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"Best" SSRI, among other topics

ssri

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#1 LIB

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 07:01 AM


Been very clearly depressed basically my entire life. Very shy, people always telling me to cheer up, not a whole lot of interest and motivation in things most people have. Been hospitalized for depression a handful of times...you get the idea.

 

SSRI's I've tried

 

Zoloft - like that it didn't "fog" me up, but some reason the anxiety just got worse and worse on it

Paxil - Super foggy, lethargic, numb. Just wanted to sit inside and stare at the wall. Yuck, don't want to feel that again.

Effexor XR - Seemed to be pretty effective for 6 months or so, then it started to mess with my bladder function. Sending mixed signals due to epinephrine I assume.

 

Next 2 I'm thinking about asking my "p-doc" about are Prozac and Lexapro. My dad had my symptoms most of his life and has been on Lexapro for over a year and really likes it, and does well. However, I keep reading lexapro can make you quite lethargic, numb, etc. I wonder if he doesn't notice or complain about these affects because he was diagnosed with Parkinsons around the same time, and his dopamine is being treated with different meds as well. I bring up Prozac because I hear its one of the more stimulating SSRI's. In general I tend to seek/crave stimulants to give me energy/mood lift. Also get conflicting message with Prozac and dosage in terms of stimulating effect. Some say low dose Prozac will be more activating, others say the higher dose will. Any input? My P-doc is pretty open to suggestions so thats why I'm researching first.

 

I've tried many, many other things over the years to get "healthy" and try to live as normal life as possible so I'm not just turning to the pharmaceuticals because I've seen a few TV ads.  

 

 

 



#2 jly1986

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 08:42 AM

Hi LIB,

Just dropping a note to say I may be starting Prozac treatment myself starting this Friday.

Will report how things go.

From what I've read and been told by my p-doc, and as you may already know, response to SSRIs in general are highly variable, and no one really knows yet why it helps certain individuals, but not others (in other words, depression is more complex than can be explained by the theory of seratonin imbalance alone).

I think generally, 1/3 enjoy complete remission, 1/3 some improvement, and 1/3 no benefit at all. If you find yourself a non-responder, maybe SSRI's are not the way to go.

Take care.

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#3 LIB

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 09:46 AM

Totally agree on the depression is complex thing. Its just a label we use to apply to people that basically " don't feel good" upbeat, motivated, etc. Doesn't mean something is just a little off in their head, like serotonin. All sorts of systems in the body could be the real root cause. 

 

The people who do respond well probably, as best we know, needed and take advantage of the neurogenesis/BDNF increase that SSRI's provide. 



#4 lourdaud

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 10:54 AM

SSRI's are probably harmful, better avoid. 

Have you checked your thyroid status?


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#5 medievil

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 11:51 AM

SSRI's are probably harmful, better avoid.
Have you checked your thyroid status?

Apart from maybe prozac they have more neurorestorative then toxic effects, im sure both occur, i remember a study showing simular changes like what mdma causes to some sero neurons but imo with both that wont cause much notacible effects, offcourse ssris lack most of mdmas effects in rodents if its toxic for us.

Lexapro works twice as fast, has the least side effects, pretty much free of side effects in active doses and is slightly more effective then other ssris, its the cleanest and most selective and absolutely the best starting point, citalopram is a more dirty weaker ssri dont let a doc tell you its the same thing.
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#6 LIB

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 12:38 PM

SSRI's are probably harmful, better avoid. 

Have you checked your thyroid status?

 

Yep. All sorts of thyroid tests and ultrasounds. Even trial rounds of thyroid hormones, don't react well to them. 



#7 LIB

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 12:42 PM

 

SSRI's are probably harmful, better avoid.
Have you checked your thyroid status?

Apart from maybe prozac they have more neurorestorative then toxic effects, im sure both occur, i remember a study showing simular changes like what mdma causes to some sero neurons but imo with both that wont cause much notacible effects, offcourse ssris lack most of mdmas effects in rodents if its toxic for us.

Lexapro works twice as fast, has the least side effects, pretty much free of side effects in active doses and is slightly more effective then other ssris, its the cleanest and most selective and absolutely the best starting point, citalopram is a more dirty weaker ssri dont let a doc tell you its the same thing.

 

 

Hmm you do make good points about Lexapro. The link below is part of the reason I heard it was one of the more stimulating SSRI's. I guess I could always take my provigil/nuvigil if Lexapro works, but makes me a little lethargic.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11919662



#8 FW900

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 12:54 PM

My advice, you're asking the wrong question. You have already tried 3 different SSRIs and all of them were ineffective. Why do you think Prozac, Lexapro, or any other SSRI is going to make any difference? They all have very similar mechanism of actions and if you've responded poorly to 3, you'll likely respond poorly to even the "best" SSRI.

 

You should ask, "What's the best Antidepressant?". Rather than an SSRI, you should look into monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs) like selegiline (EMSAM) and phenylzine. They are highly effective and it will take less of a period of time than an SSRI for MAOIs take effect as an antidepressant. MAOIs show great efficacy for treating depression in people who do not respond well to SSRIs.


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#9 LIB

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 01:12 PM

My advice, you're asking the wrong question. You have already tried 3 different SSRIs and all of them were ineffective. Why do you think Prozac, Lexapro, or any other SSRI is going to make any difference? They all have very similar mechanism of actions and if you've responded poorly to 3, you'll likely respond poorly to even the "best" SSRI.

 

You should ask, "What's the best Antidepressant?". Rather than an SSRI, you should look into monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs) like selegiline (EMSAM) and phenylzine. They are highly effective and it will take less of a period of time than an SSRI for MAOIs take effect as an antidepressant. MAOIs show great efficacy for treating depression in people who do not respond well to SSRIs.

 

Valid point. I've tried selegiline in the past. Just kinda made me irritable and antsy. But it is a good question to bring up to the P-doc. I've tried a handful of SSRI's, what now?



#10 lourdaud

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 04:23 PM

 

SSRI's are probably harmful, better avoid. 

Have you checked your thyroid status?

 

Yep. All sorts of thyroid tests and ultrasounds. Even trial rounds of thyroid hormones, don't react well to them. 

 

 

Checked your testosterone levels as well?

 

 

SSRI's are probably harmful, better avoid.
Have you checked your thyroid status?

Apart from maybe prozac they have more neurorestorative then toxic effects, im sure both occur, i remember a study showing simular changes like what mdma causes to some sero neurons but imo with both that wont cause much notacible effects, offcourse ssris lack most of mdmas effects in rodents if its toxic for us.

For a substance to be "neuro-restorative", it should leave you in a better state when you quit it. An SSRI will leave you worse off. 

Tianeptine, bupropion and hydergine are some of few real anti-depressants in my book.



#11 jly1986

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 04:25 PM

I've tried a handful of SSRI's, what now?


How about opioids?

#12 jly1986

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 05:29 PM

I've tried a handful of SSRI's, what now?

How about opioids?

For example: buprenorphine in ALKS 5461 ...

Novel Opioid Modulator Acts Quickly to Alleviate Depression

Fran Lowry
June 03, 2013

HOLLYWOOD, Florida — Data from a phase 2 study show encouraging results with a new opioid modulator, ALKS 5461, for the treatment of major depression that is resistant to standard therapy, new research suggests.

"This would be a drug that, providing our findings are confirmed in phase 3 trials, would be very helpful for patients who do not respond adequately to SSRIs [selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors] or SNRIs [serotonin-norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors]," principal investigator Maurizio Fava, MD, Slater Family Professor of Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, Boston, Massachusetts, told Medscape Medical News.

"The magnitude of effect seen with ALKS 5461 in this study is highly significant, dramatic, and quick," he said.

The findings were presented here at the New Clinical Drug Evaluation Unit (NCDEU) 53rd Annual Meeting.

Abuse Potential Minimized

The endogenous opioid system is thought to play a key role in the regulation of mood, but the use of opioids for depression is limited by the potential for drug abuse, presumably as a result of mu opioid agonism.

ALKS 5461 is a coformulation of the partial mu agonist buprenorphine (BUP), combined with ALKS 33, a counteracting mu antagonist designed to yield a nonaddictive opioid modulator.

"There has long been clinical evidence that some depressed people obtain symptomatic relief from opiates, though concerns about addiction and tolerance of effect, as well as the abuse potential of this class of medication, has essentially precluded exploring the therapeutic potential of this class of drugs," coinvestigator Michael E. Thase, MD, professor of psychiatry at the Perelman School of Medicine, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, told Medscape Medical News.

"These data, using a formulation of opiate agonist and antagonists that greatly minimizes the potential for misuse, provide encouraging evidence about adjunctive antidepressant effects in patients who did not respond to conventional medications," Dr. Thase said. "Although further study is clearly needed, a positive proof-of-concept study such as this can provide the impetus for such research."

Unique Study Design

In the current phase 2 trial, the investigators enrolled 142 patients with major depressive disorder and inadequate response to SSRI or SNRI therapy.

They used a blinded sequential parallel comparison design (SPCD) that consisted of 2 4-week treatment stages, the Initial Study Stage and a Successive Study Stage.

The SPCD was designed to reduce the impact of a clinically meaningful response to treatment with placebo, Dr. Fava explained.
Dr. Maurizio Fava

"In the first phase, all patients are randomized to drug or placebo, but with more patients randomized to placebo than to drug. At the end of the first phase, the placebo nonresponders get rerandomized to either stay on placebo or go on active treatment," he said.

Both phases evaluated 2 doses of ALKS 5461: 2-mg BUP/2-mg ALKS 33; 8-mg BUP/8-mg ALKS 33; and matching placebo.

The results showed that ALKS 5461 significantly reduced depressive symptoms across a range of standard measures, including the study's primary outcome measure, the Hamilton Depression Rating Scale (P = .026), as well as secondary measures, including the Montgomery-Åsberg Depression Rating Scale (P = .004) and the Clinical Global Impression–Severity Scale (P = .035).

The compound was well tolerated, Dr. Fava said. The most common adverse events were nausea, headache, and dizziness.

"It's possible that lower doses may work as well, and this might help minimize further risk of side effects," he added.

Mood Enhancers

Richard C. Shelton, MD, Charles Byron Ireland Chair of Psychiatric Research at the University of Alabama at Birmingham, said that ALKS 5461 is a very interesting combination drug that is likely to be helpful for a range of depressed patients.

"It has been clear for a long time that some people experience an antidepressant effect with narcotic medications. In fact, it is one of the main reasons why some people become addicted," he told Medscape Medical News.

"I have seen many patients who do not take narcotics to get high — in fact, the drugs are usually prescribed for pain — but they become addicted anyway. The consistent thing I've been told by those patients is that the narcotic medications make them 'feel normal' or less 'down' or distressed," Dr. Shelton, who was not part of the study, said.

"The problem with traditional narcotics is that the effects diminish over time due to downregulation of the mu receptor, which requires escalating doses of drugs like morphine or heroin. But that doesn't happen with buprenorphine, especially with ALKS 33 added. In addition, buprenorphine blocks kappa receptors, which also has direct antidepressant effects," he said.

The compound is likely to find a niche in the treatment of combined mood disorders and addiction, particularly narcotic addictions. "However, I don't think that will be its exclusive use," Dr. Shelton said.

The key question is, Will ALKS 5461 be effective over the long term?, he added.

"My observation with buprenorphine is that the effects usually are sustained," he said.

The study was supported by Alkermes, Inc. Dr. Fava and Dr. Thase report financial relationships with Alkermes. Dr. Shelton reports no relevant financial relationships.

New Clinical Drug Evaluation Unit (NCDEU) 53rd Annual Meeting. Abstract presented May 31, 2013.

http://www.medscape....warticle/805197

Edited by jly1986, 16 September 2014 - 06:04 PM.


#13 FW900

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 10:47 PM

 

My advice, you're asking the wrong question. You have already tried 3 different SSRIs and all of them were ineffective. Why do you think Prozac, Lexapro, or any other SSRI is going to make any difference? They all have very similar mechanism of actions and if you've responded poorly to 3, you'll likely respond poorly to even the "best" SSRI.

 

You should ask, "What's the best Antidepressant?". Rather than an SSRI, you should look into monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs) like selegiline (EMSAM) and phenylzine. They are highly effective and it will take less of a period of time than an SSRI for MAOIs take effect as an antidepressant. MAOIs show great efficacy for treating depression in people who do not respond well to SSRIs.

 

Valid point. I've tried selegiline in the past. Just kinda made me irritable and antsy. But it is a good question to bring up to the P-doc. I've tried a handful of SSRI's, what now?

 

 

Possible things to discuss with your psychiatrist:

 

MAOIs are your first option. Selegiline is unique and you may have only been taking the dosage needed to inhibit MAO-B. The anti-depressant effect starts when MAO-A is inhibited. Other MAOIs like phenelzine and parnate are used to treat anxiety disorders which would likely produce the opposite effect of feeling antsy.

 

Tricyclic antidepressants (TCAs): http://en.wikipedia...._antidepressant

 

Stimulants: http://www.ncbi.nlm....cles/PMC427614/

If he prescribes a stimulant for depression, make sure it is not Adderall or a short acting stimulant like methylphenidate. It will only produce more peripheral side effects in comparison to Dexedrine, Desoxyn or Vyvanse.

 

Ketamine: http://jop.sagepub.c...527361.abstract

Infusion clinics exist. Theoretically he could write you a prescription.

 

Things not to discuss and research on your own accord:

 

NSI-189: http://www.neuralste...-for-depression


Edited by FW900, 16 September 2014 - 10:49 PM.

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#14 jaiho

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 05:08 AM

Prozac was very good for me. then i stopped and started it too many times and it no longer works like it used to.

The good thing about it over other SSRIs is it increases dopamine and Noradrenaline more than effexor 



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#15 foreseason

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 05:43 PM

Not to be a downer, but it's imperative to realize that the pharmaceutical industry is corrupt and, like any big business,  primarily concerned with revenue.  Don't be fooled into thinking the newest drug is going to be the most effective.  They've been "tweaking" SSRI/SSNRI's for years for no reason other than finding a way to make more money on the same drug.  Their patents expire and they basically repackage the same drug with a new name and minimal improvements.  Sadly, many doctors drink this kool aid or receive some kind of kickback for prescribing the latest and greatest.

 

Best advice I can give is take part in your health care. Find a doctor who is open minded and will work with you as opposed to just telling you what to do.   You are the one who has to swallow the pill and live with the results.  We are blessed to live in this age of information.  Read, Research, Study!    It is not uncommon for me to know more about a medication or treatment than my doc.

 

I have run the frustrating antidepressant gamut over the last 10 years or so.

 

What i've tried:

SSRI/SSNRI: Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil, Lexapro, Celexa, Cymbalta, Effexor, Pristiq

 

Pretty worthless as far as I'm concerned.  Any benefits were short lived and probably placebo.   Studies have shown many times over that SSRI's are no more effective than a sugar pill.  Not saying they can't be effective, but they were for me. 

 

Tricyclics: Imipramine, Clomipramine

 

Only tried a couple of this class.  More side effects and similarly ineffective.

 

MAOI: Nardil (Phenelzine)

 

Like flipping a switch.  Far from perfect, but by far the best AD I've ever taken.  Initial side effects can be pretty rough, but many do fade over time.  Notorious for causing insomnia.  Also Notorious for their dietary restrictions.  Although very real, they have been found to be a bit overblown.  Many people eat just about anything they want with no problems.  A reaction can be severe though so I personally don't mess with it.  In the 18 months I have been on Nardil I have had zero dietary reactions. 

 

Interested in an MAOI?  Find an open minded doctor and be prepared to try some other meds first.  It's very rare for a doc to be willing to prescribe an MAOI right off the bat. 

 

 


Edited by foreseason, 17 September 2014 - 05:48 PM.

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