14 replies to this topic

[gavrilov]

[Reposted from "Eggs are good for you again" topic]:

I wonder whether somebody here had any positive or negative experience with this nutritional formula Lucidal, which is claimed to be:

"... the first and ONLY cognitive enhancing supplement of its kind that has been clinically tested by an independent 3rd party and shown to dramatically reduce or eliminate feelings of sadness, anxiety, moodiness, irritability, mental fatigue, and "brain fog". And there are no side effects with Lucidal, because Lucidal is not a drug; it's a proprietary, patented nutritional formula of fifty natural and organic ingredients."

Had anybody here tried this formula to comment on its efficacy?

Before discussing further details on this formula, its composition, etc., it helps first to find out if it works at all.

Thanks!

[Alpha-Frequency]

Thanks for the heads up- I will look into this.
H/N

[meursault]

[Reposted from "Eggs are good for you again" topic]:

Before discussing further details on this formula, its composition, etc., it helps first to find out if it works at all.

Thanks!

It helps to know this information so one can determine whether it will work at all.

Edited by AntonW, 17 January 2008 - 05:32 AM.

[meursault]

Proprietary Lucidal™ Mixture (from http://www.lucidal.c...ngredients.cfm)

820 mg

†
Creatine Monohydrate, DMAE Bitartrate, Choline, Chondroitin Sulfate, Glucosamine HCl, L-Glutamine, L-Pyroglutamic Acid, Inositol, Alpha-Ketoglutaric Acid, Soy Bean Oil Powder, Taurine, Trimethylglycine, Ginkgo Biloba (leaf), Green Tea (leaf) Extract, Soy Isoflavones, Acetyl L-Carnitine, Alpha Lipoic Acid, N-Acetyl L-Tyrosine, PABA, Vinpocetine (whole plant), Bilberry (fruit), Grape Seed Extract, Maritime Pine Bark Extract, Coenzyme Q 10, Lycopene, Resveratrol (root), Huperzine A (whole plant), and Vanadium


This isn't impressive at all. There's an average of 30mg for each ingredient and effects aren't seen for many of these until much higher dosages. Don't waste your time.

Edited by AntonW, 17 January 2008 - 05:36 AM.

[gavrilov]

Proprietary Lucidal™ Mixture (from http://www.lucidal.c...ngredients.cfm)

820 mg

†
Creatine Monohydrate, DMAE Bitartrate, Choline, Chondroitin Sulfate, Glucosamine HCl, L-Glutamine, L-Pyroglutamic Acid, Inositol, Alpha-Ketoglutaric Acid, Soy Bean Oil Powder, Taurine, Trimethylglycine, Ginkgo Biloba (leaf), Green Tea (leaf) Extract, Soy Isoflavones, Acetyl L-Carnitine, Alpha Lipoic Acid, N-Acetyl L-Tyrosine, PABA, Vinpocetine (whole plant), Bilberry (fruit), Grape Seed Extract, Maritime Pine Bark Extract, Coenzyme Q 10, Lycopene, Resveratrol (root), Huperzine A (whole plant), and Vanadium


This isn't impressive at all. There's an average of 30mg for each ingredient and effects aren't seen for many of these until much higher dosages. Don't waste your time.

***

Still the question remains, if somebody here tried it, and what was the result (if any).

Thanks!

[meursault]

Still the question remains, if somebody here tried it, and what was the result (if any).

Thanks!

You seem like a viral marketer!
Here's my evidence:
http://www.imminst.o...o...st&p=219390 - "Interestingly," you seem hung up on this product.
http://www.imminst.o...o...st&p=219231 - Do you care to try it and comment on its efficacy?


Anyone seriously interested in nootropics should not consider anything with a "Proprietary" mixture. There is no way to determine the amount of each component, and besides being ineffective, this could potentially be dangerous.

Edited by AntonW, 17 January 2008 - 06:22 PM.

[kenj]

>>> This isn't impressive at all. There's an average of 30mg for each ingredient and effects aren't seen for many of these until much higher dosages. Don't waste your time.

Actually lower doses of several compounds can act together for a powerful, synergistic effect IME. Higher doses may be needed to test a compound's clinical effect, but in everyday life sometimes it's not an optimal approach; - combining several strong acetylcholine precursors can whack the serotonin system, for example.
No idea of this product, BTW.

[gavrilov]

>>> "This isn't impressive at all. There's an average of 30mg for each ingredient and effects aren't seen for many of these until much higher dosages. Don't waste your time."

Actually lower doses of several compounds can act together for a powerful, synergistic effect IME. Higher doses may be needed to test a compound's clinical effect, but in everyday life sometimes it's not an optimal approach; - combining several strong acetylcholine precursors can whack the serotonin system, for example.
No idea of this product, BTW.

***

I agree.

Also, there are no theoretical ways to find out if something works or not, only empirical observations matter.

[edward]

I agree nothing special especially for $74.95 a bottle! Granted there are some good things in it and they do work well together... However the really good actives are in the 802mg Proprietary Lucidal™ Mixture... So who knows how much of each compound is in it. I HATE PROPRIETARY MIXTURES. The company could put 800 mg of say Creatine and then 2 mg of trace amounts of all the other stuff. Personally I suggest you stay away. And I agree the person who started this post is acting awfully like a spammer/viral marketer... Edit: even though in his defense he has been a member here for almost a year and has over 200 posts

Edited by edward, 18 January 2008 - 01:13 AM.

[Shepard]

And I agree the person who started this post is acting awfully like a spammer/viral marketer... Edit: even though in his defense he has been a member here for almost a year and has over 200 posts

http://longevity-sci...CV-gavrilov.htm

I would imagine it's safe to say that Dr. Gavrilov isn't a viral spammer, he's just looking for first-hand reports from people that might have tried the product/protocol.

[gavrilov]

Thank you, Shepard !

Yes, it may be interesting to know the first-hand experience of people here, who might have tried the Lucidal.

Why? Here is a relevant excerpt from a recent book, written by a medical doctor (pages 112-113):

"Because many of us take a daily multivitamin or mineral preparation, we must be careful not to combine nutritional supplements that contain excessive amounts of any of the various components. This frequently requires a carefully orchestrated balancing act to achieve effective amounts of the desired ingredients and not too much of any one of them. If you are taking supplemental nutrients already, especially if they include some of the brain specific nutrients I have discussed, you must account for what you are currently taking and appropriately adjust dosages to keep everything at the desired amount.
Another approach is to take a brain-specific nutrient product that has been clinically tested and found to be both safe and effective. One possibility is a product I designed and tested called Lucidal ..."


Reference:

The Brain Trust Program: A Scientifically Based Three-Part Plan to Improve Memory, Elevate Mood, Enhance Attention, Alleviate Migraine and Menopausal Symptoms, and Boost Mental Energy
by Larry McCleary, M.D.
http://tinyurl.com/2t6jcv

[niner]

Thank you, Shepard !

Yes, it may be interesting to know the first-hand experience of people here, who might have tried the Lucidal.

Why? Here is a relevant excerpt from a recent book, written by a medical doctor (pages 112-113):

"Because many of us take a daily multivitamin or mineral preparation, we must be careful not to combine nutritional supplements that contain excessive amounts of any of the various components. This frequently requires a carefully orchestrated balancing act to achieve effective amounts of the desired ingredients and not too much of any one of them. If you are taking supplemental nutrients already, especially if they include some of the brain specific nutrients I have discussed, you must account for what you are currently taking and appropriately adjust dosages to keep everything at the desired amount.
Another approach is to take a brain-specific nutrient product that has been clinically tested and found to be both safe and effective. One possibility is a product I designed and tested called Lucidal ..."

Is this ethical? He's pimping his own product from an ostensibly informative book. Between that and the "proprietary mixture", I don't like the smell of things.

[gavrilov]

Is this ethical? He's pimping his own product from an ostensibly informative book. Between that and the "proprietary mixture", I don't like the smell of things.

Yes, many valid questions could be raised here, but the key question remains whether Lucidal works or not

[gavrilov]

Greetings,

I have just got the following message:

"....I see that you found Lucidal, but am not sure whether you saw the report on its trial in The Internet Journal of Nutrition and Wellness. In case you didn't, but would like to read it, the link to it is:

http://www.ispub.com...l4n1/mental.xml
..."

Here are some excerpts from this link:


James A. Blum: A Nutritionally Based Approach for Functional Mental Enhancement Assessment Using a Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled, Randomized Clinical Trial. The Internet Journal of Nutrition and Wellness. 2007. Volume 4 Number 1.

Abstract

Background: Consumers are using a number of alternative therapies for a variety of health issues. There is frequently no sound information discussing efficacy or toxicity upon which to base a sound decision regarding proposed therapies.

Aim of the Study: To help address these concerns, a group of nutrients with potential efficacy in improving mental function was evaluated in a clinical setting.

Material and Methods: A prospective, double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled 3-month duration human clinical trial was performed to test a nutrient formulation for impact on parameters of mental function. Forty-one subjects were studied. Age ranged from 35-70 years. Two-thirds were from 40-60 years old which is considered middle age. This is a time when certain aspects of mental function decline. Subjects underwent baseline neuropsychological testing and were then randomized to receive placebo or active product. After three months, repeat testing was then performed and inter-group comparisons were analyzed.

Results: Baseline profiles and neuropsychological test results were similar between groups. There was no toxicity associated with use of the nutritional formulation. Subjects receiving active product demonstrated statistically significant improvements on numerous clinical endpoints of the testing protocol.

Conclusions: In this contingent of subjects, nutritional enhancement over a 3-month interval improved performance on various components of the brain testing protocol. This approach may be useful for functional mental enhancement during the mid-life period. The results need to be confirmed in a larger study.

[ilanso]

>>> "This isn't impressive at all. There's an average of 30mg for each ingredient and effects aren't seen for many of these until much higher dosages. Don't waste your time."

Actually lower doses of several compounds can act together for a powerful, synergistic effect IME. Higher doses may be needed to test a compound's clinical effect, but in everyday life sometimes it's not an optimal approach; - combining several strong acetylcholine precursors can whack the serotonin system, for example.
No idea of this product, BTW.

***

I agree.

Also, there are no theoretical ways to find out if something works or not, only empirical observations matter.

There may be theoretical ways for one or two ingredients - but scores? (think of the n-body problem, where n>2) How can someone have the gumption to state: "I have come up with this long just right list of entirely mutually compatible supplements (all in the right amount) - it works; just trust me and buy it"?
How is this different from any of the lists of supplements often discussed on this board? The only way it would is if some proof (theoretical or via studies) were offered. In its absence, it's just another empiric "this is my supplementation" claim. In fact, it smacks more of a culinary recipe than fundamental science.
We may be a bunch of guinea pigs, but like to think of ourselves as enlightened that way