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Brainrepair Topic

bdnf gdnf syaptic plasticity synaptogenesis ngf neurogenesis stroke

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#1 Flex

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 01:52 AM


Hi there,

I didnt saw any topic on Longecity where all the potentional "Brain-Repairers" were pooled.
So therefore, my suggestion is to collect as much as possible of them, to make it easier to find it for us and others.

If You share any knowledge, please write to a posted compound what it does.

Edited by Flex, 23 February 2014 - 02:21 AM.

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#2 Flex

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 02:04 AM

So let me start this:
Ashwagandha
Protective role of Ashwagandha leaf extract and its component withanone on scopolamine-induced changes in the brain and brain-derived cells
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22096544

Neuritic regeneration and synaptic reconstruction induced by withanolide A.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15711595

royal jelly / gelée royale

Oral administration of royal jelly facilitates mRNA expression of glial cell line-derived neurotrophic factor and neurofilament H in the hippocampus of the adult mouse brain
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15849420

sulbutiamine

Evidence for a modulatory effect of sulbutiamine on glutamatergic and dopaminergic cortical transmissions in the rat brain
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10996447
+*
In vivo regulation of glial cell line-derived neurotrophic factor-inducible transcription factor by kainic acid.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10579223

*It may increase Gdnf via Kainic acid activation

Edited by Flex, 23 February 2014 - 02:19 AM.

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#3 LexLux

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 05:53 AM

Some new studies that I dug up -
  • both brahmi (bacopa monnieri) and deprenyl can protect the central and peripheral neuronal systems through their unique effects on the antioxidant enzyme activities and intracellular signaling pathways
  • selegiline [(-)deprenyl] and rasagiline, inhibitors of type B monoamine oxidase (MAO)-B, protect neuronal cells from programmed cell death caused by the induction of antiapoptotic, prosurvival genes
  • deprenyl can also improve longer-term learning in aged animals by its excitability-enhancing action in CA1. The drug also countered the ageing-related loss of hippocampal protein kinase C activity
  • Brahmi (Bacopa Monnieri), for cognitive deficit treatment in schizophrenia induced mice. PCP-administered rats was mediated by NMDA up-regulation in prefrontal cortex and CA1-3. Interestingly, Brahmi could recover this cognitive deficit by decreasing NMDA density in these brain areas to normal
  • similar:
  • application of nootropics and antioxidants in the therapy of posttraumatic epilepsy, statistically significant reduction in the number of epileptic seizures, improvement of cognitive function and quality of life of the patients as well as a decrease in the severity of depression and epileptic changes in the EEG were identified.
  • Both preventive and therapeutic administration of Noopept (delayed injections included) significantly alleviated glycemia and weight loss and normalized enhanced pain sensitivity and weakened the examined metabolic effects of diabetogenic toxin.
  • Withania somnifera extract can improve cognitive and psychomotor performance and may, therefore, be a valuable adjunct in the treatment of diseases associated with cognitive impairment
  • Randomized placebo-controlled study of withania somnifera for cognitive dysfuntion in bipolar disorder, it improved auditory-verbal working memory, reaction time, social cognition in bipolar disorder
  • sunifiram enhances hippocampal synaptic efficacy
  • curcumin and stem cell therapy synergistically enhance recovery from spinal cord injury. Stem cell therapy improved recovery from moderate spinal cord injury (SCI), however, it had a limited effect on recovery after severe SCI. Curcumin stimulated NSC proliferation in vitro, and in combination with stem cell therapy, induced profound recovery from severe SCI as evidenced by improved functional locomotor recovery, increased body weight, and soleus muscle mass.
    • http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24558450

Edited by LexLux, 23 February 2014 - 06:29 AM.

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#4 LexLux

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 06:56 AM

  • In chronic cerebrovascular patients, vinpocetin improves impaired hemorheologic variables, has significant vasodilating properties, improves endothelial dysfunction, neuroimaging studies showed selective increase in cerebral blood flow and cerebral metabolic rate, all of which are potentially beneficial in cerebrovascular disease and may improve cognitive functions.
  • Vinpocetine improved cognitive functions in elderly patients vertebrobasisilar insufficiency

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#5 Flex

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 10:01 AM

Thx :-)

Centella asiatica In vitro Evidence that an Aqueous Extract of Centella asiatica Modulates α-Synuclein Aggregation Dynamics.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24284367

Beneficial effects of asiaticoside on cognitive deficits in senescence-accelerated mice
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23562630

Uridine and DHA

Synapse formation is enhanced by oral administration of uridine and DHA, the circulating precursors of brain phosphatides
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19262950
As far as I remember I read the fulltext where they mentioned the usage of Uridine 5´-momophosphate disodium salt

To post #2
The otherside of Kainic acid is it induces Nitric oxide formation which inhibits stemcell profilation in rat dentate gyrus:
The effects of nitric oxide inhibition prior to kainic acid treatment on neuro- and gliogenesis in the rat dentate gyrus in vivo and in vitro.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20503173

Edited by Flex, 23 February 2014 - 10:34 AM.


#6 Flex

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 02:06 PM

Lion´s Mane / Hericium erinaceus

Neurotrophic properties of the Lion's mane medicinal mushroom, Hericium erinaceus (Higher Basidiomycetes) from Malaysia
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24266378

Neuroregenerative potential of lion's mane mushroom, Hericium erinaceus (Bull.: Fr.) Pers. (higher Basidiomycetes), in the treatment of peripheral nerve injury http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23510212

The influence of Hericium erinaceus extract on myelination process in vitro
http://www.ncbi.nlm....euricium mylein

#7 golden1

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 06:00 PM

http://www.longecity...post__p__624943
also kainic acid is a neurotoxin

#8 Flex

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 07:09 PM

Thx for reminding

I know, I just wanted to point out a pontential effect / byproduct of using Sulbutiamine, like the effects from using Noopept or Aniracetam on the NMDA and AMPA receptors (of course within the recommended dose) .

Afaik Kainic Acid is as neurotoxic as other glutamate ligands.
So therefore screwing with the Glutamate System is one of the top NoGo´s,
like with DXM alone or + adrenergic alpha2 antagonist etc.

Edited by Flex, 23 February 2014 - 07:30 PM.


#9 VERITAS INCORRUPTUS

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 03:52 PM

This may be significant to provoke legitimate speculation to the downside potential of potently upregulating neurotrophins and related:

http://tpx.sagepub.c...t/36/3/522.full
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#10 Jeoshua

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 04:13 PM

http://tpx.sagepub.c...t/36/3/522.full


It is also worth noting that, because of the relatively small volume of CSF in monkeys, all doses used in this toxicology study would likely be associated with CSF concentrations far higher than in humans.

Ultimately, another study that shows that scientific experiments which pump lots of chemicals into monkeys are bad for monkey health.
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#11 Nobility

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 06:53 PM

Does one study of a rat really make a difference?, or as in would you buy and take something because of one study on a mouse/rat.

Why I say that;
Well, if the same was for humans, THERE are many many studies of negative reactions just on rats and mice, but people will still take it.

??

#12 normalizing

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 12:20 AM

Thx :-)

Uridine and DHA

Synapse formation is enhanced by oral administration of uridine and DHA, the circulating precursors of brain phosphatides
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19262950
As far as I remember I read the fulltext where they mentioned the usage of Uridine 5´-momophosphate disodium salt




isnt uridine best bioavailable sublingual ? i read people taking it only like this. also whats the best amount mg to take anyway ?

#13 Flex

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 10:21 PM

Dont know, I'm taking occasionally 500mg.

As far as I remeber Mr.Happy reported that at this dosage a some sides appear like feeling discomfort.

Found this in the Benefits - real or illusory - and side effects to stimulating NGF thread:

So taking into consideration the slight cancer concern, my intuition is to dose on a one week on/one week off schedule, maybe after a four week 'attack' phase. Thoughts?


So I have spent most of the morning reading about NGF, BDNF, interaction with cancers and supplements/nutrients. I'm not convinced that there is an actual increase in getting any form of cancer from boosting NGF/BDNF by itself. Let me try to breakdown what I've manage to gather.

In cancer tumors elevated levels of NGF has been found and is known to be one of the factors that benefit the tumor in it's growth. Medication suppressing NGF in this case can be benificial for the treatment of the growth of the tumor. NGF is something that is naturally increased in areas where there is inflammation in order to help the body to repair the area. Inflammation is something that is the effect of all age related damage and diseases. In cancer models NFG is malfunctioning since the body can not separate the mutated cells from healthy ones, hence cancers cells growth and survivability is also enhanced since the body is repairing it. This is my understanding of what goes on with NGF in a cancer model.

There is a great article here that explains the real effect of antidepressants in the brain/body and also talks about BDNF in repairing inflammation in the brain (all backed with studies):

http://www.wellnessr...arly_mortality/

From looking at research on Lion's Mane the mushroom does increase NGF/BDNF levels. There is a bunch of other things that work on NGF/BDNF as well including common nutrients like blueberries and cucumin. Lion's Mane is proven anti-inflammatory and with other cancer benefits so the notion that it would increase risk for cancer sounds highly improbable to me. There is no studies that show anything like this with Lion's Mane and either with other natural NGF/BDNF modulators that I have been able to find. NGF/BDNF does not cause any cells to mutate into cancer cells, it might however not be beneficial if you already have cancer.

And to finish it all off, exercise has been shown to increase NFG and BDNF levels as well. Does that mean exercise causes cancer? No... There is a lot more to this than that. My personal opinion is that it's not probable and I will be adding Lion's Mane to my stack in the future.

Some more interesting stuff here on mental health and BDNF: http://samsnyder.com...ncreasing-bdnf/

Medications:
1. Ketamine use, which has rapid antidepressant properties, is associated with elevated levels of BDNF. (Link)
2. Memantine, which has antidepressant properties, elevates levels of BDNF. (Link)
3. Agomelatine increases hippocampal BDNF and has antidepressant properties. (Link)
4. Riluzole restores hippocampal BDNF expression and has antidepressant properties. (Link)
5. Escitalopram is an antidepressant that reverses BDNF deficits. (Link)
6. Atypical antipsychotics increase BDNF levels and have antidepressant effects. (Link)
7. Venlafaxine is an antidepressant that increases BDNF levels. (Link)
8. Olanzapine increases BDNF levels and augments antidepressant treatment. (Link)
9. Lithium upregulates BDNF and treats bipolar disorder. (Link)
10. Sertraline is an antidepressant that increases BDNF. (Link)
11. Risperidone increases BDNF levels and augments antidepressant treatment. (Link)
12. Imipramine is an antidepressant that up-regulates BDNF expression. (Link)
13. Mirtazapine is an antidepressant that increases BDNF gene expression. (Link)
14. Metyrapone enhances BDNF gene expression and has antidepressant properties. (Link)
15. Rolipram normalizes BDNF levels and has antidepressant properties. (Link)
Other Psychiatric Treatments:
1. Repetitive transcranial magnetic stimulation increases BDNF levels and has antidepressant effects. (Link)
2. Electroconvulsive therapy elevates BDNF levels and has antidepressant effects. (Link)
3. Vagal nerve stimulation activates BDNF receptors and treats depression. (Link)
Food and Lifestyle:
1. A Mediterranean diet increases BDNF levels in depressed patients. (Link)
2. Green odor elevates BDNF and has antidepressant properties. (Link)
3. Music enhances BDNF levels and improves mood. (Link)
4. Alpha-linolenic acid increases BDNF and reduces depressive behavior. (Link)
Supplements:
1. Fish oil has antidepressant effects that involve BDNF. (Link)
2. Ginsenoside prevents a stress-induced reduction in BDNF levels. (Link)
3. Hyperoside has antidepressant properties and elevates BDNF expression. (Link)
4. Magnolol restores BDNF expression and has antidepressant effects. (Link)
5. Curcumin reverses a decrease in BDNF levels and produces an antidepressant effect. (Link)
6. Zinc increases the BDNF mRNA level and has antidepressant effects. (Link)
7. Beta-alanine increases BDNF concentration and has anti-anxiety properties. (Link)
8. Flavonols enhance BDNF expression and have antidepressant properties. (Link)
9. Suyu-Jiaonang attenuates a reduction in BDNF and has antidepressant properties. (Link)
10. Ferulic acid increases BDNF mRNA and ameliorates stress-induced depressive behavior. (Link)
11. Nicotine increases BDNF levels and has antidepressant properties. (Link)
12. Polygala tenuifolia increases BDNF expression and has antidepressant effects. (Link)
13. Xiaoyaosan reverses decreases in BDNF and has antidepressant effects. (Link)
14. Piperine reverses the reduction in BDNF and has antidepressant properties. (Link)
15. Danzhi Xiaoyao powder increases BDNF levels and reduces depressive symptoms. (Link)
16. Ginkgo biloba extract increases BDNF expression and reduces the effects of stress. (Link)
17. Eugenol has antidepressant activity and induces BDNF. (Link)


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#14 LexLux

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 10:35 PM

I was also wondering about BDNF, GDNF, NDF and cancer but I just am not convinced it would have the same affect as IGF-1. Apparently Noopept also increases BDNF and Rasagiline increases GDNF.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23739004

Revelation in the neuroprotective functions of rasagiline and selegiline: the induction of distinct genes by different mechanisms.

In Parkinson's disease, cell death of dopamine neurons in the substantia nigra progresses and neuroprotective therapy is required to halt neuronal loss. In cellular and animal models, selegiline [(-)deprenyl] and rasagiline, inhibitors of type B monoamine oxidase (MAO)-B, protect neuronal cells from programmed cell death. In this paper, the authors review their recent results on the molecular mechanisms by which MAO inhibitors prevent the cell death through the induction of antiapoptotic, prosurvival genes. MAO-A mediates the induction of antiapoptotic bcl-2 and mao-a itself by rasagiline, whereas a different mechanism is associated with selegiline. Rasagiline and selegiline preferentially increase GDNF and BDNF in nonhuman primates and Parkinsonian patients, respectively. Enhanced neurotrophic factors might be applicable to monitor the neurorescuing activity of neuroprotection.

This study on miceis very interesting and showed that "GDNF was significantly more effective than BDNF for both correcting behavioral deficits and protecting nigrostriatal dopaminergic neurons. Expression of both neurotrophic factors was no more effective than expression of only GDNF. These results suggest that GDNF is more effective than BDNF for correcting the rat model of PD, and that there are no detectable benefits from expressing both of these neurotrophic factors".

Also this was posted din one of my threads:

GDNF family receptor complexes are emerging drug targets :"GDNF protects and repairs dopamine-containing neurons, which degenerate in Parkinson's disease, and motoneurons"

and this sounds very good for me considering I'm trying to reverse damages to my dopamine pathways induced by nicotine addiction.

Alcohol Reward, Dopamine Depletion, and GDNF:

"Barak et al. (2011), rats were given intermittent 24 h access to alcohol solutions three times a week for 7 weeks to develop alcohol dependence. Then NAc extracellular dopamine levels and its response to VTA GDNF injections were measured. The authors showed that NAc dopamine levels in alcohol-dependent rats were significantly decreased after 1 h of withdrawal and remained low 24 h later. VTA GDNF injections (10 μg/side) in 24-h-withdrawn rats restored NAc dopamine to control (normal) levels.

Next, the authors demonstrated that VTA GDNF injections have functional consequences on behavior. Injections of GDNF into VTA 10 min before pairing one chamber of a CPP apparatus with 0.5 g/kg alcohol (i.p.) during two conditioning sessions [interspersed with two pairings of saline (i.p.) in a contextually distinct chamber on the opposite side of the apparatus] prevented the development of CPP in alcohol-dependent rats. VTA GDNF injections given 10 min before a CPP test prevented the expression of CPP. Importantly, VTA injections of GDNF alone caused no preference or aversion. Finally, in alcohol-dependent rats trained to press a lever to receive alcohol (2.5–40%), VTA GDNF injections produced a downward shift in the dose–response curve. The rats made fewer responses and received fewer alcohol deliveries at each concentration tested on days when the rats received GDNF compared with days in which they received vehicle injections. Such downward shifts in the dose–response curve are usually interpreted as a decrease in the rewarding effect of the drug.

These results have several important implications for our understanding of GDNF's role in alcohol reward. First, these results extend the authors' previous results showing that VTA GDNF decreases alcohol intake and that heterozygous genetic knock-out of the GDNF gene increases rewarding effects of alcohol (Carnicella et al., 2009). The CPP findings extend the previous work with knock-out mice by showing that the role of GDNF in alcohol reward is localized, at least in part, to the VTA. Second, these findings demonstrate a role for GDNF both in acquisition and expression of the CPP memory.

Most relevant to the dopamine-depletion hypothesis is the finding that VTA GDNF injections normalized the decreased NAc dopamine levels during alcohol withdrawal and also decreased alcohol reward. This dual effect of GDNF injections provides one plausible explanation for the role of VTA GDNF in decreasing alcohol reward—reversing the dopamine depleted dysphoric state. However, these are correlative findings that are open to alternative interpretations. One such possibility is that GDNF acts in the VTA to decrease the rewarding effects of alcohol in a dopamine-independent manner. In this regard, there is evidence for dopamine-independent reward mechanisms in the VTA (Nader and van der Kooy, 1997; Ikemoto et al., 1998)."


Role for GDNF in Biochemical and Behavioral Adaptations to Drugs of Abuse:

"Abstract

The present study examined a role for GDNF in adaptations to drugs of abuse. Infusion of GDNF into the ventral tegmental area (VTA), a dopaminergic brain region important for addiction, blocks certain biochemical adaptations to chronic cocaine or morphine as well as the rewarding effects of cocaine. Conversely, responses to cocaine are enhanced in rats by intra-VTA infusion of an anti-GDNF antibody and in mice heterozygous for a null mutation in the GDNF gene. Chronic morphine or cocaine exposure decreases levels of phosphoRet, the protein kinase that mediates GDNF signaling, in the VTA. Together, these results suggest a feedback loop, whereby drugs of abuse decrease signaling through endogenous GDNF pathways in the VTA, which then increases the behavioral sensitivity to subsequent drug exposure.
[...]
The major objective of the present study was to assess such a role for one particular neurotrophic factor, GDNF (glial cell line–derived neurotrophic factor). We focused on GDNF for several reasons. First, GDNF enhances the survival and maintains the differentiated properties of dopaminergic neurons in cell culture and does so far more potently compared to BDNF and other neurotrophins (Lin et al. 1993). Second, GDNF dramatically enhances the survival of midbrain dopamine neurons in vivo after challenge with dopaminergic neurotoxins such as 6-hydroxydopamine or MPTP (2 and 23). GDNF also protects animals from the behavioral deficits associated with such lesions. Strikingly, a single injection of GDNF into the midbrain can exert such protective effects for at least one month (23 and 61). Third, signaling proteins for GDNF, GFRα1 and the associated protein tyrosine kinase Ret, are both highly enriched in midbrain dopamine neurons (55, 56, 57 and 58). The binding of GDNF to its receptor complex causes the phosphorylation and activation of Ret, which then mediates the physiological effects of the neurotrophic factor.

[...]
Discussion [MUST READ]

The major findings of this study are that exogenous GDNF, administered directly into the rat VTA, blunts both biochemical and behavioral adaptations to repeated administration of drugs of abuse. The study also establishes that endogenous GDNF systems are required for normal biochemical and behavioral responses to drug exposure: infusion of anti-GDNF antibody directly into the VTA increases a rat's sensitivity to drug effects, and mice that lack one copy of the GDNF gene show a similar increase in drug sensitivity. This is a particularly important observation because it extends what we know about the role of GDNF in the regulation of dopaminergic neurotransmission. Thus, research to date has only shown the pharmacological ability of exogenously applied GDNF to protect dopamine neurons in the adult brain in vivo from neurotoxic injury (see Introduction). The results of the present study implicate endogenous GDNF systems in regulating the function of adult dopamine neurons, in particular, regulating their responses to drugs of abuse. Moreover, based on our findings that chronic drug exposure decreases the phosphorylation of the GDNF signaling protein Ret in the VTA, we hypothesize further that some of the long-term effects of morphine and cocaine on the mesolimbic dopamine system are achieved via perturbation of endogenous GDNF signaling pathways.

[...] the fact that GDNF blocks behavioral responses to drug exposure means that the net effect of the neurotrophic factor must involve biochemical changes that oppose drug action.

The contrast between the effects of GDNF and BDNF on actions of drugs of abuse is interesting. Intra-VTA infusions of BDNF, like those of GDNF, in rats block some of the biochemical adaptations to morphine and cocaine, for example, induction of tyrosine hydroxylase in the VTA and of protein kinase A in the NAc (Berhow et al. 1995). Yet, a recent study showed that BDNF dramatically augments an animal's responses to the locomotor and rewarding properties of cocaine ( Horger et al. 1999). Such augmented behavioral responses would make sense if the biochemical adaptations blocked by BDNF are homeostatic; that is, they serve to reduce further drug effects. Presumably, these findings indicate that the net effect of BDNF, in contrast to that of GDNF, involves biochemical changes that increase behavioral responses to drug exposure. Consistent with this interpretation is the finding that BDNF knockout mice, in contrast to GDNF knockout mice, show reduced behavioral plasticity to repeated cocaine administration ( Horger et al. 1999). The biochemical endpoints examined in the present study and in the earlier studies of BDNF likely represent only a small portion of the adaptations that chronic drug administration causes in the VTA and NAc. Therefore, a major goal of future research is to further characterize the influence of GDNF and BDNF on the mesolimbic dopamine system, with the objective of finding differences in the molecular and cellular actions of the two neurotrophic factors that explain their opposite behavioral effects.
[...]
To conclude, the results of the present study establish a functional interaction between GDNF and drugs of abuse at the level of the mesolimbic dopamine system. The findings highlight the complex types of mechanisms that are likely induced in the brain by chronic exposure to a drug of abuse. The involvement of GDNF and perhaps other neurotrophic factor systems in drug-induced neural and behavioral plasticity could be particularly important for the very long-lived changes in brain function associated with addiction. These results also raise the interesting possibility that medications targeted to GDNF or to its signaling pathway could be useful as novel treatment agents for addictive disorders in humans."


Edited by LexLux, 16 March 2014 - 11:10 PM.

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#15 normalizing

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 01:51 AM

good read Lex, thanks. i believe i have read it before but i have lost the source. anyway, since i doubt one can purchase injections with GDNF, what can be taken to influence it possitively ?? as an addict, thats life saving!

#16 LexLux

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 12:54 PM

I seems rasagiline increases GDNf, I'm discussing the correct doage here: http://www.longecity...nf/#entry650378


"Revelation in the neuroprotective functions of rasagiline and selegiline: the induction of distinct genes by different mechanisms.

In Parkinson's disease, cell death of dopamine neurons in the substantia nigra progresses and neuroprotective therapy is required to halt neuronal loss. In cellular and animal models, selegiline [(-)deprenyl] and rasagiline, inhibitors of type B monoamine oxidase (MAO)-B, protect neuronal cells from programmed cell death. In this paper, the authors review their recent results on the molecular mechanisms by which MAO inhibitors prevent the cell death through the induction of antiapoptotic, prosurvival genes. MAO-A mediates the induction of antiapoptotic bcl-2 and mao-a itself by rasagiline, whereas a different mechanism is associated with selegiline. Rasagiline and selegiline preferentially increase GDNF and BDNF in nonhuman primates and Parkinsonian patients, respectively. Enhanced neurotrophic factors might be applicable to monitor the neurorescuing activity of neuroprotection."

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23739004

Edited by LexLux, 19 March 2014 - 12:54 PM.


#17 Flex

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 09:14 PM

Afaik its questionable whether Gdnf penetrantes the blood-brain-barrier if injected.

These following ones increases Gdnf:
Selegiline, Rasagliline, Ashwagandha( but it doubt its potency a bit in regards of gdnf)
And royal gelly, but it seemingly/afaik affects only in the hippocampus

Edited by Flex, 19 March 2014 - 09:18 PM.


#18 LexLux

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 12:40 AM

Apparently selegiline increases BDNF much more than GDNF.

#19 normalizing

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 01:47 AM

well i have selegiline, rasagiline is way way too expensive. and ashwagandha might have some effect but very subtle, because when combined with alcohol for me personaly, it enhances the effect. but really, what im looking for here is something to keep GDNF at bay when alcohol is not the one providing it.

#20 Phoenicis

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 01:56 AM

Alldaychemist was selling Rasagiline for a decent price

#21 normalizing

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 02:03 AM

wow i just checked. 12.99 for 30 pills. this cannot be the real rasagiline. who sells it that cheap ? im also questionable of the site. seems like one of those shady online pharm places which might or might not send you what you need....

#22 Phoenicis

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 02:13 AM

The site says its the generic made by Intas, my friend ordered some and he said the packaging indicates Rasalect 1mg tablets by Sun Pharma. Alot of people get other stuff from that site like tretinoin. I have admit they were very cheap. Anyone tried? Also check the law before ordering.

Edited by Phoenicis, 20 March 2014 - 02:43 AM.


#23 Flex

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 02:34 AM

Altough I dont know anything about sunpharma, i can tell you that Rasagiline is of course obtainable for a cheaper price.
Its expensive because its still patentet and only sold by the inventer. So if you find a reliable generic source, you would get it far cheaper.

But thats the point. Since its patent is still valid, you could cross the law for ordering a unallowed generic. Therefore consider to check your local law, before ordering

Edited by Flex, 20 March 2014 - 02:39 AM.


#24 normalizing

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 02:59 AM

such cheap rasagiline.... so enticing. but im still questioning how much of a possitive influence rasagiline has over selegiline. people keep saying "oh but it has none of the amphetamine in you after dosing with rasagiline" but honestly, thats not enough positive literature to really switch one over the other. deprenyl can be taken in patches and sublingually too without the amphetamine effect if you knew this.

Edited by normalizing, 20 March 2014 - 03:00 AM.


#25 celebes

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 07:21 AM

And royal gelly, but it seemingly/afaik affects only in the hippocampus


Hippocampus, cortex and cerebellum strongly. Other areas but less so. The main issue is having to take around 5g daily.

#26 Flex

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 08:39 AM

Thanks for the Info

Almost bought it now :)

#27 OpaqueMind

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 11:04 AM

In my experience with recovery from drug abuse, chemical nootropics were minimally effective at best, harmful at worst. The brain is a finely tuned chaotic system, and messing with its innate intelligence at a time when it needs to use it most is not the best idea. This doesn't mean that all interventions are off. I've had a great recovery using neurofeedback, which is a powerful way to help the brain to self-regulate its own feedback loops and work 'with the grain' as it were, as opposed to introducing alien substances hoping for a positive effect. I've tried so many things, and NFB is the one which has really helped me to regain a large part of my former cognitive abilities. I will be documenting more of my experience with it, as time permits, in this thread. If you're going to go this route I recommend DIY materials - the cost of a decent machine and protocols matches about what most trainers charge for 20 or so sessions, and with your own, you can use it indefinitely, and with others who could benefit. I think Infra-low frequency might modulate GDNF, but whatever the mechanism it seems to affect glial cells and cerebral autoregulation. I've tried several different types of neurofeedback, and ILF has been the best at remediating cognitive damage. This make sense, as glial cells control the distribution of blood and nutrients throughout the brain, so by 'tuning up' the glial system you boost the brains ability to self-repair and respond flexibly to the demands placed on it from moment to moment.

Edited by OpaqueMind, 20 March 2014 - 11:08 AM.

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#28 normalizing

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 01:35 AM

this neurofeedback thing you recomend, its probably costy long term. i mean, do you have to use it regularly or you just need to try it few times to self tune well enough in the future ??

edit: i missed that part where you brought your own machine. still is the idea such that you have to use it daily for the rest of your life or what ? seems kind of strange.

Edited by normalizing, 21 March 2014 - 01:38 AM.


#29 OpaqueMind

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 04:53 PM

The initial investment is not insubstantial, but the price of the equipment is coming down all the time, and once you have the stuff, you'll have it indefinitely, with no extra cost. Pocket Neurobics have a great product line, and a 2-channel (which is all you need for the majority of protocols) EEG machine from them costs $595, and with the relevant software and electrodes that comes to just under $1000.

Once the brain has learned to internalise the control loops which it trains during feedback sessions, outside equipment will no longer be required in order for self-regulation to occur. However, given the complexity of the brain, and the wide variety of protocols, freqeuncies and area placements available, this will take some time to occur to maximum efficiency. No doubt there will come a point where I hit some kind of ceiling, either due to the inherent limitations of my physiology or the inadeqeucy of my understanding of how to finetune the protocols optimally. I've been using it for three months and I've made great progress - still, I feel I have barely scratched the surface with respect to its potentials.

A similar process occurs when we first learn to ride a bicycle, we need training wheels in order to remain balanced, but over time we incorporate the neuromuscular control loops which enable balance and stability with less reliance on peripheral supports. With enough practice, we can safetly remove the training wheels and ride properly without them.

Edited by OpaqueMind, 21 March 2014 - 04:54 PM.

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#30 normalizing

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Posted 22 March 2014 - 01:16 AM

yeah, its way too expensive for me actually. i thought maybe do few visits and not be regular i can probably not spend that much ? im just curious is all, not like i want to get hardcore into it.





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