• Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In    
  • Create Account
  LongeCity
              Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans

Photo
- - - - -

Idebenone or CoQ10?


  • Please log in to reply
12 replies to this topic

#1 Brainbox

  • Member
  • 2,860 posts
  • 743
  • Location:Netherlands
  • NO

Posted 22 April 2006 - 06:44 PM


This seems to be a very obvious topic, but I was not able to find it here.

I'm thinking of adding CoQ10 or idebenone to my supplements.
Regarding some studies, idebenone should be better then CoQ10 in some situations or places (depending on blood flow and amount of oxygen.)
I also seem to read between the lines that idebenone has a broader spectrum of efficacy, but this information could very well be of commercial nature.

I want to target my heart and brain primarily, so I assume idebenone would be the better choice.

Am I correct?
Do I have my priorities correct?

I’m taking now:

LEF LE Mix, 4 tabs a day,
Fish oil, total of approx. 2 grams of EPA&DHA,
Rhodiola rosea, 150mg, 3% rosavins and 1% salidrosides.

I stopped the ALCAR/R-ALA combo for a while (gently reduced dose) to figure out if some minor skin problems are caused by the R-ALA.

#2 scottl

  • Guest
  • 2,177 posts
  • 2

Posted 22 April 2006 - 08:07 PM

IF you take idebenone you need something to mop up the free radicals in the mitochondria e.g. R-ALA, possibly NAC.

I do not know about idebenone and heart benefits. YOu migth want to double check that.

sponsored ad

  • Advert
Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for SUPPLEMENTS (in thread) to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

#3 guyledouche

  • Guest
  • 130 posts
  • -1

Posted 23 April 2006 - 02:28 AM

IF you take idebenone you need something to mop up the free radicals in the mitochondria e.g. R-ALA, possibly NAC.

I do not know about idebenone and heart benefits.  YOu migth want to double check that.


I thought that it was the other way around. I thought that CoQ10 caused free radical build up and Idebenone mops up free radicals.

#4 scottl

  • Guest
  • 2,177 posts
  • 2

Posted 23 April 2006 - 02:43 AM

Search here onder AORsupport who strongly recommends NOT taking Idebenone. Heh warning angry rant from Adam who disagreed initially, but agreed eventually.

I'm still waiting for a compelling reason to take the stuff ideb.

#5 carnosine

  • Guest
  • 38 posts
  • 0

Posted 23 April 2006 - 07:31 PM

Idebenone's pretty safe stuff and I feel mentally really clear when i take it.

#6 zoolander

  • Guest
  • 4,724 posts
  • 55
  • Location:Melbourne, Australia

Posted 23 April 2006 - 10:40 PM

In regards to idebenone as a nootropic:

Idebenone treatment fails to slow cognitive decline in Alzheimer's disease.

Thal LJ, Grundman M, Berg J, Ernstrom K, Margolin R, Pfeiffer E, Weiner MF, Zamrini E, Thomas RG.

Department of Neurosciences, University of California San Diego School of Medicine, La Jolla 92093-0624, USA. lthal@ucsd.edu

OBJECTIVE: To determine the effect of idebenone on the rate of decline in Alzheimer's disease (AD). METHODS: A 1-year, multicenter, double-blind, placebo-controlled, randomized trial was conducted. Subjects were over age 50 with a diagnosis of probable AD and had Mini-Mental State Examination (MMSE) scores between 12 and 25. Subjects were treated with idebenone 120, 240, or 360 mg tid, each of which was compared with placebo. Primary outcome measures were the Alzheimer's Disease Assessment Scale-Cognitive Subcomponent (ADAS-Cog) and a Clinical Global Impression of Change (CGIC). Secondary outcome measures included measurements of activities of daily living, the Behavioral Pathology in Alzheimer's Disease Rating Scale, and the MMSE. RESULTS: Five hundred thirty-six subjects were enrolled and randomized to the four groups. Except for a slight difference in age, there were no differences in patient characteristics at baseline. For the primary outcome measures, there were no significant overall differences between the treatment groups in the prespecified four-group design. In an exploratory two-group analysis comparing all three treated groups combined with placebo, drug-treated patients performed better on the ADAS-Cog in both the intent-to-treat (ITT) and completers analyses. There were no differences in the CGIC scores for the ITT or completers analyses in either the four-group or the two-group analyses. There were no overall differences on any of the secondary outcome measures in any of the analyses. CONCLUSION: Idebenone failed to slow cognitive decline in AD that was of sufficient magnitude to be clinically significant.

Publication Types:

    * Clinical Trial
    * Multicenter Study
    * Randomized Controlled Trial


PMID: 14663031 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Here is a useful summary on idebenone

Coenzyme Q10 and idebenone in the therapy of respiratory chain diseases: rationale and comparative benefits

Vanna Geromel, Niklas Darin, Dominique Chrétien, Paule Bénit, Pascale DeLonlay, Agnès Rötig, Arnold Munnich and Pierre RustinCorresponding Author Contact Information, E-mail The Corresponding Author

Service de Génétique Médicale and Unité de Recherches sur les Handicaps Génétiques de l’Enfant INSERM U-393, Hôpital Necker-Enfants Malades, 149, rue de Sèvres, 75743, Paris Cedex 15, France

Received 14 May 2002;  revised 29 July 2002;  accepted 29 July 2002. ; Available online 16 September 2002.

Idebenone (6-(10-hydroxydecyl)2,3-dimethoxy-5-methyl-1,4-benzoquinone) is a synthetic compound, initially patented by Takeda Chemical Industries, Osaka, Japan, which various properties were extensively reviewed by Nagy in 1990. The drug was introduced to the Japanese market as early as 1986. Initially its main indication was age-dependent impairments of brain functions. Its redox properties are those of a quinone analogue, with possible pro- and antioxidant activities, and ability to interact with other redox carriers including CoQ10 itself in the mitochondrial respiratory chain. In rodents, intraperitoneal LD50 was estimated to be about 800 mg/kg body weight while it would exceed 10 g/kg for subcutaneous and oral administration. Reversible subacute toxicity in rodents was observed for 2,5 g/kg/d, while 500 mg/kg/d provoked diarrhea in beagle dogs. Chronic toxicity study in the beagle dog resulted in similar figures with first signs appearing at 500 mg/kg body weight doses per os. Idebenone was found to be neither immunogenic in rodents nor mutagenic in bacteria or mice. In human, idebenone is absorbed rapidly and circulating concentration increases in a dose-dependent manner (2 μM 2 h, after 100 mg oral supplementation), but rapidly tends to lower by excretion.

In human, the safety of idebenone (60–300 mg) was established on a long-term period by treating elderly patients for two years without remarkable side effects [25]. However, idebenone, as other quinone analogues, is a redox active compound with distinctive kinetics properties towards other redox carriers, including components of the respiratory chain complexes. In vitro, it is able to favorably compete with natural CoQ10 to mediate electron transfer in isolated mitochondria and to divert a variable part of the electrons at the expense of electron flow to oxygen, particularly from complex I [26]. Being thus readily reduced, idebenone revealed then as a powerful antioxidant at the surface of the mitochondrial inner membrane.


Regarding the structural features of ubiquinone (coenzyme Q10) and idebenone. Unfortunately I could not attach a picture of the 2 compounds

Taking into account the extended dimension of CoQ10, it appears that the molecule is too long to fit the hydrophobic domain of a phospholipid bilayer, except if folded. Notice the short side-chain of idebenone (10 carbons) as compared to CoQ10 (50 carbons), the saturation of the idebenone side-chain, the presence of a terminal hydroxyl group, and of dimethoxy and methyl residues on the benzoquinone ring. All this concurs to make idebenone less hydrophobic than coenzyme Q10, affecting its partition and diffusion in biological membranes.



#7 scottl

  • Guest
  • 2,177 posts
  • 2

Posted 24 April 2006 - 02:14 AM

Zoolander,

Did you read AOrsupports comments?

#8 carnosine

  • Guest
  • 38 posts
  • 0

Posted 24 April 2006 - 05:51 AM

zoolander you post one study on idebenone in dementia that showed little benefit, however there are several studies that show it to be effective. I really would not use this to prove or disprove its nootropic effects in healthy humans.

Pharmacopsychiatry. 2002 Jan;35(1):12-8.
Safety and efficacy of idebenone versus tacrine in patients with Alzheimer's disease: results of a randomized, double-blind, parallel-group multicenter study.

In the LOCF analysis, 50 % of the patients randomized to idebenone but only 39.4 % of the patients randomized to tacrine showed an improvement in the Efficacy Index Score or at least one of the secondary outcome variables.



J Neural Transm Suppl. 1998;54:301-10.

Sustained efficacy and safety of idebenone in the treatment of Alzheimer's disease: update on a 2-year double-blind multicentre study.

There was no evidence for a loss of efficacy during the second year of treatment, as a further improvement of most efficacy variables was found in the second year in comparison to the results at the 12 months visit. Also, a clear dose effect relationship (placebo/90 mg < idebenone 90 mg < idebenone 120 mg) was maintained throughout the second year of treatment. This suggests that idebenone exerts its beneficial therapeutic effects on the course of the disease by slowing down its progression. Safety and tolerability of idebenone were good and similar to placebo during the first year of treatment and did not change during the second year.


Neuropsychobiology. 1997;36(2):73-82.
A controlled study of 2 doses of idebenone in the treatment of Alzheimer's disease.

After month 6 idebenone 90 mg t.i.d. showed statistically significant improvement in the primary efficacy variable ADAS-Total and in ADAS-Cog. The study results demonstrate the efficacy and safety of idebenone in the treatment of DAT patients.


Funct Neurol. 1994 May-Jun;9(3):161-8.
Idebenone, a new drug in the treatment of cognitive impairment in patients with dementia of the Alzheimer type.

Treatment with idebenone was found effective on memory, attention, and orientation and in slowing down the natural progressive worsening of the disease.


http://www.antiaging...t/idebenone.htm
http://www.vrp.com/a...rp.css&p=no&s=0
http://www.vrp.com/a...rp.css&p=no&s=0
http://www.thorne.co...e_monograph.pdf

#9 zoolander

  • Guest
  • 4,724 posts
  • 55
  • Location:Melbourne, Australia

Posted 24 April 2006 - 08:51 AM

zoolander you post one study on idebenone in dementia that showed little benefit, however there are several studies that show it to be effective. I really would not use this to prove or disprove its nootropic effects in healthy humans.


Did I say that I am using the study to prove or disprove? The study was published in 2003 and is the most recent to look at idebenone and age-related dementia. I just wanted to put it out there.

It sounds as though you have made your mind up about idebenone carnosine and plug it accordingly. I used to take carnosine but no longer do. I believe its cost is not equal to the benefits. For me, its a little expensive

#10 kenj

  • Guest
  • 747 posts
  • 67
  • Location:Copenhagen.

Posted 24 April 2006 - 09:54 PM

I used to take carnosine but no longer do. I believe its cost is not equal to the benefits. For me, its a little expensive


Regarding Carnosine, it does even more for me than emptying my pockets: I get a sympathetic (allergic) response from 500-1000mg. It seems it's an "essential" compound at 1000+mg in an anti-aging strategy but I just can't do it. [nuk]

#11 zoolander

  • Guest
  • 4,724 posts
  • 55
  • Location:Melbourne, Australia

Posted 25 April 2006 - 06:15 AM

Actually I meant to say that I used to use idebenone instead of carnosine. I still take carnosine and do not have any problems with it.

For me at the moment, Idebenone is not worth its cost

#12 meatwad

  • Guest
  • 196 posts
  • 0

Posted 25 April 2006 - 06:23 AM

25grams from 1fast is pretty cheap.

most stores are selling 90 x 45mg caps for 20 bucks.

Last foreveerrrrrrrrrrrr. I haven't repurchased any since Christmas
and I still have probably 10grams left.

sponsored ad

  • Advert
Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for SUPPLEMENTS (in thread) to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

#13 zoolander

  • Guest
  • 4,724 posts
  • 55
  • Location:Melbourne, Australia

Posted 25 April 2006 - 08:04 AM

It is not the easiest thing to cap so capping is not really something I want to do with idebenone. $20 for you is not for me as I live in Australia and have to pay for internatinal shipping




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users