12 replies to this topic

[Wingless]

My tolerance for coffee was getting stupidly high recently, so started tapering down since Monday. I had been drinking three or more strong cups a day and feeling very little effect from them, so I decided to do a very aggressive taper. But incidentally I've noticed some effects that I can only attribute to caffeine cessation - headaches, irritability, unusually strong lethargy (anergia is a better term), anhedonia, poor balance/muscle coordination, impaired concentration, oversleeping, repetitive and negative thoughts...and more.

 

I'm about to drink a couple cups now after several days of agony and hopefully I'll feel normal afterwards. I have tried a number of substances and never been addicted to anything, but caffeine is just too easy to get your hands on and it's far too easy to rationalize drinking it. It seems like one of the only reliable ways to cure depressive symptoms without any serious side effects.

 

But my question is, how do you use coffee in a more reasonable way? How do you get the full range of benefits of it without developing a tolerance? I would like to be able to drink a few cups of tea a day and limit coffee use to a few days a week but even that seems difficult. I have tried caffeine capsules but those have never worked quite the same.

Edited by Wingless, 17 September 2016 - 07:16 PM.

[William Sterog]

The three last times I became addicted to caffeine I was also taking Himalaya Mindcare. The product really works as a nootropic, but is so demotivating that you'll need an stimulant to be productive. Well, the three times I went cold turkey from both the supplement and the caffeine, so it is hard to elucidate which one is the main responsable.

In every ocasion I experienced a myriad of symptoms, the craving of alcohol, and I never drink, was obviously fault of the influence in GABA receptors by Mindcare. By here is the crazy thing.

Each time I started to feel an awful increase in my head's blood flow, a disgusting and slighly painful, but very irritating, pulse in my temples. And this feeling became more intense until I was wondering if am I gonna get an stroke or will my skull crack open.

At this point, and yes, every time, something change, suddenly the disconfort reachs the highest point and, in just few seconds, I reach myself the nirvana, I feel such calm, such tremendous joy, such magnificent, superlative perfection, that I don't even care if I'm gonna die or live anymore. The sensation is short, but the calm remains a little longer. A tired sensation of unfading happiness.

The twird time I became dependent on purpose just to get this sensation again. I don't know what this is. A huge increase of anedosine mediated by the cessation of caffeine? An ecstatic seizure triggened by the downregulation in GABA receptors? Both?

[pamojja]

But my question is, how do you use coffee in a more reasonable way? How do you get the full range of benefits of it without developing a tolerance? I would like to be able to drink a few cups of tea a day and limit coffee use to a few days a week but even that seems difficult. I have tried caffeine capsules but those have never worked quite the same.

 
We are all so different. Only once thought myself really addicted to caffeine on multiple cups a day. But during an extended stay in a Black tea country without access to coffee, in those days, I found out I'm just as well without. And just gave my kilograms of coffee carried with me away.

 

Also Himalaya Mindcare, which I took on and of and very abruptly too, never caused withdrawal or bliss even remotely. Just shows how different we all react to mind altering substances. Therefore, in your case maybe limiting it to 1 early cup of coffee and teas the rest of the day as strategy might be a good idea.

[William Sterog]

 

But my question is, how do you use coffee in a more reasonable way? How do you get the full range of benefits of it without developing a tolerance? I would like to be able to drink a few cups of tea a day and limit coffee use to a few days a week but even that seems difficult. I have tried caffeine capsules but those have never worked quite the same.

 
We are all so different. Only once thought myself really addicted to caffeine on multiple cups a day. But during an extended stay in a Black tea country without access to coffee, in those days, I found out I'm just as well without. And just gave my kilograms of coffee carried with me away.

 

Also Himalaya Mindcare, which I took on and of and very abruptly too, never caused withdrawal or bliss even remotely. Just shows how different we all react to mind altering substances. Therefore, in your case maybe limiting it to 1 early cup of coffee and teas the rest of the day as strategy might be a good idea.

 

 

If you were taking black tea is normal that you didn't withdraw. About Mindcare, I toot it for really long periods, up to 4 months straight, and even 4 pills at day, two in the morning and two in the night. I think that this may be a little too much.

[pamojja]

 

Also Himalaya Mindcare, which I took on and of and very abruptly too, never caused withdrawal or bliss even remotely. Just shows how different we all react to mind altering substances. Therefore, in your case maybe limiting it to 1 early cup of coffee and teas the rest of the day as strategy might be a good idea.

 

If you were taking black tea is normal that you didn't withdraw. About Mindcare, I toot it for really long periods, up to 4 months straight, and even 4 pills at day, two in the morning and two in the night. I think that this may be a little too much.

 

Yea, a lot of black tea really might helped. Though since those early days 1 cup of coffee per day satisfies me. And without problems to go without. I take low dose Mentat, the original Indian version, since about 4 years. About 3 per day during my 6-week vacations in India, as it's liquid extract version too. Too bad it comes as syrup with sugar.
 

[William Sterog]

Also Himalaya Mindcare, which I took on and of and very abruptly too, never caused withdrawal or bliss even remotely. Just shows how different we all react to mind altering substances. Therefore, in your case maybe limiting it to 1 early cup of coffee and teas the rest of the day as strategy might be a good idea.

If you were taking black tea is normal that you didn't withdraw. About Mindcare, I toot it for really long periods, up to 4 months straight, and even 4 pills at day, two in the morning and two in the night. I think that this may be a little too much.

Yea, a lot of black tea really might helped. Though since those early days 1 cup of coffee per day satisfies me. And without problems to go without. I take low dose Mentat, the original Indian version, since about 4 years. About 3 per day during my 6-week vacations in India, as it's liquid extract version too. Too bad it comes as syrup with sugar.

I remember reading that Mindcare is more potent since it is designed to be sold in the more exigent/regulated western market. But I don't if this is true.

How was your experience with Mentat?

[pamojja]

I remember reading that Mindcare is more potent since it is designed to be sold in the more exigent/regulated western market. But I don't if this is true.

How was your experience with Mentat?

 

Usually don't feel anything from herbs, more in this thread. Other than many here, who have to 'feel' something. I'm already happy if a substance assists in overcoming a disability longterm.Take it for a, in my case, stress related chronic non-reversible disease (PAD).

 

 

Well, look at the difference in ingredients:

 

Mindcare

 

Serving Size: Two Capsule

Amount Per Serving

 

1.17 g Proprietary herbal blend:

 

bacopa (whole plant), gota kola (whole plant), dwarf morning glory (whole plant), ashwagandha (root), jatamansi (rhizome), Indian valerin (rhizome), vidanga (fruit), almond (seed), Indian tinospora (stem), chebulic myrobalan (fruit rind), amla (fruit), oroxylum (bark), celastrus (fruit), curculigo (root), velvet bean (seed), cardamom (fruit), arjuna (bark), fennel (seed), finger-leaf morning glory (tuber), ginger (rhizome), belleric myrobalan (fruit rind), nutmeg (nut), clove (flower bud).

 

The dosage for MindCare is two capsules, twice daily with meals.

 

Dosage: 2 tablets twice a day

Each Mentat tablet contains:

 

Exts.

136 mg   Brahmi (Bacopa monnieri)
70 mg    Mandukaparni (Centella asiatica)
52 mg    Ashvagandha (Withania somnifera)
52 mg    Vishnukrantha (Evolvulus alsinoides)
52 mg    Jatamansi (Nardostachys jatamansi)
50 mg   Tagara (Valeriana wallichii Syn. V.jatamansi)
50 mg    Vidanga (Embelia ribes)
50 mg    Vatadha (Prunus amygdalus)
42 mg    Vacha (Acorus calamus)
36 mg    Haritaki (Terminalia chebula)
36 mg    Amalaki (Emblica officinalis)
36 mg   Guduchi (Tinospora cordifolia)
32 mg   Jyotishmati (Celastrus paniculatus)
32 mg   Shyonaka (Oroxylum indicum)

Pdrs.

80 mg   Brahmi (Bacopa monnieri)
18 mg   Kapikachchhu (Mucuna pruriens)
18 mg   Ela (Elettaria cardamomum)
18 mg   Arjuna (Terminalia arjuna)
18 mg   Shatapushpa (Foeniculum vulgare)
18 mg   Vidari (Ipomoea digitata)
14 mg   Sunthi (Zingiber officinale)
14 mg   Vibhitaki (Terminalia belirica Syn. T.bellirica)
14 mg   Jatiphalam (Myristica fragrans)
10 mg   Lavanga (Syzygium aromaticum)
3 mg     Mukta pishti (Pearl purified)

 

Daily recommended dose for Mindcare is 4 capsules per day (exactly what you were taking), which contains exactly 2.32 gram of powdered herbs.

 

Daily recommended dose for Mentat is 4 tablets, which would contain according to supplement facts 900 mg of powdered herbs and 2.9 g of herbal extracts.

 

The main caracteristic of Mindcare - which I never tried - it's a proprietary blend of herbal powders, which as the original Mentat builds on a carefully designed synergistic blend. Otherwise this dose wouldn't make any sense, since the usually minimum recommended dose, for example for Ashwangandha or Brahmi powder, is at 3, upto 5 or 10 grams per day respectively.

 

 

..since it is designed to be sold in the more exigent/regulated western market.

 

Therefore it also doesn't contains ingredients of the well tested and studied Indian blend (ie. Mentat) which would be prohibited in west. Like Vacha or Mukta pishti.

 

On the other hand the fact that Mentat contains more herbs as extracts doesn't has to mean much either, since in India extracts aren't as well defined as in the west. I only found out through Himalaya's flagship product LIV.52, of which there exists a powder and an extract version, through each respective dosage recommendation, that at least in LIV.52 extracts seems of a 1:2 strength.

 

 

 

PS: on a second thought, though I actually don't have a working Mg scale at hand, 3.8 gram of content in 4 small tablets of Mentat is actually impossible ever to fit. Therefore is suspect they use the variant way to indicate the amount of plant extracts very common in India in the supplement facts of Mentat, by giving the amount of dry plant powder, from which the extract was made from...

Edited by pamojja, 18 September 2016 - 10:00 PM.

[Geoffrey]

Sunifiram resets caffeine tolerance almost immediately, and painlessly. To such an extent that you need to scale back caffeine consumption quite drastically on commencing sunifiram. See the "Sunifiram?" thread for several people's experience with this.

[Wingless]

Sunifiram resets caffeine tolerance almost immediately, and painlessly. To such an extent that you need to scale back caffeine consumption quite drastically on commencing sunifiram. See the "Sunifiram?" thread for several people's experience with this.

 

I have no intention of ever taking a research chemical like that.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

Baby's first caffeine withdrawal. It's always this bad for me.

[William Sterog]

 

Usually don't feel anything from herbs, more in this thread. Other than many here, who have to 'feel' something. I'm already happy if a substance assists in overcoming a disability longterm.Take it for a, in my case, stress related chronic non-reversible disease (PAD).

 

 

Well, look at the difference in ingredients:

 

Mindcare

 

Serving Size: Two Capsule

Amount Per Serving

 

1.17 g Proprietary herbal blend:

 

bacopa (whole plant), gota kola (whole plant), dwarf morning glory (whole plant), ashwagandha (root), jatamansi (rhizome), Indian valerin (rhizome), vidanga (fruit), almond (seed), Indian tinospora (stem), chebulic myrobalan (fruit rind), amla (fruit), oroxylum (bark), celastrus (fruit), curculigo (root), velvet bean (seed), cardamom (fruit), arjuna (bark), fennel (seed), finger-leaf morning glory (tuber), ginger (rhizome), belleric myrobalan (fruit rind), nutmeg (nut), clove (flower bud).

 

The dosage for MindCare is two capsules, twice daily with meals.

 

Dosage: 2 tablets twice a day

Each Mentat tablet contains:

 

Exts.

136 mg   Brahmi (Bacopa monnieri)
70 mg    Mandukaparni (Centella asiatica)
52 mg    Ashvagandha (Withania somnifera)
52 mg    Vishnukrantha (Evolvulus alsinoides)
52 mg    Jatamansi (Nardostachys jatamansi)
50 mg   Tagara (Valeriana wallichii Syn. V.jatamansi)
50 mg    Vidanga (Embelia ribes)
50 mg    Vatadha (Prunus amygdalus)
42 mg    Vacha (Acorus calamus)
36 mg    Haritaki (Terminalia chebula)
36 mg    Amalaki (Emblica officinalis)
36 mg   Guduchi (Tinospora cordifolia)
32 mg   Jyotishmati (Celastrus paniculatus)
32 mg   Shyonaka (Oroxylum indicum)

Pdrs.

80 mg   Brahmi (Bacopa monnieri)
18 mg   Kapikachchhu (Mucuna pruriens)
18 mg   Ela (Elettaria cardamomum)
18 mg   Arjuna (Terminalia arjuna)
18 mg   Shatapushpa (Foeniculum vulgare)
18 mg   Vidari (Ipomoea digitata)
14 mg   Sunthi (Zingiber officinale)
14 mg   Vibhitaki (Terminalia belirica Syn. T.bellirica)
14 mg   Jatiphalam (Myristica fragrans)
10 mg   Lavanga (Syzygium aromaticum)
3 mg     Mukta pishti (Pearl purified)

 

Daily recommended dose for Mindcare is 4 capsules per day (exactly what you were taking), which contains exactly 2.32 gram of powdered herbs.

 

Daily recommended dose for Mentat is 4 tablets, which would contain according to supplement facts 900 mg of powdered herbs and 2.9 g of herbal extracts.

 

The main caracteristic of Mindcare - which I never tried - it's a proprietary blend of herbal powders, which as the original Mentat builds on a carefully designed synergistic blend. Otherwise this dose wouldn't make any sense, since the usually minimum recommended dose, for example for Ashwangandha or Brahmi powder, is at 3, upto 5 or 10 grams per day respectively.

 

 

 

Therefore it also doesn't contains ingredients of the well tested and studied Indian blend (ie. Mentat) which would be prohibited in west. Like Vacha or Mukta pishti.

 

On the other hand the fact that Mentat contains more herbs as extracts doesn't has to mean much either, since in India extracts aren't as well defined as in the west. I only found out through Himalaya's flagship product LIV.52, of which there exists a powder and an extract version, through each respective dosage recommendation, that at least in LIV.52 extracts seems of a 1:2 strength.

 

 

 

PS: on a second thought, though I actually don't have a working Mg scale at hand, 3.8 gram of content in 4 small tablets of Mentat is actually impossible ever to fit. Therefore is suspect they use the variant way to indicate the amount of plant extracts very common in India in the supplement facts of Mentat, by giving the amount of dry plant powder, from which the extract was made from...

 

 

The main reason behind my negative to order Mentat, despite the fact of being dramatically cheaper than Mindcare, 600 capsules of Mentat are cheaper than 60 of Mindcare, is the presence of Sodium/Methylparaben, Sodium/Propylparaben and colour Brilliant Blue in its composition.

 

The thing is that I got an acute and very noticiable sedation effect from Mindcare, even benzo-ish. Of course, it could be placebo, but I've tried tons of supplements and most of the ingredients of Mindcare separately without getting the same feeling.

 

Excuse me for this way too long off-topic.

[Heisok]

Sorry to add my 2 cents in this late in your thread. I think you have gotten some good advice, if not a complete solution to being able to use coffee sparingly. For me, coffee withdrawals have always been terrible. Headaches, lethargy, moodiness and probably more.

 

The two things I can say with certainty are that I feel far better off of caffeine than on. More steady energy through the day, better sleep, less anxious, less reactionary to situations and even a better ability to focus. This included long periods at the University. The second thing is that once off, I had to completely abstain. No nursing a couple now and then. One more is that I never end up off for more than several months at a time. Good luck.

 

[pamojja]

The main reason behind my negative to .. Mentat .. is the presence of Sodium/Methylparaben, Sodium/Propylparaben and colour Brilliant Blue [/size]in its composition.

 
Agreed. I try to avoid these as much a possible by avoiding processed food and cosmetics, where they naturally add up very fast. Interestingly, Mentat is the only supplement I have to keep out of any day-box in countries like India, because they're loved by tiny ants which get through everything and instantly eat them up. Funny incident that Mentat tablets have the same shape, color and size as the Smarties on the wikipedia site about Brilliant blue...

Edited by pamojja, 20 September 2016 - 08:28 PM.