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Muscle twitches after Piracetam use?

piracetam muscle twitches inositol acetylcholine

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#1 tea76

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 01:03 PM


Hi everyone,

In January this year I tried a regimen of Piracetam, and have since experienced muscle twitches.

My experiment with Piracetam went on for about one month, and during the time I tried to find my "optimal dose" by doing anything between 800 mg - 4800 mg per day. Since I never really found that Piracetam worked for me, I quit cold turkey after my package had run out, towards the end I did about 1600 mg per day before quitting.

A few days into this regimen, I started getting more and more muscle twitches, that to this day (five months later) have persisted - happening almost constantly throughout the day at different places on the body. The spots seem to be pretty random, although I recognise that some of them are more common than others; especially my left thigh.

The twitches aren't violent in any way, they're just kinda normal "twitches" that anyone would have, except the frequency and duration has increased a lot. For instance, on my left thigh, multiple times per day I will have a period where a certain muscle will do quick "bubbles" of twitching constantly, which will go on and off for maybe 10 minutes and then stop. And perhaps resume a few hours later. And between those hours I will have random twitches and short "bubblings" at other places that lasts for about 0.5 - 1 seconds.

The first time I recall the the twitches actually starting was on the second day of trying out Piracetam; I took 1600 mg of Piracetam, 300 mg of AlphaGPC and 50 mg of caffeine. This made me light-headed and a bit nervous, as well as got my nose twitching intensely for a few days. After that I havn't touched AlphaGPC or caffeine again, but the twitches have continued on other parts of the body.

Also, last month, I also had a bit of a traumatic incident where two nightclub bouncers grabbed me (thinking I had done something I hadn't), and forced me up against a wall. The next day, I started having a twitching in my right eyelid for about a week before it resided.

My question is: Can these twitches be related to beginning using Piracetam, and/or quitting cold turkey (even though I quit five months ago)? Even though the twitches aren't seizure-like or violent, should I be concerned and perhaps visit a neurologist?

I havn't changed any other routines in my life during this period, such as diet or exercise. I'm not stressed out at the moment, nor use caffeine or nicotine or alcohol (just drinks once a month).

Thank you for any help.


Edited by YOLF, 03 June 2016 - 07:15 PM.


#2 Heh

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 02:43 PM

I dunno, maybe you need magnesium.

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#3 renfr

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 03:12 PM

Does it look like fasciculations or chorea? Piracetam can be excitotoxic in high doses or combined with too much caffeine or calcium.
Take some magnesium as well as some potassium, if it doesn't resolve then it's probably going to be permanent unless you start limiting oxidative damage before it gets worse.
If what you call "bubbles" are fasciculations, stop piracetam at once and go see a doctor this is a very serious condition.

Edited by renfr, 20 May 2013 - 03:14 PM.


#4 peakplasma

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 03:36 PM

I know exactly what you mean and only Piracetam seems to cause this to me.

I get multiple bubble-like sequences of 3-5 rhythmic muscle twitches mostly on my arms and legs at night after a day of piracetam use. It usually subsides after taking magnesium and/or choline supplements.

I checked with my doctor and he said it is benign and nothing to worry about but it could be indicative of a serious condition so get it checked out just in case.

#5 renfr

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 04:00 PM

Piracetam increases synaptic calcium influx if I'm not wrong, this could cause a central hyperexcitability and a magnesium/potassium deficiency so that should resolve with proper supplementation.
If it was BFS (benign fasciculation syndrome) I guess it would have already been present before even trying out piracetam so I tend more to think that it's a mineral deficiency in the best case.
In the worst case your stack has damaged motor neurons hence the twitching, if it doesn't stop right away after stopping and correcting mineral deficiencies you should worry, motor neuron damage is not something to be taken with a grain of salt.
Piracetam has been largely branded as safe but like any other drug it isn't as safe as we might think, it depends of the individual and so many other factors that could make piracetam turn rogue.


#6 peakplasma

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 04:31 PM

It's pretty unlikely to be neuronal damage but there is a really small chance it is something more serious.

Fasciculations are one of the most common reported symptoms. People get them from hot weather, stress, tired muscles, not enough sleep, hunger, thirst, too much sugar, not enough sugar, salty foods, caffeine, cold weather, vegetarian diet, orgasm, telling lies, hiding secrets, getting embarassed, falling in love, etc.

#7 tea76

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 08:13 PM

Does it look like fasciculations or chorea? Piracetam can be excitotoxic in high doses or combined with too much caffeine or calcium.


First of all, thank you very much for addressing this thread so quickly.

The twitches I've had seem to be similar to fasciculations as seen in this video:
(His seem to be slightly more intense but it's basically the very same thing).

This gif is very similar to the twitches I had in my eyelid for a week after the nightclub incident: http://upload.wikime...6/Bfs_spasm.gif
 

Take some magnesium as well as some potassium, if it doesn't resolve then it's probably going to be permanent unless you start limiting oxidative damage before it gets worse.
If what you call "bubbles" are fasciculations, stop piracetam at once and go see a doctor this is a very serious condition.


I will go and see a doctor tomorrow. But when you say "limiting oxidative damage before it gets worse", what does that mean specifically? Is there even anything I can do now, since it's several months since I quit Piracetam? I will try and take some magnesium pills right away and see if it helps.

I don't think I have a magnesium deficiency since I take magnesium supplements from time to time, although I drink quite a lot of milk (calcium). Potassium deficiency could be a possibility although pretty unlikely.

Since this started when I introduced Piracetam I am definitely suspecting that this is the culprit. Even though I quit the Piracetam five months ago, the fasciculations have continued.


Edited by YOLF, 03 June 2016 - 07:16 PM.


#8 renfr

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 09:23 PM

Yes that's definetely a fasciculation.

I will go and see a doctor tomorrow. But when you say "limiting oxidative damage before it gets worse", what does that mean specifically? Is there even anything I can do now, since it's several months since I quit Piracetam? I will try and take some magnesium pills right away and see if it helps.

Oh wait I didn't read the "(five months later)", you should indeed definetely check, if you have a normal balanced diet there's no reason that it keeps going on, the magnesium deficiency should have been resolved by now.
Usually a deficiency of magnesium will rather demonstrate myoclonic jerks than fasciculations.
Indeed good idea that you check that with your doctor. Calcium antagonizes magnesium and potassium but I don't think drinking milk will cause fasciculations even a lot.
When I was saying limiting oxidative damage I was talking about using antioxidants such as vitamin C or NAC to limit motor neuron damage (if that is the case) or excitotoxicity.

Consultation is urgent, benign fasciculation syndrome doesn't get worse for +95% of people with this syndrome, not being a scaremonger but prolonged fasciculations will lead to muscle atrophy and dystrophy.

Good luck.

Edited by renfr, 20 May 2013 - 09:24 PM.


#9 brainslugged

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 10:50 PM

Was piracetam the ONLY thing you took?

You didn't take 5HTP around the same time? You didn't take anything at the nightclub?

I got similar twitches under my left eye for about a month or so after taking 5HTP with piracetam and having an adverse reaction.

It did get better over time, though and eventually went away. If they don't seem to be getting better, I would go to the doctor, and I might even go even if they are slowly getting better because it has been a long time now.

Also, if you are regularly taking pepto, I would recommend not to. I was taking it almost daily as a preventative measure for upset stomach for about 3 or 4 months, and started kinda having twitches (in my legs, a different kind, though).

#10 tea76

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 04:40 AM

Was piracetam the ONLY thing you took?

You didn't take 5HTP around the same time? You didn't take anything at the nightclub?

I got similar twitches under my left eye for about a month or so after taking 5HTP with piracetam and having an adverse reaction.

It did get better over time, though and eventually went away. If they don't seem to be getting better, I would go to the doctor, and I might even go even if they are slowly getting better because it has been a long time now.

Also, if you are regularly taking pepto, I would recommend not to. I was taking it almost daily as a preventative measure for upset stomach for about 3 or 4 months, and started kinda having twitches (in my legs, a different kind, though).


I did not really take anything out of the ordinary except for Piracetam, for which I at most tried to follow the "4.8 grams per dosage" recommendation. So the largest dosage I took for a few days in row was 9.6 grams, which doesn't seem to be uncommon on this forum. But this was only for a few days, toward the end of the one-month testing period I went down to 1600 mg/dose and finally 800 mg/dose.

Besides Piracetam I took Alpha GPC à 300 mg a few times, and also Citicholine à 300 mg a few times, although not that often. I also tried Inositol 600 mg pills a few times (like 2-3 times) but did not continue. I also took Omega 3 capsules at the time regularly (still do, about 1000 mg/day).

But to summarise, no I did not do any other drugs, and I don't have an history with any either.
Still having problems with the twitches that are going on almost constantly throughout the day all over the body :(


Edited by YOLF, 03 June 2016 - 07:16 PM.


#11 renfr

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 08:17 AM

Tell us how it goes with the doctor.
4.8g is the maximum recommended dosage but it doesn't necessarily fit for everyone, some people are chemically different and may react very well or very bad to high doses of piracetam.
There's a guy on this forum who took piracetam and he ended up with severe cognitive impairment.

#12 brainslugged

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 08:45 AM

 

 

I did not really take anything out of the ordinary except for Piracetam, for which I at most tried to follow the "4.8 grams per dosage" recommendation. So the largest dosage I took for a few days in row was 9.6 grams, which doesn't seem to be uncommon on this forum. But this was only for a few days, toward the end of the one-month testing period I went down to 1600 mg/dose and finally 800 mg/dose.

Besides Piracetam I took Alpha GPC à 300 mg a few times, and also Citicholine à 300 mg a few times, although not that often. I also tried Inositol 600 mg pills a few times (like 2-3 times) but did not continue. I also took Omega 3 capsules at the time regularly (still do, about 1000 mg/day).

But to summarise, no I did not do any other drugs, and I don't have an history with any either.
Still having problems with the twitches that are going on almost constantly throughout the day all over the body :(

 

Hmm. I have no idea. I would say inositol, but that would be a HUGE stretch at only 600mg and considering that it would have to be converted to serotonin so I am sure your body wouldn't convert it to enough to cause spasms, especially at 600mg which is a dietary dose. Even with my hatred for inositol, I am not going to make that big of a leap.
 

There's a guy on this forum who took piracetam and he ended up with severe cognitive impairment.


What? Who?


Edited by YOLF, 03 June 2016 - 07:17 PM.


#13 renfr

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 10:01 AM

I did not really take anything out of the ordinary except for Piracetam, for which I at most tried to follow the "4.8 grams per dosage" recommendation. So the largest dosage I took for a few days in row was 9.6 grams, which doesn't seem to be uncommon on this forum. But this was only for a few days, toward the end of the one-month testing period I went down to 1600 mg/dose and finally 800 mg/dose.

Besides Piracetam I took Alpha GPC à 300 mg a few times, and also Citicholine à 300 mg a few times, although not that often. I also tried Inositol 600 mg pills a few times (like 2-3 times) but did not continue. I also took Omega 3 capsules at the time regularly (still do, about 1000 mg/day).

But to summarise, no I did not do any other drugs, and I don't have an history with any either.
Still having problems with the twitches that are going on almost constantly throughout the day all over the body :(

Hmm. I have no idea. I would say inositol, but that would be a HUGE stretch at only 600mg and considering that it would have to be converted to serotonin so I am sure your body wouldn't convert it to enough to cause spasms, especially at 600mg which is a dietary dose. Even with my hatred for inositol, I am not going to make that big of a leap.

There's a guy on this forum who took piracetam and he ended up with severe cognitive impairment.

What? Who?

Nootropix.

When i took multi vit contain additional calcium ,those day i took normal my daily piracetam about 400mg ,i go party with my friends ,my brain just fried that day

i have lost friends and many thing .

My concentration never like before ,daily function is troublesome .

Anyone else can proof this ? try repeat my steps .


I think your brain must peak ,mean been on piracetam for a while and have massive of glutamate receptors up ,and repeat my step will see very effective how very little MSG can fry your brain while on piracetam .

But I think this was potentiated by his calcium intake, plus he's asian and you know how much glutamate they put in their food.
I even remember a thread saying MSG + calcium + piracetam would be the perfect stack, to me it's rather the fastest way to fry your brain cells through massive excitotoxicity.

It's not impossible that his fasciculations are due to motor neuron excitotoxicity, piracetam is known to enhance motor function quite a lot but let's see what the doctor says afterall it could just be a deficiency or BFS.

Edited by YOLF, 03 June 2016 - 07:19 PM.


#14 tea76

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 11:12 AM

I've now been to the doctor's and taken a few blood tests to rule out mineral deficiencies and thyroid problems. Results will be coming within the next week.

I've also been forwarded to a neurologist, but don't know yet when they will see me.

The doctor wasn't familiar with Piracetam and I doubt the neurologists will be very much more knowledgeable so I guess it's on me to try to explain how it works.

I'll post any personal developments or general developments in this thread, since I imagine this might be interesting information for the nootropic community. Feel free to discuss the subject here.


BTW, one theory I've had is that since Piracetam is supposed to "upgrade" the acetylcholine receptors, can it be that I have too much acetylcholine in my body (which could potentially lead to muscle twitches), or perhaps too little acetylcholinesterase? I'm a beginner in this subject so I don't really have anything to back this up besides some Google search top results for "Acetylcholine + muscle twitches".


Edited by YOLF, 04 June 2016 - 11:18 PM.


#15 tea76

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 08:58 AM

Consultation is urgent, benign fasciculation syndrome doesn't get worse for +95% of people with this syndrome, not being a scaremonger but prolonged fasciculations will lead to muscle atrophy and dystrophy.


By this, do you mean that the fasciculations themselves will lead to atrophy and dystrophy?
(But for 95% it doesn't - if so why? Because they stop or because fasciculations does not always lead to atrophy/dystrophy?)

#16 renfr

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 09:18 AM

I've now been to the doctor's and taken a few blood tests to rule out mineral deficiencies and thyroid problems. Results will be coming within the next week.

I've also been forwarded to a neurologist, but don't know yet when they will see me.

The doctor wasn't familiar with Piracetam and I doubt the neurologists will be very much more knowledgeable so I guess it's on me to try to explain how it works.

I'll post any personal developments or general developments in this thread, since I imagine this might be interesting information for the nootropic community. Feel free to discuss the subject here.


BTW, one theory I've had is that since Piracetam is supposed to "upgrade" the acetylcholine receptors, can it be that I have too much acetylcholine in my body (which could potentially lead to muscle twitches), or perhaps too little acetylcholinesterase? I'm a beginner in this subject so I don't really have anything to back this up besides some Google search top results for "Acetylcholine + muscle twitches".

A neurologist will be able to do further testing and a EMG testing to see if there are deeper fasciculations which could mean a motor neurone disease such as ALS or an infection.
Piracetam does deplete choline but if your diet is an average diet there's no way choline deficiency would last so long, plus most of foods use lecithin as an emulsifier which is a source of phosphatidylcholine so choline deficiency is highly improbably. You could eat a couple of eggs and see what it does but I don't think you will get anything.
Do you have symptoms associated with high acetylcholine such as SLUDGE/DUMBBELLS?

The symptoms of a cholinergic toxidrome include bronchorrhea, confusion, defecation, diaphoresis, diarrhea, emesis, lacrimation, miosis, muscle fasciculations, salivation,seizures, urination, and weakness. Complications include bradycardia, hypothermia, and tachypnea. Substances that may cause this toxidrome include carbamates, mushrooms, and organophosphates.
Common mnemonics for organophosphate poisoning include the "killer B's" of bronchorrhea and bronchospasm because they are the leading cause of death,%5B4%5D and SLUDGE - Salivation, Lacrimation, Urination, Diarrhea, Gastrointestinal distress, and Emesis.%5B3%5D%5B4%5D
An alternative mnemonic is DUMBELLS - Diarrhea, Urination, Miosis, Bradycardia, Emesis, Lacrimation, Lethargy and Salivation


Consultation is urgent, benign fasciculation syndrome doesn't get worse for +95% of people with this syndrome, not being a scaremonger but prolonged fasciculations will lead to muscle atrophy and dystrophy.


By this, do you mean that the fasciculations themselves will lead to atrophy and dystrophy?
(But for 95% it doesn't - if so why? Because they stop or because fasciculations does not always lead to atrophy/dystrophy?)

the cause of BFS is difficult to explain, BFS doesn't lead to muscle atrophy but if these fasciculations aren't part of BFS but of a more serious conditions (such as ALS or MND) then it will eventually lead to atrophy either via hypotrophy (loss of muscle mass) or hypoplasia (loss of muscle cells).

Edited by YOLF, 03 June 2016 - 07:20 PM.


#17 renfr

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 09:24 AM

The first time I recall the the twitches actually starting was on the second day of trying out Piracetam; I took 1600 mg of Piracetam, 300 mg of AlphaGPC and 50 mg of caffeine. This made me light-headed and a bit nervous, as well as got my nose twitching intensely for a few days. After that I havn't touched AlphaGPC or caffeine again, but the twitches have continued on other parts of the body.

Also, last month, I also had a bit of a traumatic incident where two nightclub bouncers grabbed me (thinking I had done something I hadn't), and forced me up against a wall. The next day, I started having a twitching in my right eyelid for about a week before it resided.

The fasciculations could have had happened due to that traumatic event and piracetam has probably unleashed brain damage caused by this trauma. A concussion can lead to dramatic changes in neurotransmission and therefore could cause fasciculations.
Do you have any other symptoms that began with fasciculations? Do you have any difficulty breathing?

Also this could have been the result of an heavy metal intoxication and piracetam may be totally unrelated. There are so many possibilities, at least your neurologist will be able to discard the worst causes of these fasciculations (ALS and MND), I don't know what the blood test is about but if it is extensive it will reveal some kind of imbalance or an intoxication.

Edited by renfr, 22 May 2013 - 09:27 AM.

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#18 jly1986

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 12:12 PM

I have experienced similar twitching in both eyelids after a couple weeks of taking noopept (~10-100 mg/day) and lucidril (~100-500 mg/day). My eyelids would constantly twitch all day long. Not debilitative, actually rather amusing, but definitely abnormal. Also, joint aches, general muscle fatigue, dizziness, insomnia, and brain fuzziness.

After a couple more weeks (so, one full month of supplementation), each day of which I experienced these kinds of side effects, I decided to stop supplementing cold turkey, and this is the 5th day of my break. All the adverse symptoms have now gone away, so it does appear the noopept/lucidril were the culprits.

Nevertheless, I did enjoy other good effects from taking them, including clarity of mind, motivation boost, mental resolve, and improvements in memory and cognitive function.

In fact, even during my break, I'm still enjoying the positive afterglows, though somewhat attenuated. Strangely, I'm also experiencing a persistent, mild but quite noticeable medicinal taste / smell in my mouth / breath.

I'm looking forward to re-starting my regiment after a week break. Maybe smaller doses will help minimize the side effects. Hope to share more later. Any other helpful suggestions are appreciated. Thanks.

Edited by jly1986, 22 May 2013 - 12:24 PM.


#19 tea76

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 01:46 PM

The fasciculations could have had happened due to that traumatic event and piracetam has probably unleashed brain damage caused by this trauma. A concussion can lead to dramatic changes in neurotransmission and therefore could cause fasciculations.
Do you have any other symptoms that began with fasciculations? Do you have any difficulty breathing?


No difficulties breathing nor any SLUDGE/DUMBBELLS symptoms except fasciculations.

The "trauma" incident that happened was three months after quitting Piracetam. I already had some of fasciculations at this time, but it seems to have unleashed the eye twitch that persisted for a week afterwards. I did not have a concussion (or any other significant physical injury), just a stressful experience.

Also, I'm not sure, but I think the fasciculations actually are more frequent and more intense now than they were when I was actually using Piracetam.

This leads me to ask the question: How long are the effects of Piracetam actually "active" in the system?
I know that the effect of Piracetam is cumulative, is this due to an 'upgrade' of the AMPA and NMDA receptors, or do I in fact have a buildup of Piracetam in my blood system?

Also reading this thread with interest, albeit brief: http://www.longecity...not-neurotoxic/

Edited by YOLF, 03 June 2016 - 07:20 PM.


#20 brainslugged

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 03:46 PM

Nootropix.

When i took multi vit contain additional calcium ,those day i took normal my daily piracetam about 400mg ,i go party with my friends ,my brain just fried that day

i have lost friends and many thing .

My concentration never like before ,daily function is troublesome .

Anyone else can proof this ? try repeat my steps .


I think your brain must peak ,mean been on piracetam for a while and have massive of glutamate receptors up ,and repeat my step will see very effective how very little MSG can fry your brain while on piracetam .


With all due respect to Nootropix, I don't know if his story could be considered completely reliable or controlled. He lives in an area where food is heavily flavored with MSG and he has changed his mind about piracetam being harmful quite a few times. He also claims to have had a VERY positive initial reaction, so perhaps he was extremely sensitive to it, something that OP does not seem to be.

For the record, I have been on piracetam (every day~750mg/day) and oxiracetam (off and on, ~750mg/day) for the past 4 months and have eaten foods with massive amounts of MSG and been fine albeit a bit tired afterwards. I was on it for 6 months in a row and 4 months in a row last year and I eat American Chinese food (where the MSG is very noticeable) very often.

Piracetam is very neuroprotective. Although it is possible that he had an adverse reaction, it is very unlikely. There has never been a clinically recorded case of piractam being neurotoxic (except one with a patient with bipolar disorder, but it is unclear if the (mild) toxicity was due to the BP or the piracetam), and it has been used quite a bit in a clinical setting.

If his adverse reaction was to piracetam, it was an incredibly rare and unfortunate reaction.
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#21 renfr

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 04:30 PM



Nootropix.

When i took multi vit contain additional calcium ,those day i took normal my daily piracetam about 400mg ,i go party with my friends ,my brain just fried that day

i have lost friends and many thing .

My concentration never like before ,daily function is troublesome .

Anyone else can proof this ? try repeat my steps .


I think your brain must peak ,mean been on piracetam for a while and have massive of glutamate receptors up ,and repeat my step will see very effective how very little MSG can fry your brain while on piracetam .


With all due respect to Nootropix, I don't know if his story could be considered completely reliable or controlled. He lives in an area where food is heavily flavored with MSG and he has changed his mind about piracetam being harmful quite a few times. He also claims to have had a VERY positive initial reaction, so perhaps he was extremely sensitive to it, something that OP does not seem to be.

For the record, I have been on piracetam (every day~750mg/day) and oxiracetam (off and on, ~750mg/day) for the past 4 months and have eaten foods with massive amounts of MSG and been fine albeit a bit tired afterwards. I was on it for 6 months in a row and 4 months in a row last year and I eat American Chinese food (where the MSG is very noticeable) very often.

Piracetam is very neuroprotective. Although it is possible that he had an adverse reaction, it is very unlikely. There has never been a clinically recorded case of piractam being neurotoxic (except one with a patient with bipolar disorder, but it is unclear if the (mild) toxicity was due to the BP or the piracetam), and it has been used quite a bit in a clinical setting.

If his adverse reaction was to piracetam, it was an incredibly rare and unfortunate reaction.


Well I wasn't very convinced of his story in the beginning as well but when I read another member who got permanent brain fog from pramiracetam I could say that this isn't impossible.
Piracetam sure is neuroprotective for NMDA potentiation but it can turn rogue very easily if there is a glutamate flood. Piracetam + High dose of Calcium + High MSG intake is likely killer for a lot of people, if you add up exercise which increases glutamate levels you can very easily cause massive excitotoxicity.
The way he's talking corresponds to how victims of excitotoxicity express themselves (if that isn't the case then his english is totally wrecked) but the story is unclear as to drug use since it was a party he could have taken a drug that would have worsened the effects who knows...
But since I read that story with pramiracetam that isn't impossible, hopefully I personally never had that but I remember taking up to 10g and 10g at once was definetely too much as my brain felt really hot and exhausted.
I'm just saying that people shouldn't blindly believe in the definition of a nootropic coined by Dr. Corneliu Giurgea that says a nootropic has extremely low toxicity, from the reports even if it's not toxic for 99% of people it's not the kind of thing you can eat like sugar and be fine with it.


I have experienced similar twitching in both eyelids after a couple weeks of taking noopept (~10-100 mg/day) and lucidril (~100-500 mg/day). My eyelids would constantly twitch all day long. Not debilitative, actually rather amusing, but definitely abnormal. Also, joint aches, general muscle fatigue, dizziness, insomnia, and brain fuzziness.

After a couple more weeks (so, one full month of supplementation), each day of which I experienced these kinds of side effects, I decided to stop supplementing cold turkey, and this is the 5th day of my break. All the adverse symptoms have now gone away, so it does appear the noopept/lucidril were the culprits.

Nevertheless, I did enjoy other good effects from taking them, including clarity of mind, motivation boost, mental resolve, and improvements in memory and cognitive function.

In fact, even during my break, I'm still enjoying the positive afterglows, though somewhat attenuated. Strangely, I'm also experiencing a persistent, mild but quite noticeable medicinal taste / smell in my mouth / breath.

I'm looking forward to re-starting my regiment after a week break. Maybe smaller doses will help minimize the side effects. Hope to share more later. Any other helpful suggestions are appreciated. Thanks.


The fasciculations could have had happened due to that traumatic event and piracetam has probably unleashed brain damage caused by this trauma. A concussion can lead to dramatic changes in neurotransmission and therefore could cause fasciculations.
Do you have any other symptoms that began with fasciculations? Do you have any difficulty breathing?


No difficulties breathing nor any SLUDGE/DUMBBELLS symptoms except fasciculations.

The "trauma" incident that happened was three months after quitting Piracetam. I already had some of fasciculations at this time, but it seems to have unleashed the eye twitch that persisted for a week afterwards. I did not have a concussion (or any other significant physical injury), just a stressful experience.

Also, I'm not sure, but I think the fasciculations actually are more frequent and more intense now than they were when I was actually using Piracetam.

This leads me to ask the question: How long are the effects of Piracetam actually "active" in the system?
I know that the effect of Piracetam is cumulative, is this due to an 'upgrade' of the AMPA and NMDA receptors, or do I in fact have a buildup of Piracetam in my blood system?

Also reading this thread with interest, albeit brief: http://www.longecity...not-neurotoxic/

Well that could just be a mineral deficiency if you already had that even before the traumatic event, you say you take magnesium from time to time but how much exactly (elemental)?
Almost everyone is deficient in magnesium nowadays since most of it was filtered out from water and bread, we don't get as much as our ancestors did unless you supplement with it.
If that isn't magnesium it's probably potassium, eat 3-4 large bananas which contain 450 mg potassium each and if the symptoms subside then you know what's the problem, potassium is also something most people are deficient in. There's a few in bread, in french fries as well.

Where did you read that effects are cumulative? Don't you rather mean proportional? Usually everyone go back to baseline after piracetam clears out of your system, you might have long lasting changes if you learn a lot while using piracetam which could increase ability to form LTP but piracetam isn't active anymore once it leaves your system.
Piracetam doesn't touch to AMPA but to NMDA, it upregulates NMDA up to 20% then NMDA receptors are going back to baseline a few days after you quit.

Well that article does explain how piracetam acts, it stimulates calcium channels, that's a good thing for glutamate neurotransmission but this can cause severe excitotoxicity if you're magnesium deficient, take a calcium supplement (or a lot of milk) and take a lot of MSG.


Edited by YOLF, 04 June 2016 - 11:22 PM.


#22 tea76

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 08:50 AM

Hi again everyone!
Continuation on my personal narrative on this subject:

I just got back test results and pretty much all blood values they tested for, including thyroid, iron, magnesium, potassium and others showed good results well within the margins.

The doctor thought that all of this is psychological, like after some sort of trauma I've become conscious about the muscle twitches and this have made them continue. Although I find this pretty unlikely since I don't have a history at all with anxiety-related conditions or anything of the sort, it's a possibility since I've read online that pretty commonly there may be a psychological component to BFS, e.g. neurostudents being among those most often reporting BFS because they are aware of the dangers of ALS etc, in fact making fasciculations increase.

However, I do myself believe that this is related to Piracetam after all, and not psychological, so I have been forwarded to a neurologist to do some brain scans. This may happen after summer, so there may not be any more updates from me for a while.

Should my muscle twitches become worse or even go away, will I update here since this sort of information may be of interest to the nootropic community.

My advice to people starting to try out Piracetam is to be careful, it may not be as risk-free as is often stated on the Internet, and large doses such as the often cited 4800mg/dose or even 4800mg x 2 per day (the one I took at most) may be too much - different individuals may react much differently (as has already been pointed out in this thread).

#23 tea76

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 09:03 AM

Well I wasn't very convinced of his story in the beginning as well but when I read another member who got permanent brain fog from pramiracetam I could say that this isn't impossible.
Piracetam sure is neuroprotective for NMDA potentiation but it can turn rogue very easily if there is a glutamate flood. Piracetam + High dose of Calcium + High MSG intake is likely killer for a lot of people, if you add up exercise which increases glutamate levels you can very easily cause massive excitotoxicity.


This autumn I actually had quite a lot of soy (MSG) almost every day, although I think I stopped using soy maybe 3-4 weeks before I started using Piracetam. The reason for quitting soy was reading that it is an a estrogen emulator. Is it possible that I had high reserves of glutamate in my body? Otherwise my food is pretty MSG free consisting of mainly raw and cooked foods (no prefabs), and I was only frequently using soy for cooking during 6 months or so.

Piracetam I always took with a glass of whole milk, I think it would be fair to say that I probably increased my calcium intake during my Piracetam period.

Blood tests done six months prior to taking Piracetam show that my magnesium and potassium levels were good. For magnesium supplements, I occasionally take magnesium glycinate which is supposed to be a variant with relatively high bioavailability.
 

Where did you read that effects are cumulative? Don't you rather mean proportional? Usually everyone go back to baseline after piracetam clears out of your system, you might have long lasting changes if you learn a lot while using piracetam which could increase ability to form LTP but piracetam isn't active anymore once it leaves your system.
Piracetam doesn't touch to AMPA but to NMDA, it upregulates NMDA up to 20% then NMDA receptors are going back to baseline a few days after you quit.



I've read at various places on the Internet that Piracetam "is a cumulative substance" - however I'm not sure if they mean that the effects of Piracetam (i.e. LTP) are cumulative, or if they mean that the upgrade of receptors are cumulative. Apparently, excess Piracetam gets washed out quite quickly with the urine.

Example quote from: http://www.bluelight...m-MDMA-Worth-it (Post #18)



piracetam is a cumulative substance, meaning it needs to build up in your system for it to produce effects. Some have a very low threshold, others need to take it for a few days to feel the effects. You can "jumpstart" your preloading by dropping 3000-5000mgs (proportionate to body weight) as a "break through" dose - that in itself should be fun, as you will be very focused, emotionally "solid", have an increased appreciation for music, and might even notice some color intensification. To get the most out of it, you will either want to supplement choline, or better yet, eat foods rich in choline (like chicken). If I were to recommend anything, it'd be a break through dose 2 days before, 1/3 of that dose the day before, and 800mg on rolling day.



According to Wikipedia, Piracetam is a positive allosteric modulator of the AMPA receptor:

http://en.wikipedia....nisms_of_action


Edited by YOLF, 04 June 2016 - 11:23 PM.


#24 Cacheprint

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 06:50 PM

Tea76, I have had this problem before. I am definitely positive that it is the alpha GPC. As an experiment, keep taking Piracetam and stop with the choline supplements. Taking too much choline will lead to tense muscles.

Edited by YOLF, 03 June 2016 - 07:22 PM.


#25 meth_use_lah

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 09:45 PM

One of piracetams medical uses is for muscle twitches/spasms.

#26 tea76

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 10:29 AM

Tea76, I have had this problem before. I am definitely positive that it is the alpha GPC. As an experiment, keep taking Piracetam and stop with the choline supplements. Taking too much choline will lead to tense muscles.


Thanks for your reply.

I actually stopped taking both Piracetam and Alpha GPC more than six months ago. Still the twitches have continued.

I went to see a doctor a few weeks ago and asked to see a neurologist. Today I got word from the neurologist that they won't be able to see me. They are saying that the risks that I have ALS or MS are very minimal, and that it is unlikely that the doses of Piracetam that I took would create any residue effects.

However I don't really have any doubt in my mind that Piracetam is behind this.

Would appreciate any advice on how to get rid of the muscle twitches - if it's even possible...

Edited by YOLF, 03 June 2016 - 07:22 PM.


#27 renfr

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 01:51 PM

Ever tried potassium?

#28 MiltonFine

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 04:00 AM

That's one of the few symptoms of magnesium deficiency, but that could be coming from a lot of different factors (mineral deficiency or too much of some substances). I experienced this before and stopped my intake of any supplements and went on a natural and clean whole food diet. No stimulants or additional herbs. Maybe just 1-2 multivitamins a day and that's it and after a week of swimming and going to the gym, the twitching went away. Hope this helps.
Keep us updated :D

#29 tea76

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 12:19 AM

I tested my blood values for magnesium and potassium deficiencies and the results were fine.

I use an app called MyNetDiary every day now to make sure that I get the daily values of magnesium and potassium, and if it doesn't I use supplements to reach 100%. Unfortunately I havn't found any of these supplements to help with the twitches at all.

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#30 renfr

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 02:23 AM

I tested my blood values for magnesium and potassium deficiencies and the results were fine.

I use an app called MyNetDiary every day now to make sure that I get the daily values of magnesium and potassium, and if it doesn't I use supplements to reach 100%. Unfortunately I havn't found any of these supplements to help with the twitches at all.

do you have muscle weakness?

Edited by YOLF, 03 June 2016 - 07:22 PM.






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