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How to fight oxiracetam and phenylpiracetam tolerance?

tolerance oxiracetam phenylpiracetam

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#1 TSX TypeR

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 03:36 PM


In February of 2015 I decided to add oxiracetam (750mg) to my stack with Acetyl L-carnitine Arginate (500mg) + Alpha Lipoic Acid (100mg), Piracetam (1600mg), and Alpha-GPC (300mg). I got the benefits others seemed to be getting (increased energy, math became super easy and memory was photographic), wereas before on 800mg I would get noticable positive effects. On days that I didn't feel like using oxiracetam I would substitute in Phenylpiracetam (200mg) and get a stronger version of the same effects (plus athletic advantages). However, the nootropic effects seemed to only last about a month and a half before tolerance set in. As I type, oxiracetam and phenylpiracetam are both useless to me as nootropics. Does anyone have any idea how to fight tolerance in these two racetams (especially oxiracetam)?
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#2 YosefANaumovich

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 06:06 PM

I found this video by a guy who I believe frequents here:  (Limitless Mindset)

Racetams reduce several chemicals in the brain, one being obviously choline, another being potassium, and others too. The person in the video explains it nicely for piracetam - and I take it it's the same for all racetams.

 

If you don't want to watch the video, just read the video description at least.

 

Good luck.

 



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#3 Xenthide

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Posted 25 April 2015 - 01:18 PM

In my opinion and also experience there is no way to fight tolerance to any of the racetams short of taking a break from them for a while.

 

I am surprised it took you a month and a half for Phenylpiracetam to lose it's effects, for most people tolerance skyrockets within days. It is not really surprising however that Phenylpiracetam should have such rapid tolerance as it is essentially a dopaminergic stimulant, albeit a somewhat unusual one with, perhaps, some nootropic benefits that are not typically seen in such chemicals.

 

That said, working from the basis that it is primarily a dopaminergic stimulant, you may want to look at Memantine - I have no experience with it myself and won't pretend to have any real understanding of the reasons for this, but some people who use amphetamine (typically because it has been prescribed to them) have reported success in keeping tolerance down with this particular chemical, and one might hypothesize that although the mechanisms of action may be quite different between Phenylpiracetam and amphetamine, they may have similar enough effect profiles that Memantine may have some effect on the development of tolerance of the former chemical as well.

 

If you do decide to try this though please be aware that this is pure conjecture on my part and I am not aware of anyone having actually tried to do this.

 

...Saying that, I have just quickly googled this out of interest and there are some reports that suggest Piracetam and other racetams are synergistic with Memantine so there might be some benefit for the Oxiracetam tolerance as well.

 

 

 

All that said, in my opinion although you will no doubt be able to continue experimenting with combining different chemicals to prolong the desired effects, there is very rarely going to be such a perfect overlap in compounds that some form of tolerance to some component of the effects of any one chemical doesn't continue to develop regardless, and for that reason, the best and safest solution to tolerance issues is to simply to take a break for a while.



#4 YosefANaumovich

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Posted 25 April 2015 - 06:33 PM

In my opinion and also experience there is no way to fight tolerance to any of the racetams short of taking a break from them for a while.

You say that in your experience there is no way to fight tolerance. Did you try the potassium, choline (Alpha GPC or just bititrate) and acetyl-L-cartinine (ALCAR) as seen in the video above your post? I recommend that you do so as it has worked for at least one person.



#5 Xenthide

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Posted 25 April 2015 - 08:47 PM

I have tried pretty much all types of Choline and noticed minimal difference between them. I have not tried ALCAR or Potassium, and am probably not going to now as I have tried many combinations of different compounds and have yet to find anything that makes any truly significant difference one way or the other, which would seem to be nothing less than what is to be expected from practically all "subtle" nootropics available today.

 

That said, I never really developed a complete "tolerance" as such to any racetam, I don't think, only that for me, some of the initial clarity of thought and motivation started to give way to brain fog and irritability, and there was never any way around this except to take a break for a little while. YMMV, of course.

 

That video though, as I understand it, is targeted mainly at non-responders, rather than people who did respond initially and then stopped responding. Not to say that some of the suggestions might not still be helpful for some people, although it is my opinion (and I think, not a totally unfounded one) that the majority of people who initially got effects from ANY supplement and then lose these effects would be more wise to take a break rather than keep chasing the initial feeling with yet more supplementation, although I understand the temptation to do the latter, and still do myself occasionally despite feeling like I should know better.


Edited by Xenthide, 25 April 2015 - 08:49 PM.


#6 TSX TypeR

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Posted 26 April 2015 - 01:42 PM

I am surprised it took you a month and a half for Phenylpiracetam to lose it's effects, for most people tolerance skyrockets within days. It is not really surprising however that Phenylpiracetam should have such rapid tolerance as it is essentially a dopaminergic stimulant, albeit a somewhat unusual one with, perhaps, some nootropic benefits that are not typically seen in such chemical tolerance


I think the reason it took so long for me to develop tolerance to phenylpiracetam is because I only took it once a week. However, the effects of oxiracetam dropped off at the same time while taken about 3 days a week.

I'm actually trying out the potassium solution right now to see if it works, because I do have a strong reason to believe that I am potassium deficient. Memantine looks interesting because I think I could get that from a doctor (maybe).

#7 YosefANaumovich

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Posted 26 April 2015 - 03:49 PM

 

I am surprised it took you a month and a half for Phenylpiracetam to lose it's effects, for most people tolerance skyrockets within days. It is not really surprising however that Phenylpiracetam should have such rapid tolerance as it is essentially a dopaminergic stimulant, albeit a somewhat unusual one with, perhaps, some nootropic benefits that are not typically seen in such chemical tolerance

I'm actually trying out the potassium solution right now to see if it works

 

Don't forget the ALCAR (acetyl-l-carnitine) and choline!



#8 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 28 April 2015 - 01:33 AM

I would be hesitant to use Memantine to prevent tolerance. It's not like other NMDA antagonists. It's and uncompetitive antagonist. This is wholly different from a non-competitive antagonist. Uncompetitive means that it doesn't begin working as an antagonist until the receptor fires. So it only reduces the strength of the signal, like an audio compressor. It does not block it, like DXM and Ketamine would.

If you want to prevent tolerance, take about 75mg of DXM with your normal dose. This is the main ingredient in Robitussin, which acts as an NMDA antagonist and can block tolerance to a wide variety of drugs. Just make sure DXM is the only active ingredient. Repeatedly ingesting high doses of some of the other things like guaneficine can make you sick.


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#9 dsohei

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Posted 04 May 2015 - 04:07 PM

I would be hesitant to use Memantine to prevent tolerance. It's not like other NMDA antagonists. It's and uncompetitive antagonist. This is wholly different from a non-competitive antagonist. Uncompetitive means that it doesn't begin working as an antagonist until the receptor fires. So it only reduces the strength of the signal, like an audio compressor. It does not block it, like DXM and Ketamine would.

If you want to prevent tolerance, take about 75mg of DXM with your normal dose. This is the main ingredient in Robitussin, which acts as an NMDA antagonist and can block tolerance to a wide variety of drugs. Just make sure DXM is the only active ingredient. Repeatedly ingesting high doses of some of the other things like guaneficine can make you sick.


Where would i get straight dxm, pm me? Thx (im trying memantine now and it does seem to lower tolerance)

#10 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 04 May 2015 - 07:32 PM

I don't get straight DXM. They have the Long-Acting Robitussin, the one with DXM as the only active ingredient, in a generic form at my local 99 Cents Store! :D

Edited by OneScrewLoose, 04 May 2015 - 07:33 PM.


#11 Xenthide

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Posted 04 May 2015 - 07:43 PM

I do not think that combining DXM, or indeed, any related NMDA antagonist with stimulants is advisable on a long term basis - Memantine and similar compounds (if any exist) will still allow normal functioning of the receptors they antagonise but prevent over-excitation, while DXM, Ketamine and other similar compounds will cause a blanket antagonism which isn't dependant on the level of receptor activation.

 

This may indeed be more effective for tolerance prevention but is likely not conducive to optimal cognitive performance, especially long term. In addition, while there is a fairly extensive body of research demonstrating Memantine's inhibiting effects on the formation of tolerance to a wide array of other substances, and even some hints that Memantine may have some nootropic benefits in it's own right, there is next to no research on the effects of DXM in this regard. As far as NMDA antagonists go, DXM does seem to be a dirtier one, with a much wider profile of effects and multiple active metabolites. Ketamine might be a safer bet purely because there is much more research on it, but this has just as wide an effect profile and some actual proven potential for harm such as bladder damage through a mechanism which is not fully understood.

 

Granted the very low, sub-threshold doses suggested may mean that the risk of unwanted side effects or dependence is minimal, but nonetheless both DXM and Ketamine have definite abuse potential themselves, and almost definitely no nootropic benefit.

 

Given these facts it does not seem to me to be worth the risk of any potential (and unproven) incremental benefit to using DXM (or Ketamine, or indeed any other less-researched dissociative) for prevention of tolerance to anything, compared to Memantine for which, at least, the evidence would seem to suggest that most combinations are at the very least unlikely to be actually harmful.


Edited by Xenthide, 04 May 2015 - 07:53 PM.

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#12 Xenthide

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Posted 04 May 2015 - 07:57 PM

I just removed references to compounds being non-competitive and uncompetitive from my post because I don't fully understand the distinction, it would seem DXM is also an uncompetitive NMDA antagonist while Ketamine is non-competitive. From what I have read previously however Memantine's antagonism is somewhat unique, perhaps due to the fact that it's antagonism is voltage dependent? Anyway I think the other points still stand regardless.



#13 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 08:53 PM

Uncompetitive and noncompetitive are completely separate things. Non-competitive means it binds to the receptor in such away that doesn't allow other ligands to compete with it at the binding site. This usually means its quite potent. Or, they bind at an allosteric site and their effects can't be reversed by simply increasing the levels of the agonist at the primary site. Alpha and beta blockers tend to be examples of this.

Uncompetitive, on the other hand, is a completely different animal. It means that there is no antagonism until the receptor fires. Where all other types of antagonists tend to kill the signal or part of it, uncompetitive simply reduces it's strength. Think of it as an audio compressor, as opposed to cutting out a piece of that audio with other types of antagonists. That's why Memantine doesn't make a great dissociative, the signal is still there.

 

I've never heard of DXM being uncompetitive. It'd love to see a source please, that would blow my mind.

Can I see the studies showing the efficacy of Memantine in reducing tolerance? The dose is very important and has to be mentioned in these studies. Since 20mg of Memantine is commonly used simply to prevent neurotoxicity, I would think that the dose has to be above that to get the kind of signal compression to prevent tolerance, but that could just be conjecture.

DXM itself, I suppose you could say is dirty. It's a potent SRI and sigma agonist. However, DXM itself doesn't antagonise NMDA receptors, its metabolite, Dextrorphan, does. It takes about an hour to be converted into Dextrorphan, and once its there, it doesn't seem to have any other pharmacological effects. Overall, that seems pretty clean to me. The way it antagonizes NMDA is the same way as Ketamine, so I don't see the issue there. 75mg will go a long way to prevent tolerance, while being not nearly enough to cause psychoactive effects.


Edited by OneScrewLoose, 05 May 2015 - 08:54 PM.


#14 dsohei

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 09:31 PM

Very interesting posts, i myself am using memantine to try and reduce my perception of chronic pain, in the way that it was used in the Phantom limb pain study. If memantine and low dose ketamine (please forgive my rudimentary understanding, I'm trying to learn all this while under the stress of a poorly understood syndrome) reduce glutamate by ...downregulating ? Nmda receptor sites...

#15 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 10:36 PM

They don't reduce glutamate at all. The block one of the main receptor sites of glutamate, NMDA receptors, which is one of the main receptors that are activated when your senses are stimulated, among many other functions. I myself take 35mg of Memantine/day for neuropathic pain and intense body/muscle tension. It's done wonders.

What dose of Memantine are you on?



#16 dsohei

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 10:47 PM

They don't reduce glutamate at all. The block one of the main receptor sites of glutamate, NMDA receptors, which is one of the main receptors that are activated when your senses are stimulated, among many other functions. I myself take 35mg of Memantine/day for neuropathic pain and intense body/muscle tension. It's done wonders.

What dose of Memantine are you on?


i did 5mg a day for the first week, now I'm on 10mg once a day, gonna keep going up til around 30, most of what ive seen says thats the sweet spot. I will judge it by my preceived pain during dance training

#17 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 11:23 PM

I noticed with the higher does it takes longer to go up. I would give yourself 2 weeks for each dose increase.



#18 dsohei

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 02:27 AM

Longer to go up meaning titrating up while avoiding brain fog? To be honest i havent felt any of that yet but i am only on week 2
how long did u take to get to 35mg a day?

#19 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 03:57 AM

About 3-4 months. I was stuck at 30mg for a while. The first time I went up to 40mg,  I had bad effects. I waited a couple more weeks and then the effects were positive. I only went down to 35mg recently due to the anorgasmia caused by this dosage.

This seems to be related to its alpha-7 nicotinic blockade. At first, the antagonism causes cogntive deficits, but what seems to happen is that those receptors upregulate past their starting point, giving you cogntiive enhancement in some cases:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15372325

One most be truly patient with Memantine. This can be hard when we feel our problems are damaging our lives, right here and right now.



#20 TSX TypeR

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 09:50 PM

I was able to get oxiracetam working again but not phenylpiracetam. Presumably, from simply loading potassium for a fews days before using the racetams (but don't load too much as potassium is actually deadly in excess). However, to be sure, I need to either gain tolerance to oxiracetam again and attempt to repeat this or I could maintain my potassium levels and wait for tolerance to build.

This stack contained: 800mg Oxiracetam, 1800mg Piracetam, 500mg ALCAR and 300mg Alpha-GPC plus 4 bananas in addition to 198mg of potassium from Jarrow.

On the other hand, phenylpiracetam was no longer useful as a nootropic (maybe still useful as a performance enhancer) as tolerance continues to increase.

This stack contained: 200mg phenylpiracetam, 1200mg Piracetam, 500mg ALCAR and 300mg Alpha-GPC plus 3 bananas in addition to 198mg of potassium from Jarrow.

#21 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 09 May 2015 - 09:26 AM

 

I was able to get oxiracetam working again but not phenylpiracetam. Presumably, from simply loading potassium for a fews days before using the racetams (but don't load too much as potassium is actually deadly in excess). However, to be sure, I need to either gain tolerance to oxiracetam again and attempt to repeat this or I could maintain my potassium levels and wait for tolerance to build.

This stack contained: 800mg Oxiracetam, 1800mg Piracetam, 500mg ALCAR and 300mg Alpha-GPC plus 4 bananas in addition to 198mg of potassium from Jarrow.

On the other hand, phenylpiracetam was no longer useful as a nootropic (maybe still useful as a performance enhancer) as tolerance continues to increase.

This stack contained: 200mg phenylpiracetam, 1200mg Piracetam, 500mg ALCAR and 300mg Alpha-GPC plus 3 bananas in addition to 198mg of potassium from Jarrow.

 

Actually, in the specific case of racetams, a lower dose of 5-10mg of Memantine might prevent the tolerance. I don't think the tolerance happens at the ACh level, as the racetams tend to ramp up ACh activity and possibly even receptor density (this is why you take choline with your racetam, your body starts to make more acetylcholine, and if the choline isn't available for that, you get nasty sides). Racetams all seem to activate the NMDA receptor to one degree or another, and it is a good possibility that this is where the tolerance is happening. Memantine may balance this out.

If you're interested, check out alldaychemist.com


Edited by OneScrewLoose, 09 May 2015 - 09:26 AM.


#22 Xenthide

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Posted 09 May 2015 - 11:13 AM

Keep meaning to reply to this - OneScrewLoose, my source for DXM being uncompetitive is admittedly Wikipedia, although I didn't at the time check Dextrorphan, which is indeed non-competitive, which I guess makes DXM's antagonism less relevant.

 

Since my original post I have found several studies suggesting DXM can be neuroprotective, so I may be wrong to dismiss it so quickly. I think I am just a little wary of drugs that are also recreational dissociatives...

 

 

Out of curiosity, is there any particular reason you recommend DXM over Ketamine, besides the fact that the former is likely more available? I guess maybe the bladder damage issue would be a good reason not to recommend Ketamine although it's unclear whether this would occur at very small dosages, better safe than sorry.

 

 

Also, do you think Memantine has any benefits which the aforementioned chemicals don't have?

 

I have read many anecdotal reports that the racetams are essentially a dissociative antidote, and will quickly completely cancel out the effects of perceptibly psychoactive doses of DXM and Ketamine. Noopept apparently also does this, so it would seem to me these class of chemicals have essentially opposite effects. Would memantine be likely to behave the same, or differently?



#23 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 07:38 AM

DXM is less strong than DXM, and often ketamine needs to insulated. Plus it seems Ketamine inhibits the serotonin dopamine, and norepinephrine transporters. It has other effects as well. DXM's metabolite is the NMDA antagonist (DXM itself barely touches it), and it's also a potent SRI and sigma agonist in the hour or so before it gets metabolized. A lot less overall effects.



#24 TSX TypeR

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Posted 28 June 2015 - 12:40 AM

Just noticed that I am unable to find a reliable source of Memantine. My main site (IAS) has discontinued it. Does anyone know where to find the pharmaceutical version of Memantine?



#25 8bitmore

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 03:54 PM

Just noticed that I am unable to find a reliable source of Memantine. My main site (IAS) has discontinued it. Does anyone know where to find the pharmaceutical version of Memantine?

 

Echo'ing from OneScrewLoose in above post: alldaychemist.com, there's also ceretropic.com but they are not "pharmaceutical" per say, still I would actually trust the latter more than the former.
 



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#26 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 11:35 PM

I have nothing but glowing reviews for ADC: been using them for years. Once, when a package was sent back, as soon as I made them aware of it, they reshipped it without me having to even ask.







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