51 replies to this topic

[Bruce Klein]

Question: Will living forever become boring?

Answer: No. The possibility for adventure and learning are endless in a infinite universe. There will be much to do and see in a world with infinite lifespans.

"There are an infinite number of thinkable thoughts."
- Stephen Pinker

Objections to immortality follow a predictable pattern. Depending on the background of the individual being questioned, answers to the possibility of living forever run the gamut from welcomed to impossible. But one objection seems to top the list - boredom. This objection seems relevant on the face of it, however, when one probes a little deeper, you'll find the answer has more to do with objectioner themselves than any real substantial objection to living forever.

For instance, bright people often say, 'Immortality would be so boring; who would want to work forever?' This objection is most likely rooted in the person discontent with their current position in life or maybe a overbearing boss rather than any real objection to infinite lifespan.

[Cyto]

I agree completely.

[advancedatheist]

I few years ago I drew up a "Millennium-at-a-glance" planner about things I'd like to accomplish over the next 1,000 years. I figure becoming an immortal superman will be doable by 2050, and routine flights to Mars around 2100. The interstellar trip should probably be doable by 2500. Considering all the extrasolar planets astronomers are discovering, we'll have plenty of destinations to choose from by then.

That is, unless, we don't survive the current crisis where fossil fuels become exhausted, terrorists & rogue states acquire terrifying new weapons, new infectious diseases emerge and social movements opposed to Transhumanism attain political power.

Edited by advancedatheist, 19 March 2003 - 02:35 AM.

[Casanova]

One of my favorite Science-Fiction films is "Zardoz".
The film's storyline is perfect for this website.

Here is a scene from the film, of some old fart renegades.

Edited by Casanova, 09 June 2003 - 03:30 AM.

[AgentNyder]

So that's the film's view of immortals?

Actually I think a lot of people today still have that view..

[DJS]

This movie doesn't happen to have Sean Connery in it, does it?

I remember watching this movie a while back with him in it, where there was a group of immortals and if you died accidentally your body was reconstructed by an all powerful computer. Everyone that you saw at the beginning of the movie was young.

However, not all of humanity was immortal. There were "primatives" who were seperated from the immortals. One of these primatives was Sean Connery.

The "catch" with this movie's concept of immortality was that everyone was very bored. They were constantly trying to kill themselves. However, the penalty for an attempted suicide was a reconstituted body one year older than it was before. The people who try to kill themselves over and over again were old invalids hidden from the rest of the population.

The movie ends with Sean and his band of primatives getting through the defenses of the immortal community and killing them all. Giving man back his mortality and bringing him into line with nature.

[Casanova]

Yes, that's the film.

In my opinion the premise of boredom, still holds, and will always hold.
Someone here said that the "boredom" idea is moronic.

The idea of immortality goes all the way back to the beginning of human history. There is a lot of literature on the subject.
The people living before the computer age, were not stupid, and naive, because they didn't have computers. In fact, from what I have read of "computer age" philosopy, the pre "computer age" thinkers were far wiser, and even smarter, than "computer age" thinkers.

The consensus was that not just immortality, but even a mere ten thousand years, would turn a person into a jaded cynic.

The only way to escape that fate, is to use trickery, and to cheat, such as forgeting who you are, so that life is fresh again. So why not just die, and be reborn in another body.
In fact, that is what really happens.

When you die, you come back again, but as someone else. I am not talking karma here, but just the fact, that consciousness precedes matter, so it is eternally existent.
In fact, there is no total death, just a rebirth of your "Awareness" into another bocy. There is death for the ego, which is scary, but not death of Awareness.

The old thinkers on immortality were correct. You will get bored, and worse, your appetites will become increasing sado/mascochistc, and decadent.
If you are immortal, then why not try all kinds of freakish violent activity, including violent death scenarios, just for fun.

That is why I posted my Marguis de Sade post. The boredom factor will call for ever stronger doses of action; ending in the kind of freakishness seen in films like Satyricon", or "Salo".

How's that for a response Henry the K.

[Lazarus Long]

Boredom is just a sign you are dying, not a reason to die. Why are you bored?

I have never been bored except as a youth when being forced to learn from bad teachers. Eventually as a survivor and left to my own device devices I find nothing I do not desire to learn; thus enjoy. Once I realized the responsibility for boredom was my own it never happened to me again.

I find joy in all learning and I do not expect to be entertained. I have never encountered a challenge again so great that denial of the learning response produced boredom in me. Impatience with fools, yes; but a state of boredom? Never.

[Casanova]

Come on Lazarus?
Haven't you waited in a dentist's clinic, or waited for a damn bus without reading material, or driven somewhere when your radio didn't work, etc.

With some exceptions, most human beings will be bored, in the first couple of hundred years.
I wouldn't become bored for a long time, under certain conditions.
Every time humanity builds, or tries, some new contraption, there are endless glitches, and mistakes.
Immortality sounds good in theory, but once extended life becomes a reality, most humans, will muck it up, as usual.
How many big brains do you run into on a daily basis, on the streets, etc., or human beings with great compassion?

The majority of the public will treat extended life, the way they have treated television, movies, and music, by turning it into a parade of sleazoid, mediocrity.
Look at actions movies. Each new action film has to top the previous film, with intensity, because the audience becomes numb, and bored, with the previous level of intensity.

What we will see, once "extended life" is everywhere are persons uping the anti-, continously, for cheap thrills, and kicks; for ever more freakish forms of amusement.
Boredom creates anger, resentment, and hostility. Read Colin Wilson's bookss. Wilson has made a life study of the "boredom factor."

Wilson said somewhere that he would like to live for 300 years, but you have to remember that Wilson's idea of immortality, or extended life, pertains to individuals who have worked their asses off, to become whole, integrated, wise, and mature, human beings.
Wilson is not interested in giving immortality to just any lazy bozo.

Maybe, you, and I, wouldn't be bored, but the general public would become bored. That is the scary part.
The majority of human beings have always been "fence-sitters." I don't like being the type of person who hates humanity, in general, but I find it read difficult much of the time, not to be a humanity-hater.
I have to work like heck, to remind myself that humanity has improved, and that we are not all, or rather most of us, what Nietzsche called, "jumped- up apes".

[Lazarus Long]

When sitting in a dentist's chair I imagine performing the surgery upon myself and how difficult it would be but I do try to study the dentist's technique for handling materials, tools. and my mouth; and then assess whether I should from moment to moment allow him/her to continue. Perhaps you are referring to waiting beforehand?

I read and/or converse with the hygienist as I won't long have the ability while someone has their hands in my mouth.

I try to learn from every situation I attend. I have never stepped in the same stream twice.

I am alone much of the time involved in study, writing, home and child care, as well as periodic bouts of fabrication. I am surrounded by access to the greatest works of all time and a no where near enough time on a practical daily basis to do all I can imagine. Bored? Why?

You argue I should be bored because everybody else is? How droll. )

You argue I can't be telling the truth because perhaps you from time to time tire of fools?

I do too but that is not boredom, if they threaten my survival, I will attend to them. I prefer encouraging them to recognize the merits of collective survival but if attacked I will defend myself and those I love. I respect survival, first as a healer and second as a defender, but most as a creative person in love with poetry, song, dance and life. I must even accept suffering and this has been much harder than your concept of boredom to endure because the agony that accompanies it is all too real.

Tragedy is about life, but it is tragic because it is NOT necessary. Otherwise like trying to mandate generosity you fall into a paradox of definition.

[DJS]

In my opinion the premise of boredom, still holds, and will always hold.
Someone here said that the "boredom" idea is moronic.

Frankly, I think I'd be more bored existing within the classic concept of heaven than I would living in the physical world forever. Playing the harp all day, singing songs of praise with the angels...*yawn* I know you are not necessarily even a christian, but I'm trying to point out that this is a false dichotomy. If you get bored (so bored that you can't stand your existence) then kill yourself. The Immortality Institute is against involuntary death. Suicide is a personal choice and no one here is suggesting that people be forced to live.

Further, it is unprovable whether a human would get "bored" after living 10,000 years. Why debate something that is unprovable? IMO, there will always be things to do and people to see. For every solution there are new problems. That is the nature of living. I can never imagine myself being bored, or running out of things to do. I think people who can imagine such a scenario suffer from limited capacities or fear of limited capacities.

The only way to escape that fate, is to use trickery, and to cheat, such as forgeting who you are, so that life is fresh again. So why not just die, and be reborn in another body.
In fact, that is what really happens.

When you die, you come back again, but as someone else. I am not talking karma here, but just the fact, that consciousness precedes matter, so it is eternally existent.
In fact, there is no total death, just a rebirth of your "Awareness" into another bocy. There is death for the ego, which is scary, but not death of Awareness.

And your daily dose of subjective opinion was brought to you by Casanova...

The old thinkers on immortality were correct. You will get bored, and worse, your appetites will become increasing sado/mascochistc, and decadent.
If you are immortal, then why not try all kinds of freakish violent activity, including violent death scenarios, just for fun.

That is why I posted my Marguis de Sade post. The boredom factor will call for ever stronger doses of action; ending in the kind of freakishness seen in films like Satyricon", or "Salo".

More worthless conjecture. You're talking out your ass. Let me counter you with your kind of worthless dialog -- You will always be captivated, and better yet, your appetites will become increasingly productive and meaningful.

How's that for a response Henry the K.

It's a response.

[Casanova]

More worthless conjecture. You're talking out your ass. Let me counter you with your kind of worthless dialog

Why are you being so hostile; could it be that you have doubts?

Lazarus

You argue I should be bored because everybody else is? How droll.

What are you talking about?

This is exactly why I don't answer right away; personal attacks, snotty wisecracks, dodging the issues, accusing me of implying and saying things, that I did not say, or imply.

Most of you dodge the issues, and resort to cheap personal attacks.

There are very few replies, that stick to the issues, and criticizes the issues themselves.

[DJS]

The reason I am hostile is because you think you represent an alternative, but you don't. You represent my death. You are a false prophet.

When you die, you come back again, but as someone else. I am not talking karma here, but just the fact, that consciousness precedes matter, so it is eternally existent.
In fact, there is no total death, just a rebirth of your "Awareness" into another bocy. There is death for the ego, which is scary, but not death of Awareness.

There is no proof of this. Why should I risk my existence on your subjective opinion about the nature of awareness? If I was willing to do this I would go back to Christianity. I want to be an active participant in my continuation, not a passive soul who hopes fate will treat them justly. Also, why does consciousness precede matter? Why not the other way around? This statement presupposes a metaphysical realm.

Further, you are stating facts without presenting your thought process. You are lecturing me. The presentation doesn't have to be elaborate, just structured enough so I can see where you're conclusions came from. I need to see your thought process, otherwise it is worthless conjecture.

Example:

You will get bored, and worse, your appetites will become increasing sado/masochistic, and decadent.
If you are immortal, then why not try all kinds of freakish violent activity, including violent death scenarios, just for fun

Why would immortality=boredom? (Because "the elders" say so?) That is the assumption you base your whole statement on. Now within the above quote, why would boredom=decadence? Why couldn't boredom=increased creativity, or increased desire to find productive activities?

And what is wrong with violent death scenarios? If that was my desire as an immortal, then so be it. As long as I am not harming anyone else in the process, what right do you have to dictate my morality?

It is great that you have read books (like Colin Wilson or your beloved Wilber), but don't just say this is my opinion and its backed up by Wilson. Say this is my opinion and then offer direct quotation from the book your are referring to which shows the author's line of reasoning.

You created a whole thread for a fictional movie which obviously has a negative take on the concept of physical immortality. This is called stacking the deck and it is a direct attack on the belief that physical immortality is a positive thing. By making threads like this you are trying to get a reaction. And then you play all innocent. "Hey, why are you guys picking on me." Life sucks, get a helmet. You're ten times more vicious than Ill ever be.

[advancedatheist]

I don't understand what lesson we're supposed to derive from arbitrary fictional portrayals of immortals. After all, we don't have to depend on George Orwell's novels to see the dangers of totalitarianism. We have real historical examples to study.

[Lazarus Long]

What are you talking about?

This is exactly why I don't answer right away; personal attacks, snotty wisecracks, dodging the issues, accusing me of implying and saying things, that I did not say, or imply.

Most of you dodge the issues, and resort to cheap personal attacks.

That is not a personal attack, your argument is droll (not you) and it is a joke so lighten up. You are being hypersensitive and over reactionary. I have not once made a personal attack against you Casanova and this is no exception. In addition it is you that has repeatedly ignored my attempts at communication with you, not the other way around. Look up droll, the comment is a double entendre.

Droll means to be comic or facetious, and I do find the argument that I must get bored amusing. It is simply false, but does contain a certain slapstick charm. In fact the idea that I "should be bored," I find amusing, hence NOT boring.

I am not ridiculing you Casanova, quite the contrary I fervently don't agree with you and was addressing what I feel is a serious flaw in your basic premise. I disagree with numerous premises that you have provided but as you generally don't respond to me directly I was delighted that this time you did.

The point is that boredom is not a threat, it is not even necessary now and poses no contradiction to attaining immortality. It is reflective of an individual's ability to adapt and learn that is all. It also represents a sociocultural flaw in our species that comes from the healthy desire to be entertained perverted into a habit that degenerates into dependency.

It seems to me the argument you are making reminds me of a very old Star Trek (the first series) where the Greek Gods (the immortals) have been hiding out on a planet becoming ever more decadent as they are bored and seek more corrupt forms of entertainment. The argument assumes that there is nothing to learn after awhile and that this inevitably leads to decadence. This assumes a very finite idea of what can be learned.

[Lazarus Long]

I have merged the arguments Casanova made about immortals and boredom to this thread so as to put the issue where it belongs.

[Bruce Klein]

Thank you Laz,

This appraoch should prove helpful and I will look to do this with other threads.

[steve]

In my experience, people get bored when they're neither focused on the environment that they are currently in, nor have the confidence to move into an environment where there is new knowledge to be aquired and skills developed. All they need is a little motivation and support, in my opinion.

Even if I lived forever, I still wouldn't have enough time in my week, because ever skill that I am developing has to be not only maintained but with persistence and determination will be continually improved.

Anything can been improved at any time - it's just a matter of when

Unfortunately, my quote can also have the reverse effect. [B)]

[chubtoad]

In the future couldn't boredom be cured my intentionally (using medical techniques to change your brain structure) forgetting some things that you know. I have often had the displeasure of watching a movie only to remember I have already seen it about half way through. I certainly would not have objected to not remembering until after the movie was over. Also, couldn't you create your own Matrix like realities and make yourself completely oblivious to the real world?

[Mind]

One thing that has not been brought up so far is that fact that the world is changing, and we humans will also be changing in the future.

There is a chance I might get bored with life if I had to be the same person in the same job with the same family and friends on the same planet for a few thousand years.

However, I don't think this will happen. Science will open up all kinds of new experiences for humans (like space travel or virtual worlds). We will likely also modify our brains and senses and this will be new and exciting in my opinion.

There are some people who may not want to change or travel to space. They may become bored and kill themselves. If that is their choice...I will not stop them. I hope they will not stop me either.

[Infernity]

Ah, how can someone get bored?! I mean people get to that situation only if they believe it is possible, they are simply trying to prove it so they shall succeed. If they decide they won't be bored ever and won't ever get tired of life- they won't. What's wrong with that?
No one but you can decide how's your life will look like- boring or fascinating.

Yours
~Infernity

[Kalepha]

infernity No one but you can decide how's your life will look like- boring or fascinating.

... or ridiculous...

[Infernity]

Ahm Nate... Are you trying to say that what I just said was ridiculous, or was it merely an innocent addition?

Yours
~Infernity

[Kalepha]

It is an addition, of course.

[Kalepha]

You should know better.

[Infernity]

Nate,
Then I guess you are agreeing with me, I am agreeing with your addition

Yours truthfully
~Infernity

Edited by infernity, 11 March 2005 - 03:15 PM.

[susmariosep]

To be brief, easy, and quick.


First, I wish that the powers here will make it possible to get a listing of all the threads here in this forum with a few mouse maneuvers or keyboard pushes.

I just came to this thread only now.

Here is my take of this thread, "Boredom -- tired of life extension?"

I am with all the guys who are for life extension and being beyond seeing any boredom with life.

That said, here are some comments about boredom as a reason for not working to stay alive indefinitely and even to restore life if and when and it is ended.

There is the boredom that is not chosen boredom, like waiting to see the doctor and having nothing to interest you in the circumstances. Cure for this kind of boredom is to see to it you always keep yourself equipped with things and ideas to keep yourself absorbed and intrigued, wherever you be.

But there is that kind of unchosen boredom where you can really get bored whatever you have taken for measures to not get bored or to get always absorbed and intrigued. For example you get trapped beyond rescue in a collapsed building waiting for death which you cannot do to yourself. That is hell, and I have no answer nor solution to that kind of boredom.

So, make sure that you never get into that kind of a hell without some cyanide lodged in your dental work for you to break open and effect self-departure. Or some such effective solution to your hellish boredom.

About the reasons adduced by Casanova for not being interested in life extension, and one reason is because of boredom:

1. I think he is at least some kind of a closet Buddhist who revels in the prospects of Nirvana.

2. But he is also after return of consciousness after death, so that every conscious person is a 'rebirthed' of a past conscious person or entity; even though according to him, or he should admit, that no presently living conscious person can connect himself to or with a past conscious identity from which he has been 'rebirthed' into.

3. Owing to the second part of #2 comment above, I think he is basically into the mechanism of what the Spaniards call consuelo de bobo, namely, consolation of the dunce.

4. And he is waiting for the biggest and the last consuelo de bobo when he gets to Nirvana, from where according to barebone Buddhism he won't be 'rebirthed' any further; he will just go into extinction.

5. But Casanova is not worried about the extinction of Nirvana: because he has been indoctrinated and conditioned without his knowing it, to feel as though Nirvana for all its extinction essence is like the heaven of the Christians and the paradise of the Muslims.

How's that for a BEQ (brief, easy, and quick) treatment of the discussion so far in this tread, "Boredom -- tired of life extension?"


As for me and my house we will opt for life extension and we will never be bored with unending duration of life.

Susma

[trekker]

I am somewhat heretical by nature, it is merely a mechanism for true learning to me. I was reading this forum, and I couldn't help but to wonder. If you believe in the existance of an all powerful being, that has eternal life, and created all things, why would he create us? I will speculate boredom.

Unfortunately, it follows a certain logic, that in creating us, he has created an evil of sorts. What fun is perfection? At some point in an eternal existance, it seems logical to surmise figuring out all there is to know, even being able to reasonably predict the future to some extent.

This is a post about boredom, not whether I would choose to live forever. Had I been given a choice to live forever, I found the older I get, the less I tend toward eternity. Life is a fun journey, I'm glad to be enjoying it. If we were given the choice, we would have to each decide for ourselves.

[boundlesslife]

There are some people who may not want to change or travel to space. They may become bored and kill themselves. If that is their choice...I will not stop them. I hope they will not stop me either.

They may be in pursuit of an imaginary afterlife in choosing to die, seeking a solution to their boredom, even after the idea of an "afterlife" is no longer necessary as an emotional palliative (to escape the effects of aging and withering away). But then, won't this simply be a matter of "natural selection"? Those who are not so easily bored or deceived by their imaginations will survive. Would we not say, also, that this would distinguish them as being "more fit to survive"?

boundlesslife

[alexjohnc3]

Boundlesslife, that is a perfectly good point, but wouldn't you rather see them live? We could easily put them somewhere were'd they'd be safe from themselves until they realized that by doing this they were destroying their only chance at learning and becoming greater. Without this they wouldn't exist. It would be a tragedy like so many millions already...