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What's the best form of vitamin C for long-term systemic health?

immune mood vitamin c ascorbic acid

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#1 brosci

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 06:37 AM


I was looking around for a decent vitamin C and came across cheap ascorbic acid, and cheap buffered C (calcium ascorbate, magnesium ascorbate, etc.)  In reading about the quality of the manufacturing process, I found a brand Quali-C that seemed to be highly regarded, which then lead to finding bulk Sodium Ascorbate made with Quali-C.

 

Doing a bit more poking around, I found one with 500mg of bioflavanoids : 500mg of ascorbic acid, and others with varying doses of flavanoids.  Another product came with D-Ribose.  I found one from nutrigold with all sorts of berries in it, or others that claimed to provide a full dose of C from exotic fruits like Camu Camu or Acerola cherries.

 

I'm thinking that this is something I'll take in the morning, fasted, maybe alongside others like Resveratrol, Nicotinamide Riboside, and my B-Complex.

 

What's the best form / brand of vitamin C for long-term systemic health?



#2 Dorian Grey

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 07:21 AM

I'm all for quality where it counts.  For instance, I take PhosChol, a highly refined lecithin with a high DLPC fraction content that costs nearly a buck a cap.  

 

When it comes to Vitamin-C, I'm much more pragmatic.  A cheap drugstore brand keeps my gums from bleeding when I brush my teeth, which indicates to me it works.  A lot of folks get excited about co-factors and flavanoids, but if cheap/synthetic Vitamin-C from China will keep me from getting sub-clinical scurvy, then it seems to fulfill its purpose. 

 

I'd appreciate any studies indicating the co-factors/flavanoids actually provide a substantial beneficial effect.  I simply don't believe a basic-C supp will not prevent a deficiency without the other "magic" co-factors & flav's.   

 

I'm all for empty stomach dosing...  Vitamin-C greatly enhances absorption of dietary iron if taken with meals, which I don't want.  Males tend to accumulate iron, & I actually bleed some off every few months down at the blood bank.  

 

I spend my supplement money where it counts, like Life Extension's Super Bio-Curcumin, & save money on the basic B-Complex & C.  


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#3 KBAnthis

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 10:54 AM

I was going to try Quali-C from Doctor's Best which is from Scotland, until I found Dual Health Supplements. They are an adult themed website so fair warning now. The ascorbic acid powder they carry is manufactured in North Carolina, and the MSM they carry is OptiMSM. I mix this Viamin C powder with organic orange peel powder and it works fine with me. It is really high quality, noticably higher quality than chinese vitamin c powder I have had in the past. You can get their products on Amazon and E-Bay or from them directly, but be warned the website they run is adult themed and not for childrens eyes. 


Edited by KBAnthis, 15 August 2018 - 11:02 AM.

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#4 pamojja

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 12:19 PM

I spend my supplement money where it counts, .., & save money on the .. C.  

 

Agree. Had many benefits with high dose l-ascorbic acid powder (24 g/d for 10 years). And even such a high dose it's the most easiest available (in meny markets around here) and affordable (1.95 per 100g). With any other product it would easily get the most expensive for me.

 

There is for example this one absorption study which showed no difference in serum levels between liposomal vitamin C and ordinary powder:

 

 

Pharmacokinetics of oral vitamin C

STEPHEN HICKEY, HILARY J. ROBERTS, & NICHOLAS J. MILLER

"Figure 1 shows the response of the female subject to single 5 g doses of liposomal and
standard formulation vitamin C; both produced similar response curves. These results are
comparable in form and magnitude to those expected for oral vitamin C in previously
depleted subjects. However, peak values exceeded 220 mM L which has been reported as
the maximum value attainable with repeated oral doses of 3 g six times daily [8]. The
subjects were experienced users of high-dose vitamin C and neither suffered any
gastrointestinal effects at this dose level.5 "

post-12057-0-75356200-1388072915_thumb.p

Increasing the dose of liposomal vitamin C to 20g gave a broader response, with
a delayed maximum, as shown in Figure 2. In this graph, the 20g liposomal dose is
compared with a 5g standard dose (male subject). With a 20g intake, the peak plasma
level was delayed and the response was broader, indicating a greater absorption of
vitamin C. The 5g data set shows a marked outlier (peak): this is attributed to the fact
that one of the (5g) blood samples was difficult to extract, with inflammation at the
puncture site, providing only a small sample. The subject experienced no bowel
tolerance effects at either of these intakes.

post-12057-0-19123300-1388072942_thumb.p

Figure 3 shows plasma levels following a 36g dose of liposomal vitamin C, for
both subjects. This resulted in peak plasma levels, in the region of 400 µM/L. A 95%
interfractile range (34-114), which contains 95% of the distribution with a mean of 74
corresponds to a calculated standard deviation of 17.4. We note that, under these
conditions, an outlier measurement of 400 µM/L would correspond to a deviation of
10.3 σ with a theoretical p value of 1.6x10 -13 (i.e. P<0.0000000000001). With this high
dose, both subjects exceeded their bowel tolerance, leading to diarrhoea. This
intolerance presumably arose from the high intake of phospholipid, without food
buffering, in fasting individuals. However, our observations using hourly doses suggest
that daily intakes of this magnitude are tolerable without bowel effects, as long as the
dose is spread throughout the day.

post-12057-0-42746100-1388072967_thumb.p

So with a single 5 g dose equal serum levels of 220 µM/L are possible. And by extrapolation from the 20g and 36g single liposomal doses 400 µM/L would be possible (usually prevented by bowel tolerance).

 

Then this study (now behind a paywall), found with 20g throughout the day even above 500 µM/L are reached:

 

 

Glycohaemoglobin and ascorbic acid

 
Copplestone et al1 (http://www.nzma.org....al/115-1157/25/) identified misleading glycohaemoglobin (GHb) results due to a haemoglobin variant (Hb D Punjab) and listed a number of other possible causes for such false results (ie, haemolytic anaemia, uraemia, lead poisoning, alcoholism, high-dose salicylates and hereditary persistence of foetal haemoglobin).
 
We have observed a significant "false" lowering of GHb in animals and humans supplementing ascorbic acid (AA) at multigram levels. Mice receiving ~7.5 mg/d (equivalent to > 10 g/day in a 70 kg human) exhibited no decrease in plasma glucose, but a 23% reduction in GHb.2 In humans, supplementation of AA for several months did not lower fasting plasma glucose.3,4 We studied 139 consecutive consenting non-diabetic patients in an oncology clinic. The patients had been encouraged as part of their treatment to supplement AA. Self-reported daily intake varied from 0 to 20 g/day. The plasma AA levels ranged from 11.4 to 517 µmol/L and correlated well with the reported intake. Regression analysis of their GHb and plasma AA values showed a statistically significant inverse association (eg, each 30 µmol/L increase in plasma AA concentration resulted in a decrease of 0.1 in GHb).
 
A 1 g oral dose of AA can raise plasma AA to 130 µmol/L within an hour and such doses at intervals of about two hours throughout the day can maintain ~230 µmol AA/L.5 Similar levels could also be achieved by use of sustained-release AA tablets. This AA concentration would induce an approximate 0.7 depression in GHb. The GHb assay used in our study, affinity chromatography, is not affected by the presence of AA.3 Thus, unlike the case with Hb D Punjab, our results were not caused by analytical method artifact. More likely, the decreased GHb associated with AA supplementation appears related to an in vivo inhibition of glycation by the elevated plasma AA levels, and not a decrease in average plasma glucose.3 If this is true, the effect has implications not only for interpretation of GHb but also for human ageing, in which glycation of proteins plays a prominent role in age-related degenerative changes.
 
A misleading GHb lowering of the magnitude we observed can be clinically significant. Current recommendations for diabetics suggest that GHb be maintained at 7, a level that is associated with acceptable control and decreased risk of complications; when GHb exceeds 8, re-evaluation of treatment is necessary.6 Moreover, relatively small increases in average blood sugar (ie, GHb) can accompany adverse reproductive effects. A difference in mean maternal GHb of 0.8 was found for women giving birth to infants without or with congenital malformations.7 In either of these circumstances, an underestimation of GHb could obscure the need for more aggressive intervention.
 
Vitamin usage is common in New Zealand and after multivitamins, AA is the most often consumed supplement.8 Moreover, diabetics are encouraged to supplement antioxidants, including AA. Thus, it seems prudent for primary care health providers to inquire regarding the AA intake of patients, especially diabetics, when using GHb for diagnosis or treatment monitoring.
 
Cheryl A Krone
Senior Research Scientist
John TA Ely
Director
Applied Research Institute
PO Box 1925
Palmerston North

 

Emphasis by me. So for the case of pharmcological/orthomolecular application, nothing is as effective as frequent very high doses of plain ascorbic acid powder. Which with any 'enhanced' product would be not affordable to me at such doses.


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#5 brosci

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 04:37 PM

I'm all for quality where it counts.  For instance, I take PhosChol, a highly refined lecithin with a high DLPC fraction content that costs nearly a buck a cap.  

 

When it comes to Vitamin-C, I'm much more pragmatic.  A cheap drugstore brand keeps my gums from bleeding when I brush my teeth, which indicates to me it works.  A lot of folks get excited about co-factors and flavanoids, but if cheap/synthetic Vitamin-C from China will keep me from getting sub-clinical scurvy, then it seems to fulfill its purpose. 

 

I'd appreciate any studies indicating the co-factors/flavanoids actually provide a substantial beneficial effect.  I simply don't believe a basic-C supp will not prevent a deficiency without the other "magic" co-factors & flav's.   

 

I'm all for empty stomach dosing...  Vitamin-C greatly enhances absorption of dietary iron if taken with meals, which I don't want.  Males tend to accumulate iron, & I actually bleed some off every few months down at the blood bank.  

 

I spend my supplement money where it counts, like Life Extension's Super Bio-Curcumin, & save money on the basic B-Complex & C.  

 

I did find some interesting info on the flavanoids :

 

Hesperidin reverses cognitive and depressive disturbances induced by olfactory bulbectomy in mice by modulating hippocampal neurotrophins and cytokine levels and acetylcholinesterase activity: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/27460180

Hesperidin and Silibinin Ameliorate Aluminum-Induced Neurotoxicity: Modulation of Antioxidants and Inflammatory Cytokines Level in Mice Hippocampus: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/26018497

Hesperidin ameliorates cognitive dysfunction, oxidative stress and apoptosis against aluminium chloride induced rat model of Alzheimer's disease: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/26878879

Flavonoid Hesperidin Induces Synapse Formation and Improves Memory Performance: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/28659786

Hesperidin, a citrus flavonoid, protects against l-methionine-induced hyperhomocysteinemia: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/27677544

Autophagic activation may be involved in the mechanism of hesperidin's therapeutic effects on cognitive impairment: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/25748295

Chronic consumption of flavanone-rich orange juice is associated with cognitive benefits: an 8-wk, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial in healthy older adults: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/25733635

Hesperidin alleviates cognitive impairment, mitochondrial dysfunction and oxidative stress in a mouse model of Alzheimer's disease: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/25135708

Curcumin and hesperidin improve cognition by suppressing mitochondrial dysfunction and apoptosis induced by D-galactose in rat brain: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/25217884

Effect of hesperidin on neurobehavioral, neuroinflammation, oxidative stress and lipid alteration in intracerebroventricular streptozotocin induced cognitive impairment in mice: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/25434716

Hesperidin reverses perivascular adipose-mediated aortic stiffness with aging: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/28780050

Naringin and Rutin Alleviates Episodic Memory Deficits in Two Differentially Challenged Object Recognition Tasks: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/27041861

Naringin Improves Neuronal Insulin Signaling, Brain Mitochondrial Function, and Cognitive Function in High-Fat Diet-Induced Obese Mice: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/25939427


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#6 Dorian Grey

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 05:21 PM

Good detective work brosci.  I'm sure Hesperidin and Naringin don't hurt (provided dosing isn't excessive) and most likely are beneficial.  

 

I've seen some opine in the past that cheap/synthetic vitamin-C from China "will not work properly without co-factors". 

 

I'll buy an argument the co-factors may be helpful, but simply don't believe they are required for C to work properly.  



#7 Dorian Grey

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 05:28 PM

I recall now I once tried a "Vitamin-C Complex", & didn't like it.  Something about the smell or taste if I remember correctly.  Couldn't even finish the bottle.  I'm interested to hear your experience when you try them.  


Edited by Dorian Grey, 15 August 2018 - 05:33 PM.


#8 brosci

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 05:57 PM

Good detective work brosci.  I'm sure Hesperidin and Naringin don't hurt (provided dosing isn't excessive) and most likely are beneficial.  

 

I've seen some opine in the past that cheap/synthetic vitamin-C from China "will not work properly without co-factors". 

 

I'll buy an argument the co-factors may be helpful, but simply don't believe they are required for C to work properly.  

 

Indeed, I do wonder about the combo / dose.  I usually take fish oil and curcumin with dinner, which can thin the blood.  And, then there's resveratrol in my morning regimen (I'm still debating between brands and dose -- if I go with Longevinex, there's Quercetin / EGCG / Chlorogenic acid in the mix, if I go with Reserveage, there's pterostilbene + GSE in the mix, Biotivia's RSV comes with Polydatin, and the LEF RSV tacks on Quercetin with Fisetin), which I suppose can also thin the blood.  And damned if Hesperidin / flavanoids don't also thin the blood... I suppose at some point, all of these polyphenols end up increasing some risk factor rather than decreasing them.  I believe they often act through pro-oxidative hormesis and beyond some threshold, glutathione might even take a hit or liver / kidney health could take this more as an assault than an enhancement.

 

Perhaps Thorne's 500mg Ascorbic Acid with 75mg Bioflavonoids might be more appropriate than going with the 500mg : 500mg version.  I was on the lookout for a jar of bulk sodium ascorbate made with Quali-C + bioflavonoids, didin't see one -- perhaps I'm getting too picky.


Edited by brosci, 15 August 2018 - 06:11 PM.


#9 John250

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 07:28 PM

I like to use a variety. This is my stack:

Pure Encapsulations EsterC&Bioflavonoids:
VitaminC from(619mg calcium ascorbate blend)
Calcium from(68mg calcium ascorbate blend)
Threonic Acid from(7mg calcium ascorbate blend)
Quercetin
Rutin


Organic India Amalaki:
1g Organic Amala fruit(Emblica officinalis)


Naturelo:
500mg VitC from natural L-ascorbate& organic Acerola cherry)
45mg Citrus Bioflavonoids from(organic orange&lemon)

And Swanson’s Hesperidin

And MacroLife Miracle Reds Superfood

Edited by John250, 15 August 2018 - 07:32 PM.

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#10 pamojja

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Posted 16 August 2018 - 12:29 PM

So for the case of pharmcological/orthomolecular application, nothing is as effective as frequent very high doses of plain ascorbic acid powder. Which with any 'enhanced' product would be not affordable to me at such doses.

 

Wanted to add, it would even be disadvisable to get such high doses of vitamin C in capsules or pills. Since it easily could give an overdose of not so non-toxic binders and fillers. All other maybe synergistics can be added at their effective dose individually. Which is what I do too.
 

And damned if Hesperidin / flavanoids don't also thin the blood... I suppose at some point, all of these polyphenols end up increasing some risk factor rather than decreasing them.

 

I made the experience that 2 g/d of supplemented flavonoids, additional to about 2 g/d of other polyphenols, does decrease blood coagulation a little bid. But with no other than a baby-aspirin added, and the following bowel-movement comes mixed with blood.


Edited by pamojja, 16 August 2018 - 12:30 PM.


#11 brosci

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Posted 16 August 2018 - 06:44 PM

Wanted to add, it would even be disadvisable to get such high doses of vitamin C in capsules or pills. Since it easily could give an overdose of not so non-toxic binders and fillers. All other maybe synergistics can be added at their effective dose individually. Which is what I do too.
 

 

I made the experience that 2 g/d of supplemented flavonoids, additional to about 2 g/d of other polyphenols, does decrease blood coagulation a little bid. But with no other than a baby-aspirin added, and the following bowel-movement comes mixed with blood.

 

When using higher doses of vitamin C, is one form better than the other with regard to kidney stone risk?  It seems like I've read the acidity of ascorbic acid is itself protective against this.

 

I was thinking about switching my coffee out for Four Sigmatic Lion's Mane (with chaga)... then read "chaga stops platelet aggregation and blood clots from forming."  I wonder at what point blood thinning moves from a prophylactic against stroke to a risk factor.



#12 pamojja

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Posted 16 August 2018 - 07:08 PM

When using higher doses of vitamin C, is one form better than the other with regard to kidney stone risk?  It seems like I've read the acidity of ascorbic acid is itself protective against this.

 

I was thinking about switching my coffee out for Four Sigmatic Lion's Mane (with chaga)... then read "chaga stops platelet aggregation and blood clots from forming."  I wonder at what point blood thinning moves from a prophylactic against stroke to a risk factor.

 

Certainly at that point where a single baby aspirin causes bleeding in your bowel movement. Before that, clothing can be tested for in blood, and in which direction it is moving.

 

 

Robert F. Cathcart II, M.D. writes on “Why Don’t Massive Doses of Ascorbate Produce Kidney Stones?”

 

“Years ago when Linus Pauling wrote his book "Vitamin C and the Common Cold", the critics immediately labeled the taking of large doses of vitamin C dangerous because it would produce calcium oxalate kidney stones. This practice of telling people that vitamin C caused kidney stones continues today by the critics of vitamin C despite the lack of clinical evidence of kidney stones in people taking vitamin C.

 

“It was hypothesized that since a significant percentage of ascorbate was metabolized into and excreted as oxalic acid that this oxalic acid should combine with calcium in the urine and deposit as calcium oxalate kidney stones. It is true that those of us who take large doses of ascorbate have elevated oxalic acid in our urine but no kidney stones. With the millions of people in the world taking vitamin C, if vitamin C caused kidney stones there would have been a massive epidemic of kidney stones noticed by this time. There has been none.

 

“I started using vitamin C in massive doses in-patients in 1969. By the time I read that ascorbate should cause kidney stones, I had clinical evidence that it did not cause kidney stones, so I continued prescribing massive doses to patients. To this day (2006) I estimate that I have put 25,000 patients on massive doses of vitamin C and none have developed kidney stones. Two patients who had dropped their doses to 500 mg a day developed calcium oxalate kidney stones. I raised their doses back up to the more massive doses and added magnesium and B6 to their program and no more kidney stones. I think that the low doses had no effect and they, by coincidence, developed the kidney stones because they were not taking enough vitamin C.”

I really don't believe the unproven hypothesis that vitamin would cause kidney stones. But rather this clinical experience with 25.000 patients, which experienced none. Except those 2 on insufficient doses by coincidence.


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#13 Heisok

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Posted 17 August 2018 - 02:19 AM

I have been following this thread closely. I take multiple forms mixed throughout the day. Ascorbic acid. Ascorbic acid mixed with Sodium Bicarbonate, and Ascorbic Acid mixed with pure Milk of Magnesia. This way I get Sodium Ascorbate, Magnesium Ascorbate and Ascorbic acid. I do think that although Liposomal Vitamin C is as you say Pamojja for the study you shared; I will say that acutely, I get an quick energy boost from commercial products and homemade. It might be the lecithin though. For some reason, I have a high tolerance for vitamin C with regular 20 plus to over 30 gram days, I do not reach tolerance. I do spread the doses out over many intakes.

 

The reason that I added my 2 cents worth is that Chaga makes me bleed as bad or worse than adding a single baby aspirin which also acts on me through visible bleeding.


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#14 pamojja

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Posted 17 August 2018 - 10:54 AM

I take multiple forms mixed throughout the day. Ascorbic acid. Ascorbic acid mixed with Sodium Bicarbonate, and Ascorbic Acid mixed with pure Milk of Magnesia. This way I get Sodium Ascorbate, Magnesium Ascorbate and Ascorbic acid. I do think that although Liposomal Vitamin C is as you say Pamojja for the study you shared; I will say that acutely, I get an quick energy boost from commercial products and homemade. It might be the lecithin though. For some reason, I have a high tolerance for vitamin C with regular 20 plus to over 30 gram days, I do not reach tolerance. I do spread the doses out over many intakes.

 

The reason that I added my 2 cents worth is that Chaga makes me bleed as bad or worse than adding a single baby aspirin which also acts on me through visible bleeding.

 

Have been taking different forms of vitamin C for years. To economize I just add some sodium or potassium bicarbonate too now.

 

Regrettably, this one absorption study says nothing about the alleged benefits of liposomal Vitamin C preferentially entering the cell. So in no way does it deny that there are additional benefits. It's just when I tried I didn't felt any. Except, in that it raised bowel-tolerance even further

 

Bowel tolerance can be astronomical high in some individuals. In my case it showed at 50 g/d with oral ascorbic acid. Thanks for your observation with Chaga, which I never tried.
 


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#15 granmasutensil

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 12:17 PM

I would say the type of vitamin C used in Vitality C is the best form known to date better than liposomal. It has delivery system with four uptake pathways for very high absorption even at mega doses, allows for megadosing 4+ grams easily with very minimal bowel upset even at 16+ grams, stays in the bloodstream around 10 hours so you only have to dose morning and night basic ascorbic acid is 3-4 hours. From what I've gathered for best benefits of vitamin C as in when it starts acting as a oxidant the magic number is 4 grams minimum a dose. The product makes it easy to do that as a powder. Dissolves very easy and virtually no taste just slightly sweet. Price is around is around 30 USD for 200 grams. Price used to be very high around double that so I only used to stock it for when I wanted to dose high like when I felt I was getting sick instead of daily use. But now at that price point it's more practical for daily use imo. But it being a powder you can dose however much you want though dosing low you may as well just stick to basic ascorbic acid honestly. Comes down to your budget and what you want to focus on. Now has a pretty nice one with vit C metabolites and other stuff called alpha sorb C that is on the cheap end as another option.


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#16 pamojja

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 01:42 PM

I would say the type of vitamin C used in Vitality C is the best form known to date better than liposomal. It has delivery system with four uptake pathways for very high absorption even at mega doses, allows for megadosing 4+ grams easily with very minimal bowel upset even at 16+ grams, stays in the bloodstream around 10 hours so you only have to dose morning and night basic ascorbic acid is 3-4 hours.

 

This is just a really gross marketing hype. There isn't even one dose escalating study which shows it would in any way be better absorbed or longer than regular vitamin C powders. Not to talk about comparing it to liposomal, which itself still is in need of evidence for higher intercellular levels (or if you're aware of evidence, please post it).

 

Personally can take up to 50g per day, and up to 10g per dose of regular ascorbic acid without bowel intolerance.
 

 

Price is around is around 30 USD for 200 grams. Price used to be very high around double that so I only used to stock it for when I wanted to dose high like when I felt I was getting sick instead of daily use. But now at that price point it's more practical for daily use imo.

 

But there is such a high profit margin for such lies, and people always fall for it without any evidence.

 

In local markets I pay 1,95 EUR per a 100 g bottle of pure ascorbic acid powder. In the last 10 years I used about 24 g/d: 24g x365d x10y =  87kg x 0,0195 = 1.708,20 EUR.

 

By paying 15,- per 100 g that would have amounted to 13.140,- USD!

 

It might matter not much how one is wasting one's money. But with chronic diseases (PAD II, COPD I, T2D, ME/CFS) and therefore being able to work only part-time and earn less, vitamin C wasn't optional for me. Wasting money wasn't an option either.


Edited by pamojja, 18 September 2018 - 01:44 PM.

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#17 granmasutensil

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 02:36 PM

This is just a really gross marketing hype. There isn't even one dose escalating study which shows it would in any way be better absorbed or longer than regular vitamin C powders. Not to talk about comparing it to liposomal, which itself still is in need of evidence for higher intercellular levels (or if you're aware of evidence, please post it).

 

Personally can take up to 50g per day, and up to 10g per dose of regular ascorbic acid without bowel intolerance.
 

 

But there is such a high profit margin for such lies, and people always fall for it without any evidence.

 

In local markets I pay 1,95 EUR per a 100 g bottle of pure ascorbic acid powder. In the last 10 years I used about 24 g/d: 24g x365d x10y =  87kg x 0,0195 = 1.708,20 EUR.

 

By paying 15,- per 100 g that would have amounted to 13.140,- USD!

 

It might matter not much how one is wasting one's money. But with chronic diseases (PAD II, COPD I, T2D, ME/CFS) and therefore being able to work only part-time and earn less, vitamin C wasn't optional for me. Wasting money wasn't an option either.

 

What is marketing hype exactly? Ascorbic acid absorption is severely limited after the initial 250 mg. Having four uptake pathways bypasses that issue. One vs four... there is going to be a difference. There were as far as I know two studies done with it so if you want them just email them. I don't have the free time to track them down right now so that would be a quicker option for you. I remember the creator of the patent saying it was studied to have a 66% absorption and the 10 hour period in blood serum vs 3-4 of basic ascorbic acid. I don't know when the last time you've been to a health food store was but 20-30 dollars is a pretty average price range for supplements for a long time now. So I don't know why you are bringing up price when I'm obviously referring to having some level of disposable income which in your case you are pointing out you never had one I take it. Dosages obviously vary between different forms of supplements. I think you are a little delusional if you think it's pretty standard for most people to be able to take 10 grams ascorbic acid and not have serious bathroom issues.... I can't take even 3 grams. Most people are going to need buffered c at higher doses to say the least.
 


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#18 pamojja

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Posted 21 September 2018 - 09:35 PM

There were as far as I know two studies done with it so if you want them just email them. I don't have the free time to track them down right now so that would be a quicker option for you. I remember the creator of the patent saying it was studied to have a 66% absorption and the 10 hour period in blood serum vs 3-4 of basic ascorbic acid.

 
Here at LongeCity it's usually considered good behavior for the one making extraordinary claims, to support them with references for scientific evidence oneself - and not to send others off to fruitless searches. Since you are new here I'll forgive, even knowing such a inquiry would turn out fruitless.
 
In short their reply to my question was: yes there are studies who support their claims, but for references should contact their research director. The research director responded with asking about my motivation for asking for references. Since mailing them for the 3 time heard nothing back.
 

What is marketing hype exactly?

 
They would be proudly provide scientific references for their claim:
 

Enhanced absorption using four unique uptake pathways

 
But they can't. Therefore they hype the marketing of their product with fraudulent unsupported claims. Here a thorough review of science of the better bio-availabitlity of different vitamin C preparations:
 
https://lpi.oregonst...plemental-forms
 
Vitality C wasn't even worth being mentioned.
 

I don't know when the last time you've been to a health food store was but 20-30 dollars is a pretty average price range for supplements for a long time now. So I don't know why you are bringing up price when I'm obviously referring to having some level of disposable income which in your case you are pointing out you never had one I take it.

 
The cheapest I found it was for $35.72 on Amazon for their 4g vitamin C for 30 days. Here an Amazon review about price and their fraudulent claims:
 

.0 out of 5 stars FASM: Freakin Advertizing-Speak Mumbojumbo

I really hate it when corporations attempt to pretend there's something special about something that's completely normal by either making up a special name for something normal, calling it something other than what it is, or calling it by it's scientific name again pretending it's special, so they can fleece the customer at a much higher price. This product does both. "FASM" is just plain regular normal sodium ascorbate, my friends. Molecularly it's identical to every other sodium ascorbate sold on Amazon. You can get 5lbs as cheap as $40 Amazon prime. That's *less* than $0.02 per gram. This works out to $0.17 per gram of which only 2/3 is their "FASM" vitamin c (which is regular sodium ascorbate). The other 1/3 is ribose, a sugar (the "GMS" is more marketing speak - ribose is defined by its molecular structure, if you change the structure and won't be it ribose anymore). Why doesn't the description talk about ribose at all? Because there no literature anywhere that even suggests that it might help vitamin c in any way. Not anywhere. No reason to add that to this supplement (other than it will taste slightly better). Incidentally you can buy ribose powder separately, Amazon prime, for less than $0.04 per gram, if you want it (though I don't know why you would). Here you're paying $0.17 per gram of it. As for being better on your stomach ... If it's better on your stomach when you're sick that's because you're sick, not because it's better. I've consumed well over 100 grams in one day in order to keep a particularly virulent cold at bay with very little discomfort ... Regular sodium ascorbate (incidentally I never did fully come down with it; it was gone the next day). When I'm feeling 100% I can't do 1\5th that without serious stomach issues. So don't let a brand make you their junkie just because their brand didn't upset your stomach. It's a function of your situation, not the brand.

 
 

I think you are a little delusional if you think it's pretty standard for most people to be able to take 10 grams ascorbic acid and not have serious bathroom issues.... I can't take even 3 grams. Most people are going to need buffered c at higher doses to say the least.

 
I clearly stated that it applies to myself who tolerates 10 g a dose, not anyone else. If you misread, anything appears a little delusional, but only for you.
 
Here an interesting study with compared 4 regular oral vitamin C to 4g liposomal, 4g IV, and 4g placebo. Much better than above study I added in post #4, in that it had 11 study participants, than only 2 in the one above:
 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4915787/

 

Attached File  nmi-9-2016-025f2.jpg   591.12KB   0 downloads

All 11 of the enrolled research participants completed the study. The vitamin C, irrespective of mode of delivery, was well tolerated, and there were no adverse events.

 

So therefore you're not even being able to tolerate 3 g in one dose is rather the rare exception. Buffered C doesn't have to be that expensive, just mix half the weight of ascorbic acid with even cheaper sodium bicarbonate in a glass of water, and perfectly pH neutral sodium ascorbate will result. The same as in overpriced Vitality C.


Edited by pamojja, 21 September 2018 - 09:44 PM.

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#19 granmasutensil

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Posted 22 September 2018 - 01:55 AM

 
Here at LongeCity it's usually considered good behavior for the one making extraordinary claims, to support them with references for scientific evidence oneself - and not to send others off to fruitless searches. Since you are new here I'll forgive, even knowing such a inquiry would turn out fruitless.
 
In short their reply to my question was: yes there are studies who support their claims, but for references should contact their research director. The research director responded with asking about my motivation for asking for references. Since mailing them for the 3 time heard nothing back.
 

 
They would be proudly provide scientific references for their claim:
 

 
But they can't. Therefore they hype the marketing of their product with fraudulent unsupported claims. Here a thorough review of science of the better bio-availabitlity of different vitamin C preparations:
 
https://lpi.oregonst...plemental-forms
 
Vitality C wasn't even worth being mentioned.
 

 
The cheapest I found it was for $35.72 on Amazon for their 4g vitamin C for 30 days. Here an Amazon review about price and their fraudulent claims:
 

 
 

 
I clearly stated that it applies to myself who tolerates 10 g a dose, not anyone else. If you misread, anything appears a little delusional, but only for you.
 
Here an interesting study with compared 4 regular oral vitamin C to 4g liposomal, 4g IV, and 4g placebo. Much better than above study I added in post #4, in that it had 11 study participants, than only 2 in the one above:
 

 

So therefore you're not even being able to tolerate 3 g in one dose is rather the rare exception. Buffered C doesn't have to be that expensive, just mix half the weight of ascorbic acid with even cheaper sodium bicarbonate in a glass of water, and perfectly pH neutral sodium ascorbate will result. The same as in overpriced Vitality C.

 

 

Yes I completely agree. I just made a suggestion first post and posted what I knew about it. When I went to get the information you wanted I found the one brand that sells the product is reformulating their line and all their products were pulled. Normally from that brand they have on their page one of the two research papers posted. That's why I said your best bet was to contact the other company that makes vitality C since they aren't going a big change and I don't have much free time to inquire right away. The other article was posted in a article made by the patent holder. I don't know why there would even be a patent if it's just sodium ascorbate with ribose dumped in. If that is the case then what they've said is flat out false advertising and have blatantly lied. I will look into it myself and try and contact the patent holder for clarification. Yes I have done that in the past with baking soda and ascorbic acid, it's hard to keep down though I find. It's like drinking salt water.

 

Given the nature of liposomes would a bloodtest even be accurate in the first place in judging the effectiveness though... Wouldn't urine tests paint a more accurate picture.

 


 


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#20 pamojja

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Posted 22 September 2018 - 10:55 AM

I don't know why there would even be a patent if it's just sodium ascorbate with ribose dumped in.

 

Only found out, the patent long expired already. If one has enough cash I guess anyone can patent any exotic combination of nutrients nobody before thought about. Along with some in-vitro or animal studies hinting at some novel discovered mechanism.

 

Also the patent of Linus Pauling (https://patents.goog...t/US5278189A/en) only contains a mix of common nutrients. Though I'm pretty certain he patented it for preventing some other company stealing his research and charging premiums...

 

Yes I have done that in the past with baking soda and ascorbic acid, it's hard to keep down though I find. It's like drinking salt water.

 

It's important to add not more than half the weight as sodium ascorbate, otherwise the mix will turn alkaline. Or take it with a little stevia-extract, or right away in a fruit-juice to mask the taste.

 

Given the nature of liposomes would a bloodtest even be accurate in the first place in judging the effectiveness though... Wouldn't urine tests paint a more accurate picture.

 

The last study linked to measured also a markers of lipid peroxidation with the different kinds of vitamin c administration and placebo:

 

Attached File  nmi-9-2016-025f3.jpg   557.12KB   0 downloads

 

So even surprising results there (except for the placebo).

 

Each test has it's own faults. Many labs don't know that vitamin C in mega-doses has a short half-life in serum of only half an hour, while in deficiency half-life prolongs to up to 30 days. Therefore most labs don't take the necessary precautions with the sample and will test already half an hour after the blood-draw only half of what actually has been in your blood (in mega-dosers).

 

Urine only tells how much has been excreted. Even less predictive of the concentration in your blood.

 

If I remember right, Dr. Levy has made the clinical observation that in infections liposomal vitamin C is about 10 times more effective than regular, but not for any other condition. However, some immediately misunderstood him and think liposomal would be in every case 10 times more effective. Which according to Dr. Levy it definitely isn't.
 

So best approach for being certain about effectiveness still remains ceasing of disease-symptoms, along with as many lab markers one can get (while going certain the particular lab knows what it does..).


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#21 pamojja

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Posted 22 September 2018 - 11:13 AM

Ascorbic acid absorption is severely limited after the initial 250 mg.

 

This myth persists after dose-escalating studies of up to 2.5g of single dose ascorbic acid, and extrapolating serum levels for all higher doses. Only that much much higher doses have been measured, for example in this study in post #4 of this thread again:

 

We studied 139 consecutive consenting non-diabetic patients in an oncology clinic. The patients had been encouraged as part of their treatment to supplement AA. Self-reported daily intake varied from 0 to 20 g/day. The plasma AA levels ranged from 11.4 to 517 µmol/L and correlated well with the reported intake. Regression analysis of their GHb and plasma AA values showed a statistically significant inverse association (eg, each 30 µmol/L increase in plasma AA concentration resulted in a decrease of 0.1 in GHb).

 

A discussion about the history of that NIH myth here.

 

 

PS: Sort of funny that the short for ascorbic acid, AA gets turned into a link on LongeCity with the translation to 'Anti-Aging'.


Edited by pamojja, 22 September 2018 - 11:26 AM.


#22 SillyRabbit

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Posted 27 September 2018 - 08:10 AM

So to switch gears a bit, if one is wanting to take Vitamin C on an empty stomach to avoid its Iron enhancing effects, is plain Ascorbic Acid with some Bioflavanoids going to cause stomach issues? Is it necessary to take a buffered form? I’d rather avoid both Calcium and Sodium supplements if I can, but I don’t want to have stomach problems either.

#23 pamojja

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Posted 27 September 2018 - 10:18 AM

So to switch gears a bit, if one is wanting to take Vitamin C on an empty stomach to avoid its Iron enhancing effects, is plain Ascorbic Acid with some Bioflavanoids going to cause stomach issues? Is it necessary to take a buffered form? I’d rather avoid both Calcium and Sodium supplements if I can, but I don’t want to have stomach problems either.

 

You have to switch gears, but in experimenting and following up with lab-testing. For example in my case taking ascorbic acid on an empty and full stomach didn't raise my low ferritin at all. With or without bioflavanoids, plain or buffered, neither caused issues. An other will report the opposite with already low doses because of bio-chemical individuality, different metabolism, preconditions, detoxification abilities...
 

The way to avoid stomach problems is by starting with lowest possible doses and increasing gradually over weeks, months and years. As soon as problems arise - lower the dose again, experiment with gradually adding bicarbonates..


Edited by pamojja, 27 September 2018 - 10:20 AM.


#24 Oakman

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Posted 27 September 2018 - 01:23 PM

Here's a bit of perspective for everyone worrying about which Vit C and its effects. For the last 45 years, yes 45, I've taken Vitamin C of one form or another without incident. From pure powder to complexes of all types. I'm still healthy, no scurvy for sure, but no other Vitamin C related problems or any other significant health ones either - none - and I'm confident Vit C has played its part.

 

I originally took it back in college for mouth health and for colds, up to a dose of 1 gram/hr when having a cold or the flu, so occasionally say, 10 grams/day. And I've taken typically 1 gram a day for much of those decades.

 

Only in the last 10 years have I cut to ~500 mgs/day. Currently, I'm favoring Solaray Super Bio-Plex Vitamin C Bioflavonoids (500 mg Vit C/ 500 mg Bioflavonoids). Why? Because the Vitamin C component comes from Ascorbic Acid, Rose Hips, and Acerola Cherries, a nice mix; and the Bioflavonoids Concentrate Hesperidin Concentrate, Rutin Concentrate, and Citrus Pectin offers a good mix of 'accessory' ingredients I don't regularly get otherwise.

 

Put another way, stop worrying, take your C and enjoy whatever type you like, it's (mostly) all good, as long as it's unadulterated. Any extra are a bonus.


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#25 brosci

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Posted 04 October 2018 - 08:15 AM

FWIW, for now I settled on the Designs For Health: Stellar C product.  It's 200mg of Acerola extract (standardized to contain 25% C), 100mg bioflavonoids to contain 50% hesperidin, 50mg rutin, 50mg quercetin, totaling 600mg of C per capsule.  This seemed like a good compromise of getting the polyphenols in without taking such a high dose, while getting some blend of a standardized natural source of C.  I could do without the quercetin, as I'm already taking this in other supplements (Thorne ResveraCel), but another 50mg seems relatively tame.

 

I'm curious if there's any concern (at all?) when supplementing Calcium Ascorbate.  On pubmed, calcium supplementation often looks sketchy from an atherogenic stance, where it seems like attaching it to something like ascorbic acid would be a reactive sort of delivery.


Edited by brosci, 04 October 2018 - 08:20 AM.


#26 John250

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Posted 04 October 2018 - 03:41 PM

Recently started using 8g Vitality C. Curious what the gms Ribose is that they add. I emailed them the following question which they seem to not be able to answer:

“I had a question about the GMS Ribose added to the Vitality C. Is it ribose or D-ribose? Then I read it was methylated glycine. If that’s the case what is the difference between methylated glycine and L-Glycine or Glycine?”

#27 brosci

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Posted 30 December 2018 - 06:42 AM

Recently started using 8g Vitality C. Curious what the gms Ribose is that they add. I emailed them the following question which they seem to not be able to answer:

“I had a question about the GMS Ribose added to the Vitality C. Is it ribose or D-ribose? Then I read it was methylated glycine. If that’s the case what is the difference between methylated glycine and L-Glycine or Glycine?”

 

What exactly is GMS-Ribose?  I'm re-ordering vitamin C and looking around at the different options again -- I wish there was something like a Longvida of the vitamin c bioflavonoid world with some patented blend of all the polyphenols you find in citrus.  It looks like the Pure Encapsulations C might have more in the way of naringin than the Designs For Health blend... but who knows, one says a blend + naringin while the other mentions a blend, likely containing naringin.  On the Solaray Super Bio Plex product, I noticed that it mentions a 500mg "bioflavonoid blend" containing fiber + concentrates... so, it's questionable to me if that's 100mg of flavonoids or 200mg... or... 300+... or 75mg... and does that include quercetin or even something like tangeretin / nobiletin?

 

On a keto diet with IF, I've been hesitant to supplement ribose, as I've read it lowers blood sugar pretty dramatically.  Similarly, I've avoided ALA.


Edited by brosci, 30 December 2018 - 06:47 AM.


#28 John250

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Posted 31 December 2018 - 03:51 AM

What exactly is GMS-Ribose? I'm re-ordering vitamin C and looking around at the different options again -- I wish there was something like a Longvida of the vitamin c bioflavonoid world with some patented blend of all the polyphenols you find in citrus. It looks like the Pure Encapsulations C might have more in the way of naringin than the Designs For Health blend... but who knows, one says a blend + naringin while the other mentions a blend, likely containing naringin. On the Solaray Super Bio Plex product, I noticed that it mentions a 500mg "bioflavonoid blend" containing fiber + concentrates... so, it's questionable to me if that's 100mg of flavonoids or 200mg... or... 300+... or 75mg... and does that include quercetin or even something like tangeretin / nobiletin?

On a keto diet with IF, I've been hesitant to supplement ribose, as I've read it lowers blood sugar pretty dramatically. Similarly, I've avoided ALA.


I wrote the company and they never responded. All I can gather is GMS-Ribose is a patented proprietary blend of methylated glycine. Not very helpful.

#29 brosci

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Posted 31 December 2018 - 06:38 AM

I wrote the company and they never responded. All I can gather is GMS-Ribose is a patented proprietary blend of methylated glycine. Not very helpful.

 

Wouldn't ribose be a type of sugar, vs glycine a type of amino acid?  I don't see how you would get an amino acid out of X-Ribose.

 

Those proprietary blends can be annoying. I kind of feel like "bioflavonoids" falls into this category of being some combination of unknown compounds supplied in unknown amounts.


Edited by brosci, 31 December 2018 - 06:41 AM.

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#30 John250

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 01:14 AM

Wouldn't ribose be a type of sugar, vs glycine a type of amino acid? I don't see how you would get an amino acid out of X-Ribose.

Those proprietary blends can be annoying. I kind of feel like "bioflavonoids" falls into this category of being some combination of unknown compounds supplied in unknown amounts.


I’m not sure all I could find was ribose and D ribose which are different but then I found that GMS ribose is a methylated Glycine. This is what I wrote the company and they have not replied several times probably because they don’t know LOL

service@naturalhealthyconcepts.com

“I had a question about the GMS Ribose added to the Vitality C. Is it ribose or D-ribose? Then I read it was methylated glycine. If that’s the case what is the difference between methylated glycine and L-Glycine or Glycine? Thanks”
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