31 replies to this topic

[kenth619]

Hello,

I am relatively new to nootropics; I started using Noopept in June. I bought mine from nootropics.net (30mg with 100mg choline bitartrate added). While using it for the first few weeks, it felt like it was having no effect. That was when I decided to add fish oil. I started taking 1000 mg x 2 fish oil capsules daily with the noopept and experienced the sought after effects: ability to speak more fluently, better short term memory, ect. I was truely impressed with it.

Then I decided to add Alpha-GPC (Now-Foods brand) to my stack. This was in July. The bottle stated that the recommended dosage was 300 mg x 2 capsules twice daily. I was a bit cautious and decided to use 300 mg x 2 capsules daily instead. Big Mistake!!!

I have stopped all nootropics in an attempt to return to baseline since July. It is now October and I experience occasional dizziness and difficulty concentrating on tasks. Also I feel thirsty all the time. If I go without food for a while I get dizzy. I took a blood pressure test and the person told my I have low blood pressure 102/52. At first I thought it was the fish oil because people use it for hypertension treatment. I started taking Iron and B12 (Trihemic 600) and sure enough my blood pressure rose to 120/57 but the diastolic pressure was still low. After a few days off the Iron tablets it would fall back down to 102/52.

I am starting to assume now that the Alpha GPC affected my Parasympathetic nervous system, resulting in dilated blood vessels and blood pressure drop. I still find it hard to focus on tasks and I get dizziness on and off. Please, please I am appealing to anyone that may have had a similar experience using Alpha GPC to offer some kind of advice as to the way to move forward. Is there something I should take that will help with recovery or is this just a matter of waiting for it to pass out of my system? I have already waited 3 months and still no change is taking place. This has me scared right now that it could be a permanent problem. I know people will reply by saying that Alpha GPC is safe and so on. But I was under the recommended dosage and look at what happened. If my condition improves with time, I will be sure to update this topic accordingly. Anyways, thanks guys for any advice provided.

[StevesPetRat]

Increasing sympathetic neurotransmitters should help. You can use methylfolate or possibly mild MAOi supplements. There is also the conventional wisdom that piracetam lowers acetylcholine.

You may also want to remove choline sources like eggs and lecithin from your diet, at least for now.

[Area-1255]

Are you taking anything else that would block nicotinic acetylcholine receptors? Usually acetylcholine being increased would not lower your blood pressure significantly considering nitoctinics would balance out activation of muscarinics by means of voltage control/stimulation. 

There are a few exceptions however..

 

-You are antagonizing nicotinics unknowingly by a substance of sorts, this can even be by herbals, leaving muscarinics to be occupied which would lower your BP

-You have naturally lower nicotinic receptors.

-You have a dopamine beta hydroxylase deficiency ; leading to an already parasympathetically dominant nervous system, with borderline or full autonomic dysfunction. 

 

However, the third one is fairly rare, and you would have many other signs, and low norepinephrine in blood work and you would already have low blood pressure before that.

So I think given your input, it's one of the first two.

 

However, the persistence of this sounds like your acetylcholine shot way up due to a sensitivity of sorts, or perhaps a preservative in the alpha gpc supplement triggered a sensitivity reaction or an additional histamine response - this might be more plausible. 

It seems like you may have some other issues that aren't being looked at, or perhaps you have less AcHe, which is the enzyme that breaks down acetylcholine.

 

Though it is rare, there is a mutation/gene sequence that causes one to have less acetylcholine breakdown and / or increased muscarinic receptors naturally.

The second one is present in high I.Q individuals....

 

 

Edited by Area-1255, 17 October 2014 - 12:41 PM.

[ceridwen]

Iron tablets might exacerbate things unless you actually have an iron deficiency. I would not advise them

[kenth619]

Thank you for the responses, they have been encouraging. I am not using anything that would block nicotinic acetylcholine receptors (I rarely used medication before this happened and I am a perfectly normal healthy individual). I will stop using Iron tablets as ceridwen suggested and I have stopped consuming other choline sources as StevesPetRat suggested.

 

Area-1255 your response made me do further research and I was looking at the Alpha-GPC ingredients label. It was then I realized what may have caused my condition. It contains Mannitol as a preservative to prevent humidification. According to this research journal, Mannitol is used to elicit a hypotensive response.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....ov/pubmed/32802

 

I used choline bitartrate before and never had problems. The question is would mannitol cause persistent hypotension over the course of 2-3 months given the fact that I only used 600mg of Alpha GPC daily over a short period (4 days). If not then Area-1255 your other assumptions may indeed be correct.

 

Anyways, my blood pressure is currently 109/55 and I experience the fatigue and dizziness but it seems to be fluctating. Do you suggest I wait it out for symptoms to improve or should I seek medical advice (what type of doctor is the best to seek advice from? Neurologist?). Looking forward to any responses.

Edited by kenth619, 17 October 2014 - 03:49 PM.

[Area-1255]

Thank you for the responses, they have been encouraging. I am not using anything that would block nicotinic acetylcholine receptors (I rarely used medication before this happened and I am a perfectly normal healthy individual). I will stop using Iron tablets as ceridwen suggested and I have stopped consuming other choline sources as StevesPetRat suggested.

 

Area-1255 your response made me do further research and I was looking at the Alpha-GPC ingredients label. It was then I realized what may have caused my condition. It contains Mannitol as a preservative to prevent humidification. According to this research journal, Mannitol is used to elicit a hypotensive response.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....ov/pubmed/32802

 

I used choline bitartrate before and never had problems. The question is would mannitol cause persistent hypotension over the course of 2-3 months given the fact that I only used 600mg of Alpha GPC daily over a short period (4 days). If not then Area-1255 your other assumptions may indeed be correct. My blood pressure is currently 109/55 and I experience fatigue and dizziness. Do you suggest I wait it out for symptoms to improve or should I seek medical advice (what type of doctor is the best to seek advice from? Neurologist?). Looking forward to any responses.

I doubt it, that's very odd if it has persisted this long. I would see a neurologist as well as a medical doctor; get the referral from the M.D, research into "dysautonomia" or sympathetic deficits....

Check your adrenal hormones like cortisol and ACTH - tell your doc you are concerned you might have dysautonomia...

Have him order a 24 hr urine test for metanephrine and normetanephrine. These are adrenaline metabolites... also test 5-ht1aa , a serotonin metabolite, 24 hr urine also.

[RJ100]

That paper states they induced hypotension with "rapid intravenous administration of mannitol, 25 per cent, in clinical doses" - I don't think you're replicating that by taking 300mg of Alpha-GPC orally.

 

I also have low blood pressure and focusing trouble after simultaneously upping choline intake while strongly inhibiting AChE. (my bp was already on the low-end, but now it's even lower)

[kenth619]

Will do, will update this thread when I receive more information. Thanks again for the informative replies.

Edited by kenth619, 17 October 2014 - 03:51 PM.

[Area-1255]

That paper states they induced hypotension with "rapid intravenous administration of mannitol, 25 per cent, in clinical doses" - I don't think you're replicating that by taking 300mg of Alpha-GPC orally.

 

I also have low blood pressure and focusing trouble after simultaneously upping choline intake while strongly inhibiting AChE. (my bp was already on the low-end, but now it's even lower)

I've taken like three natural but potent AcHe inhibitors plus agpc and choline before, my blood pressure never went up on it ....genetics I suppose.

 

You two might also be copper deficient, this can also increase susceptibility to low blood pressure and low CNS activity....as well as dopamine beta hydroxylase deficiency....do either of you eat tons of wheat products? Wheat in excess inhibits sympathetic activity and DBH as well!

 

Estrogen levels also correlate with muscarinic vs nicotinic densities.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15741743

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20193677

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15062561

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11752213

 

 

Estrogen seems to potentiate nicotinic receptors and may selectively decrease or increase muscarinics...decrease m1-5 in the hippocampus but likely raising m receptors in other area's like the hypothalamus.

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/7407591

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/3378147

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11752213

 

What this means is that testosterone essentially, aromatized forms of it - do affect m receptor densities...

[RJ100]

I don't know what my copper and estrogen levels are, tbh. I hardly eat wheat - I do eat lots of oats. I don't know if/how/why the low bp fits in.

 

I felt terrible, mentally, after I perhaps put myself into a hypercholinergic state. - http://www.longecity...makes-you-dumb/

 

I feel better now after a week of cutting down on choline (zero supplements, halving egg consumption) and only taking one AChe inhibitor at a time (instead of 4-5!)

 

re muscarinic vs nicotinic - this is above my head, but I suppose I'd better read up on it. Thanks for the links.

Edited by RJ100, 17 October 2014 - 05:13 PM.

[Area-1255]

I don't know what my copper and estrogen levels are, tbh. I hardly eat wheat - I do eat lots of oats. I don't know if/how/why the low bp fits in.

 

I felt terrible, mentally, after I perhaps put myself into a hypercholinergic state. - http://www.longecity...makes-you-dumb/

 

I feel better now after a week of cutting down on choline (zero supplements, halving egg consumption) and only taking one AChe inhibitor at a time (instead of 4-5!)

 

re muscarinic vs nicotinic - this is above my head, but I suppose I'd better read up on it. Thanks for the links.

Excess acetylcholine would be very noticeable...you would feel lethargic, have restless legs type symptoms - dysphoric/anhedonic, and you would probably be terrible pessismistic and have some social anxiety.

Low acetylcholine is like extroverted, often hostile, aggressive , competitive, and very jittery. 

Of course, it's not that black and white because there are so many factors, that just happens to be a very accurate representation  - but what factors are causing the high or low levels are much more important. 

Also take note it is possible to have high dopamine and low serotonin - but very very rare...low serotonin and low dopamine usually go together..and because dopamine has agonistic effects on serotonin receptors via cross talk...this should be a major gameplayer in depression overall....dopamine is more of a root to any mental disorder, but largely low levels of dopamine ; and this is associated ;with depression, ;lack of emotions, lack of quality of life, inability to feel pleasure, reduced pain impulses and reduced empathy. 

Low dopamine individuals may have either high glutamate, or high acetylcholine, or super high GABA....but ironically, the most common cause of low dopamine is actually hormone imbalance. 

 

Thyroid deficiency being number 1, and testosterone being low would be another one. 

 

If you are in an optimal hormonal state, most of the groundwork for other messengers should be in your favor...

Unfortunately, the basic cues can be misinterpreted, and so blood work plus common sense and study , as well as being in tune with your own body is immensely important.

 

non aromatizable Androgens (incapable of estrogen conversion, like dht and 3- alpha diol) differentially modulate receptors..they normally work to reduce excess glutamate, and prime GABA activity, they also are very important for preventing stroke and preventing blood pressure from going to low or rising too high.

 

Estrogen from testosterone, as testosterone crosses the bbb more readily, is mainly acting opposite to androgens, generally increasing glutamatergic activity...but is also involved in vasopressin, oxytocin, serotonin and many other receptor expressions....and muscarinic / nicotinc...estrogen receptor alpha is stimulatory, but estrogen receptor beta is inhibitory...tht's why people or rats born without estrogen receptor beta or having an eralpha mutation tend to have overstimulated personalities.

[RJ100]

Excess acetylcholine would be very noticeable...you would feel lethargic, have restless legs type symptoms - dysphoric/anhedonic, and you would probably be terrible pessismistic and have some social anxiety

 

 

 

That's me. Just much much worse with high choline/AChe inhibitors. Plus brain fog on top of it, which I don't normally have.

 

My thyroid T3 & T4 are on the low end of normal. Don't know about test. Don't know about dopamine either, but it's likely low given my personality.

 

My bbb is leaky. Aspartate and the free glutamic acid from MSG sends my mind racing via NMDA, and oral GABA puts me in a stupor, which it shouldn't.

 

On top of that I have a genetic urea cycle issue with ammonia, which is the one thing that I actually have in check.

 

But yeah, hopefully my very low bp goes back up now.

Edited by RJ100, 17 October 2014 - 07:25 PM.

[kenth619]

Excess acetylcholine would be very noticeable...you would feel lethargic, have restless legs type symptoms - dysphoric/anhedonic, and you would probably be terrible pessismistic and have some social anxiety.

 

I am not lethargic or anhedonic but everything else you just described is me in a nutshell. If its any help my symptoms appear to subside when I take B-complex together with vitamin C (slight increase in diastolic bp). Will report back as soon as I get results from the dysautonomia test.

[Area-1255]

 

Excess acetylcholine would be very noticeable...you would feel lethargic, have restless legs type symptoms - dysphoric/anhedonic, and you would probably be terrible pessismistic and have some social anxiety.

 

I am not lethargic or anhedonic but everything else you just described is me in a nutshell. If its any help my symptoms appear to subside when I take B-complex together with vitamin C (slight increase in diastolic bp). Will report back as soon as I get results from the dysautonomia test.

 

Ok that sounds like possible dopamine beta hydroxylase deficiency...because that's the common denominator..both b-complex and vitamin c would stimulate dopamine beta hydroxylase....do you seek thrills or practice sensation seeking? Do you get amplified endorphin rushes by doing risky things?

[kenth619]

What is dopamine beta-hydroxylase deficiency?

 

Dopamine beta (β)-hydroxylase deficiency is a condition that affects the autonomic nervous system, which controls involuntary body processes such as the regulation of blood pressure and body temperature. Problems related to this disorder can first appear during infancy. Early signs and symptoms may include episodes of vomiting, dehydration, decreased blood pressure (hypotension), difficulty maintaining body temperature, and low blood sugar (hypoglycemia).

Individuals with dopamine β-hydroxylase deficiency typically experience a sharp drop in blood pressure upon standing (orthostatic hypotension), which can cause dizziness, blurred vision, or fainting. This sudden drop in blood pressure is usually more severe when getting out of bed in the morning, during hot weather, and as a person gets older. People with dopamine β-hydroxylase deficiency experience extreme fatigue during exercise (exercise intolerance) due to their problems maintaining a normal blood pressure.

Other features of dopamine β-hydroxylase deficiency include droopy eyelids (ptosis), nasal congestion, and an inability to stand for a prolonged period of time. Affected males may also experience retrograde ejaculation, a discharge of semen backwards into the bladder. Less common features include an unusually large range of joint movement (hypermobility) and muscle weakness.

 

How common is dopamine beta-hydroxylase deficiency?

 

Dopamine β-hydroxylase deficiency is a very rare disorder. Fewer than 20 affected individuals, all of Western European descent, have been described in the scientific literature.

→ source (external link)

 

I am very doubtful this is the cause because I have never experienced those symptoms before. Do you seek thrills or practice sensation seeking? No I don't. Do you get amplified endorphin rushes by doing risky things? No.

 

-You have naturally lower nicotinic receptors.

 

...It seems like you may have some other issues that aren't being looked at, or perhaps you have less AcHe, which is the enzyme that breaks down acetylcholine...

 

Though it is rare, there is a mutation/gene sequence that causes one to have less acetylcholine breakdown and / or increased muscarinic receptors naturally.

The second one is present in high I.Q individuals....

 

If anything my money is on one of these 3 things you indicated earlier. It could just be that vitamin C, folate and B12 stimulate the sympathetic nervous system which was my intention for taking them.
 

Edited by kenth619, 17 October 2014 - 08:36 PM.

[kenth619]

Just an update, I saw a GP today. He said my pulse value was normal but he suspects I have a low blood count upon doing further inspections. He put me on Stugeron Forte 75mg (1/2 tablet twice daily with food) and Apo-Alpraz .25mg (1/2 tablet three times daily no alcohol). He said to take this for 1 week and if I do not feel better by then, I should have blood tests done (CBC, Sickle Cell Screen and FBS). Will post another update when that 1 week is up.

[kenth619]

I will be going for the blood test this weekend since the medication does not seem to be doing anything in terms of improving my symptoms. This is my theory thus far...

 

• What I have noticed is that when I do not eat on time especially skipping breakfast or am not adquately hydrated, my symptoms are exacerbated. When I do aerobic exercise the same happens.
• Symptoms are not experienced once this is adhered to.
• B-complex and vitamin C seemed to improve my low diastolic blood pressure although it seems to have plateaued now just below regular blood pressure (68).
• Symptoms include low DBP, thirst, difficulty thinking (brain fog of sorts), shakiness and dry and clammy hands.

This has led me to believe that I have stage 1 adrenal fatigue because the symptoms point to this. Take a look at this journal:

 

http://jp.physoc.org.../1/605.full.pdf

 

Though it is rare, there is a mutation/gene sequence that causes one to have less acetylcholine breakdown and / or increased muscarinic receptors naturally.

The second one is present in high I.Q individuals....

 

I believe it is the latter. Just some background information about me. I am an Electrical Engineer, would consider myself high I.Q. and an unusually quiet person from since I was a child (introverted / gifted).

 

What I believed happened is that upon taking the Alpha-GPC, because I have increased muscarinic receptors, this caused my adrenal cortisol levels to spike, in essence mimicking the response to high levels of stress. This caused my adrenals to become overworked and eventually become fatigued. The recovery time for stage 1 adrenal fatigue is typically 6 - 8 months. My symptoms seem to be improving but at a slow rate.

 

Would really like to hear what you guys think about my theory, especially you Area-1255. Now I just have to convince my M.D. to conduct the test to verify my hypothesis.

 

Edited by kenth619, 06 November 2014 - 03:59 PM.

[Area-1255]

I will be going for the blood test this weekend since the medication does not seem to be doing anything in terms of improving my symptoms. This is my theory thus far...

 

• What I have noticed is that when I do not eat on time especially skipping breakfast or am not adquately hydrated, my symptoms are exacerbated. When I do aerobic exercise the same happens.
• Symptoms are not experienced once this is adhered to.
• B-complex and vitamin C seemed to improve my low diastolic blood pressure although it seems to have plateaued now just below regular blood pressure (68).
• Symptoms include low DBP, thirst, difficulty thinking (brain fog of sorts), shakiness and dry and clammy hands.

This has led me to believe that I have stage 1 adrenal fatigue because the symptoms point to this. Take a look at this journal:

 

http://jp.physoc.org.../1/605.full.pdf

 

Though it is rare, there is a mutation/gene sequence that causes one to have less acetylcholine breakdown and / or increased muscarinic receptors naturally.

The second one is present in high I.Q individuals....

 

I believe it is the latter. Just some background information about me. I am an Electrical Engineer, would consider myself high I.Q. and an unusually quiet person from since I was a child (introverted / gifted).

 

What I believed happened is that upon taking the Alpha-GPC, because I have increased muscarinic receptors, this caused my adrenal cortisol levels to spike, in essence mimicking the response to high levels of stress. This caused my adrenals to become overworked and eventually become fatigued. The recovery time for stage 1 adrenal fatigue is typically 6 - 8 months. My symptoms seem to be improving but at a slow rate.

 

Would really like to hear what you guys think about my theory, especially you Area-1255. Now I just have to convince my M.D. to conduct the test to verify my hypothesis.

 

It's only by Muscarinic receptor M3 that acetylcholine increases ACTH and CORTISOL.

UNLESS in response to hypoglycemia, then other receptors become involved. http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/2827420

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/2169595

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/1963158

http://books.google....on ACTH&f=false

 

Berberine should take care of this as it blocks muscarinic type 3 only and it also antagonizes 5-ht4 serotonin receptors which can cause simulated stress response.You still want the benefits of M1/M2.

 

 

Phytomedicine. 2006;13 Suppl 5:51-5. Epub 2006 Sep 14.

Binding of STW 5 (Iberogast) and its components to intestinal 5-HT, muscarinic M3, and opioid receptors.

Simmen U1, Kelber O, Okpanyi SN, Jaeggi R, Bueter B, Weiser D.

Author information

 

Abstract

Clinical studies with the fixed herbal combination product STW 5 (Iberogast) have indicated an efficacy comparable to metoclopramide (5-HT(3) antagonist) and cisapride (5-HT(4) agonist) in functional gastro-intestinal diseases like functional dyspepsia (FD) and irritable bowel syndrome (IBS). Since serotonin (5-HT(3) and 5-HT(4)) and muscarinic M(3) receptors are known to play a central role in the etiology of FD and IBS, the extracts contained in STW 5 and several of their phytochemical components were studied in vitro for binding affinities to these receptors of the intestine. STW 5 inhibited the binding of (3)H-GR113808 and (3)H-4-DAMP to 5-HT(4) and M(3) receptors, respectively, about 10 times more potently than the binding of (3)H-GR65630 to 5-HT(3) receptors. IC(50) values for STW 5 did correspond to extract dilutions of 1:1000 (M(3) binding) and 1:2000 (5-HT(4) binding). In addition, STW 5 also potently inhibited the binding to opioid receptors with an IC(50) value of 1:2000. Of the nine herbal extracts contained in STW 5, the fresh plant extract of bitter candy tuft (Iberis amara) selectively inhibited binding to M(3) receptors, while ethanolic extracts of celandine herb and chamomile flower were selective to 5-HT(4), and liquorice root to 5-HT(3) receptors. Binding affinities to human recombinant 5-HT(3), 5-HT(4) and M(3) receptors were qualitatively similar to those of the corresponding intestinal receptors. The benzylisoquinoline alkaloid berberine had significant inhibitory action on 5-HT(4) and M(3) binding, showing IC(50) values of 40 ng/ml (100 nM) and 200 ng/ml (500 nM), respectively, but is present in the extract of celandine herb only in traces, so that also for the celandine extract a cooperative effect of several phytochemical constituents can be assumed. These in vitro data indicate that 5-HT(4) (to a lesser degree 5-HT(3)), muscarinic M(3), and opioid receptors represent target sites for the treatment of FD and IBS with STW 5 (Iberogast).

PMID:   16973340   [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]  

[kenth619]

I did an experiment over this past weekend. I took 250 mg of choline bitartate on Friday evening to test if there would be any reaction. Usually I never have a bad reaction to the stuff. Took a blood pressure reading on Friday (116/69).

 

By Saturday and Sunday, I experienced severe dizziness while walking. A blood pressure test revealed blood pressure to be at (101/52) on Saturday evening.

 

By Monday I felt better again (same as I felt when blood pressure was 116/69). Today (Tuesday) I feel like my blood pressure is returning to normal, but I feel extremely lethargic / fatigued. I feel like I did not sleep the night before. I am starting to believe this is a choline overdose, although there is the lack of the typically experienced tension headache. Maybe it is because I am choline dominant. It seems to be sorting itself out finally after three months, which is a good sign.

 

CBC, Sickle Cell Screen and FBS tests should be back by this evening. Will be very interested to see what they yield and will share as they come in.

[kenth619]

These are my lab results:

 

Test Date 08/11/2014 10:15AM

 

Test                              Results                Unit                Normal Ranges
Fasting Blood Sugar    81                        mg/dl             75-100
Sickle Cell Screen       Negative               -                    For Positive Sickle Cell Screen, HB Electrophoresis testing recommended for confirmation
White Cell Count         6.4                       103/mm3        4.0 – 10.0
Neutrophils %              52.4                      %                  40.0 – 80.0
Lymphocytes %           32.3                      %                  20.0 – 40.0
Monocytes %              10.6 (HIGH)           %                 2.0 – 10.0
Eosinophils %              4.4                        %                 1.0 – 6.0
Basophils %                 0.3                        %                 0.2 – 2.0
Red Cell Count            4.06 (LOW)           mil/mm3       4.50 – 5.50
Hemoglobin                 13.5                       g/dL             13.0 – 17.0
Hematocrit                   41                          %                 40 – 50
MCV                            102 (HIGH)            fL                 83 – 101
MCH                            33.4 (HIGH)           Pg               27.0 – 32.0
MCHC                         32.5                       g/dL             31.5 – 34.5
RDW                           10.9 (LOW)            %                11.6 – 14.0
Platelets                      192                        10/mm3       150 – 410
MPV                             9.2                         fL                7.0 – 11.0
Definitive Flags            1+ Macrocytosis  

 

Would someone who understands how to read these things care to explain what it means?

Edited by kenth619, 11 November 2014 - 11:18 PM.

[StevesPetRat]

Would someone who understands how to read these things care to explain what it means?

I'm not a medical doctor, but that seems likely to be a mild B12, folate, copper or iron deficiency. Less likely is some chronic infection or autoimmune condition blowing up your RBC's.

[kenth619]

It has been about a month and I have since been feeling much better. I was using b12 (methyl cobalamin) to treat my low blood count. I decided to stop using GPC and return to using choline bitartrate. I took 250mg bitartrate x2 in the morning and evening as accustomed in the past. It would improve my sleep and energy levels. The next morning I took 250mg again. That day the same low blood count symptoms came back! I immediately took b12 and thankfully it did not take months for me to recover like when I took the GPC. What has changed guys? What does this mean?

[Area-1255]

Maybe B12 deficiency? Histamine deficiency is also possible.

[kenth619]

2015-01-11: Compared to how I was feeling in October, I am better but still I do not feel 100% back to normal. I don't get the dizziness anymore. However, my hands and mouth feel dry all the time like a dehydrated feeling. My heart beat feels more pronounced and faster than usual. I have also noticed days where these symptoms are mild and then other days where they feel more severe (like a cycle of some sort). I've also noticed on days where its more severe I get a sensation in my head like small vibrations but no pain or headache. I did not use to feel this way before using Alpha-GPC. I just hope this is some kind of temporary side effect and that this is not permanent discomfort because that would really suck .

Edited by kenth619, 11 January 2015 - 08:48 PM.

[Area-1255]

2015-01-11: Compared to how I was feeling in October, I am better but still I do not feel 100% back to normal. I don't get the dizziness anymore. However, my hands and mouth feel dry all the time like a dehydrated feeling. My heart beat feels more pronounced and faster than usual. I have also noticed days where these symptoms are mild and then other days where they feel more severe (like a cycle of some sort). I've also noticed on days where its more severe I get a sensation in my head like small vibrations but no pain or headache. I did not use to feel this way before using Alpha-GPC. I just hope this is some kind of temporary side effect and that this is not permanent discomfort because that would really suck .

That's weird, usually dry mouth is a symptom of low acetylcholine, not high....

[Multivitz]

You have the classic symptoms of red blood cell anemia. Just start taking some zinc supplement cause all the vit C n stuff have made you run out of the stuff (zinc). A fresh slice of beef twice a day to. Zinc activates all types of adrenalin that stimulates the muscles of the arteries not just speeding the heart up when you sit up or get upset! Zinc as a mirad of effects throughout the body and should be complemented with a separate supplement of chelated magnesium not oxide forms as they are a brain poison not citrated forms as they cause a delayed reaction syndrome. I bet if you took a course of organic (thats important) D3 anything from 500iu upwards along with a magnesium supplement slowly at first, all your woes would diminish. Now I'm not a betting man normally!

[kenth619]

My hypo-tension has since been resolved. My doctor had me on PPI for 1 month (he felt it was related to stomach ulcers) and my dizziness has gone. The only symptoms I have now are jaw clicking near to my ears when I open and close my mouth and dry lips (though this seems to be diminishing). My cognition seems to be slowly returning to what it was before, although I get slight brain fog at times. I've read on other forums that jaw clicking / tension is a sign of choline dominance (this is in line with my personality type, I'm like the most introverted person on earth). Most people have this jaw tension for about 1 - 2 weeks before it goes away, but overall my symptoms seem to have lasted for much longer. Any tips for speeding up recovery (other than taking racetams, as I would prefer a more natural solution)?

Thank you guys for all your helpful and supportive posts.

[kenth619]

I wish I could rename this thread to "Alpha GPC gave me hypothyroidism".

 

While struggling with symptoms of poor concentration, ear clicking, thirst and dry hands I went to see an M.D., an ENT and a Neurologist. None gave me medicine that could alleviate the symptoms. These symptoms persisted for nearly a year. Then one day I decided to look at the ingredient list for Alpha GPC again and I noticed soy. According to Wikipedia:

 

"Industrially, alpha-GPC is produced by the chemical or enzymatic deacylation of phosphatidylcholine enriched soya phospholipids followed by chromatographic purification. Alpha-GPC may also be derived in small amounts from highly purified soy lecithin."

 

Then it hit me. I remembered reading:

 

"Goitrogens are substances that inhibit thyroid function. When the thyroid is compromised, it may enlarge in an attempt to absorb necessary missing nutrients, resulting in a mass called a goiter. Soy inhibits the thyroid’s uptake of iodine, thus driving up the thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH) in an attempt to boost thyroid function."

 

So I did an experiment. I bought a bottle of 2% lugol's solution (this was without any doctor's advice). For 4 days I took 2 vertical drops in 400 ml of water daily. Then after the 4 days passed I stopped taking the lugol's and I started feeling like my old self again.

 

I could concentrate like I used to before, the dry mouth and dry hands have diminished in intensity, the dizziness is gone and ear clicking is less frequent. The only effect I have now is a tightness in my neck where the thyroid is located, which I hope is probably it being healed due to the iodine. I am now taking kelp which has 0.06% iodine. I am also using iodized salt as I prefer to get the iodine from natural sources. Hopefully whatever symptoms remain will disappear as I keep supplementing.

 

So my final advice for people using Alpha GPC from my hypothesis as well as anecdotal evidence is make sure you have ample iodine in your diet before taking Alpha GPC because the soy it contains can interfere with thyroid function. Hopefully you will take my advice seriously. Personally I will not be using it again. Good luck to all!

Edited by kenth619, 03 July 2015 - 12:01 AM.

[synkyr]

Hey, I know I am resurrecting an old thread, but I thought it was interesting that Alpha GPC ending up screwing with your thyroid and that you hypothesize that this stems from the soy content in it. I am not sure of how accurate this is, but on a doctor's website: http://www.raysaheli...m/alphagpc.html he postulates that the amount of soy in the capsule would be negligible: 

 

What is the source of the lecithin used in alpha gpc. I ask because I have only been able to find soy lecithin and I read that it depresses the thyroid. 

   Even though it may be extracted from soy, the amount of soy in the capsule is so minimal that it would not have any clinical significance unless someone is extraordinarily allergic to even the tiniest amount of soy. This would be extremely rare.

 

I am currently experiencing problems with brain fog / concentration / depression / and fatigue right now from taking CDP Choline 200-250 mg once daily for a few days and I noticed that CDP Choline raises TSH in addition to some other hormones. From what I could find, Alpha GPC does not also seem to raise TSH directly though I wonder if it does so in an indirect fashion or that the soy content truly is enough to have "clinical significance." Do you have extreme sensitivities to soy?

 

I am curious that you hypothesized that an inhibition of the thyroid caused an increase in TSH. Are you saying that hypothyroidism is correlated with high TSH? Do you think that raising the levels of TSH from taking CDP Choline could result in depressed thyroid function? I am thinking about trying your iodine experiment but I am going to wait for some thyroid labs to come back as I have heard that iodine can screw up your thyroid and cause hyperthyroidism. 

 

Again sorry to resurrect an older thread, but I am facing some pretty serious difficulties in my daily life right now and am searching for any way to resolve them. Here's my thread if you're interested: http://www.longecity...lp/#entry744650

 

Thanks!

[kenth619]

It's been over 1 year and I finally figured out what happened to me.

 

Turns out blood testing revealed that I had elevated serum Phosphorus levels and low Calcium levels.

 

After searching the internet for a reason I found this on page 28 of Earl Mindell's New Vitamin Bible:

https://books.google...n Bible&f=false

 

"If you take lecithin, I advise a supplement of chelated calcium to keep your phosphorus and calcium in balance, as both inositol and choline seem to raise phosphorus levels."

 

The swelling of my thyroid was actually my parathyroids secreting PTH in response to the elevated serum phosphorus. My body was in a state where bone was being used to increase serum calcium (YIKES!) This would explain why even when I took regular choline bitartrate I would get dizzy spells and brain fog from too much phosphorus. Only when I increased Boron, vitamin D3 and Calcium (from milk) did the swelling reduce in my neck and the dizziness eventually dissipate.

 

Just wondering if others ever experienced symptoms like this and based on their experience how should I balance Phosphorus and Calcium if I wanted to take another shot at Alpha-GPC supplementation? Apparently this is something I have not seen much discussion about here on LC.

 

Kenth619.