of unknown metal.  I will update once I receive them.

 

Sounds good, man. Let us know how it works for you. 

[lostfalco]

LF, 

Thanks for the studies and exploration of this new enhancement avenue.

 

When I get the chance I will do more research.  Looks very interesting, though.

 

Keep us updated on the cheaper options and your experiences...  

No problem, Joe. I had a feeling you might find it interesting. It's pretty much right in your wheelhouse as an antioxidant/anti-inflammatory. 

Edited by lostfalco, 16 October 2014 - 12:38 AM.

[lostfalco]

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....?report=classic

Nice find, man. This is an excellent summary study. I'd definitely recommend that everyone check it out if you guys have the time. 

[alpal]

 

anyone else gotten face twitches from lllt?

Hey alpal, I remember rc987 mentioned this last October. http://www.longecity...-38#entry615752

 

Other than that, I haven't heard of too many people experiencing this. I know that I haven't noticed it for myself. Does it happen right after you laser? 

 

 

hmm, I got it in the same place as that guy. I had it for like 2 days. It happened after one relatively long session (3.5min ish). 

[lostfalco]

 

 

2. I used 'clearheaded' to distinguish it from 'stimulatory'. It's not really stimulating at all. The best way to describe it for me is 'removal of impedances' or 'complete lack of brain fog'. It is as though I have extremely quick and complete access to everything in my head. So...it is somewhat similar to LLLT in that regard. I haven't noticed an increase in mental endurance like I get with LLLT (but, of course, I'm still using LLLT so confounders abound. ha). I would (very) tentatively say improved mood and slightly less need for sleep but I'll have to get back to you on that. 

 

 

Been drinking hydrogen water for almost two weeks now. I would also, tentatively report reduced ADD, and improved focus. Chronic inflammation is known to cause brain fog, ADD, ADHD, etc. Also I think it "detoxed" me in the first few days.

 

I'm interested in possibly synergy between LLLT and hydrogen.

 

- LLLT promotes ROS and (subsequently apparently; see paper below) inflammation (like NF-kb). Excess inflammation can turn into Chronic inflammation: as I understand it, stuff like inflammatory signalers NF-kb and IL-6 can damage cells, which just promotes yet more inflammation in a positive feedback loop. Is this what happens when Excessive administration of  LLLT gets into the "mental soreness" regime, vis a vis the analogy about excessive LLLT and muscle soreness? (Muscle soreness is itself from inflammation).

 

LLLT primarily promotes superoxide. Hydrogen kills the nasty hydroxyl radicals, but also increases superoxide dismutase which decreases superoxide. (thanks for posting the helpful figure Joe; also, see the front page of http://www.molecular...ninstitute.com/ - section How it Works, item 2) 

 

I really need to read this paper in detail:

http://www.plosone.o...al.pone.0022453

 

"Our results indicate that activation of NF-kB after 810 nm laser light is mediated via ROS generation. The fact that the addition of antioxidants abrogates the activation of NF-kB provides additional evidence that ROS are involved in the activation of NF-kB. There are both similarities and differences between the cellular effects of NIR laser and inhibitors that produce mitochondrial ROS by inhibiting complexes of the respiratory chain. Both laser and mitochondrial inhibitors produce ROS and activate NF-kB, but laser increases ATP while the inhibitors decrease ATP. The fact that antioxidants do not abrogate the ATP increase suggests that the action of light increases electron transport, which in the absence of antioxidants can cause increased electron leakage producing superoxide."

 

Seems to me that, ATP increased after LLLT even when antioxidants were used to suppress LLLT-induced superoxide.

 

So, LLLT + antioxidants like hydrogen, makes LLLT better/cleaner? Or is that more to the picture than ATP in the benefits of LLLT?

 

Very cool, elite. Thanks for reporting back! That sounds pretty much like my experience so far as well. What kind of water are you using?

 

LLLTs mechanism/s is/are still somewhat unknown. There are a number of things that happen simultaneously and then successively and it's not entirely clear at this point if it's one or some combo of things doing the heavy lifting. Thankfully, I think we are going to see a lot more experiments in the coming years and hopefully we can get it sorted out. I was pretty encouraged to see James Carroll of Thor Laser   http://www.thorlaser.com  speak at the United Nations Global Health Impact Forum. I think there are A LOT of football players, boxers, etc. who should give this a try as a treatment for CTE. 

Edited by lostfalco, 16 October 2014 - 12:13 AM.

[lostfalco]

What brand are you guys using? Do you know how to get "high quality" for a decent price anywhere in Europe?
Can only find 35% solutions.

Would sublingual be superior to oral ones?
http://www.iherb.com...21&sr=null&ic=3

Hey Zenfood, we are currently testing out molecular hydrogen using:

 

1. http://www.ebay.com/...=item2c8ce9c7b9

OR

2. http://www.amazon.co...uct_top?ie=UTF8

OR

3. http://www.amazon.co...s=magnesium rod

OR

4. http://www.amazon.co...aw/d/B000Y30ESQ

OR

5. some other things I haven't listed. =)

Edited by lostfalco, 16 October 2014 - 01:17 AM.

[lostfalco]

 

LF,

I jumped on board with the hydrogen after reading some studies.  I took a risk and bought the Lourdes hydrogen machine.  I also bought like 15 hydrogen sticks.  I'm just afraid it's (Lourdes) going to break and I won't have anyone to call to fix it.

Anyway, I found this while researching something else.....You'd think this picture was designed by some alternative medicine guy...This Nature study calls pregnenolone "a fountain of youth."  I've been taking ~25 mg a day now...Plan to do an article when I get the chance.

http://www.nature.co...08-1383_F1.html

 

Holy crap, that's a lot of hydrogen sticks! Did you just buy every single one on Amazon? ha Really looking forward to your feedback on this so hopefully we can recommend some effective but inexpensive options for everyone. 

 

Looking forward to your Pregnenolone article! I'm still taking it as well. 

 

For those of you who haven't seen Joe's articles on LLLT and PQQ, I'd def recommend checking 'em out if you get a chance. 

 

http://selfhacked.co...review-of-lllt/

http://selfhacked.co.../11/pqq-review/

Edited by lostfalco, 16 October 2014 - 01:24 AM.