612 replies to this topic

[playground]

I wonder if NGF spray could help me with my long-term struggle with cripling social anxiety, GAD and other issues mostly related to anxiety ?

 

Hi Diego55,

 

The answer is... perhaps yes.

This youtube documentary is from Dr John McMichael.

He basically studied NGF for anxiety and concluded that it has a novel anti-depressant effect.

 

 

Interestingly, he used only 0.04 of a microgram.  (not milligram, but microgram).

So that's a fantastically small dosage.

 

Playground.

[resveratrol_guy]

Good post!

 

Yes.. that's an excellent idea. 

Take NGF with something that works synergistically with NGF.

 

I think the two established (non-surgical) routes for getting NGF into the  brain are:

(1) by eye-drops,

(2) by nasal spray.

 

Here's an interesting article:

 

Development of a non-invasive NGF-based therapy for Alzheimer's disease.

See here:  http://www.mycopro.c...2011_heri-5.pdf

 

I haven't read this one yet, only the abstract.  I'll be reading it next.

 

Interestingly,  at the end of the abstract they say:

 

       Finally, we demonstrated that intranasally delivered hNGF-61 is significantly more effective than ocularly applied hNGF-61

 

Don't be distracted by hNGF-61 (it's just their version of NGF)... the point here is that they seem to

be saying that their nasal spray NGF is better than eye-drops NGF.   On this thread we've been

discussing the NGF Eye-Drops patent (that metagene posted).    So we know someone's got a patent

out already for the eye-drops application of NGF.    I wont be surprised to find out that these

people have filled a patent for the nasal spray NGF.    And so... saying the nasal version is 'more effective'

is possibly just advance marketing.... or to put it another way...  a pack of lies.

 

What's interesting about a nasal spray application of NGF, is that Alzheimer's is thought to begin

in the nasal nerves... specifically the nasal nerves on the right hand side.  Why that should be ... isn't clear. 

So applying NGF nasal spray might make it much harder for Alzheimer’s to get started.

 

This stuff might also result in you developing a super-sensitive sense of smell too.

 

 

Playground
 

 

 

First of all, I wouldn't be surprised if nasal spray is more effective than eye drops, on account of the olfactory nerve being more accessible than the optic nerve. But I would recommend against nasal spray, mainly because of exactly what you suggested: super olfactory capability. In other words, if it worked, then you would invalidate the best early detection method for Alzheimer's that we have. The smell test fails long before severe memory problems manifest, apparently.

 

And the other reason is one of sanitation: in practice, it's hard to use nasal spray in a sanitary manner. (Some deadly diseases can be transmitted via the olfactory nerve, although they are rare.) Eye drops don't have this problem, provided that the liquid is sterile to begin with.

 

But to your ponit about taking NGF plus an NGF upregulator, that makes sense. The question is, what is the best ratio and what is the best upregulator, after factoring in cost? I don't think we'll know until we manage to obtain some NGF. My guess is that pure NGF will lose out to lion's mane for financial reasons. But I may be wrong, and I'm itching to see the data from a group buy.

[dz93]

Good post!

Yes.. that's an excellent idea.
Take NGF with something that works synergistically with NGF.

I think the two established (non-surgical) routes for getting NGF into the brain are:
(1) by eye-drops,
(2) by nasal spray.

Here's an interesting article:

Development of a non-invasive NGF-based therapy for Alzheimer's disease.

See here: http://www.mycopro.c...2011_heri-5.pdf

I haven't read this one yet, only the abstract. I'll be reading it next.

Interestingly, at the end of the abstract they say:

Finally, we demonstrated that intranasally delivered hNGF-61 is significantly more effective than ocularly applied hNGF-61

Don't be distracted by hNGF-61 (it's just their version of NGF)... the point here is that they seem to
be saying that their nasal spray NGF is better than eye-drops NGF. On this thread we've been
discussing the NGF Eye-Drops patent (that metagene posted). So we know someone's got a patent
out already for the eye-drops application of NGF. I wont be surprised to find out that these
people have filled a patent for the nasal spray NGF. And so... saying the nasal version is 'more effective'
is possibly just advance marketing.... or to put it another way... a pack of lies.

What's interesting about a nasal spray application of NGF, is that Alzheimer's is thought to begin
in the nasal nerves... specifically the nasal nerves on the right hand side. Why that should be ... isn't clear.
So applying NGF nasal spray might make it much harder for Alzheimer’s to get started.

This stuff might also result in you developing a super-sensitive sense of smell too.


Playground

First of all, I wouldn't be surprised if nasal spray is more effective than eye drops, on account of the olfactory nerve being more accessible than the optic nerve. But I would recommend against nasal spray, mainly because of exactly what you suggested: super olfactory capability. In other words, if it worked, then you would invalidate the best early detection method for Alzheimer's that we have. The smell test fails long before severe memory problems manifest, apparently.

And the other reason is one of sanitation: in practice, it's hard to use nasal spray in a sanitary manner. (Some deadly diseases can be transmitted via the olfactory nerve, although they are rare.) Eye drops don't have this problem, provided that the liquid is sterile to begin with.

But to your ponit about taking NGF plus an NGF upregulator, that makes sense. The question is, what is the best ratio and what is the best upregulator, after factoring in cost? I don't think we'll know until we manage to obtain some NGF. My guess is that pure NGF will lose out to lion's mane for financial reasons. But I may be wrong, and I'm itching to see the data from a group buy.

About the nasal spray and AD test, I wouldn't care. I mean its only a matter of time before more effective tests come around and I highly doubt any of the people who would be participating in this group buy will be getting AD in the next ten years or so. Its still something to consider but I don't think I'd be worried about that.

As for the sanitation, there are a lot of nootropics that are currently being delivered intranasally. I have yet to hear of any report of nose diseases lol. That doesn't mean it can't happen but the likelyhood is very low. Especially if you mix in a little bacteriostatic water which is usually what most people do.

The nasal spray shouldn't be an issue at all but its good that you pointed out those concerns because they are legitimate concerns. I just don't think they're likely to happen.

Now, if we were to take NGF nasal spray with lions mane extract it should maximize NGF concentrations in the brain. At least that's how I understand it. So we would only need a very small amount of NGF. Possibly in the nanograms per dose, which would be affordable.

One of the bigger things I wonder about is will raising concentrations of just NGF alone have its own adverse effects. I'd like to look into raising levels of other neurotrophins too. However, I know this thread is about NGF so I'll stick with that right now. In the mean time I'm going to start researching NT-3 and NT-4/5 more.

I will now be participating in this group buy so you can officially add me to the list. Idk how much I'll be wanting to buy, I'll decide that when we can figure out an optimum dose but I'd like to get at least a few months worth.

Edited by dz93, 09 June 2015 - 06:14 PM.

[playground]

 

First of all, I wouldn't be surprised if nasal spray is more effective than eye drops, on account of the olfactory nerve being more accessible than the optic nerve. But I would recommend against nasal spray, mainly because of exactly what you suggested: super olfactory capability. In other words, if it worked, then you would invalidate the best early detection method for Alzheimer's that we have. The smell test fails long before severe memory problems manifest, apparently.

 

 

 That's a very good point.
 

Edited by playground, 09 June 2015 - 10:25 PM.

[playground]

About the nasal spray and AD test, I wouldn't care. I mean its only a matter of time before more effective tests come around and I highly doubt any of the people who would be participating in this group buy will be getting AD in the next ten years or so. Its still something to consider but I don't think I'd be worried about that.

As for the sanitation, there are a lot of nootropics that are currently being delivered intranasally. I have yet to hear of any report of nose diseases lol. That doesn't mean it can't happen but the likelyhood is very low. Especially if you mix in a little bacteriostatic water which is usually what most people do.

The nasal spray shouldn't be an issue at all but its good that you pointed out those concerns because they are legitimate concerns. I just don't think they're likely to happen.

Now, if we were to take NGF nasal spray with lions mane extract it should maximize NGF concentrations in the brain. At least that's how I understand it. So we would only need a very small amount of NGF. Possibly in the nanograms per dose, which would be affordable.

One of the bigger things I wonder about is will raising concentrations of just NGF alone have its own adverse effects. I'd like to look into raising levels of other neurotrophins too. However, I know this thread is about NGF so I'll stick with that right now. In the mean time I'm going to start researching NT-3 and NT-4/5 more.

I will now be participating in this group buy so you can officially add me to the list. Idk how much I'll be wanting to buy, I'll decide that when we can figure out an optimum dose but I'd like to get at least a few months worth.

 

Hi dz93,

 

Personally, I would do the Lion's Mane orally and use the NGF via eye-drops or nasal spray...  

I wouldn't mix them together, i'd be afraid of getting some kind of bacterial/fungal infection, or

perhaps some kind of 'large particle' irritation in my tear ducts etc ....

it seems to me.... it's just easier and safer to take the Lion's Mane orally.

It's just my opinion.

 

If you start a thread on NT-3  and NT-4/5 please let me know, i'll follow it's progress and probably

contribute.  I'd also like to know more about BNDF.

 

Playground.

 

[dz93]

I didn't mean take lions mane intranasally haha. I wouldn't do that either. We already know its effective orally so there's no point in trying a new RoA.

I'm going to use Semax and NSI-189 to increase BDNF while taking NGF and lions mane. Its just NT-3 and NT-4/5 that I don't know much about. I don't think I'll be starting a thread about it but I will definitely keep you up to date about what I find and if I do find something of any value then I'll start a thread.

Edit: I should mention NSI-189 only affects the hippocampus or at least that's all we know it affects because the mechanism of action is unknown. Semax isn't entirely clear but it does raise BDNF levels. I don't know if its localized to one region of the brain though.

Edited by dz93, 09 June 2015 - 10:53 PM.

[resveratrol_guy]

Watch out for Semax. It messes with cortisol and therefore might have deleterious adrenergic ramifications. Perhaps it's an acceptable side effect, but beware.

 

So do we have an official manager of the NGF group buy? If not, would anyone volunteer? I think what we're buying here is vials containing X micrograms of rhNGF in bacteriostatic water (for now, given that we don't know nearly as much about NGF's various cousins).

 

[dz93]

Watch out for Semax. It messes with cortisol and therefore might have deleterious adrenergic ramifications. Perhaps it's an acceptable side effect, but beware.

That is very true. Thank you for mentioning that. It doesn't affect me very much because Ive never been prone to stress or anxiety. So its an effective nootropic for me but it may not be for others.

There's always exercise

Edited by dz93, 10 June 2015 - 12:09 AM.

[playground]

Watch out for Semax. It messes with cortisol and therefore might have deleterious adrenergic ramifications. Perhaps it's an acceptable side effect, but beware.

 

So do we have an official manager of the NGF group buy? If not, would anyone volunteer? I think what we're buying here is vials containing X micrograms of rhNGF in bacteriostatic water (for now, given that we don't know nearly as much about NGF's various cousins).

 

Hi RG, 

 

We don't yet have a broker for the deal.

But perhaps we should start collecting potential supplier details,

i.e.. websites, product numbers, product prices (per volume)  etc.

 

I've already sent an email to the company that 'plasticperson'

originally suggested... they have failed to reply (at least, so far).

Note, I'm not volunteering myself.  But perhaps i can suggest

a good candidate for the role of broker.   I will update the

thread one way or the other in the next week or so.

 

But clearly..  we need to know first if we can purchase for a price

that's feasible.  If it's going to cost $1000 per milligram... then 

(probably) the group buy simply wont happen. 

We need to figure out what prices are out there.

 

Playground

Edited by playground, 10 June 2015 - 12:55 AM.

[normalizing]

Watch out for Semax. It messes with cortisol and therefore might have deleterious adrenergic ramifications. Perhaps it's an acceptable side effect, but beware.

 

So do we have an official manager of the NGF group buy? If not, would anyone volunteer? I think what we're buying here is vials containing X micrograms of rhNGF in bacteriostatic water (for now, given that we don't know nearly as much about NGF's various cousins).

 

can you elaborate more on semax's deleterious adrenergic remifications? do you mean, once siezing regular use, you cannot naturally balance cortisol so you get panic attacks? something along the lines of benzo withdrawl, but related to cortisol stress??

[resveratrol_guy]

 

 

can you elaborate more on semax's deleterious adrenergic remifications? do you mean, once siezing regular use, you cannot naturally balance cortisol so you get panic attacks? something along the lines of benzo withdrawl, but related to cortisol stress??

 

 

Well, never having taken it myself, I would recommend asking these OT (but quite reasonable) questions on the Semax experiences thread. Suffice to say that the connection to cortisol is complex, and according to one person, it might actually lower it, which is exactly the opposite of what this person experienced.

[dz93]

I thinkn I found something interesting.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12453498

Could someone explain to me what this is basically saying? That way I know I'm understanding it correctly lol. I don't want to look like an idiot.

[resveratrol_guy]

 

But clearly..  we need to know first if we can purchase for a price

that's feasible.  If it's going to cost $1000 per milligram... then 

(probably) the group buy simply wont happen. 

We need to figure out what prices are out there.

 

Playground

 

 

After an extensive search, I did find this South Korean vendor who says that the price is at most $100/mg. Everyone else is over $900/mg. $100 is not cheap, but probably feasible for a group buy. (It actually might be less. Alibaba has this annoying way of providing price ranges. You need to send an email inquiry to get the actual price, so they have a chance to see how knowledgeable you are about market price, so they can rip you off to the maximum possible extent.)

 

South Korea is a world leader in stem cell therapy and has spawned the likes of Samsung and Hyundai. Granted, this particular vendor could be dodgy, but I think they're worth a chat.

 

It's sourced from E. Coli and has at least 93% purity. Given the tiny quantities we require, I don't think 7% impurity is likely to be a problem. But we should ask what that 7% consists of. (It had better not be toluene and arsenic!)

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 10 June 2015 - 01:20 PM.

[dz93]

But clearly.. we need to know first if we can purchase for a price
that's feasible. If it's going to cost $1000 per milligram... then
(probably) the group buy simply wont happen.
We need to figure out what prices are out there.

Playground

After an extensive search, I did find this South Korean vendor who says that the price is at most $100/mg. Everyone else is over $900/mg. $100 is not cheap, but probably feasible for a group buy. (It actually might be less. Alibaba has this annoying way of providing price ranges. You need to send an email inquiry to get the actual price, so they have a chance to see how knowledgeable you are about market price, so they can rip you off to the maximum possible extent.)

South Korea is a world leader in stem cell therapy and has spawned the likes of Samsung and Hyundai. Granted, this particular vendor could be dodgy, but I think they're worth a chat.

It's sourced from E. Coli and has at least 93% purity. Given the tiny quantities we require, I don't think 7% impurity is likely to be a problem. But we should ask what that 7% consists of. (It had better not be toluene and arsenic!)

$100 per mg is easily affordable for me. Especially if the dose is in the ng. Do we know what dose we should be taking? At $100 per mg, taking a 10mcg dose per day would last for 100 days. I still think that dose is too large. I'd probably try 1mcg or less at first.

[curious_george]

 

 

After an extensive search, I did find this South Korean vendor who says that the price is at most $100/mg. Everyone else is over $900/mg. $100 is not cheap, but probably feasible for a group buy. (It actually might be less. Alibaba has this annoying way of providing price ranges. 

Perfect.... $100 per mg is good for me.... I was hoping we would end up around this price.... Good work tracking down this vendor!

Did they mention a minimum order size?  I remember the other SK vendor wanted 30mg minimum order.

We're getting a lot closer to the Group Buy!

Do you want to coordinate the Buy?  Or do we have an official admin for the Buy yet?

When ever it is sorted out please contact me with the payment details... Count me in for a minimum of 3mg 

[playground]

 

 

But clearly..  we need to know first if we can purchase for a price

that's feasible.  If it's going to cost $1000 per milligram... then 

(probably) the group buy simply wont happen. 

We need to figure out what prices are out there.

 

Playground

 

 

After an extensive search, I did find this South Korean vendor who says that the price is at most $100/mg. Everyone else is over $900/mg. $100 is not cheap, but probably feasible for a group buy. (It actually might be less. Alibaba has this annoying way of providing price ranges. You need to send an email inquiry to get the actual price, so they have a chance to see how knowledgeable you are about market price, so they can rip you off to the maximum possible extent.)

 

South Korea is a world leader in stem cell therapy and has spawned the likes of Samsung and Hyundai. Granted, this particular vendor could be dodgy, but I think they're worth a chat.

 

It's sourced from E. Coli and has at least 93% purity. Given the tiny quantities we require, I don't think 7% impurity is likely to be a problem. But we should ask what that 7% consists of. (It had better not be toluene and arsenic!)

 

 

good post!

 

That's the same company that i tried to contact.

They simply didn't respond.

Perhaps you'll have more luck.

 

I failed to find any prices for rhNGF from this supplier.

Where did you see the prices quoted ?

Can you post a link to the page that lists the price from this supplier, please?

 

I wonder if it's possible to pay more and get a higher purity version (from this supplier)

 

Playground

 

[resveratrol_guy]

 

$100 per mg is easily affordable for me. Especially if the dose is in the ng. Do we know what dose we should be taking? At $100 per mg, taking a 10mcg dose per day would last for 100 days. I still think that dose is too large. I'd probably try 1mcg or less at first.

 

 

10 ug/day seems about right for maintenance, with much higher doses being required for neuronal repopulation in dementia sufferers. (If you have a high plaque load and/or type 3 diabetes, neurons will die more quickly, so you need to repopulate more aggressively.) But my estimation is purely based on rat studies @ 100-200 ug/mL, given about 50 drops/mL and somewhere from 1 to 10 drops per eye per day. I doubt very much that you would notice anything at 1 ug/d, but you could start there for safety's sake.

 

It occurred to me that the vendor might be able to package it in vials with bacteriostatic water, in which case we would only need to syringe it into an empty eye drop bottle from the pharmacy. In that case, we wouldn't need a group buy manager at all, except to consolidate money and place the order. Product could ship directly from the company to each buyer.

 

In theory, we could just get a volume discount from the vendor, allowing each of us to place our orders directly with them.

 

But first someone needs to contact these folks and see if they know what they're doing.

[playground]

 

 

 

After an extensive search, I did find this South Korean vendor who says that the price is at most $100/mg. Everyone else is over $900/mg. $100 is not cheap, but probably feasible for a group buy. (It actually might be less. Alibaba has this annoying way of providing price ranges. 

Perfect.... $100 per mg is good for me.... I was hoping we would end up around this price.... Good work tracking down this vendor!

Did they mention a minimum order size?  I remember the other SK vendor wanted 30mg minimum order.

We're getting a lot closer to the Group Buy!

Do you want to coordinate the Buy?  Or do we have an official admin for the Buy yet?

When ever it is sorted out please contact me with the payment details... Count me in for a minimum of 3mg 

 

 

Which vendor was that ? 

Can you post name or  website address of that vendor here please ?

I'd be very grateful :-)

It might come in very handy in the next few days.
 

Playground

[resveratrol_guy]

good post!

 

That's the same company that i tried to contact.

They simply didn't respond.

Perhaps you'll have more luck.

 

 

That doesn't sound too good. But email is ignored all the time. Did you try to phone them?

[resveratrol_guy]

Perfect.... $100 per mg is good for me.... I was hoping we would end up around this price.... Good work tracking down this vendor!

Did they mention a minimum order size?  I remember the other SK vendor wanted 30mg minimum order.

We're getting a lot closer to the Group Buy!

Do you want to coordinate the Buy?  Or do we have an official admin for the Buy yet?

When ever it is sorted out please contact me with the payment details... Count me in for a minimum of 3mg 

 

 

FOB Price: US $0 - 100 / Milligram

Min.Order Quantity: 10 Milligram/Milligrams

 

I'm not against coordinating this group buy, but let's figure out first if (1) they know how to answer the phone and (2) they know how to make high quality NGF.

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 10 June 2015 - 03:45 PM.

[resveratrol_guy]

By the way, I encourage everyone to watch the McMichael video that Playground posted above. I didn't bother with it until now because it sounded like a boring demonstration of how NGF has antidespressant properties, which it is, in part. But it's also an extensive exploration of its effects at low dose, some of which are rather astounding. Try visiting your local neurologist and asking for a pill that will reverse aphasia (the loss of speaking ability), for instance.

 

It sounds like 10s of ng/kg will actually enable the calming effects and assist with escape from addiction. At that level, it appears to behave like mesenchymal stem cell therapy: it kicks off a therapeutic "program" which is insensitive to escalating dose, up to a point; eventually, I suspect that neurogenesis kicks in at a much higher dose, maybe 10s of ug/kg.

 

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 10 June 2015 - 05:52 PM.

[playground]

 

good post!

 

That's the same company that i tried to contact.

They simply didn't respond.

Perhaps you'll have more luck.

 

 

That doesn't sound too good. But email is ignored all the time. Did you try to phone them?

 

 

Nope.. i didn't try to phone them... but that's an option. 

Have they replied by email to you RG ?

[resveratrol_guy]

 

 

good post!

 

That's the same company that i tried to contact.

They simply didn't respond.

Perhaps you'll have more luck.

 

 

That doesn't sound too good. But email is ignored all the time. Did you try to phone them?

 

 

Nope.. i didn't try to phone them... but that's an option. 

Have they replied by email to you RG ?

 

 

I just spoke to the CEO. The guy was straightforward and claimed that it's between 92 and 95% pure, which is obviously low grade. He said that they could produce higher purity at higher cost. The existing stuff is exactly $100/mg. But here's the problem: under South Korean law, they can only export to a cosmetics manufacturing company. In theory, someone here could just set up a company with "Cosmetics" in the name, and probably satisfy them. Perhaps they would need a link to the government website confirming registration in the foreign country. That whole process might cost $200 or so, or more depending on how serious the company needs to be about cosmetics development. But there's an easier way: find a cosmetics company, ideally one that they already sell to outside Korea, and buy through them for a reasonable margin. I asked him about this and he said he would research it. I told him I'd email him back within a few days.

 

So if anyone here has been dreaming of starting a cosmetics company in a lightly regulated jurisdiction, here's your chance!

 

Seriously, why don't they just make it illegal to be healthy, and save us all the time.

[Ark]

good post!

That's the same company that i tried to contact.
They simply didn't respond.
Perhaps you'll have more luck.

That doesn't sound too good. But email is ignored all the time. Did you try to phone them?

Nope.. i didn't try to phone them... but that's an option.
Have they replied by email to you RG ?

I just spoke to the CEO. The guy was straightforward and claimed that it's between 92 and 95% pure, which is obviously low grade. He said that they could produce higher purity at higher cost. The existing stuff is exactly $100/mg. But here's the problem: under South Korean law, they can only export to a cosmetics manufacturing company. In theory, someone here could just set up a company with "Cosmetics" in the name, and probably satisfy them. Perhaps they would need a link to the government website confirming registration in the foreign country. That whole process might cost $200 or so, or more depending on how serious the company needs to be about cosmetics development. But there's an easier way: find a cosmetics company, ideally one that they already sell to outside Korea, and buy through them for a reasonable margin. I asked him about this and he said he would research it. I told him I'd email him back within a few days.

So if anyone here has been dreaming of starting a cosmetics company in a lightly regulated jurisdiction, here's your chance!

Seriously, why don't they just make it illegal to be healthy, and save us all the time.

Are we going to test for impurities ourselves?

[Ark]

Also, I'd only buy in if the purity is 98%+.

[resveratrol_guy]

Also, I'd only buy in if the purity is 98%+.

 

My impression is that this isn't a problem with the South Korean vendor, or probably any competent vendor, for that matter. I would also invite a discussion how we propose to verify purity on our own with an independent lab, but there's no point worrying about that until we know where to buy it.

 

Unfortunately, this cosmetic company requirement is a real road block. If we don't have other ideas, I'm going to have to contact him again soon and try to work out a deal with an intermediate cosmetic company. Yuck.

 

Anyone find any other vendors? In India or China, perhaps?

 

[Ark]

A alternative would be to contact the venom producer I listed earlier and have them send the venom to a lab to make ngf eye drops at 99.8% purity.

[resveratrol_guy]

A alternative would be to contact the venom producer I listed earlier and have them send the venom to a lab to make ngf eye drops at 99.8% purity.

 

This obviously isn't the "clean" way to do it, but we might have to resort to that. I'm also not sure how close it is to human NGF. Anyone?

 

 

[resveratrol_guy]

I just remembered that a friend of mine was the general manager at a small cosmetics manufacturer. So I phoned him up out of the blue and explained to him, in the most cagey possible way, what we need to do here. It turns out that he's no longer working at the manufacturer, but has various contacts in the industry. He said he'd email me back in a few days with suggested companies. Heck, while we're at it, maybe we can have some cosmetics vendor put it in an eye drop container and sell it as an actual product! Anyway I don't want to get anyone's hopes up, because this is a bureacratic pain in the butt, but it might work. In any event, don't let my own delays slow us down collectively. Keep the leads coming. This is hard.

 

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 11 June 2015 - 04:08 AM.

[metanoia]

very interested in this group buy.