106 replies to this topic

[Trias]

inarchunite, yes, I admit there are many false gods in the world and people worship them. That's a matter of history that can't be reasonably denied. But I say there is only one real God and He's the one who produced the Bible both Old and New Testaments. I also say if we take that Bible and interpret it and apply it correctly it provides the best possible program for obtaining increased life spans and eventual immortality.

I guess I'm going to have to write a book that better explains my position in greater detail. The only problem is I have undiagnosed Attention Deficit Disorder and writing doesn't come easy to me like it does others. Being in these Immortality Institute forums debating like this and picking up information and ideas from others, is a big help and step towards producing such a book.

Checkout those links I've been providing to The Good News magazine and their literature. If you like philosophy and religion as I'm sure you do, you should study their thought provoking literature for greater insight - even if you disagree.

And yet you insist on evading my question. Why?

Still, William, you haven't answered: what makes you so certain your particular religion, dogma and depiction of a deity is correct, while all other forms of belief are false?

you say that "there is only one real God and He's the one who produced the Bible both Old and New Testaments." -- so you say! -but billions of other believers will disagree.

more than 2,000,000,000 muslims believe in the obsolescence of your bibles, claiming only the Ku'ran is to be followed. Claiming the same god you speak of, want people today to embrace Islam instead of chrisitainity; they will claim Jesus was merely a prophet for Islam and his message was misintrepreted.

What would you say to the common Muslim, William?

Convince me your religion retains greater liklihood of being genuine, that in comparison to all other earthly doctrines.

[william]

inarchunite, the only thing I can tell the Muslim is to read the book of Zechariah of the Old Testament - paying special attention to chapter 12, at http://www.biblegate...r=12&version=64. Islam will not succeed against Israel. God will eventually intervene in Israel's favor. That's what the prophecy says and it will come to pass. Make no mistake about it.

[Infernity]

QUOTE (William)
Islam will not succeed against Israel. God will eventually intervene in Israel's favor. That's what the prophecy says and it will come to pass. Make no mistake about it.

Yeah we've done it before, we quite expect it, the Israeli army is quite strong.
We can't wish them to lose in order to show you you are wrong about the God issue...

-Infernity

[william]

QUOTE (William)
Islam will not succeed against Israel. God will eventually intervene in Israel's favor. That's what the prophecy says and it will come to pass. Make no mistake about it.

Yeah we've done it before, we quite expect it, the Israeli army is quite strong.
We can't wish them to lose in order to show you you are wrong about the God issue...

-Infernity

Aha!! So you and inarchunite are children of Israel? Are you waiting for the prophet Elijah? Be careful how you answer here. inarchunite had me fooled there for a minute.

I'm frequently accused of being a Jew. The literature I advocate is pro-Israel. They also say the United States and Great Britain are largely made up of the lost 10 tribes of Israel. See http://www.gnmagazine.org/booklets/US/ for an excellent read on the subject.

[Infernity]

Oh whatever, I figured it is not important how much sense there is in one's words when they face a religious essence. You guys are deaf for sense, apparently.


Why for Tyr's sake would a God care so bloody much about you, you are mere a young tiny essence on an infinite ancient universe, of many lives and marvels.
Your mind and many others' on this so tiny meaningless planet had created God(s).



-Infernity

[william]

Oh whatever, I figured it is not important how much sense there is in one's words when they face a religious essence.  You guys are deaf for sense, apparently.


Why for Tyr's sake would a God care so bloody much about you, you are mere a young tiny essence on an infinite ancient universe, of many lives and marvels.
Your mind and many others' on this so tiny meaningless planet had created God(s).



-Infernity

If I had your mother's e-mail address I would contact her immediately and let her know what her son is putting on the Internet. It's a shame! In fact, who is your Rabbi?

[Live Forever]

Oh whatever, I figured it is not important how much sense there is in one's words when they face a religious essence.  You guys are deaf for sense, apparently.


Why for Tyr's sake would a God care so bloody much about you, you are mere a young tiny essence on an infinite ancient universe, of many lives and marvels.
Your mind and many others' on this so tiny meaningless planet had created God(s).



-Infernity

If I had your mother's e-mail address I would contact her immediately and let her know what her son is putting on the Internet. It's a shame! In fact, who is your Rabbi?

Infernity is a girl.

[william]

Live Forever, it doesn't make any difference. Doesn't she know that a Jew without God is nothing in this world?

[zoolander]

The last 7 or so replies in this topic have not discussed or made reference to prayer or heart patients. This is a more appropriate place to debate/discuss religious belief

[Infernity]

If I had your mother's e-mail address I would contact her immediately and let her know what her son is putting on the Internet. It's a shame! In fact, who is your Rabbi?

She knows what I put on the net, none of us believes in God, hun. I have no Rabbi LOL.

Live Forever, it doesn't make any difference. Doesn't she know that a Jew without God is nothing in this world?

Then I ain't Jew and I am nothing in the world, heh, amazing how you get pissed off out of nothing, don't you think?
They say nobody is perfect, since I'm nobody to you....I am flattered, I am supposedly perfect, heh.


And Graeme, it is all related, we explain here WHY God answers not his prayers...



-Infernity

[william]

infernity, lets debate this in the thread zoolander suggests we take this debate to. I'll explain myself there.

[Infernity]

http://www.imminst.o...70&t=11550&st=0


New thread for you...


-Infernity

[zoolander]

Your a gem infernity

[Ghostrider]

I stopped reading this thread around page 2 since the conversation went in a direction other than that of the stated topic. I think I see one flaw with the study (correct me if I am wrong). Since the study was double-blinded, all the patients were told that they were being prayed for. Half received prayer from others, half did not. Of those who were actually prayed for, does it not become apparent that the patient's actual intentions and beleifs would have the most significant factor in recovery and could completely over-ride the effects of being prayed for by others? For example, assume I really hate someone. I could pray that the person I hate is immediately killed by some event arranged by God, but would a just God follow through? Even if we assume that the patients want to be cured, unless the actual patient requests treatment, can we assume that a just God would allow others to influence the fate of the patient, regardless of whether the intention of others is good or bad? What if some of those patients deep down wanted to end their lives? Did the study take this variable into account? I don't truly believe that the majority had this feeling, but perhaps for some it is possible.

More importantly, in both groups, there were patients who prayed directly to God for assistance. It seems to me that the requests and intentions from the actual patient would be considered much more highly than requests from others (assume that a just God actually does exist -- I am not arguing that one does, this is just a thought experiment). Think about it, if you were a just God, who would you listen to: the individual or others who have intentions for that individual? The possible flaw that I see with the experiment is that in both groups the patients were praying for assistance. If there is a just God, would one not expect that God would listen to the pleas of the patients and that the pleas for the patient by others would have negligible influence on God's decisions relative to the pleas of the patient? It seems reasonable that the pleas from individuals regarding their own fate would take a much higher weight relative to pleas of others for the individual. In both groups, there were patients who prayed for themselves. If there is a just God, it seems that this variable would have more weight in the overall outcome of the study than strangers praying for strangers.

[Live Forever]

They were not testing for God's reaction. They were also not looking at the problem philosophically or anything else. The one and only thing they were doing was testing for if prayer helped or did not help heart patients. Based on that criteria (and that criteria alone) they showed there to be no significant increase in the likelyhood of recovery for those that were prayed for vs. those that were not.

Now, you can take that however you want. Those that do not believe in God will say that this is proof that God does not exist, and those that believe in God will say that he would not show himself in such a study. (wouldn't be under the control of man) Agnostics like myself will shrug their shoulders and say, who cares, it doesn't prove anything either way.

[Ghostrider]

Live Forever, ok, then I really don't see the point of the study. Even a religious person would have to admit that praying for random strangers is not going to help. I guess Duke must be receiving more funding than it can use.

[Live Forever]

Live Forever, ok, then I really don't see the point of the study.

Neither do I. That is the point. They are wasting money when it could be spent on meaningful studies instead of this religious flim flam.

Even a religious person would have to admit that praying for random strangers is not going to help.

This is not totally correct. I know lots of religious people that pray for "the world in general" or "people that have cancer in general" or "all of the soldiers in Iraq", etc. etc. There are lots of religious people that think praying for random strangers will bring God's (or whoever's) blessings upon those people. This study was (I suppose) meant to be an answer to those people. As far as studies go, you almost have to make it double blind, if you want to get any type of meaningful data out of it.

I guess Duke must be receiving more funding than it can use.

Perhaps. If I remember correctly this study was funded by a private group that funds religious studies.