24 replies to this topic

[jango]

hi

This is my first post.    First of all I have to say I'm not English speaker so maybe there wil be some writing mistakes.

I suffer chronic upper back pain since 20 years ago. I've tried all therapies you can imagine...

The doctors have never found the origin of the pain, though there is a severe trapezius contraction. It stops me to do any exercise or sport. The only medication that works for me are diazepam and ibuprofen, but I cant take it every day.

Can you advice me some anti-inflamattory supplement or something to ease the muscle contraction??
I've tried curcuma, ginger, white willow bark, omega 3.... but they did nothing.

It seems to be some kind of anxiety, I have insomnia too. Doctors say there is a hidden depression, I ve tried many anti-depressants and SRRI. They helped me a little but the pain and the contraction is still there.

Im really desperate, it afects my live and my character. I have just started with natural supplements but Im a little lost...

Now Im taking 5htp because in a blood test my serotonine levels were quite low (Im not sure if blood test is effective to know about your serotonine brain level, so maybe I will quit) This 5htp makes me feel a bit dizzy. Im also taking GABA supplement to help me to sleep.

I will be very grateful for your help. Im desperate and that condition is driving me to a depression and isolation

[Kalliste]

You should provide some details about the use of curcumin, ginger and so on. Maybe you used too little, maybe you used it for too short of a time.

 

Have you tried:

A serious rehab program, by serious I mean doing it twice or thrice a week and regularly talking to a rehab expert about it.

LLLT? Light therapy?

Infrared sauna?

Gua-sha massage?

MitoQ, C60oo?

Warm water gymnastics/rehab?

Ice packs/cryo therapy?

Yoga/meditation/tai-chi?

 

[jango]

hi  Cosmicalstorm, thanks for your answer

 

I've tried all the therapies you mentioned, except MitoQ and C60oo (I dont know any of them,can you give me some refferences?)

 

Curcumin I tried from Lifeextension and Lamberts (3 pills per day during 2 months)

Ginger I've tried from Nowfoods 3 pills per day but I havent been very constant. I'm  not sure about the efficacy of ginger in muscle pain..

[Kalliste]

At least one part of chronic pain is a disturbance of the redox homeostasis in the damaged site. C60 and MitoQ might help with that. I've tried both and the one thing I can say for sure is that they changed how my muscles get sore after strenous exercise. Another thing that is testworthy is ultrasound therapy or extracorporeal shockwave therapy. Some stuff can be done at home. A month or two of this and that is generally too little when dealing with chronic pain.
You might also look at TENS and perhaps electric shock therapy if nothing else helps.

[Dichotohmy]

Do you notice a correlation between sleeping position, pillow, or mattress and worsening of these symptoms? I have chronic inflammatory muscle pain in the mid and upper trapezius muscles as well, but also neck and middle spine joint pain. Side sleeping or stomach sleeping, even for a short time and with measures like special mattresses, ergonomic pillows and a separate pillow between my legs, just isn't tolerable for me and results in worse pain.

 

I hesitate to say it, but pscychiatric  factors, as you describe, will also adversely affect one's perception of pain; so far from being the cause, shouldn't be totally dismissed either.

Edited by Dichotohmy, 28 July 2015 - 06:18 PM.

[Kalliste]

There are mental pain feedbackloops that can be modified with cognitive therapy. I read some of the science concerning tendinos. But really it was pathetic reading IMO it didnt help.IIRC they were trying to make people ignore chronic pain. But worth trying if you think its involved.

Edited by Cosmicalstorm, 28 July 2015 - 06:25 PM.

[jango]

thanks for your answers

 

Cosmicalstorm : ultrasound and tens I have already tried with no results...I have a question:  Is MitoQ is similar to coenzyme q10??   and c60 is similar to omega3 oil?  If there is a remarkable difference maybe I will try... I have never heard about these products

 

Dichotomy: In my case I can only sleep in right side or face up, with a flat pillow.. 

 

From my point of view pscychriatic factors could affect but I dont think thats the origin of the problem, though most of the doctors relate the pain to a depression and anxiety, I think that's because  they dont find the reason and need to give an answer. Diazepam make me feel better, but I think its due to a muscle relaxation, not the anti-anxiety effect

 

dichotomy you said you also have chronique pain... Is there anything that relieves your pain?

[sthira]

^^ have you tried any of the theraputic styles of yoga? Trapezius and shoulder mobility issues are commonly addressed in the Iyengar style, for example, where many dance, cirque, acro performers find themselves.

[Dichotohmy]

thanks for your answers

 

dichotomy you said you also have chronique pain... Is there anything that relieves your pain?

 

Yes, 600-800mg of ibuprofen TID, with sparing use of tramadol. Stretching exercises and cracking my back and neck helps some, but only for about 10-15 minutes afterwards.

Edited by Dichotohmy, 28 July 2015 - 07:46 PM.

[Kalliste]

thanks for your answers

 

Cosmicalstorm : ultrasound and tens I have already tried with no results...I have a question:  Is MitoQ is similar to coenzyme q10??   and c60 is similar to omega3 oil?  If there is a remarkable difference maybe I will try... I have never heard about these products

 

Dichotomy: In my case I can only sleep in right side or face up, with a flat pillow.. 

 

From my point of view pscychriatic factors could affect but I dont think thats the origin of the problem, though most of the doctors relate the pain to a depression and anxiety, I think that's because  they dont find the reason and need to give an answer. Diazepam make me feel better, but I think its due to a muscle relaxation, not the anti-anxiety effect

 

dichotomy you said you also have chronique pain... Is there anything that relieves your pain?

 

C60 thread. It is unclear what it does, but a part of the effect is an ability to target the Mitochondrion and act as antioxidant there, imo very different from CoQ10 and Omega 3.
MitoQ does the same thing and has better tox data for humans. I have used up to 20mg of MitoQ/day and felt very good.

I use C60 and notice it makes muscle soreness after riding my bike 5x2 10 km laps a week very different so it definetly targets muscles. They are full of mitochondria.

 

There are other components of chronic pain that I understand a lot less than the disturbed redox environment such as the issue of feedback/feedforward loops, metabolic stuff like prostaglandins

 

MitoQ (Cannot really afford it right now but 20mg gave me a real boost)

http://www.longecity...pic/3754-mitoq/

 

C60oo (take 5ml/day)

http://www.longecity...fic-discussion/

 

One thing to emphasize and one reason why a lot of promising substances fail trials is probably that they need to be used in combinations to enhance each other. Look at the cocktaileffect of harmful chemicals. The same thing might go for the goodies so pick ten things, plan them and start them at the same time, maybe that will help. You might go back to TENS and ultrasound again and find it helps in concert.

Edited by Cosmicalstorm, 28 July 2015 - 08:43 PM.

[nowayout]

This kind of pain is often not due to a problem within the painful area itself but rather due to compression of the nerve roots in the spinal vertebrae (neck disc herniations or stenosis (bone abnormalities) are two common reasons).  Have you had a neck MRI to check for this?

Edited by nowayout, 29 July 2015 - 02:05 PM.

[gamesguru]

So you cannot do lightweight shrug exercises?  Unless it causes pain, the exercise is likely healthy and undoing damage.

 

and MAGNESIUM.  It's a muscle relaxant safe to take daily; tho not as effective as benzos, certainly safer.

[jango]

hi

 

I've checked my spine with rx and many other tests and the results were right. I dont have any vertebra problem.

 

Gamesguru: Unfortunately even soft exercices causes pain. U would love be able to swim or light-weight exercices but the pain the day after is terrible..

 

I've tried magnesium for a time, actually I still have it sometimes, it helps me a little but need something stronger...

 

This pain seems to be a kind of fibromyalgia, but focused on trapezious area, and with a hard steady muscle contraction...

 

I know it seems to be unbelievable, that makes the problem bigger, because many people think that this is not true...Thats why doctors dont take it seriously and give me antidepressants and kick me away . But when the fisiotherapists touch it can understand my sadness. Its difficult to live with this. Almost any activitie causes pain.. Since Im 18, now Im 38... Some days I feel very irritable and it makes me lonely but there is no solution.  Thanks for your answers

[thewallypug]

I had chronic left-sided trapezius pain for years, and took huge amounts of Ibuprofen, which probably damaged me somehow. I blamed it on stress.

Turmeric helped take it away, though. You have to keep taking it for a while. Eden Pond Turmeric Curcumin 1000mg  1-2 per day is what I use now as it also takes away arthritis pain. (I don't know if we're allowed to mention brand names here, but I don't know anything about the EdenPond company anyway) Also I take it with a large fish oil capsule with it because I think I read that that there's a fat solubility factor.

 

Low Potassium? Recently the pain came back very, very severely about a week after I started taking HCTZ a diuretic that can cause Potassium loss. Potassium loss usually shows up as cramping in legs but I think it was my trapezius pain cause. I'm off it now. Have your blood electrolytes checked, if they haven't been.

 

The pain starts to creep up on me if I'm sitting with my tablet computer on my lap for long periods bending my head down.

 

The Alexander Technique 

http://www.alexandertechnique.com/

I went to one of these people for a  while. They help you to balance your head on your body rather than holding it in place, is  a very simplified description. I know it's helped my problem.

The website says they're all over the world.

 

"The New Rules of Posture" by Mary Bond , subtitle: "How to Sit Stand and Move in the Modern World" has also helped me. Its not about "standing up straight". I don't know if it's translated into other languages.

 

I sometimes wonder if a constantly berating parent has something to do with this. Matricide is still against the law, though.

 

Good luck to you. I know this frustrating pain can drive a person crazy.

[nowayout]

I know it seems to be unbelievable, that makes the problem bigger, because many people think that this is not true...Thats why doctors dont take it seriously and give me antidepressants and kick me away .

 

Some antidepressants are actually used for their effect in interrupting signals in the neurons involved in chronic pain.  A typical one that gave me some relief when I had severe shoulder blade pain for a year was low dose amitriptylene - the doses used for pain (10-20 mg) are much lower than the doses used for depression. 

 

[jango]

The wallypug: I've already tried curcumine but lower dosis. Does anyone know if the curcumine brand is so important? Some brands claim to be 20 times more effective than others but I've always thought its just advertising... About alexander's therapy I already tried with no success.

Nowayout. I already tried tryptizol but it didnt work. The only antidepressant that worked a little was Paroxetine but too many collateral effects so I stopped it..

[Kalliste]

There are many claims about Curcumin and it's big business. There are several threads on the forum. I try to add 100-200g of Turmeric roots to my diet every week. It's cheap and tastes well in the right combination.

[jango]

I will look for more information about curcumine and different brands.

Back to the antidepressants.., has anyone tried tianeptine for chronique pain?? This medication has been approved recently here in Spain

[fntms]

I now have had chronic neck pain for 8 or 9 months and nothing helps, and I have taken tianeptine tid for many years...
Btw it seems I got serotonin syndrome like effects (anxiety, sweating, shivers, diarrhea...) from the tramadol I was prescribed (the interaction with tianeptine is not good for me). Which didn't really help either at 100mg.
APAP helps a little bit but we know how great it is for the liver long term... Damn!
I got some relief from massage but it was very temporary. Now my doc says change your pillow and take some nsaids. Awesome.
Might give c60 a shot...

[jango]

fntms what is APAP? Do you have muscle contraction? I understand Tramadol with ssri is a dangerous combination...Doctors are very lost with the chronique pain: nsaids can be taken for a short time, not forever!

[nowayout]

Back to the antidepressants.., has anyone tried tianeptine for chronique pain?

 

I tried tianeptine but it didn't do much of anything for me.  I know antidepressants are commonly used for pain but the evidence that they work for pain is weak, and in studies that show an effect on pain, the effect isn't much larger than placebo.   This includes tianeptine.

 

The only medication that really made a huge difference to my chronic pain was tramadol.  It worked really well, but as mentioned above you should not combine it with other medications without your doctor's approval. 

 

Edited by nowayout, 30 July 2015 - 03:59 PM.

[fntms]

Apap is acetaminophen.

I was told it's muscle pain due to tension, but it's not specifically contraction I think. I can lift heavy weights and this helps momentarily reduce the pain (the hormones that are released?), but I can't do sports where you have to move your head such as boxing. It makes me cranky most of the time and I am getting desperate...

Yes doctors often give the impression they know next to nothing about the drugs they hand out like candy. My doctor knows I take tianeptine but gave me the tramadol anyway (there's no official warning about those two drugs). The psychiatrist who gives me tianeptine doesn't even know what tramadol is...

I thought the tension might be due to some of the supps I am taking (sulbutiamine, cdp choline, maybe pycnogenol, p5p?) but I take less very low doses of these and tried quiting them with no results...
Magnesium glycinate doesn't help but I still take some.

[son of shen nong]

Have you tried massage or some form of bodywork?  If so, does it make it feel better for awhile or not at all?   If it makes it feel better, for how long?

Is the pain just in your upper back or does it radiate to other parts of your body,  like your neck?

Is the pain one sided or do you have it on both sides?

 

[jango]

Have you tried massage or some form of bodywork?  If so, does it make it feel better for awhile or not at all?   If it makes it feel better, for how long?

Is the pain just in your upper back or does it radiate to other parts of your body,  like your neck?

Is the pain one sided or do you have it on both sides?

 

hi . Yes of course massages, bodywork, chiropractic, etc... Im tired of trying with differents therapeutists, no improvement at all... a waste of money for me. Actually I have spent more than 15.000 € in differents treatments...

 

the pain radiates to the neck. The area is all trapezious, more on the left (Im left-handed)

[nowayout]

Some things that bring my chronic pain (neck/upper back) back:

 

- Looking down at a cellphone or tablet or book, for example the way the typical person would text.  Avoid completely - even a little bit of texting like this on any particular day and I'll be hurting the next day.   

- Using the mouse or typing with unsupported elbows at a desk.  Get a chair with armrests at the correct height, and switch to using the mouse with your non-dominant hand (this was very useful to me). 

- Holding a book or tablet with unsupported elbow or wrist.  Also, I now cut heavier books into thinner, lighter sections and avoid holding tablets in my hand.  To read, text, or use a tablet/laptop, sit comfortably, put a large cushion (or two or three) on your lap, and prop the book/tablet/cellphone on top of the cushion at eye level. 

Edited by nowayout, 31 July 2015 - 10:11 PM.