19 replies to this topic

[capctr]

So, in the last decade I've discovered and become obsessed with free diving. The experience of diving for depth and time in clear, tropical waters is like FINALLY finding a sort of nirvana for me.
This year, I'm planning two trips, one with my brothers, our wives, and my children(two of which are younger) to Maui, where my time in the water will be limited by trying to ensure everyone is safe and having fun making family memories; and the other trip is to Dean's Deep Blue, one of the deepest sinkholes in the world, just off the Bahamas(you can see it in Guillame Neris "Freefall" video on you tube). I will be attempting the master class, and will have the rare opportunity to dive deeper than ever in my life.
Is there a supplement stack to help increase oxygen efficiency in blood stream as well as enhance body's ability to function with higher CO2 levels?
Thanks!

[Dorian Grey]

IP6 (Inositol Hexaphosphate) has some interesting effects on "increased O2 release" from hemoglobin.  

 

Long-term physiological effects of enhanced O2 release by inositol hexaphosphate-loaded erythrocytes

 

Abstract: https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/3116545

 

And Full Monty: http://www.pnas.org/...9/6894.full.pdf

 

"This leads to significant rightward shifts of the HbO2 dissociation curves with in vitro P50 (partial pressure of O2 at 50% Hb saturation)"

 

What I understand this to mean is, IP6 appears to allow hemoglobin to give up its oxygen payload more efficiently?  

 

"It appears that erythrocytes capable of releasing greater amounts of 02 within the limits of physiological P02 values"

 

"Indeed, the heart reacts to the higher 02-releasing capacity of InsP6-erythrocytes by reducing its output and thus maintaining the normal 02 consumption and arterial pressure"

 

"We have demonstrated that in the presence of high P50 a sufficient 02 supply may be achieved with substantially lower values of blood flow."

 

I really don't know how this would effect oxygen transfer at the increased partial pressures of free diving, but you might want to explore this further.  

 

I also don't know how this might effect or possibly even predispose "Freediving black-out", which is something I hope you might wish to avoid!  Something you'd want to experiment with before you attempted any extreme dives.  

 

https://en.wikipedia...diving_blackout

 

"Freediving blackout has a high fatality rate, and mostly involves males younger than 40 years"

 

Just wanted to show you this to see what you make of it.  I really don't fully understand it myself.  

 

P.S. I didn't give the negative tag to your post.  Please pardon our manners.  

Edited by synesthesia, 12 February 2017 - 09:00 AM.

[platypus]

That is extremely dangerous. Friends of friends have died freediving. Pushing for records is dumb IMO, don't let your ego kill you. 

[Andey]

Not exactly supplements but Wim Hof breathing method and some kind of O2 Trainer could be beneficial.

I am also under the impression that its limited by relaxation levels (when your body is familiar with high CO levels and dont fight it) not physical limits per se.

[capctr]

Andey
THANK YOU!!!
I've heard of this guy in passing, but had no idea he had a method. I've done apnea training and ice baths, but for different reasons, and never tied them together along with all the other parts of the method.
I'm buying the full program and starting asap(thank goodness I still have several months before either trip to modify my training). I'm thinking I should record the progress as well as my dives, to use as motivation for getting out of the inevitable rut I'll find myself in down the road.

[Darryl]

I've been an avid scuba diver for 11 years, and personally wouldn't dive below snorkelling depths without an air supply, but I admire some apnea divers like William Trubridge. Fantastic physical condition:

 

 

 

[ta5]

For longevity I think you want ferritin and iron at the very low end of normal. But, if you want to maximize your oxygen carrying capacity, you would want your ferritin higher. Get an anemia panel, and then take iron to get your ferritin where you want it.

 

The selfhacked guy has a list of several things to increase EPO at the bottom of the page:

https://selfhacked.c...thopoietin-101/

Google for other ways to increase EPO.

 

Consider beetroot juice:

http://www.ergo-log....trootjuice.html

 

[capctr]

HAW!! Trubridge is the one teaching the class at Dean's!!
You all have raised valid, and helpful points that I never thought of. I am so very grateful for your input. Please continue, as I can use all the help I can get

[ta5]

 

Not exactly supplements but Wim Hof breathing method and some kind of O2 Trainer could be beneficial.

 

I'm reading that hypoxic training, or simply holding your breath, can stimulate production of EPO.

[capctr]

I run with a high altitude mask on in the Rocky Mountains, and I do apnea training(though not at the same time). By the I get to an oxygen rich environment(say, the Hawaiian Islands), my stamina is as high as it ever has been; however, I feel it could be far higher.
As I'm turning 48 this summer, I feel the need to do this while I still canLOL!

[Andey]

Andey
THANK YOU!!!
I've heard of this guy in passing, but had no idea he had a method. I've done apnea training and ice baths, but for different reasons, and never tied them together along with all the other parts of the method.
I'm buying the full program and starting asap(thank goodness I still have several months before either trip to modify my training). I'm thinking I should record the progress as well as my dives, to use as motivation for getting out of the inevitable rut I'll find myself in down the road.

 

I dont think its necessary to do ice baths to get breathing improvements. As I understand synergy between breathing and bathing parts are because breathing are somehow desensitise pain receptors. Ice bathing in its turn improve mitochondrial function and count (brown fat). You could look at youtube, its a very simple technic.

 

Here we have also 'Frolov trainer'. Its a simple construction with 2 cylinders and pipe and excercise is fast breath in (3-4 sec) very slow breath out (as far as you could tolerate) continiously for 20-30 min. I got to 40-50 sec breathing out phase after week or two of training. 

Wim Hom method feels like a party trick/body hack, Frolov excercise feels like a excercise, its hard to progress time in it. But overall effect on breath hold is similar in my experience. I was able to progress quickly from 40 sec holding to 70 -75 sec. I measure it without air in lungs and till the first discomfort(its how its recommended in russian literature, as it shows more consistent results). It would be +30 sec or more with full breath in and hold until possible.

Edited by Andey, 13 February 2017 - 09:56 AM.

[capctr]

I use ice baths to combat insomnia, muscle inflammation, and to keep my subcutaneous layer of fat low enough to maintain a six pack(at 47, I'll take any help I can getLOL).

[platypus]

To me this thread is analogous to "Supps to enhance wingsuit proximity flying & BASE jumping?", irresponsible, even if it's plausible that some supps would increase split-second judgments and reaction speed.... 

[capctr]

How do you figure, platy? Split second decisions and reaction time aren't exactly mandatory for this activity; rather, free diving is more of a...zen thing, that requires calm. Unless, I guess, you run into a great white(although, calm rational would better your chance at survival).

[joelcairo]

I assume he's talking about the extreme risk of death involved, even among the most highly skilled participants. This site is called Longecity after all, and most of the threads are about ways to slightly increase lifespan or slightly decrease the odds of serious diseases.

[capctr]

Ohhhh...yeah, I'm not THAT extreme in how far I'll push my limits, as I enjoy living, and my family way too much to shuffle off this mortal coil any time soon.

[capctr]

But if I could just reach 150', I'll be satisfied...for a while.

[Ark]

Epo
Cordyceps
Activegon
Provigil
Dan Shen
Schisandra berry
How Hong Hua
SR9009

Edited by Ark, 15 February 2017 - 08:06 AM.

[joelcairo]

Don't go overboard trying to increase EPO, since as you probably know this led to the deaths of quite a few high performance cyclists back in the Lance Armstrong era.

 

You could also look at ITPP, which improves oxygen delivery to tissues and exercise output in general. It could either be a good thing (improving supply) or a bad thing (using oxygen up faster). I don't know much about the exact mechanism by which it works, so I wouldn't even want to speculate.

 

Anyway it seems to me that relying on ANY type of supplement could make the sport enormously more dangerous. What if you get a boost from cordyceps, for example, and can go for a certain percent longer. Then you do your dive trying to set a personal best, and on the way up you discover that oops the benefit is only temporary until your body adapts and develops a tolerance.

[aconita]

Turnbuckle did some experiments with C60oo and results were quite amazing, if I do remember well apnea holding time was doubled almost immediately.

 

You have to dig out the tread if you care since I don't remember which one was, anyway in the C60 section, obviously.

 

...or just PM him to ask about.

 

Keep in mind that C60 is still very experimental and not necessarily safe, to use it in deep diving even more so, risk may be really high and outcomes unknown, be aware!

 

I mention it just because you are asking and AFAIK C60oo is the compound providing the most impressive result in this regard, again, please, take this just as an information, not a suggestion, nobody really knows why and how it works, nobody knows long terms possible side effects and nobody knows what would happen in deep diving, likely nobody ever tried yet.

 

My personal opinion is that it is way more interesting to search into relaxation techniques than in supplements, it would be more fun and a deeper positive experience too.