43 replies to this topic

[experimenting]

I know this is a controversial one.

I'd imagine many here have near vegetarian diets. If you suffer from chronic fatigue, might iron supplementation be the thing you need?

I tried 36mg of ferrous glycinate today and I got a weird mood lift. A few hours later, cognition and mood are on point. No confounds I can think of, taking d3 and a k complex alongside as I have for a long time.

Thoughts?

[pamojja]

For men and premenopausal women only when serum ferritin is too low. Experimented with some supplemental iron, though in my case ferritin is only borderline low, but Transferrin, Transferrin Saturation and total Iron binding capacity many times completely off. Found some betain-HCL (stomach acid) helped better by increasing uptake from food.

[John250]

It’s always best just to get a blood test done first to see if you need it.
Iron serum
Ferritin
TIBC

[Skyguy2005]

It really depends what your genetics and lifestyle are. The whole "iron is bad and periods are the cause of female long life" kaboodle has got a bit out of hand IMO. Iron isn't bad, it just has to be in the right sweet spot.

[experimenting]

It really depends what your genetics and lifestyle are. The whole "iron is bad and periods are the cause of female long life" kaboodle has got a bit out of hand IMO. Iron isn't bad, it just has to be in the right sweet spot.

Yep I might just aim for RDA from a multi. Any idea the best form?

[Daniel Cooper]

Blood test and supplement if necessary, otherwise no.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Phoebus]

http://www.chiro.org...ood_Thing.shtml

 

Bill Sardi has a theory about excess iron being the main driver of aging, its pretty interesting 

[Dorian Grey]

If ferritin is documented low (below 30-40) by all means bump it up a bit.  Just make sure you keep on top of your levels and don't start an open-ended regime of indefinite supplementation without monitoring your levels.  

 

The hydroxyl radical is perhaps the most destructive (naturally occurring) force within the human body, and free/labile iron is what fuels the fenton reaction that creates the hydroxyl.  A small ocean of information explaining the results here: 

 

http://www.healtheiron.com/

 

My own "omnibus" on Ferrotoxic Disease here:

 

https://www.longecit...isease-omnibus/

 

Personally, if I wanted to raise iron, I'd go with heme iron in red meat rather than the highly reactive elemental iron in supplements.  Important also to remember, besides iron, Vitamin B-12 and folate are required to generate red blood cells.  

[Phoebus]

 

 

The hydroxyl radical is perhaps the most destructive (naturally occurring) force within the human body, and free/labile iron is what fuels the fenton reaction that creates the hydroxyl.  A small ocean of information explaining the results here: 

 

 

 

very true 

 

Iron oxide is extremely toxic for hte body, especially the nervous system/brain 

 

misbehaving brain iron is the difference between those with amyloid in the brain with NO dementia symptoms and those with amyloid in the brain WITH dementia symptoms. 

 

 

 

 

Previous research has long linked Alzheimer’s to a build-up in amyloid protein fragments in the brain that are normally broken down in healthy brains. But efforts to treat Alzheimer’s by using drugs that reduce amyloid levels have so far failed, leading to speculation that something else is driving the disease.

 

New research from the Florey Institute of Neuroscience and Mental Health and the University of Melbourne has found that iron might be the culprit. Iron has a special property that allows it to exchange electrons, which is crucial in allowing our bodies to generate energy from oxygen and fuels such as sugars. But it can also damage neurons in the same way that iron metal rusts in the presence of oxygen.

The researchers used cutting edge magnetic resonance imaging techniques to measure iron levels in the brain. They found that people with high levels of iron in combination with high levels of amyloid were suffering rapid cognitive decline, but that people with high levels of amyloid but low levels of iron in the brain, were stable.

They are now going to carry out a five year trial to test whether an anti-iron drug can slow the progress of Alzheimer’s, in what would be a major breakthrough in finding a treatment.

https://pursuit.unim...-to-alzheimer-s

[Dorian Grey]

Great link Phoebus.  Brain iron one of the "universal signs" of Alzheimer's.  

 

Can't believe they are finally looking at chelation to halt progression of disease.  

 

https://www.bloomber...zheimer-s-fight

 

Pulling Iron From Brain May Offer Hope in Alzheimer’s Fight

 

"Doctors in Toronto in the mid-1980s found that twice-daily shots of desferrioxamine mesylate -- used for managing excess iron levels in the blood of thalassemia sufferers -- reduced the rate of cognitive decline by 50 percent over two years. Ironically, the study of 48 probable Alzheimer’s patients was conducted to investigate the role of another metal, aluminum.

“It remains one of the only positive clinical trials for Alzheimer’s disease,” said Scott Ayton, a research fellow with the Florey Institute of Neuroscience and Mental Health in Melbourne, who is also working on the deferiprone study.

The Canadian research wasn’t replicated or followed up at the time amid growing interest in targeting amyloid, he said. In the past few years, evidence supporting iron’s pernicious role in Alzheimer’s disease has mounted.

Patients with more iron in their brains deteriorate first and fastest, and those with low iron seem to have slower or delayed progression of the disease"

 

A wise man named Sherlock Holmes once said: "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."

Edited by Dorian Grey, 07 October 2018 - 07:04 AM.

[Phoebus]

Great link Phoebus.  Brain iron one of the "universal signs" of Alzheimer's.  

 

Can't believe they are finally looking at chelation to halt progression of disease.  

 

 

 

 

 Quercetin chelates iron just as effectively as 2 prescription iron chelators 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Quercetin was found to bind Fe2+ more strongly than the well-known Fe2+ chelator ferrozine. Quercetin can also bind Fe3+, Ga3+ and Zn2+. Interestingly, quercetin completely suppressed iron-promoted Fenton chemistry at micromolar levels, even in the presence of the major cellular iron chelators ATP or citrate. Data from this study indicate that the radical scavenging activity of quercetin provides only partial protection against Fenton chemistry-mediated damage. On the other hand, iron chelation by quercetin can completely inhibit the Fenton chemistry. Thus, quercetin’s antioxidant activity may be attributed to its iron-chelation activity [191]. Furthermore, superoxide radical-scavenging activity of flavonoid iron complexes was found to be more effective than the uncomplexed parent flavonoid [195]. Quercetin was found to bind Fe2+ more strongly than the well-known Fe2+ chelator ferrozine. Quercetin can also bind Fe3+, Ga3+ and Zn2+. 95].               https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3821171/

 

 

Now, Plain Q is not going to get into the brain much, but Q in fat might. There is an excellent Q product that is Q bound to a phospholipid, which will make it more likely to cross the BBB and chelate brain iron. Also not it specifically binds to Fe2+, thats the toxic form of iron 

 

https://www.amazon.c...e?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

something to consider 

Edited by Phoebus, 07 October 2018 - 03:21 PM.

[John250]

very true

Iron oxide is extremely toxic for hte body, especially the nervous system/brain

misbehaving brain iron is the difference between those with amyloid in the brain with NO dementia symptoms and those with amyloid in the brain WITH dementia symptoms.

Would these negatives only be if one is supplementing with too much iron or specific forms of iron? Thanks

[Phoebus]

Would these negatives only be if one is supplementing with too much iron or specific forms of iron? Thanks

 

 

No one knows

 

somehow at some point iron becomes disregulated in the brain, but how and why is not known 

 

but high iron levels are associated with early death, whereas low iron levels are not. So there is that 

[experimenting]

I've supplemented for a few days now-and it seems quite dopmainergic beyond placebo. Just the RDA of 18mg which shouldn't be too dangerous? My dietary iron will be low given my zero meat and high lentil (phytic acid chelator) diet.

Do we know what might be a more safe form (e.g. Ironaid which is protein bound)?

[John250]

No one knows

somehow at some point iron becomes disregulated in the brain, but how and why is not known

but high iron levels are associated with early death, whereas low iron levels are not. So there is that

True but mitochondrial damage from low iron doesn’t sound too fun.

[Dorian Grey]

I've supplemented for a few days now-and it seems quite dopmainergic beyond placebo. Just the RDA of 18mg which shouldn't be too dangerous? My dietary iron will be low given my zero meat and high lentil (phytic acid chelator) diet.

Do we know what might be a more safe form (e.g. Ironaid which is protein bound)?

 

The FDA (in their infinite wisdom) has tweaked the RDA for iron. 

 

https://en.wikipedia...ce_Daily_Intake

 

18mg/day (including dietary sources) for females 19-30, but only 8mg/day (including dietary sources) for adult males and females over 30.  

 

I believe any source bound to protein would probably be safer than the highly reactive free ferrous or ferric iron found in most supps.  Ferrous iron in particular is very inflammatory in the bowel, & highly reactive in the body.  Ferric iron is not well absorbed, & requires stomach or dietary acids to facilitate utilization.  Vitamin-C and/or citrus (citric acid) in particular increases absorption of ferric iron when they are taken together in the same meal.  

 

These acids may overcome the chelating effect of dietary phytic acid too.  I know even a small amount of Vitamin-C will overcome the iron blocking effect of coffee & tea polyphenols.  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 09 October 2018 - 03:27 AM.

[dosquito]

look up lactoferrin. criminally underrated supplement

[John250]

look up lactoferrin. criminally underrated supplement

Agree. I use Jarrows. Great immune booster

[dosquito]

Agree. I use Jarrows. Great immune booster

 

i still have confusion about whether taking apolactoferrin (the one with the iron removed) every day is bad because it would actually deplete iron by scavenging it all up and cause deficiency. but there's no doubt that this supplement has a lot of potential

 

 

btw, if I recall correctly, jarrow's has fillers but life extension's does not.

Edited by dosquito, 09 October 2018 - 04:02 PM.

[ta5]

I tried Jarrow Lactoferrin 2-3 caps per day for months and could not budge my ferritin above 15. We need a 30% iron saturated Lactoferrin, and I don’t know of one. I know there’s the study the used Jarrow brand Lactoferrin in pregnant women that showed it boosted ferritin. But all I can say is it didn’t work for me.

Ferrochel has boosted my ferritin up to 29. I also stopped green tea extract and rutin. So that probably helped too. I would like to stop the Ferrochel and see if simply avoiding tea and rutin can keep it up. Then I would like to try Lactoferrin again. Because, it’s still possible that the tea and rutin were too much for the Lactoferrin to overcome.

[dosquito]

They have ironsorb + lactoferrin that I think has 18mg of iron

 

Do you feel better now that your ferritin is higher?

 

 

I sympathize with OP's results....I have noticed iron gave me more vigor and even made it harder to sleep. But this forum is so paranoid about iron i stopped taking

Edited by dosquito, 09 October 2018 - 07:33 PM.

[ta5]

I saw that IronSorb+ product. Seems weird. It’s not iron saturated Lactoferrin which is what I want. It’s just IPS + Lactoferrin.

I think I feel some better, yes.

Edited by ta5, 09 October 2018 - 07:53 PM.

[John250]

I tried Jarrow Lactoferrin 2-3 caps per day for months and could not budge my ferritin above 15. We need a 30% iron saturated Lactoferrin, and I don’t know of one. I know there’s the study the used Jarrow brand Lactoferrin in pregnant women that showed it boosted ferritin. But all I can say is it didn’t work for me.

Ferrochel has boosted my ferritin up to 29. I also stopped green tea extract and rutin. So that probably helped too. I would like to stop the Ferrochel and see if simply avoiding tea and rutin can keep it up. Then I would like to try Lactoferrin again. Because, it’s still possible that the tea and rutin were too much for the Lactoferrin to overcome.

I was just looking at that study. The problem I have is low ferritin but high hemoglobin. I need to try and find a way to increase my ferritin without increasing hemoglobin much which is difficult. Along time ago are used ferrous sulfate and it did improve my levels of iron serum with minimal impact on hemoglobin but did not improve ferritin as much. If you months ago I started using NOW’s Iron bisglycinate but haven’t gotten current ferritin checked yet.

[experimenting]

They have ironsorb + lactoferrin that I think has 18mg of iron

 

Do you feel better now that your ferritin is higher?

 

 

I sympathize with OP's results....I have noticed iron gave me more vigor and even made it harder to sleep. But this forum is so paranoid about iron i stopped taking

 

 

As per DorianGrey's recommendation I switched over to IronAid (iron protein succylinate). Apparently this was created to make iron easier on the stomach; it may be safer for the same reason as it's bound to proteins. 

 

So far...great results. There is a mild but weirdly noticeable dopaminergic effect. Motivated and unable to sleep if I take it at night...and my mood is slowly lifting (it's been a bad few months for me due to life stress) but somehow these negative thought patterns are being suppressed.

 

This is on a standard RDA dose of 15mg and due to the concerns of those here I have no intention to increase. Right now, I'm taking nothing else (even stopped the D/K2) to get a sense of how this affects me; if it proves fruitful the next step is probably to add in a standard multi and I have myself a decent stack.

 

This is potentially huge for me-I've struggled with mood and motivation and one crutch I leaned on was megadoses of Vitamin D. That put me in a hyper glutaminergic state which isn't great but was better than the alternative...but then I kept trying to fight hypercalcemia...if in fact an iron deficiency was at the root of it then I consider this a revolution. 

[John250]

As per DorianGrey's recommendation I switched over to IronAid (iron protein succylinate). Apparently this was created to make iron easier on the stomach; it may be safer for the same reason as it's bound to proteins.

So far...great results. There is a mild but weirdly noticeable dopaminergic effect. Motivated and unable to sleep if I take it at night...and my mood is slowly lifting (it's been a bad few months for me due to life stress) but somehow these negative thought patterns are being suppressed.

This is on a standard RDA dose of 15mg and due to the concerns of those here I have no intention to increase. Right now, I'm taking nothing else (even stopped the D/K2) to get a sense of how this affects me; if it proves fruitful the next step is probably to add in a standard multi and I have myself a decent stack.

This is potentially huge for me-I've struggled with mood and motivation and one crutch I leaned on was megadoses of Vitamin D. That put me in a hyper glutaminergic state which isn't great but was better than the alternative...but then I kept trying to fight hypercalcemia...if in fact an iron deficiency was at the root of it then I consider this a revolution.

How would IronAid compare to iron bisglycinate?

[experimenting]

How would IronAid compare to iron bisglycinate?

 

Both seem to be bound to proteins-glycine irritates my stomach so isn't for me.

[Skyguy2005]

very true 

 

Iron oxide is extremely toxic for hte body, especially the nervous system/brain 

 

misbehaving brain iron is the difference between those with amyloid in the brain with NO dementia symptoms and those with amyloid in the brain WITH dementia symptoms. 

 

 

Don't want too much iron in my brain. Don't want too much pizza in my brain. And yet still I consume them...

Anywho:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5605551/

https://content.iosp...sease/jad143108

 

The pattern from these two meta-analyses is clear. Alzheimers is associated with increased copper and reduced iron/zinc *serum* levels. So make of that what you will... it's almost as if serum iron and brain iron might be two different things.

Edited by Skyguy2005, 11 October 2018 - 09:31 PM.

[Dorian Grey]

Don't want too much iron in my brain. Don't want too much pizza in my brain. And yet still I consume them...

Anywho:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5605551/

https://content.iosp...sease/jad143108

 

The pattern from these two meta-analyses is clear. Alzheimers is associated with increased copper and reduced iron/zinc *serum* levels. So make of that what you will... it's almost as if serum iron and brain iron might be two different things.

 

Don't know if this applies here, but the "anemia of inflammation" aka "the anemia of chronic disease" results from the bodies response to inflammation & disease.  Hepcidin levels are ramped up to put iron into "lock-down" mode; this in a desperate attempt to stop iron from contributing to the inflammation or disease.  It's unfortunate, but this also results in chronic anemia, as iron transport to the blood generating area of the body is also shut down.  

 

It's quite possible to have the liver & brain overloaded with iron, while serum iron may be normal or even low and a "pseudo" iron deficiency anemia.  It's actually a fascinating aspect of the relationship between iron, inflammation & disease.  Amazing the body actually knows what to do to help control these.  The body has no way to get rid of excess iron, but the body can and does do what it can to sequester it!  

 

Fortunately, enlightened folks can prevent this from occurring in the first place, by bleeding off excess iron (whole blood donation), or chelating free/labile iron through dietary or supplemental quercetin, curcumin or phytic acid, before inflammation (or disease) starts running rampant.  This is most important in countries where food fortification with iron occurs (America/UK).  Much of Europe does not fortify with iron, and they are healthier and live longer without the need for bloodletting or chelation.  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 12 October 2018 - 03:04 AM.

[Skyguy2005]

Don't know if this applies here, but the "anemia of inflammation" aka "the anemia of chronic disease" results from the bodies response to inflammation & disease.  Hepcidin levels are ramped up to put iron into "lock-down" mode; this in a desperate attempt to stop iron from contributing to the inflammation or disease.  It's unfortunate, but this also results in chronic anemia, as iron transport to the blood generating area of the body is also shut down.  

 

It's quite possible to have the liver & brain overloaded with iron, while serum iron may be normal or even low and a "pseudo" iron deficiency anemia.  It's actually a fascinating aspect of the relationship between iron, inflammation & disease.  Amazing the body actually knows what to do to help control these.  The body has no way to get rid of excess iron, but the body can and does do what it can to sequester it!  

 

Fortunately, enlightened folks can prevent this from occurring in the first place, by bleeding off excess iron (whole blood donation), or chelating free/labile iron through dietary or supplemental quercetin, curcumin or phytic acid, before inflammation (or disease) starts running rampant.  This is most important in countries where food fortification with iron occurs (America/UK).  Much of Europe does not fortify with iron, and they are healthier and live longer without the need for bloodletting or chelation.  

 

But surely, blood donation can't be "enlightened" until you could measure the effects of it on brain iron? Since brain iron appears positively associated with Alzheimers and blood iron appears negatively correlated with Alzheimers, it seems the effect of blood iron on brain iron is not so strong.

I think quercetin, curcumin, phytic acid could be good without it having anything to do with iron, because they do as Rapamycin does and provoke autophagy.

[Dorian Grey]

Agree; once the brain is loaded up with iron, bloodletting ins't going to provide any real benefit, & even herbal chelators may not have much effect.  Hopefully the medical chelators will show promise at salvaging those with early stage Alzheimer's.  

 

An ounce of prevention worth a pound of cure!  Maintain good iron homeostasis throughout your life, & hopefully your brain will last as long as your body does.  

 

Keep ferritin out of triple digits and chelate the small amount of free/labile iron with good nutrition (or supps).  You'll minimize Fenton reactions and generation of hydroxyl radicals (the most destructive force in the body at the cellular level).