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Socialists Vs. Capitalists


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#331 Mind

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 09:09 PM

immortal I think that you are forgetting something. The entire social structure which is socialist based is what allowed you to get where you are. Don't kid yourself that it was all you and you didn't get any help in getting where you are. Too many people who are rah rah Capitalism and free market forget to take an honest look at how they got where they are and the history of their own country. Society is about helping those who are less fortunate. You know, the whole "with great power comes great responsibility". The idea of I want mine and screw everyone else is a selfish human instinct that needs to be removed before humanity can truly better itself.


All I can say I disagree 99%

Society is about helping those who are less fortunate

and it is not about forcing people to help those who are (as defined by socialists) "less fortunate". Every socialist idea requires deadly force to implement. Take universal health care for example. You get it whether you want it or not or whether is good or not. If you refuse to pay your healthcare taxes...mr. policeman is waiting with his gun to FORCE you. You could say Imminst is a "socialist" place because we all come here to socialize and help each other out. It is part of the connected human world. The beauty part is that no one is FORCED to join or stay. It is so ethical it makes my heart melt. It is much better the the violent deadly FORCE that "socialism" requires.

I fully realize that I got to where I am because of the help of literally thousands and thousands of people both directly and indirectly. They helped me out of their own free will and I help other people because I WANT to help....not because I am forced to. Socialists define a set of actions that are "correct", like priests in the church, and then they force everyone to obey. I don't like it. Why can't we just live by the golden rule? Why can't we just live and let live?

#332 vortexentity

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 10:07 PM

Socialism = others decide how best to invest or spend my money for me

Capitalism= I decide how best to invest or spend my money for me

It is just that basic in my thinking. Perhaps I am missing something. [thumb]

#333 mitkat

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 11:34 PM

In Canada, we have a national health care system. I have not encountered a single person who has any sort of qualms with this (maybe some libertarians, I wouldn't know). The policemen wouldn't come and get you, because it's just a normal taxation, and everybody pays their taxes, right? :) I don't know anyone who has had teeth falling out of their head, for instance, or collapsing sick in a poor area because they can't afford to go see the doctor to get prescribed antibiotics (not that they could afford them anyways). Is this such a huge price to pay? Is thsi infringing on personal right so much? I feel universal healthcare is an incredibly ethical venture.

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#334 vortexentity

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 12:21 AM

I am a bit torn on the issue of universal health care. I for one am 43 years of age and I have been to hospitals and to a Dr. 3 times in my life. I paid through the mose each time. I have no health coverage at all. I work for myself and if I am very ill I will likely die. If I am hit by a car or some such more likely thing I will be paying for it for the next several years unless that person has insurance.

I think Dr.'s are far too pricy and the reason that health care is out of reach for much of America is that the cost is simply out of reason with what is being offered. For example I went into the emergency room with an infected spider bite on my ankle. The cost to take my temp and bp was $170. The cost to see a PA for 5 minutes was $360. I recieved a perscription for antibiotics and spent another $60 on that.

The total was $590 for a couple of minutes of service and no real cost to the hospital. The same service could have been done in a convience store type of operation for 1/3 that cost. It is a matter of access and fair pricing in many instances. Dr's have priced their services far too high and this causes gaps in coverage. Universal coverage would simply make these fat cats richer by having the government pay the cost for those who could not afford it.

They could have some kind of social service medicine but it should be run by volunteers who do it because they care about people, it should be funded by social charities and churches and not by tax payers unless they elect to pay and will be using the services themselves.

IMHO [thumb]

#335 mitkat

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 12:48 AM

Dr's have priced their services far too high and this causes gaps in coverage. Universal coverage would simply make these fat cats richer by having the government pay the cost for those who could not afford it.



I'm not sure I understand you here...under a true universal coverage, it's not a matter of affordability, as services are rendered as long as you can fully identify yourself as a tax-paying citizen. Just how different are doctor's prices in the states?

They could have some kind of social service medicine but it should be run by volunteers who do it because they care about people, it should be funded by social charities and churches and not by tax payers unless they elect to pay and will be using the services themselves.


That would be pretty neat. I would like to believe that doctors, nurses, medical technicians, endless support staff, etc, have some vested interest in our health :) Some of them happen to get paid large for it!

#336 Mind

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 01:51 AM

Mitkat, I read survey taken last year whose results revealed that 68% of people in Quebec want a private option in their health care service. There were not totally rejecting the public system, but they wanted other options too.

#337 mitkat

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 02:07 AM

Mitkat, I read survey taken last year whose results revealed that 68% of people in Quebec want a private option in their health care service. There were not totally rejecting the public system, but they wanted other options too.


Yeah, I believe that. Probably just as much a percentage has existed at some point in the past 30 years or so that Quebeckers wanted to become a sovereign nation. Quebec is in many, many ways very different from other parts of Canada, and can't be seen as representitive of such. I would like to see that survery based in Ontario or British Columbia, especially in more urban areas! :) Some conservative factions of the gov't want to pursue further privitization options, but I'm not so sure it's ever going to fly. I feel it would not work well in a fully mixed system at all - the best doctors would obviously go to higher paying, privitized clinics tending to the extremely wealthy.

Edited by mitkat, 11 November 2006 - 02:18 AM.


#338 halcyondays

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 02:44 AM

Dead wrong, Capitalism is directly responsible for the economic success of this country. Capitalism is also the only economic system compatible with principles of the US constitution. The last 80 years of US history have been an unfortunate series of steps in the wrong direction, beginning with the New Deal and the abandonment of the gold standard. These government programs fly in the face of individual rights, and are responsible for the stagnation of the standard of living for all classes (which was on an unprecedented rise previously).

There are a multitude of factors that have led to the success of the USA, not the least of which includes geography. Also, you can have a large booming economy and still have massive poverty. Economic indicators are not the only thing by which you should judge a Countries "success" on. It is obvious to me that you are a Free Market proponent and I am not, so we can agree to disagree on that point. I believe that Countries like Norway and Sweden are the best economic models to follow, and the proof is in the statistics, they are the top countries to live in, in the world. I know Americans like to be patriotic, but I think that gets in the way of logic and reason sometimes.

As for the decrease in the purchasing power of people in the US. That can be directly tied to Businesses not matching employee pay raises to rising inflation. There has been a massive shift of wealth from the middle class to the rich because of this. It's why you need to parents working in order to keep a middle class lifestyle, to own a house, two cars, 2.5 kids, and a dog. The American dream has been steadily pulling away from the reach of an increasing number of people because of the selfishness of Corporations. Any Economic system based on infinite profits in a finite world is seriously broken.



The only means by which such technologies can be developed and become available to everyone is by adhering to the laws of supply and demand, and allowing unfettered competition. The only way this natural progression can be stifled is by government interference.

I disagree. A free market economy would be a disaster for the world. It would create massive economic and social inequality, even more so than exists now. There is no truly Free Market society in the world. Every Country has some aspect of Socialism and Government control over the economy. If they didn't the system would be a mess. You honestly think there is a demand for mature nanotechnology, or for life extension technology? For most people it's a pipe dream, it's not possible, not in the next 100 years. So why should the federal government give any money to corporations that are going to fund this type of research? The government gives grants all the time to high tech companies and they don't get that money back. According to your thinking the government shouldn't be funding anyone. Or if you agree that it's ok to fund some corporations and not others.

If you think that the government can't push technological progress just look at the Atomic Bomb, or landing a Man on the Moon. You do not need economic competition to drive technological progress.


I'm sorry, but where is the motivation for developing such technologies? It doesn't exist, either in the individual or the government. The Socialist government has no motivation for improving the lives of its citizens, except in the realm of international politics, and the individual has no motivation to work amitiously as a slave.

Where is the motive? Why do people go into science? Just to make a buck? If that were the case everyone would be business owners and CEOs. A Socialist government has every reason to want to improve the lives of its citizens. I think you are confusing a Communist Dictatorship with true Communism and Socialism. Your ideas of Socialism are stuck in the Cold War era, and the propaganda thrown about by both sides. China is a Communist goverment, and they are pushing for massive technological development, militarily and otherwise.

That entire statement just reeks of Cold War era thinking and the inability to be objective when looking at Socialism. Socialism doesn't mean a Dictatorship, it doesn't mean no private ownership. It doesn't mean a lack of scientific innovation. I will grant you that Capitalism has helped technology to grow quicker in the first world because it appeals to human selfishness and greed. But it isn't the only way, which is my point. Not that one way or the other is better, but that you can have technological developments that equal those under Capitalism in a Communist State.


A morality that considers the 'we' as more important than the 'me' is incompatible with individual rights, with freedom, and thus with Capitalism. This is the morality of altruism, it is a remnant of religious philosophy, and it is utterly irrational.

Your understanding of economics is extremely misguided. Yes, as technology progresses (as it will and can only under Capitalism) goods will become cheaper and manual labor will become less valuable. Money does not lose it's value when material products become cheap, it gains value.


Since when is a corporation a "me"? You honestly arguing that a corporation is doing a moral good when they don't produce a drug that cures a disease because not enough people have the disease? I would argue that the "we" is equality important as the "me". It is because we are not completely selfish beings, because we look out for those who are weaker that we are where we are today. What you are essentially arguing is social Darwinism which is just an excuse to be selfish when you don't stand to benefit directly from the investment. You completely ignore the societal impact that your investment has, which in the longterm benefits you and everyone else. When people starting viewing the entire human race as they view their immediate family then we will be on the path to a better world.

As for my understanding of economics. I only took first year macro and micro economics in University, so I guess my understanding of economics isn't as good as yours. I suppose you were an economics major? I would say my understanding of basic economics is very strong, and I have no trouble understanding your viewpoint. But I completely disagree with it. I think you need to look at the internet as a model for future economic communities. I am arguing that money will no longer be a currency, that physical "things" will no longer hold any real value. It will be knowledge that will be "bought and sold", or rather traded between one another for more knowledge. Well, that is one scenario. Another scenario is a society in which knowledge is freely traded over networks between people for the sake of increasing knowledge. I think you are being a little parochial when it comes to how much society is going to change in the future with the introduction of desktop nanofactories and mature nanotechnology. I think you need to look to Torrent sites as an example of a possible future. Except that the torrents are molecular designs for products and once the information is purchased by one person it can be copied and downloaded by billions of people. Our current economic system will not hold up to these future technologies, there will be massive changes.

Lastly, I disagree that capitalism is the only thing that drives technology. the USSR was Communist when it launched the first satellite into space, they also create many other technologies that were unique and innovative. You do not need a free market economy to drive technological development, this is a fact. Now, I'm not arguing one way or the other which is better, or that it has to be either one or the other. I just believe that our current economic system is far from perfect and that it will have to change in the future if we are to have a fair and just society.

#339 halcyondays

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 02:55 AM

and it is not about forcing people to help those who are (as defined by socialists) "less fortunate". Every socialist idea requires deadly force to implement. Take universal health care for example. You get it whether you want it or not or whether is good or not. If you refuse to pay your healthcare taxes...mr. policeman is waiting with his gun to FORCE you. You could say Imminst is a "socialist" place because we all come here to socialize and help each other out. It is part of the connected human world. The beauty part is that no one is FORCED to join or stay. It is so ethical it makes my heart melt. It is much better the the violent deadly FORCE that "socialism" requires.

I fully realize that I got to where I am because of the help of literally thousands and thousands of people both directly and indirectly. They helped me out of their own free will and I help other people because I WANT to help....not because I am forced to. Socialists define a set of actions that are "correct", like priests in the church, and then they force everyone to obey. I don't like it. Why can't we just live by the golden rule? Why can't we just live and let live?


There are certain responsibilities that come with living in a civil society. One of these things is to take care of those who cannot or will not take care of themselves. Now, that is a philosophical argument, and obviously you do not agree with it and that's fine. But if you look at every modern First World country they are all based on this premise, like it or not.

You are forced to pay taxes, you are forced to stop at a red light, you are forced into military service (sometimes). It's part of what makes society work. If you don't like it you can opt out of society and live in the woods but it is an important aspect of society.

I would also argue that you responsibilities and roll in society is far different than that of a message board. There are certain freedoms that we give up in order to gain the benefits of living in a society.

As for live and let live. You do realize that all the current problems the US is having are caused by previous attempts to try to force others to do what they want, rather than live and let live, right? I would argue that your international philosophy obviously doesn't follow what you personally believe as a nation, if a majority of people would agree with your viewpoint.

lastly. Why should I be forced to live by the golden rule? why shouldn't I live by Social Darwinism? It makes sense considering our human nature and all. It's all too convenient to keep the views that you espouse and then when something goes wrong and you cry for help and you get it because there is a social system out there to help people. If it wasn't there you would fall on your butt and be out of luck. I just cannot agree with such a selfish and self centered viewpoint. I mean, I'm selfish, I admit it, but I'm more than willing to pay a bit more (or less in the case of healthcare) if it means that we as a society benefit from the results.

#340 halcyondays

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 03:00 AM

Mitkat, I read survey taken last year whose results revealed that 68% of people in Quebec want a private option in their health care service. There were not totally rejecting the public system, but they wanted other options too.


You do realize that Americans pay over DOUBLE what Canadians pay per person for healthcare right? Public healthcare is a net benefit for everyone, kind of like everyone paying for police and fire protection. It also means everyone gets the same level of healthcare. The only issue we have in Canada is wait times, which could be solved by more doctors. hiring more doctors is cheaper for everyone vs switching to a two tiered or private healthcare system. I just don't see the benefits of a private healthcare system unless you are rich and don't have to wait in line. I am all for fairness, I don't believe that the rich should be treated any different then the poor, especially when it comes to things like healthcare. But then I guess I'm just a dirty Socialist, but I'm not the only one., and I guess we will see what happens in the end if this whole transhumanism thing pans out.

#341 kgmax

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 03:24 AM

Where is the motive? Why do people go into science? Just to make a buck? If that were the case everyone would be business owners and CEOs.


That is just illogical. Not everyone would be Business owners and CEOs. I have been a business owner and it did not make me rich. My uncle on the other hand has a very nice lifestyle from a business.
Just because america pays its doctors outrageous money does not mean that everyone will become a doctor, it means that the best will become doctors. The smartest follow the money, the most intelligent and driven follow the money. It is human nature and a benefit of capitalism.
Canada would not have the medicines to give out if it were not for capitalism.
Canadians who can afford it come to america when they need the best healthcare, not the cheapest.

You seem to be confusing a pure free market with capitalism. Pure free market is unrealistic. There is no perfection, there has never and is not currently a perfect isolated society. Norway and Sweden are indeed great places to live (statistically speaking) but realistically they would be backwards shitholes if not for the advances that capitalism have made.
Perhaps everyone would have free bloodletting, leaches and trephination but that is about it.

#342 halcyondays

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 05:59 AM

Where is the motive? Why do people go into science? Just to make a buck? If that were the case everyone would be business owners and CEOs.


That is just illogical. Not everyone would be Business owners and CEOs. I have been a business owner and it did not make me rich. My uncle on the other hand has a very nice lifestyle from a business.
Just because america pays its doctors outrageous money does not mean that everyone will become a doctor, it means that the best will become doctors. The smartest follow the money, the most intelligent and driven follow the money. It is human nature and a benefit of capitalism.
Canada would not have the medicines to give out if it were not for capitalism.
Canadians who can afford it come to america when they need the best healthcare, not the cheapest.

You seem to be confusing a pure free market with capitalism. Pure free market is unrealistic. There is no perfection, there has never and is not currently a perfect isolated society. Norway and Sweden are indeed great places to live (statistically speaking) but realistically they would be backwards shitholes if not for the advances that capitalism have made.
Perhaps everyone would have free bloodletting, leaches and trephination but that is about it.

What I'm saying is that Capitalism as it now stands is archaic and is actually destructive socially. It needs to be reformed. It played its part since the industrial revolution but now it's time to put it to rest and come up with a new paradigm.

#343 mitkat

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 08:11 AM

Canadians who can afford it come to america when they need the best healthcare, not the cheapest.


This is total nonsense. Let's please not turn this into a national debate, because there's no comparison in regards to health care. Firstly, Canadians who can afford it come to America when they want something done really fast - MRIs are a perfect example, as there have been waiting lists. It's not because it's superior. Secondly, the American medical system is incredibly flawed if "common" people can't even see a physician without shelling out ridiculous amounts of $$$$$, among other reasons. I have never had to worry about paying a medical bill.

The smartest follow the money, the most intelligent and driven follow the money. It is human nature and a benefit of capitalism.


Come on...so would someone be unintelligent for not pursuing the highest income profession?

#344 Mind

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 12:17 PM

As for live and let live. You do realize that all the current problems the US is having are caused by previous attempts to try to force others to do what they want, rather than live and let live, right? I would argue that your international philosophy obviously doesn't follow what you personally believe as a nation, if a majority of people would agree with your viewpoint.


I voted for Badnarik in the last election. As a libertarian, the government rarely represents my philosophy.



It makes sense considering our human nature and all. It's all too convenient to keep the views that you espouse and then when something goes wrong and you cry for help and you get it because there is a social system out there to help people. If it wasn't there you would fall on your butt and be out of luck. I just cannot agree with such a selfish and self centered viewpoint.


I could argue that socialism is selfish too. Instead of actually lending a hand to people in trouble, it seems socialists are always just creating government programs to help. They are just shifting their social obligations to government workers. I know you don't like to hear it that way, but neither do I like the premise that libertarians are greedy bastards. I know a lot of libertarian folks and they are all wonderful members of society. All of them are good members of their community. They volunteer, they give to charity, support the arts, etc. and all kinds of other great stuff. Once I get to know people, no matter if they are socialist, libertarian, or republican, or green, or whatever I find they are mostly nice people and care about others.

Anyway, you made some good points that there has never been any truly free markets in the history of the world. There have always been different levels of management over people's actions. You must admit that sometimes this "management" has gotten out of control. Some tyrants have killed millions of people to implement their view. I think we should be guarded against repeating these mistakes of the past and we should not concentrate too much power in a central authority. Although, I suspect the danger of falling under the boot heel of a tyrannical government is less nowadays because the quality of information and communication is getting better.

What do you think about this? It seems that with rise of global commerce that international public corporations are becoming more like social organizations. They have to follow the laws of many different countries and provide many different types of services. They are also "owned" by millions of people from many different cultures. Sometimes the stockholders actually vote to make corporations more "socially" responsible (whatever that means...it means different things to different people). I know that many socialists think that corporations are the most evil, vile, deadly, despicable, ruthless, and worthless things in the entire universe, but I seem them as a vehicle toward a more connected world. They are part of the free market/socialist combination that has always been present. They will also be part of the progress that leads to transhumanism, or singularity, or nanotech...

#345 halcyondays

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Posted 12 November 2006 - 01:45 AM

As for live and let live. You do realize that all the current problems the US is having are caused by previous attempts to try to force others to do what they want, rather than live and let live, right? I would argue that your international philosophy obviously doesn't follow what you personally believe as a nation, if a majority of people would agree with your viewpoint.


I voted for Badnarik in the last election. As a libertarian, the government rarely represents my philosophy.

I could argue that socialism is selfish too. Instead of actually lending a hand to people in trouble, it seems socialists are always just creating government programs to help. They are just shifting their social obligations to government workers. I know you don't like to hear it that way, but neither do I like the premise that libertarians are greedy bastards. I know a lot of libertarian folks and they are all wonderful members of society. All of them are good members of their community. They volunteer, they give to charity, support the arts, etc. and all kinds of other great stuff. Once I get to know people, no matter if they are socialist, libertarian, or republican, or green, or whatever I find they are mostly nice people and care about others.

You could argue that it's selfish but I believe you would be wrong. Those government programs help real people, and they reach far more people then any single person can do who lends a helping hand. I believe that we do have a social obligation to help others, and it isn't government workers, it's anyone who works.

There are countless examples of horrible people who do horrible things but still have loving families, so how do you judge those people? How do you judge the Business person who lays off 20,000 workers to increase profits for shareholders by 50 million? How many of those people laid off will turn to drugs, alcohol, crime. How many families will go hungry, how many marriages will be broken up over making the rich just a little bit richer? You see where I'm going with this? Your actions towards those you don't' know are more indicative of the kind of person you really are then to those you do know.

Anyway, you made some good points that there has never been any truly free markets in the history of the world. There have always been different levels of management over people's actions. You must admit that sometimes this "management" has gotten out of control. Some tyrants have killed millions of people to implement their view. I think we should be guarded against repeating these mistakes of the past and we should not concentrate too much power in a central authority. Although, I suspect the danger of falling under the boot heel of a tyrannical government is less nowadays because the quality of information and communication is getting better.

I would argue that it is communication that has made it easier to manipulate the people, not harder. Especially if that media is controlled by people who support such a system. Just look at fox news. Their purpose is to put the Republicans in a good light, period. They are not critical of the Republican party, and they gloss over, or outright lie about the corruption in the Party. They didn't mention the Ted Haggard incident, but focused on John Kerry and his botched joke like it was the second coming of Christ. The mainstream media has made it so easy to manipulate the people, and it is easy to manipulate the people, without them even knowing it. There are countless examples of this sort of thing. Just look at Commercials, they work. Corporations wouldn't spend hundreds of millions of dollars on them if they didn't. Any Democracy could easily transform into an authoritarian regime. Just look at Britain and their surveillance society. All it takes is someone in power with the will to use that infrastructure to control everyone. It would be so easy to implement a 1984 society in Britain, they are 2/3 the way there already.

I would argue that the less a people are involved in the democratic process the more likely they are to slip into totalitarianism. Just look at the voter turnout in the US. It's at or under 50%. The system is set up in such a way that those in power can redistrict a state to try and secure an advantage in elections, one that is essentially permanent. Republicans did this in Texas and in several other States. Any system where a political party can do something like that is seriously broken IMO. We see time and time again that governments that have a political process based on popular votes vs proportional representation have 75%+ voter turnout. A society like that is far more difficult to control because the people have a real voice and real power to make a difference.

What do you think about this? It seems that with rise of global commerce that international public corporations are becoming more like social organizations. They have to follow the laws of many different countries and provide many different types of services. They are also "owned" by millions of people from many different cultures. Sometimes the stockholders actually vote to make corporations more "socially" responsible (whatever that means...it means different things to different people). I know that many socialists think that corporations are the most evil, vile, deadly, despicable, ruthless, and worthless things in the entire universe, but I seem them as a vehicle toward a more connected world. They are part of the free market/socialist combination that has always been present. They will also be part of the progress that leads to transhumanism, or singularity, or nanotech...


Corporations as an entity exist to make profit for shareholders. Most shareholders make very little money, it is only a few rich shareholders that make any real money. I won't say that corporations are all evil, but they are certainly amoral. They won't do anything to benefit others unless they profit from it, or unless they are forced to do so through laws. Of course they also lobby government to get laws that favour them, so you could argue that they do the minimum required to put a positive outlook on their company and little else. I think you should watch the documentary "The Corporation". It really lays out what is wrong with corporations. I'll mention the Cancer example again, where a corporation didn't release a drug that cured a rare form of cancer that only 600 or so people have in the US because they wouldn't make back their initial investment on the product. The government should step in and either force the corporation to produce the drug, or the government should take the drug from the corporation and produce it themselves. Saving lives should take precedence over making money, end of story. As a transhumanist I don't know how you could see it any other way.

Ultimately I see a transhumanist society as being a true democracy. If everyone is connected through the internet, and everyone is enhanced so that they can focus on multiple events going on at the same time then you could focus part of your attention completely on something like voting for specific laws and regulations. All it would take is a thought. That would be a true democratic society and a true free society. Who knows when that will happen, but I'm sure that it will happen one way or another (either here on earth or on colonies in space).

#346 vortexentity

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Posted 12 November 2006 - 05:59 PM

I won't say that corporations are all evil, but they are certainly amoral. They won't do anything to benefit others unless they profit from it, or unless they are forced to do so through laws.


I beg to differ. People use their finaicial clout to shape business all the time. A good example is Social Funds

Social progress does not require government. In fact grassroot movements produce more profound social changes and are most often made up of people who care and will not wait for a government response or program to fix the problem.

Social responsibility is best kept in the private sector. It can move much quicker to respond to changing needs of society if kept out of the hands of the government. Large private funds that keep their capital and spend their dividends on social systems do not require tax funding in order to provide a service. In this way the wealth is preserved. No taxes are required and the fund is managed to be both social in its delivery of services, and responsible in the use of the capital they manage.

This is far better then tax and spend socialism.

#347 rjws

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Posted 12 November 2006 - 11:43 PM

Capitalism is best for the current system but when labor becomes outdated I think socialism will win

#348 halcyondays

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 12:43 AM

I beg to differ. People use their finaicial clout to shape business all the time. A good example is Social Funds

Social progress does not require government. In fact grassroot movements produce more profound social changes and are most often made up of people who care and will not wait for a government response or program to fix the problem.

Social responsibility is best kept in the private sector. It can move much quicker to respond to changing needs of society if kept out of the hands of the government. Large private funds that keep their capital and spend their dividends on social systems do not require tax funding in order to provide a service. In this way the wealth is preserved. No taxes are required and the fund is managed to be both social in its delivery of services, and responsible in the use of the capital they manage.

This is far better then tax and spend socialism.


There are some exceptions to the rule, but in most cases it is purely a PR thing.

#349 vortexentity

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 01:14 AM

These arguments are all constrained to the present in application. The future will of course create another entire paradigm which these old systems might simply not work and they will be discarded as not fitting the needs of the then human or transhuman race. When nanotechnology come to fruition we will likely see a collapse of industrial nations as predicted by several scholarly works.

These are not the present and we must of course use the means presently at our disposal to effect the changes we need to accomplish. One such system that is very effective in India and several other developing nations is what is called micro-capital. These are very small loans to start a small business. It is small business that is the backbone of a capitalist economy. The large corporations are often much more socialist in their inner workings and are not pure capitalist institutions at all. They depend on corporate charity, huge tax breaks, government bailouts, huge loans that go unpaid some times, and of course they bribe, government officials, pollute the land and are very reluctant to clean up their mess and use government funds for that as well.

The big corporations are as far from capitalism as Stalin was. They are often elitist, uncaring and over privilaged. True capitalist think very little is good about these mega-corps.

Corporatism is often interested in protection by legislation and use their insider status to win huge contracts from poliitical figures that they bribed long before they held office and in fact helped to put them in positions to help them out.

The clear distinction between pure Capitalist and Elitist Corporatist should be defined in this discussion in order to make clear just how distant the two points of view truely are. In fact I would say that Elitist Corporatist are closer to socialist than to capitalist.

#350 halcyondays

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 02:25 AM

These arguments are all constrained to the present in application. The future will of course create another entire paradigm which these old systems might simply not work and they will be discarded as not fitting the needs of the then human or transhuman race. When nanotechnology come to fruition we will likely see a collapse of industrial nations as predicted by several scholarly works.

These are not the present and we must of course use the means presently at our disposal to effect the changes we need to accomplish. One such system that is very effective in India and several other developing nations is what is called micro-capital. These are very small loans to start a small business. It is small business that is the backbone of a capitalist economy. The large corporations are often much more socialist in their inner workings and are not pure capitalist institutions at all. They depend on corporate charity, huge tax breaks, government bailouts, huge loans that go unpaid some times, and of course they bribe, government officials, pollute the land and are very reluctant to clean up their mess and use government funds for that as well.

The big corporations are as far from capitalism as Stalin was. They are often elitist, uncaring and over privilaged. True capitalist think very little is good about these mega-corps.

Corporatism is often interested in protection by legislation and use their insider status to win huge contracts from poliitical figures that they bribed long before they held office and in fact helped to put them in positions to help them out.

The clear distinction between pure Capitalist and Elitist Corporatist should be defined in this discussion in order to make clear just how distant the two points of view truely are. In fact I would say that Elitist Corporatist are closer to socialist than to capitalist.


I think that True Capitalism is as far out of reach as is true Communism. Economics always leaves out factors that don't fit with their models. I have no doubt that corporations and business in general will eventually die off. I see it replaced with a collective pool of information where people share information in a community for the benefit of everyone. This isn't near term, we are talking hundreds of years, but it could be sooner.

What happens to our economic models when we can create whatever we need for essentially free using nanotechnology? What stops someone from sharing information on a new processor, or some other product on the internet and other people downloading and then using their nanobots creating that product without paying for it? What happens when everyone is enhanced intellectually? I think that our entire way of life will change from survival and profit, to a knowledge based society where everyone works towards gaining new knowledge and sharing that knowledge to help increase the total knowledge even more. I don't think we can base future predictions of what the economy will be like on anything that exists today.

In the end we will work, but we will do what we like, not to survive, but to do something that gives us enjoyment. When you are enhanced mentally, I don't think sitting around watching tv will satisfy most people. I know that it doesn't satisfy me right now.

#351 AaronCW

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 03:23 AM

In Canada, we have a national health care system. I have not encountered a single person who has any sort of qualms with this (maybe some libertarians, I wouldn't know). The policemen wouldn't come and get you, because it's just a normal taxation, and everybody pays their taxes, right? ;) I don't know anyone who has had teeth falling out of their head, for instance, or collapsing sick in a poor area because they can't afford to go see the doctor to get prescribed antibiotics (not that they could afford them anyways). Is this such a huge price to pay? Is thsi infringing on personal right so much? I feel universal healthcare is an incredibly ethical venture.


Socialized (Universal) healthcare spells the end of a number of different things;

1. The progression of medical technology (as will happen to any technology when it is removed from the free market).

2. The end of choice in healthcare; you take what the state decides to give you (and don't pretend that your votes are going to influence this).

3. Government subsidies to any industry will necessarily cause inflation and increased healthcare costs.

4. This one goes without saying; Individual Rights.

I do not currently have healthcare, and I look forward to the day that I can afford it. At the same time I greatly fear the prospect of socialized healthcare in the US as a 'solution' to the broken healthcare system created by the government (through the FDA, primarily). When I can afford healthcare I will demand a level of service that no system of socialized healthcare could hope to meet.

#352 AaronCW

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 04:06 AM

There are a multitude of factors that have led to the success of the USA, not the least of which includes geography. Also, you can have a large booming economy and still have massive poverty. Economic indicators are not the only thing by which you should judge a Countries "success" on. It is obvious to me that you are a Free Market proponent and I am not, so we can agree to disagree on that point. I believe that Countries like Norway and Sweden are the best economic models to follow, and the proof is in the statistics, they are the top countries to live in, in the world. I know Americans like to be patriotic, but I think that gets in the way of logic and reason sometimes.

As for the decrease in the purchasing power of people in the US. That can be directly tied to Businesses not matching employee pay raises to rising inflation. There has been a massive shift of wealth from the middle class to the rich because of this. It's why you need to parents working in order to keep a middle class lifestyle, to own a house, two cars, 2.5 kids, and a dog. The American dream has been steadily pulling away from the reach of an increasing number of people because of the selfishness of Corporations. Any Economic system based on infinite profits in a finite world is seriously broken.


Yes, you can maintain the appearance of a healthy economy and still have massive poverty, if the government subsidizes it!!!

What is the cause of inflation? Government spending in unproductive ventures. Also, the concept of a 'finite' world is just silly, as it is obviously not referring to natural resources. Wealth is created through human effort, and can only be acheived by private individuals. Wealth is infinite.

I disagree. A free market economy would be a disaster for the world. It would create massive economic and social inequality, even more so than exists now. There is no truly Free Market society in the world. Every Country has some aspect of Socialism and Government control over the economy. If they didn't the system would be a mess. You honestly think there is a demand for mature nanotechnology, or for life extension technology? For most people it's a pipe dream, it's not possible, not in the next 100 years. So why should the federal government give any money to corporations that are going to fund this type of research? The government gives grants all the time to high tech companies and they don't get that money back. According to your thinking the government shouldn't be funding anyone. Or if you agree that it's ok to fund some corporations and not others. If you think that the government can't push technological progress just look at the Atomic Bomb, or landing a Man on the Moon. You do not need economic competition to drive technological progress.


No absolutely free market society has ever existed in the world, correct. This closest we have come to this ideal is the first 150 years of the US; a period of unprecedented, unimagined economic growth and an increase in the general standard of living for all levels of society (something which has never happened in human history).

The scientific acheivements that have been financed by the government were inappropriate, regardless of their success. Such superfluous adventures as putting a man on the moon would not happen unless there was a market demand for it. When there is a need for such technologies necessary for space travel they will be financed privately.

Where is the motive? Why do people go into science? Just to make a buck? If that were the case everyone would be business owners and CEOs. A Socialist government has every reason to want to improve the lives of its citizens. I think you are confusing a Communist Dictatorship with true Communism and Socialism. Your ideas of Socialism are stuck in the Cold War era, and the propaganda thrown about by both sides. China is a Communist goverment, and they are pushing for massive technological development, militarily and otherwise.

That entire statement just reeks of Cold War era thinking and the inability to be objective when looking at Socialism. Socialism doesn't mean a Dictatorship, it doesn't mean no private ownership. It doesn't mean a lack of scientific innovation. I will grant you that Capitalism has helped technology to grow quicker in the first world because it appeals to human selfishness and greed. But it isn't the only way, which is my point. Not that one way or the other is better, but that you can have technological developments that equal those under Capitalism in a Communist State.


Everyone would be business owners and CEOs rather than go into science? This is quite an admission of your total ignorance of economics.

All Communist countries are dictatorships, whether the dictator is an individual, a party, or 'society'. It is a totalitarian state by necessity. How else could it function? And of course communist countries are scrambling to force their scientists to develop technologies (this approach has massive limitations; you cannot force people to have ideas) that will enable them to maintain control over their populations.

A morality that considers the 'we' as more important than the 'me' is incompatible with individual rights, with freedom, and thus with Capitalism. This is the morality of altruism, it is a remnant of religious philosophy, and it is utterly irrational.

Your understanding of economics is extremely misguided. Yes, as technology progresses (as it will and can only under Capitalism) goods will become cheaper and manual labor will become less valuable. Money does not lose it's value when material products become cheap, it gains value.


Since when is a corporation a "me"? You honestly arguing that a corporation is doing a moral good when they don't produce a drug that cures a disease because not enough people have the disease? I would argue that the "we" is equality important as the "me". It is because we are not completely selfish beings, because we look out for those who are weaker that we are where we are today. What you are essentially arguing is social Darwinism which is just an excuse to be selfish when you don't stand to benefit directly from the investment. You completely ignore the societal impact that your investment has, which in the longterm benefits you and everyone else. When people starting viewing the entire human race as they view their immediate family then we will be on the path to a better world.

As for my understanding of economics. I only took first year macro and micro economics in University, so I guess my understanding of economics isn't as good as yours. I suppose you were an economics major? I would say my understanding of basic economics is very strong, and I have no trouble understanding your viewpoint. But I completely disagree with it. I think you need to look at the internet as a model for future economic communities. I am arguing that money will no longer be a currency, that physical "things" will no longer hold any real value. It will be knowledge that will be "bought and sold", or rather traded between one another for more knowledge. Well, that is one scenario. Another scenario is a society in which knowledge is freely traded over networks between people for the sake of increasing knowledge. I think you are being a little parochial when it comes to how much society is going to change in the future with the introduction of desktop nanofactories and mature nanotechnology. I think you need to look to Torrent sites as an example of a possible future. Except that the torrents are molecular designs for products and once the information is purchased by one person it can be copied and downloaded by billions of people. Our current economic system will not hold up to these future technologies, there will be massive changes.

Lastly, I disagree that capitalism is the only thing that drives technology. the USSR was Communist when it launched the first satellite into space, they also create many other technologies that were unique and innovative. You do not need a free market economy to drive technological development, this is a fact. Now, I'm not arguing one way or the other which is better, or that it has to be either one or the other. I just believe that our current economic system is far from perfect and that it will have to change in the future if we are to have a fair and just society.


Are you suggesting that people will be building houses and feeding their families with ideas traded on internet markets? Either this or you resorting to the same approach taken by another poster on a different topic (http://www.imminst.o...20).

Your vision of a 'fair and just society', not to mention political freedom, is exactly what is impossible under a socialized or Communist government/economy. Social Darwinism is an excuse for abusing government power. Selfishness (properly defined as self-concern with ones own interests) is a moral virtue. Altuism (the doctrine which you have been consistently advocating) is both irrational is impossible; it is hypocritical to advocate such a doctrine.

#353 mitkat

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 06:41 AM

Socialized (Universal) healthcare spells the end of a number of different things;

1. The progression of medical technology (as will happen to any technology when it is removed from the free market).

2. The end of choice in healthcare; you take what the state decides to give you (and don't pretend that your votes are going to influence this).

3. Government subsidies to any industry will necessarily cause inflation and increased healthcare costs.

4. This one goes without saying; Individual Rights.

I do not currently have healthcare, and I look forward to the day that I can afford it. At the same time I greatly fear the prospect of socialized healthcare in the US as a 'solution' to the broken healthcare system created by the government (through the FDA, primarily).



1) Can you please point me to evidence of socialized healthcare offering inferior technology and/or lagging behind private healthcare systems at this point in time?

2) Choice? That's a jaded view of democracy, and it's awful pessimistic to assume that the gov't would install sub-par healthcare.

3) That's fair. However I believe healthcare is something worth investing in and dealing with some inflated costs, if that's what you're getting at.

4) One of my personal rights as a citizen of my country is full access to healthcare, along with every other citizen.

When I can afford healthcare I will demand a level of service that no system of socialized healthcare could hope to meet.


Okay, that's neat. Keep shooting for the stars, Donald Trump. ;) I assume, out of realism, that you are talking about some sort of future nanotechnology biznass disrupting the worldwide economy and "money" in general? If we all become that wealthy, I see no reason at all to continue with private healthcare in non-universal systems.

edit: not more mitkat latenight posting

Edited by mitkat, 16 November 2006 - 07:26 AM.


#354 biknut

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 07:06 AM

"I do not currently have healthcare, and I look forward to the day that I can afford it. At the same time I greatly fear the prospect of socialized healthcare in the US as a 'solution' to the broken healthcare system created by the government (through the FDA, primarily)."

This pretty much sums it up for me too, but not really for the previous reasons.
Even if the service was crappy it would be better than what I have now. My main problem is paying for it. I can't afford it now. I don't think government health care would be any cheaper but I wouldn't have any choice except to pay. It probably would even cost more because if everyone can go to the doctor for "free" they'll be going more often.

#355 drus

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 07:04 PM

I'm an Egalitarian-Techno-Utopian-Libertarian-Socialist-Transhumanist, if you can wrap your mind around that!

Edited by drus, 16 November 2006 - 10:27 PM.


#356 vortexentity

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Posted 16 November 2006 - 07:11 PM

The link below is a story that is very applicable to this discourse on the Welfare State Vs Capitalism.

It is called: The Wild and Free Pigs of the Okefenokee Swamp

This is a must read for anyone interested in this thread.

#357 halcyondays

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 06:24 AM

Yes, you can maintain the appearance of a healthy economy and still have massive poverty, if the government subsidizes it!!!

What is the cause of inflation? Government spending in unproductive ventures. Also, the concept of a 'finite' world is just silly, as it is obviously not referring to natural resources. Wealth is created through human effort, and can only be acheived by private individuals. Wealth is infinite.


No, you can have the appearance of a healthy economy if the rich are doing well, they bring up then overall numbers making things look better on the outside. It has nothing to do with government subsidizing anyone.

No absolutely free market society has ever existed in the world, correct. This closest we have come to this ideal is the first 150 years of the US; a period of unprecedented, unimagined economic growth and an increase in the general standard of living for all levels of society (something which has never happened in human history).

The scientific acheivements that have been financed by the government were inappropriate, regardless of their success. Such superfluous adventures as putting a man on the moon would not happen unless there was a market demand for it. When there is a need for such technologies necessary for space travel they will be financed privately.


I would argue that the US isn't the only country to achieve economic success, and these other countries do not have the same model. Look at the Nordic countries. They constantly have the best ratings for their economies and societies in terms of health not size. Size isn't everything, quality is also important. You have economic growth in all Industrialized nations and they all don't follow the US model in terms of social welfare.

I also don't agree with you that science funded by the government is inappropriate, but that is just a philosophical disagreement and neither of us is right or wrong on the matter.

Everyone would be business owners and CEOs rather than go into science? This is quite an admission of your total ignorance of economics.

All Communist countries are dictatorships, whether the dictator is an individual, a party, or 'society'. It is a totalitarian state by necessity. How else could it function? And of course communist countries are scrambling to force their scientists to develop technologies (this approach has massive limitations; you cannot force people to have ideas) that will enable them to maintain control over their populations.

My point was that if people were driven just by money they would all go into business. That isn't the case.

As for all Communist countries are dictatorships. I can argue that the US is a dictatorship too, it's run by the richest 1% of people and they are the ones with the true power. They manipulate everyone else to make them docile and apathetic about their lives so they don't make waves while they get on with getting richer.

I would also argue that any society needs some form of control, so all societies are dictatorial if you want to really get into it. They all limit what you can and cannot do in order to keep peace and try to produce a society that is relatively fair and free.

Are you suggesting that people will be building houses and feeding their families with ideas traded on internet markets? Either this or you resorting to the same approach taken by another poster on a different topic (http://www.imminst.o...20).

Your vision of a 'fair and just society', not to mention political freedom, is exactly what is impossible under a socialized or Communist government/economy. Social Darwinism is an excuse for abusing government power. Selfishness (properly defined as self-concern with ones own interests) is a moral virtue. Altuism (the doctrine which you have been consistently advocating) is both irrational is impossible; it is hypocritical to advocate such a doctrine.


No, I'm suggesting they won't need money once they have a nanofactory that can produce whatever they need or want for their family without needing any extra money. The trade of ideas over something like the internet would come about as it does in the open source community.

My vision of a fair society is so far from Social Darwinism it's not even funny. If anything proponents of a free market economy are the supporters of Social Darwinism. I would also argue that Selfishness is not a moral virtue and that it is only a good thing as long as you are not hurting other people. When you lay 20,000 people off to make another 50 million dollars in stock options that isn't a moral virtue in my mind. Altruism is what society is all about. Helping each other to help yourself. it's supposed to be the best mix of selfishness and altruism. Countries like Canada and even more so Norway and Sweden are examples were the selfish nature of humans and the altruism that makes societies work for everyone come together.

#358 drus

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 06:10 PM

Halcyondays, well said, I hear ya and completely agree, here, here!

#359 kgmax

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 11:43 PM

No, I'm suggesting they won't need money once they have a nanofactory that can produce whatever they need or want for their family without needing any extra money. The trade of ideas over something like the internet would come about as it does in the open source community.


Nanofactory's are currently a fantasy. I thought we were dealing with reality and the "here & now".

If you are talking about society in the post singularity (which IMHOP nanofactories represent) then sure. Capitalism is not a realistic economic option. Socialism is not the answer at that time either, but a closer proximation as to what would be needed.

I would also argue that Selfishness is not a moral virtue and that it is only a good thing as long as you are not hurting other people. When you lay 20,000 people off to make another 50 million dollars in stock options that isn't a moral virtue in my mind.


Those are not reasonable numbers in my estimate. If you were to lay off 20,000 employees each making an average of 30,000 dollars you would save 600,000,000
in wages. If the only way to save the company were to cut costs (therefore steadying the stock prices) by laying off 20k employees why not do it. The only option might be to close your doors to strong competition therefore laying off 100,000 employees. Sometimes businesses have to make hard decisions.
I do not think that most businesses are ran properly nowadays. But they are trying to compete in a global market. The governments have a lot to do with that.

Just my 600,000,000 cents though.

#360 kgmax

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 11:49 PM

Just because I feel like ranting. This is the reason that I feel the american auto manufacturers have screwed middle america. (of course middle america helped screw itself) the unions refused to take pay cuts. The manufacturers could not keep up with the competition from foreign companies. US companies closed the doors and shipped the labor overseas. US companies are just starting to recover from the foolishness of the unions and the forced altruism of the big 3.




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