23 replies to this topic

[eon]

I wonder if there is a way to achieve REM sleep without sleeping for 8 hours? There had to be some type of supplement that takes you "straight" to REM sleep within a certain hour of sleep and not necessarily the last 3 hours of an 8 hour sleep. 

 

I was told ZMA has potential. How about B12? Or Melatonin? I'm sure GHB (illegal) was said to give you the best sleep ever.

 

I feel as if I could use some sleep therapy because I think this is what I am slacking on. I could stay up for over 16 hours so I'm taking sleep for granted. I wish I could achieve REM sleep in less time...

[fairy]

I'm not sure I understood correctly your post. You want to reach the REM state faster, to be able to sleep less? Then simply sleep less and maybe take a nap. I'm trying to adapt to a biphasic sleep schedule at the moment: 4.5 hours each night from 2 AM to 6.5 AM then a nap in the afternoon, still to be defined. I want to hit REM faster for other purposes.

 

Sources: 

 

>>>https://en.wikipedia.../REM_rebound<<<

https://psychlopedia...com/REM rebound

https://en.wikipedia..._movement_sleep

Attached Files

•  Sleep_Hypnogram.jpg   17.48KB   7 downloads

[metabrain]

If you are looking to skip certain stages of sleep for efficiency then that is the wrong thing to do, the other stages of sleep have important restorative functions.

[Dichotohmy]

Are you saying you have an 8-hour rem latency? Do you base that off an EEG reading, or the fact that you wake up from rem sleep around 8 hours? Keep in mind you wont know if you were dreaming in the first four 1.5 hour sleep cycles if you stay asleep continuously through them.

In addition to melatonin, zinc and magnesium, choline supplements and Zacatechichi are some things to increase rem duration and possibly shorten rem latency.

[addforever]

acetylcholine is the main neurotransmitter of Rem sleep. thats why I would recommend ach sources like cdp-choline, Alpha gpc. Adding racetams (piracetam etc) might help you too.
you should search for lucid dreaming, it is basically REM sleep

[eon]

No. As I stated at the start of thread, someone had told me that REM sleep happens in the last 3 hours of an 8 hour sleep. He didn't have sources. All I know is I usually get a good night sleep taking B12 (methylcobalamin) prior to sleep and I sleep less feeling refreshed about 6 hours. If I could get to REM sleep in 2 hours and it's supposedly healthy, I'd do it. What I was trying to get at as well was if there was a supplement that could take me to REM sleep faster. I was told that GHB (aka Xyrem) which is prescribed for people who can't sleep, tend to fall asleep within 5 minutes of taking it. The sleep lasts for 4 hours and it is the best sleep ever, according to people.

 

This is the quote: "Your hormones do most of it's regenerating during the last 3 hours of an 8 hour sleep. If you don't get that deep rem sleep, you can cause all kinds of problems, including fat storage."

 

This person suggested ZMA, which is a zinc, magnesium aspartate and B6 supplement. Not sure if it's a new compound combining the 3 or simply a stack of 3, which I could supplement using what I already have: zinc picollinate, magnesium glycinate, and P-5-P (active B6). Is ZMA different?

 

I'm familiar with the dream herb Zacatechichi. Never tried it yet.

 

 

Are you saying you have an 8-hour rem latency? Do you base that off an EEG reading, or the fact that you wake up from rem sleep around 8 hours? Keep in mind you wont know if you were dreaming in the first four 1.5 hour sleep cycles if you stay asleep continuously through them.

In addition to melatonin, zinc and magnesium, choline supplements and Zacatechichi are some things to increase rem duration and possibly shorten rem latency.

 

Edited by eon, 30 November 2015 - 04:19 AM.

[eon]

This is what I took to take me to what I'm describing below:

 

500 mg vitamin C with rose hips, folate (5-methyltetrahydrofolic acid, 1600 mcg), p-5-p (40 mg), and b12 (methylcobalamin, 2000 mcg). These B vitamins are known to be used by some for "sleep".

 

after about within an hour I woke up from a very colorful dream/nightmare feeling well rested actually, not sure if that meant I was in REM sleep/lucid dream that I felt well rested after that. Even though I decided to sleep again because I felt after 1 hour just wasn't enough. I had a hard time going back to sleep after such realistic dream/nightmare.

 

Edited by eon, 04 December 2015 - 10:16 AM.

[gamesguru]

Melatonin and tryptophan, those you can supplement or get those through foods.  They also say something about valerian, but I'm thinking that's through GABA agonism, which isn't advisable long-term.

Perhaps acetylcholine boosters, huperzine/galatamine, bacopa or ginkgo?

 

Exercise appears to actually hurt REM sleep parameters[1a], [1b].  So does a ketogenic/VLC diet, better to be balanced[2].

 Donepezil in Alzheimer’s disease: From conventional trials to pharmacogenetics

Ramón Cacabelos.  2007.

• In AD cases, donepezil increases the percentage of REM (rapid eye movements) sleep to total sleep time, improving sleep efficiency and shortening sleep latency (Mizuno et al 2004; Moraes et al 2006). In healthy volunteers, donepezil specifically enhances the duration of REM sleep (% sleep period time) and the number of REMs (Nissen et al 2005). The activation of the visual association cortex during REM sleep by donepezil might be responsible for the development of abnormal dreams and nightmares in AD
• The brain cholinergic system modulates attention, learning, memory, REM sleep, the control of movements, and other peripheral functions
• Traditionally, the BF cholinergic system was described as a diffusely organized neuromodulator system that influences information processing throughout the cortex and hippocampus in the awake brain and during REM sleep (Woolf, 1991). There are a plethora of neurophysiological studies that demonstrated that pairing BF stimulation with the stimulation of thalamic afferents enhanced the processing of sensory inputs, while the loss of cortical cholinergic inputs or administration of m/nAChR antagonists abolished this effect (Sarter et al., 2005). Additionally, a considerable amount of evidence generated from psychopharmacological and lesion studies indicated that the BF cholinergic system supports attentional functions, working memory, and memory consolidation

DO HERBAL AGENTS HAVE A PLACE IN THE TREATMENT OF SLEEP PROBLEMS IN LONG-TERM CARE?
Mark Shimazaki, DO and Jennifer L. Martin, PhD.  2007.
The majority of studies of herbal agents to treat sleep disorders did not include elderly subjects in long-term care, the total number of available studies was small and most studies had small sample sizes. It appears, however, that valerian and melatonin may have some utility in the long-term care setting. Nonetheless, more research is needed. It is not yet clear whether these agents would be any more effective than current therapies or whether they may negatively interact with prescription medications. Overall, evaluation of CAM interventions in the long-term care setting needs further research before recommendations can be made regarding their use.

[BasicBiO]

ALCAR can definitely reduce one's need for sleep, but I don't know about the REM part.

[gamesguru]

via: https://www.google.c...rch?q=alcar rem

Deficiency in short-chain fatty acid beta-oxidation affects theta oscillations during sleep.

Tafti M1, Petit B, Chollet D, Neidhart E, de Bilbao F, Kiss JZ, Wood PA, Franken P.  2003.

In rodents, the electroencephalogram (EEG) during paradoxical sleep and exploratory behavior is characterized by theta oscillations. Here we show that a deficiency in short-chain acyl-coenzyme A dehydrogenase (encoded by Acads) in mice causes a marked slowing in theta frequency during paradoxical sleep only. We found Acads expression in brain regions involved in theta generation, notably the hippocampus. Microarray analysis of gene expression in mice with mutations in Acads indicates overexpression of Glo1 (encoding glyoxylase 1), a gene involved in the detoxification of metabolic by-products. Administration of acetyl-L-carnitine (ALCAR) to mutant mice significantly recovers slow theta and Glo1 overexpression. Thus, an underappreciated metabolic pathway involving fatty acid beta-oxidation also regulates theta oscillations during sleep.

 

Genome-wide association study of HLA-DQB1*06:02 negative essential hypersomnia

Seik-Soon Khor,1 Taku Miyagawa,corresponding author1 Hiromi Toyoda,1 Maria Yamasaki.  2013.

Additionally, acetyl-L-carnitine (ALCAR) is a potential treatment for neurological diseases such as Parkinson’s disease (Beal, 2003) and Alzheimer’s disease (Montgomery, Thal & Amrein, 2003); it is also known to restore β-oxidation of fatty acids in the mitochondria and rescued the slow theta frequency in REM sleep of mice lacking short-chain acyl-coenzyme A dehydrogenase (Tafti et al., 2003).

[Dichotohmy]

No. As I stated at the start of thread, someone had told me that REM sleep happens in the last 3 hours of an 8 hour sleep. He didn't have sources.

He didnt have any sources because this is wrong and woefully ignorant of sleep architecture. REM typically occurs in 20-30 minute blocks at the end of each 1.5 sleep cycle. Unless you have EEG data showing your REM latency is pushed back far beyond the norm, you're getting REM sleep before the last 3 hours of sleep.

I'm not sure if you're confusing REM for deep non-rem sleep where physiological repairs, hormone release, and the subjective restfulness of sleep is thought to occur. A lot of people seem to confuse the two. GHB produces a more subjective restful sleep because taking it results in a longer duration of N3 (deep nrem) sleep. That is to say that while deep nrem sleep typically occurs during the first half of an 8 hour sleep, it can occur in the last few hours as well. Science doesnt really know what REM is for, to this day, but it is thought to play a role in memory consolidation and perhaps consolidation of the processes that occur during nrem sleep.

Edited by Dichotohmy, 05 December 2015 - 12:50 AM.

[eon]

Yes I believe that's what I want to achieve. I want to be "restored" after just a few hours of sleep. I could care less about REM but if it happens then great. I was thinking REM is needed to happen for me to be "restored" which is why I was hoping if there was a way to speed up REM so that way I can be "restored" in just a few hours of sleep feeling "restored". If some magical pill takes me to REM sleep within 1 hour so that I can be "restored" in an hour of sleep, that would be one of my sci-fi fantasies. LOL

 

 

 

No. As I stated at the start of thread, someone had told me that REM sleep happens in the last 3 hours of an 8 hour sleep. He didn't have sources.

I'm not sure if you're confusing REM for deep non-rem sleep where physiological repairs, hormone release, and the subjective restfulness of sleep is thought to occur. 

 

 

Edited by eon, 07 December 2015 - 08:48 AM.

[eon]

I see so REM (stage 4?) can occur any time under 8 hours?

 

 

it would be neat to get less hours of sleep yet actually getting a complete cycle of sleep (stage 4 REM). Isn't GHB a good one for sleep? I'm not trying to get controversial here but just looking for answers.

 

Are you saying you have an 8-hour rem latency? Do you base that off an EEG reading, or the fact that you wake up from rem sleep around 8 hours? Keep in mind you wont know if you were dreaming in the first four 1.5 hour sleep cycles if you stay asleep continuously through them.

In addition to melatonin, zinc and magnesium, choline supplements and Zacatechichi are some things to increase rem duration and possibly shorten rem latency.

 

[eon]

is the biphasic sleep schedule working out for you?

 

I'm not sure I understood correctly your post. You want to reach the REM state faster, to be able to sleep less? Then simply sleep less and maybe take a nap. I'm trying to adapt to a biphasic sleep schedule at the moment: 4.5 hours each night from 2 AM to 6.5 AM then a nap in the afternoon, still to be defined. I want to hit REM faster for other purposes.

 

Sources: 

 

>>>https://en.wikipedia.../REM_rebound<<<

https://psychlopedia...com/REM rebound

https://en.wikipedia..._movement_sleep

 

[fairy]

I had trouble napping in the afternoons but no problem later in the evenings, which screwed my circadian rhythm.

On the other hand I can have two symmetric 3 hour cores; say from 21:00 to 00:00 and from 09:00 to 12:00.

Making the latter schedule a habit I'm sure I could shift and shrink/stretch windows to have a good core and a shorter nap.

[FW900]

An orexin receptor antagonist (e.g. Belsomra) paired with melatonin theoretically would increase the duration and hasten the onset of REM sleep. You'll feel very unrested afterward and remain somewhat tired but theoretically it could lend some degree of better memory consolidation.

 

 

I'm sure GHB (illegal) was said to give you the best sleep ever

 

This contradicts what you are asking for. REM sleep is not quality sleep.  GHB increases stage IV deep sleep and decreases the time spent in REM sleep, hence the reason why it is used for the treatment of narcolepsy. So if you're looking for quality sleep, don't bother taking compounds that increase time spent in REM and look instead for compounds that increase "slow wave" sleep, or deep sleep (e.g. stage III-IV).

Edited by FW900, 26 January 2017 - 05:55 PM.

[eon]

I see. So what compounds would you suggest? So if REM sleep is not quality sleep, what "type" of sleep is "quality" sleep? An 8-11 hour sleep binge?

[Mind_Paralysis]

I have had issues with this all my life.

 

I've finally figured it out though: I have a disorder similar to RLS, but different - it's called Periodic Limb Movement Disorder. Because of uncontrollable twitches which make my legs and sometimes my arms, hips or back, twitch during sleep, I come out of the deeper stages of sleep, achieving slightly higher arousal than I should, which then results in non-restful sleep.

 

Perhaps you have similar problems? RLS can also cause this problem, with non-restful sleep.

 

Anyways, here are the compounds which are proven to increase stage 4 - SLOW Wave Sleep:

 

Gabapentin

Pregabalin

 

Mirtazapine*

Trazodone*

Olanzapine*

 

Gaboxadole

Tiagabine

Ritanserin

Eplivanserin

 

 

 

I would suggest starting with whichever one you deem the easiest to obtain in your jurisdiction - most likely it'll be Mirtazapine.

 

 

*Non-restful sleep can have several causes - if you have PLMD like me though, sedating Histamine-antagonists and alpha-antagonists, ak a most sedating antidepressants, make the symptoms of twitching worse though, which makes the PLMD symptoms worse - i.e stay away from antidepressants like that!

 

 

I can vouch for Gabapentin myself.

 

 

References:

------------------

Enhancement of Slow Wave Sleep: Implications for Insomnia
https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC2824211/
  Neuronal ensembles sufficient for recovery sleep and the sedative actions of α2 adrenergic agonists

https://www.research...nergic_agonists

 

 

 

[psychejunkie]

REM stage is meaningless without efficient Deep Sleep;

from what I know about Sleep mechanisms and benefits, in REM stage those useless synapses marked by Deep Sleep stage would be purged to make new available space for useful ones.

without Deep/Slow-Wave Sleep, REM sleep would only make you dumber and dumber. that's why brain, naturally, only enters into REM stage after enough amount of Slow Wave Sleep.

 

If you need to sleep less, you should schedule an efficiently sleep timing instead.

The first complete Sleep Cycle is ~70 mins and Every other complete Sleep Cycle is ~90 minutes. 

 

 

REM sleep typically occupies 20–25% of total sleep in adult humans: about 90–120 minutes of a night's sleep. The first REM episode occurs about 70 minutes after falling asleep. Cycles of about 90 minutes each follow, with each cycle including a larger proportion of REM sleep.^[15]

 

first of all, you should get some ~7.5hrs sleep, as sleep deprivation causes a lots of REM rebounds.

 

 

REM deprivation causes a significant increase in the number of attempts to go into REM stage while asleep. On recovery nights, an individual will most likely move to stage 3 and REM sleep more quickly and experience an REM rebound, which refers to a great increase in the time spent in REM stage over normal levels. These findings are consistent with the idea that REM sleep is biologically necessary.^[64][65]

 

after you've done your REM rebounds, you should sleep for one 70 mins part and 90 mins parts of remaining.

for example: if you only have 4 hrs (240 mins) to sleep, you should only sleep for 160 mins, meaning: 2 complete sleep cycles.

 

Good luck

Edited by psychejunkie, 29 January 2017 - 08:22 AM.

[psychejunkie]

My mathematics sucks, but here's a quick formula for calculating actual amount of time needed for Complete Sleep Cycles (in minutes):

 

X => amount of available time for sleep (minutes), should be at least 70 mins.

 

Acsc(min) = 70 + ( [(X-70) / 90] * 90 )

[eon]

very interesting. any sources or I should do more research on this? So if what you're saying is 70 minutes is a complete sleep cycle, the talk of 6.5 to 7.5 hours of sleep is garbage or what? 70 minutes to 90 minutes of sleep feels more like a nap. I think my body would still be tired irregardless of whether I had a full sleep cycle. I tend to oversleep sometimes if I over stay my awakeness (say 20 hours), then I "crash" into a long sleep like 10 hours. 

[eon]

are you saying I should sleep twice daily, one part 70 minutes and the next 90 minutes? How many hours apart? Does it even matter? So if I sleep at 6 a.m. should I set my alarm at 7:10 a.m. (70 minute) sleep?

 

REM stage is meaningless without efficient Deep Sleep;

from what I know about Sleep mechanisms and benefits, in REM stage those useless synapses marked by Deep Sleep stage would be purged to make new available space for useful ones.

without Deep/Slow-Wave Sleep, REM sleep would only make you dumber and dumber. that's why brain, naturally, only enters into REM stage after enough amount of Slow Wave Sleep.

 

If you need to sleep less, you should schedule an efficiently sleep timing instead.

The first complete Sleep Cycle is ~70 mins and Every other complete Sleep Cycle is ~90 minutes. 

 

 

REM sleep typically occupies 20–25% of total sleep in adult humans: about 90–120 minutes of a night's sleep. The first REM episode occurs about 70 minutes after falling asleep. Cycles of about 90 minutes each follow, with each cycle including a larger proportion of REM sleep.^[15]

 

first of all, you should get some ~7.5hrs sleep, as sleep deprivation causes a lots of REM rebounds.

 

 

REM deprivation causes a significant increase in the number of attempts to go into REM stage while asleep. On recovery nights, an individual will most likely move to stage 3 and REM sleep more quickly and experience an REM rebound, which refers to a great increase in the time spent in REM stage over normal levels. These findings are consistent with the idea that REM sleep is biologically necessary.^[64][65]

 

after you've done your REM rebounds, you should sleep for one 70 mins part and 90 mins parts of remaining.

for example: if you only have 4 hrs (240 mins) to sleep, you should only sleep for 160 mins, meaning: 2 complete sleep cycles.

 

Good luck

 

[psychejunkie]

Nope!

 

I say you should sleep with complete cycles, if you don't have the time to sleep long, you can subtract and sleep for the exact amount of time needed for some complete sleep cycles and omit the remaining. the first cycle usually completes in 70 minutes and other following cycles (in same sleeping episode) completes every 90 minutes.

this way, you will sleep efficient, waking up restful and also will have healthy REM and non-REM stages

Edited by psychejunkie, 31 January 2017 - 06:35 AM.

[eon]

I'm going to keep reading this til I comprehend what you're saying regarding 70 minutes and 90 minutes. I really don't get it...

 

How does one know when the first cycle is actually in completion mode? To make things easier; how long does one need to sleep to get a restful sleep? Does it vary from person to person? I could sleep for 6 hours when not very tired and I could be fine but also could oversleep for 10 hours after being up for 20 hours and feel just OK.

Edited by eon, 02 February 2017 - 01:41 PM.