10 replies to this topic

[jjnz]

8 Years ago I was given antidepressants ( ssnri Effexor 225mg) for a trivial life event causing depression and what now seems like low level anxiety.

During this time I developed restless legs/plmd nocturnal bruxism and appeared to be recovering.

6 Years ago I was rapidly tapered off these drugs ( over 3 weeks).

The very first week of taper I developed loud tinnitus, 7khz both ears constant ( still have it today)

I had significant emotional issues which I wont bore you with ( anger ) but they cost me a lot of friends, my job etc, but they got better over the past year

I am 'slightly' depressed, a bit unmotivated and have some recurrent negative thoughts. I have an anger issue when tired.

My mood is not consistent but I don't think I'm bipolar. 

I normally have no issues thinking but my memory is not the best.

 

So, 14 weeks ago I stopped smoking cigarettes 10-20 /day, mj 1x night and coffee 4-6 cups daily 

realistically all three are 15-20 year habits

 

9 weeks ago ( 5 weeks after what seemed a fairly easy withdrawal with almost no withdrawal symptoms ) I started getting what I think is either very slight akathisia or anxiety.

My balance went, I had to constantly move my legs, stretch muscles, flex and a dead feeling in my lower legs ankles and wrists and fingers.

this has reduced significantly in the last 2 weeks but this compulsion to stretch my ankles and hands comes and goes.  

 

When asleep My Restless legs and bruxism have become much worse, I am getting occasional head zaps ( mainly when falling asleep)  occasional missed heart beats a small number of daytime muscle jerks ( myoclonus) many night time jerks, and my muscles shake even after VERY LIGHT exercise. I also now make a 'lot' of Habitual movements ( biting the insides of my lip) I'm never sure if to call these involuntary because I can control them but they are more habitual than happening by themselves. I make some orofacial movements when asleep that for a horrible moment I thought lined up with Tardive Dyskinesia but I do not make these frequently and also not by day which I think rules it out. I also have some sore back muscles, sore points on 2 ribs and various aches. My voice is also lighter and airy, but not consistently so. Sometimes after a poor nights sleep I am very very tired, other days I'm not so bad.  

 

My doctor says it's anxiety and suggested going back on effexor, naturally I refused, but I am having a hard time with this diagnosis, my body is anxious, not really my mind, ok there is some anxiety but my pulse is normal, my hands don't sweat and I dont feel worried. 

 

I have read about post acute withdrawal symptom, it's possible I have this, if it is it's a 2 year fix.

however:

My iron levels are good, white blood count is low but within range, thyroid is ok, 

 

I went to a second doctor who did urine neurotransmitter marker testing,( still awaiting results) but I've read that this is not a credible science.

 

On a daily basis ( since the withdrawal effects) I take magnesium, calcium, potassium ,zinc, B1, B3, B6, B12 ,C, fish oil, and 2 x longvida Curcumin   

I eat very very well, I try to exercise but I have arthritis in my hip from an old accident. So I do push ups but the shaking is incredible, same with situps etc.

 

So, as far as I can work out, bruxism, RLS, PLMD and compulsive behaviours are all low dopamine but in different regions of the brain. There is a serotonin connection with Tinnitus .

Certainly withdrawing from all those dopamine releasing drugs would leave me low right ?

 

Tinnitus does rarely emerge when discontinuing SSNRI antidepressants. But for many it starts when on SSRI's and ceases when the medication is withdrawn. I seem to be different.

 

I have played with low doses (500mg) of LTyrosine over the last 2 nights, I think it may have made my RLS and bruxism a little less severe but I also have a more energised sleep which does not help.

 

I am trying taking theanine with it which tonight , I think both raise dopamine but in different ways.?

I'm reading around but I see lots of conflicting stories.

Theanine(150mg)  worked wonders for relaxation the first time I tried it but now it seems not to.

 

In the long term I'd like to release more dopamine to stop the effects of RLS/PLMD/BRUXISM but also help my brain do this on its own. If I have reservations it is that taking dopamine might cause the brain to stop producing as much in the long term.? 

 

Anyway, any advice is appreciated.  as to where my brain might be in terms of chemistry/healing, both in reference to my recent withdrawal and perhaps the extent of the withdrawal might be affected by the now 2 year old withdrawal from SSNRI's,?

 

 

Edited by jjnz, 17 January 2015 - 08:08 AM.

[TheWorldAroundUs]

Yes it would seem like your brain is probably depleted of almost all dopamine considering that Serotonin depletes dopamine by itself, which is why SSRIs tend to produce side effects that look very similar to that of dopamine deficiency(low/no libido, weight gain and hyperactivity), on top of that not only do Caffeine and nicotine increase dopamine in the brain(which is why levels would be obviously lower after discontinuation) but they also contain MAOIs which again, would increase dopamine in the short term but cause even lower levels after discontinuation.

 

I would definitely keep taking L-tyrosine, and as long as you react ok to it keep increasing the dose in 1 week intervals to see how much relieve it will give you of RLS, as for the energised sleep, look into calming sedatives like L-theanine, a little melatonin etc.

Compulsive behaviors and such could manifest as a sign of serotonin deficiency(only logical because you discontinued an SSRI).

 

If I were you I would take L-tyrosine in the morning and L-tryptophan(Serotonin Precursor) before bed. If the L-tryptophan is not strong enough look into 5-htp just make sure to only use it VERY SPARINGLY considering the risk it poses to the heart. Also you should start drinking coffee again, coffee itself is not damaging to health and actually has numerous health benefits, it also contains caffeine and mild MAOIs which could help you out with your Dopamine and Serotonin deficiency type symptoms. Don't start up with the tobacco or Mj again tho.

 

For Now do this and keep increasing Tyrosine, L-tryptophan and Coffee dosage and see if you can get some relief of symptoms. You'd be suprised how shitty/tired/angry/depressed/restless/inattentive/emotional a tiny drop in Dopamine or Serotonin can cause. As for your memory issues, could you go a little bit into detail about them? If they are just overall short term memory and recall memory issues look to supplements/herbs that increase acetylcholine in the brain, I don't have one of the top of my head at this moment but look around the forum and your sure to find some great ones. But if your issues is more related to working memory(forgetting where you put your keys like 2 seconds ago, forgetting what someone literally just said to you, or going to the kitchen to get something only to completely forget once you actually arrive), this is more tied to dopamine and again, the supplements listed above should help this.

 

Anyways best of luck and keep me posted.

 

 

 

[jjnz]

Yes it would seem like your brain is probably depleted of almost all dopamine considering that Serotonin depletes dopamine by itself, which is why SSRIs tend to produce side effects that look very similar to that of dopamine deficiency(low/no libido, weight gain and hyperactivity), on top of that not only do Caffeine and nicotine increase dopamine in the brain(which is why levels would be obviously lower after discontinuation) but they also contain MAOIs which again, would increase dopamine in the short term but cause even lower levels after discontinuation.

 

I would definitely keep taking L-tyrosine, and as long as you react ok to it keep increasing the dose in 1 week intervals to see how much relieve it will give you of RLS, as for the energised sleep, look into calming sedatives like L-theanine, a little melatonin etc.

Compulsive behaviors and such could manifest as a sign of serotonin deficiency(only logical because you discontinued an SSRI).

 

If I were you I would take L-tyrosine in the morning and L-tryptophan(Serotonin Precursor) before bed. If the L-tryptophan is not strong enough look into 5-htp just make sure to only use it VERY SPARINGLY considering the risk it poses to the heart. Also you should start drinking coffee again, coffee itself is not damaging to health and actually has numerous health benefits, it also contains caffeine and mild MAOIs which could help you out with your Dopamine and Serotonin deficiency type symptoms. Don't start up with the tobacco or Mj again tho.

 

For Now do this and keep increasing Tyrosine, L-tryptophan and Coffee dosage and see if you can get some relief of symptoms. You'd be suprised how shitty/tired/angry/depressed/restless/inattentive/emotional a tiny drop in Dopamine or Serotonin can cause. As for your memory issues, could you go a little bit into detail about them? If they are just overall short term memory and recall memory issues look to supplements/herbs that increase acetylcholine in the brain, I don't have one of the top of my head at this moment but look around the forum and your sure to find some great ones. But if your issues is more related to working memory(forgetting where you put your keys like 2 seconds ago, forgetting what someone literally just said to you, or going to the kitchen to get something only to completely forget once you actually arrive), this is more tied to dopamine and again, the supplements listed above should help this.

 

Anyways best of luck and keep me posted.

Thanks for the reply - much appreciated.

The memory issues: I can be half way through answering a question and forget what the question was. 

The other day I was so bad I set myself a task of going through the alphabet and listing names of car manufacturers. I got stuck several times and I used to be a mechanic!

 

It's not just memory though, my cognition is poor, maths ability is gone and I get sidetracked very very easily. I'm just not interested at all in doing anything that does not have an instant reward.

It's variable though, sometimes I'm ok, but late afternoons for example ,I'm hopeless

Interesting on the coffee, will try.

will take 500gm tyrosine in the mornings as opposed to night  and I'll grab some l-tryptophan

Thanks again, will let you know what happens

[TheWorldAroundUs]

 

Yes it would seem like your brain is probably depleted of almost all dopamine considering that Serotonin depletes dopamine by itself, which is why SSRIs tend to produce side effects that look very similar to that of dopamine deficiency(low/no libido, weight gain and hyperactivity), on top of that not only do Caffeine and nicotine increase dopamine in the brain(which is why levels would be obviously lower after discontinuation) but they also contain MAOIs which again, would increase dopamine in the short term but cause even lower levels after discontinuation.

 

I would definitely keep taking L-tyrosine, and as long as you react ok to it keep increasing the dose in 1 week intervals to see how much relieve it will give you of RLS, as for the energised sleep, look into calming sedatives like L-theanine, a little melatonin etc.

Compulsive behaviors and such could manifest as a sign of serotonin deficiency(only logical because you discontinued an SSRI).

 

If I were you I would take L-tyrosine in the morning and L-tryptophan(Serotonin Precursor) before bed. If the L-tryptophan is not strong enough look into 5-htp just make sure to only use it VERY SPARINGLY considering the risk it poses to the heart. Also you should start drinking coffee again, coffee itself is not damaging to health and actually has numerous health benefits, it also contains caffeine and mild MAOIs which could help you out with your Dopamine and Serotonin deficiency type symptoms. Don't start up with the tobacco or Mj again tho.

 

For Now do this and keep increasing Tyrosine, L-tryptophan and Coffee dosage and see if you can get some relief of symptoms. You'd be suprised how shitty/tired/angry/depressed/restless/inattentive/emotional a tiny drop in Dopamine or Serotonin can cause. As for your memory issues, could you go a little bit into detail about them? If they are just overall short term memory and recall memory issues look to supplements/herbs that increase acetylcholine in the brain, I don't have one of the top of my head at this moment but look around the forum and your sure to find some great ones. But if your issues is more related to working memory(forgetting where you put your keys like 2 seconds ago, forgetting what someone literally just said to you, or going to the kitchen to get something only to completely forget once you actually arrive), this is more tied to dopamine and again, the supplements listed above should help this.

 

Anyways best of luck and keep me posted.

Thanks for the reply - much appreciated.

The memory issues: I can be half way through answering a question and forget what the question was. 

The other day I was so bad I set myself a task of going through the alphabet and listing names of car manufacturers. I got stuck several times and I used to be a mechanic!

 

It's not just memory though, my cognition is poor, maths ability is gone and I get sidetracked very very easily. I'm just not interested at all in doing anything that does not have an instant reward.

It's variable though, sometimes I'm ok, but late afternoons for example ,I'm hopeless

Interesting on the coffee, will try.

will take 500gm tyrosine in the mornings as opposed to night  and I'll grab some l-tryptophan

Thanks again, will let you know what happens

 

Alright, hope you get some relief of symptoms. The memory issues you stated sound like classic working memory deficits, a hallmark symptom of dopamine deficiency. On top of that you mentioned getting sidetracked very easily and only able to focus/be interested on things with instant rewards. Again these all look like you're low on dopamine. Infact your symptoms look similar to that of ADHD(Working memory deficits, getting sidetracked easily) which is why ADHD is treated with amphetamines(Potent Dopamine Releasing Agents). But you probably have other deficiencies to go along with it, especially an acetylcholine deficiency(Quitting Nicotine after long usage can do this). But for now I want to focus on Dopamine as that is where the majority of your symptoms are at. Go along with the Caffeine and L-tyrosine, and if that doesn't work we can try a little bit more aggressive approaches like Mucuna Pruriens.

 

Either way, ask if you need help.

Edited by TheWorldAroundUs, 27 January 2015 - 04:23 AM.

[HappyShoe]

Check out the dopamine threads on here for more information on recovery for that sort of issue, many people on here suffer the same problem, but for varying reasons, so there is a wealth of information on this site concerning it. Good luck with your journey.

 

Also, FYI...

150mg Theanine is a very, very low dose. If I remember correctly, it is in fact the threshold for active dosage. I don't even notice anything myself until 400-500mg on an empty stomach. It is an extremely safe substance, and I've even regularly taken 1200+mg over a long period of time with no negative effects. I wouldn't recommend a dosage that high but 300-400 might be more reasonable.

[Galaxyshock]

Seems that everyone here think they have some sort of "dopamine deficiency", well in your case the symptoms are actually there.

 

Few options:

Cordyceps - increases dopamine biosynthesis

Uridine - regulates dopamine

Maca - associated with increased DA/NA levels long-term, also contains Uridine.

Mucuna - use the whole herb as it restores endogenous dopa-levels, while the L-DOPA also leads to DA-receptor agonism - shouldn't be a problem in small amounts / short-term.

Small amounts of Phenibut at night (GABAergic-dopaminergic), don't make it a habit though.

Edited by Galaxyshock, 27 January 2015 - 08:06 AM.

[HappyShoe]

Seems that everyone here think they have some sort of "dopamine deficiency", well in your case the symptoms are actually there.

 

Few options:

Cordyceps - increases dopamine biosynthesis

Uridine - regulates dopamine

Maca - associated with increased DA/NA levels long-term, also contains Uridine.

Mucuna - use the whole herb as it restores endogenous dopa-levels, while the L-DOPA also leads to DA-receptor agonism - shouldn't be a problem in small amounts / short-term.

Small amounts of Phenibut at night (GABAergic-dopaminergic), don't make it a habit though.

 

I could bore you with my life story, but I won't do that to you. Many people on here do have dopamine issues, most of which are like myself caused by amphetamine use long term, combined with chronic stress, poor diets, and a lack of sleep and exercise, all of which contribute to this issue. Please don't be so quick to judge =)

Edited by HappyShoe, 27 January 2015 - 09:40 PM.

[HappyShoe]

I also wouldn't recommend phenibut at all... That stuff is dangerous, and comes with some nasty side effects and builds addiction extremely quickly.

[Galaxyshock]

I also wouldn't recommend phenibut at all... That stuff is dangerous, and comes with some nasty side effects and builds addiction extremely quickly.

 

Yes it is troubling substance when abused, but I'm talking small doses (300mg or so) every other day or so, that way it will not get one in trouble. Phenibut is effective substance that can give plenty of relief, shouldn't be entirely dismissed just because people abuse it and report bad withdrawals. Anyway, I'd only consider Phenibut for short-term treatment until other more long-term suitable substances kick in.

[jjnz]

Update;

since seeking advice I have

WEEK ONE

500mg l-Tyrosine with b6 -  each morning half hour before food 

300mg L- theanine at night

1-2 cups of coffee per day  

Observation 

Increase in memory and functionality, much more decisive and motivated, initially uncomfortable in that my brain felt like it was 'in a hurry'.

The coffee I am VERY sensitive to.

The night time theanine did very little until week 2, 

Quality of sleep is OK,  I still feel the energy from ( assumption) the tyrosine BUT rls/plmd has got much better ( or I am not conscious of it) and Jaw is not sore in morning so am assuming this means less aggressive bruxism.

The headzaps have GONE !

I still have some muscle twitching, mainly in my feet and these are associated with night time cramps ( the cramps are new) but I'm also doing a bit more exercise too.

I'm able to do situps and pushups without the incredible muscle shaking I was getting a week ago

Overall this is a massive improvement .

 

week 2

1000mg L-tyrosine

450mg  theanine

1-2 coffee 

HUGE increase in mental energy .I've got quite a bit of motivation but I'm a bit impatient and aggressive, especially if I'm interrupted or I have to stop what I'm doing.

I find that the coffee is now making me a little hyper ( perhaps it's the tyrosine?) it's nice but I feel like I can't regulate my energy. Perhaps I'm adjusting. 

I have lots of motivation and the cravings for the things I gave up have returned mainly in the early evening, the 450mg of theanine works like a dream, I wake up so relaxed and refreshed. I feel awesome.

Memory is great, thinking is fast, enthusiasm is back but others have noticed that my energy is a bit unnatural,

I'm neither happy or sad, just a bit impatient and have lots of energy.

I'd almost say that my reading /typing and talking speeds, especially in the middle of the day/afternoon have increased . My memory is not too bad, but i still have some moments where I'm half way through a sentence and struggle with a word or fail to answer a question precisely. 

The biggest change is that the " dread/anxiety" I used to feel when someone asked me to do something has disappeared. I didn't realise how significant this was until it disappeared. Now I just get up and do things, if a problem arises I just solve it, sometimes it feels a bit too easy. I'm now aware that I used to sit around and spend a lot of time staring at the walls and thinking about other things, I feel like I'm living more in the now.

 

In summary I feel a lot more capable and have more energy for exercise and mental stamina, my rls/plmd. bruxism is much better and muscle twitching and shaking is better and/or I'm far less conscious of it. All in 2 weeks !

Note I have not yet started taking the L-Tryptophan, they only arrived today.

 

Next week I will try 1500mg of tyrosine and start taking the L tryptophan at night

will update again next week.

Cheers ! This has been a huge improvement

 

 

 

[jjnz]

Update 2, ( note this is some weeks later (21 March 2015)

I went as far as 3500mg / day of tyrosine and started to get rather big and regular headaches,.

Restless legs has disappeared, muscle twitching has stopped ( Except in soles of feet)

Mood is quite good, Iritability is there but very manage=able,

 

I started taking tryptophan at night and this made my bruxism very bad, I then got tooth aches and sensitive teeth, so I figured I would cut back and see what happened.

I cut back to 1500mg, no effect, so assumed that the "dopamine levels" must have corrected themselves.

 

So I stopped.

 

I doubt it's a coincidence but a week after stopping my muscle twitching is back with a vengeance, my mood is different ( more irritable, more aligned to recounting bad memories, creating negative conversations in my head )

Just a small amount of muscle strain causes shaking especially if held in a strained position, ( eg pressup position, even without the pressups)

Hands and fingers feel wrong ( tingly and slight exageration of movement when starting movements)

 

So, I'm giving it another couple of days and then it looks like I'm going back on the tyrosine !!

My question is , why am I not storing dopamine, will I have to keep taking it forever ?

 

 

 

 

Edited by jjnz, 21 March 2015 - 06:59 AM.