13 replies to this topic

[sub7]

Hi Everyone,

This is my first post on this forum and I want to start by thanking everyone for the extremely useful and immense amount of information here.

I am a 32 yr old male, pretty active and in fairly good shape. However, I have chronic insomnia and am using several drugs (only using one at a time but rotating them to reduce chances of tolerance/dependence) for sleep. My first question is

CAN NOOTROPICS AGGRAVATE INSOMNIA?
Especially the Choline donors are said to cause tension in skeletal muscles and this scares me a little bit. I would appreciate any feedback. If you can, please mention specifically the nootropic compounds that insomiacs should be careful with.

Secondly, CAN SOMEONE RECOMMEND THE ORDER IN WHICH NEWBIES SHOULD ADD NOOTROPICS TO A STACK?
What I mean by that is all new users are warned to start with only a few basic compounds and experiment with them for a while before adding more nootropics to a "stack". I was unable to find anything, however, that talks about the order in which a basic stack should be built. Based on what I read, I am assuming a racetam and Choline donor is a good starting point. Should one start with just that? If so what next? and would one have to wait 2-3 weeks each time a new compound is added?

Finally WHAT IS THE EFFECT OF NOOTROPICS ON BODYBUILDING? (Brooklynjuice, you there?)
I know that the depletion of Acetylcholine can sometimes lead to the termination of a set during weight training. Also, ACh is also one of the chemicals that must be replenished during the rest periods between training sessions for full recovery (to the best of my knowledge). So if we take something that increases ACh levels, a) Would that overexcite the nervous system, leading to stronger contractions and maybe even make it easier to overtain? b) Make it easier to recover between workouts?

Thank you very much once again to everyone and have a great day.

Sub7

[Pablo M]

My answer, based on personal experience, would be most definitely yes. I for one could not possibly sleep after taking centrophenoxine. I take my noots early in the day so they don't keep me up.

Have you explored any other options for sleep-inducement, such as 5-HTP or melatonin?

[sub7]

melatonin did absolutely nothing for me, I have tried 5-HTP once but have recently bought another brand and will try.

Thanks for the feedback

Sub7

[catdaddy]

Many people report improved sleep quality supplementing with ZMA. For those who don't know, ZMA is a mix of Zinc, Magnesium, and B6. If you happen to have a deficiency in these nutrients, you're not going to experience optimal sleep quality or realize peak physical performance. I use and recommend this myself. Best price I've found(and uses aspartate forms of the minerals, much better absorption) is bulk nutrition's:

http://www.1fast400....roducts_id=1041

At 2 month's supply for 15.99, it's worth checking out. Read the user reviews for what others have had to say.
Hope this was helpful.

[sub7]

I have used ZMA on many occasions and still do. However for someone with chronic insomnia I doubt that it will do much. It is not hypnotic at all. Nevertheless, thank you very much for the tip.

Sub7

[Pablo M]

Catdaddy, doesn't ZMA dy definition include asparate forms? ZMA stands for Zinc-Magnesium-Aspartates, I believe.

Sub7, I would recommend you drastically increase physical activity one day, preferably early in the day. For me, that is often enough to reset my sleep clock for a few days.

[sub7]

Is it safe to assume that anything that is sold on the websites listed under the "suppliers" section of this site is legal?

Thanks

Sub7

[sub7]

I am sorry, the last post went into the wrong thread. Nevertheless I would like to know about the answer.

Sub7

[catdaddy]

dantecubit-
Ah yes, you are correct [thumb] . I had been looking at a number of products, some which don't explicitly state they use the aspartate forms (unscrupulous manufacturers trying to pass off a lower grade product to the uninformed, maybe...nah that would never happen ).

I sporadically use GABA before sleeping, as needed. For me, when taken in a dose of 2-5 grams, after a few minutes I experience a mild, warm full-body flush, perhaps something like niacin only without the extreme heat and itching. I consider it pleasant and relaxing. After a few minutes this subsides, and I coast off into dreamland.

sub7-
Yes, everything in the suppliers section is assumed to be legal. The forum moderators(LifeMirage, elrond, etc.) are well informed and would no doubt delete or make mention of anything that's not legit. But you should still check around multiple sources before buying(you know this).
Back to your original topic, I would suggest you post every drug and supplement you take. Critiquing stacks seems to be a popular pastime on this forum, and perhaps some fresh eyes could help out with your problem.
Best of luck- insomnia is no fun, to put it mildly.

[sub7]

catdaddy,

Thanks a lot for the feedback. You asked me to list my current stack. Right now I am not using any nootropics. Other than the sleep medicines that I take I only use a multivitamin, ZMA, caclium citrate and creatine. My main question was WHICH NOOTROPICS SHOULD I STAY AWAY FROM as I build a stack over the coming weeks. Since my insomnia is chronic I would not want to take any nootropics that may aggravate the situation. Any suggestions as to what I should not take?

Sub7

[catdaddy]

Ok, so you're not necessarily looking to add something to your regimen for the insomnia, but rather you want to avoid anything that could aggravate it.

Asking what not to take is rather a broad question. Maybe someone else can think of some specific items to avoid, but for now I would go along with the earlier suggestion to limit noots to early in the day, until you get a feel for your own responses.

As far as where to start, piracetam is super cheap and most people get some kind of positive response. Putting that together with a quality choline source would be a good starting point. I recommend Alpha GPC for your choline-its a little pricier, but in addition to being perhaps the best choline provider, it has nootropic activity of its own.
I would also suggest Acetyl L-Carnitine. I recently started taking ALCAR for it's whole host of benefits, including mental clarity, increased reaction time, energy, even crisper vision, just to mention a few. I liked it so much I just ordered a kilo from BN. I also take K-RALA for its ability to counter increased mitochondrial free radical generation that may occur when using ALCAR. Also noticed a pronounced sense of well being while on the ALCAR/K-RALA combo.

[sub7]

Catdaddy,
I really appreciate the response. I had also reached the same conclusion about starting with Piracetam and GCP and adding 1 or maybe 2 more items. So what you suggested sounds like a really good starting point. I am still a little bit worried about the choline donors and their potential to interfere with sleep but as far as I understand they are pretty much mandatory for most people when taking a racetam, so all I can do is adjust the GCP dosage carefully and hope for the best (while also trying to take them earlier during the day).

Any suggestions from other users -especially about insomnia effects of nootropics- would be greatly appreciated.

Sub7

[sub7]

I guess the question of "what Nootropics not to take if I have insomnia" was a little too broad. Would it be more meaningful to ask "are there any nootropics that would help someone with insomnia?" (I am talking about noots specifically, I am mostly aware of other herbal/medical compunds that are generally used for insomnia).

And, if I may, one more question: Can any of the nootropics interact with medicines? I am currently taking a few different medicines for insomnia (not all at once, rotating them to minimize tolerance/dependence risk) and was wondering if one should worry about potential interactions. So far I do not recall reading anything about notropics interacting with any kind of medicine...

Thanks to all once again for the help

Sub7