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Socialists Vs. Capitalists


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#211 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 17 November 2002 - 08:35 PM

  About the middle managment people; you are talking about the transition of capitalist to socialist which would be hard if conservative America ever gave it a try. First you would have to find a salary
                     that every working person in America would be happy living with, but would not be so much as to border on inflation, then you would have to redesign medicare and education, and a whole lot o'
                     stuff about which I will explain later...



Hey Mangala, after reading all the posts, I'm confident that you did not get to this yet. I'm going to be addressing these issues soon. I would love to hear how you would redesign medicare and education, I got some novel ideas of my own.

#212 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 17 November 2002 - 08:46 PM

I cannot respond to everyone right now
                     and seeing as I'm the only Socialist here I guess I'll have to eventually.



Hey, it's hard being the only one supporting a position. I think we all respect that. ;)

#213 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 17 November 2002 - 09:22 PM

  Capitalism is Horrible.
                     Since the beginning of time man has always felt the need to have more things, to be able to get stuff done for him that he doesn't feel like doing.


Permit me to recapitulate some well-known facts. While under precapitalistic conditions superior men were the masters on whom the masses of the inferior had to attend, under capitalism the more gifted and more able have no means to profit from their superiority other than to serve to the best of their abilities the wishes of the majority and even the less gifted. In the market economic power is vested in the consumers. They ultimately determine, by their buying or abstention from buying, what should be produced, by whom and how, of what quality and in what quantity. The entrepreneurs, capitalists, and landowners who fail to satisfy in the best possible and cheapest way the most urgent of the not yet satisfied wishes of the consumers are forced to go out of business and forfeit their preferred position. In business offices and in laboratories the keenest minds are busy fructifying the most complex achievements of scientific research for the production of ever better implements and gadgets for people who have no inkling of the theories that make the fabrication of such things possible. The bigger an enterprise is, the more is it forced to adjust its production to the changing whims and fancies of the masses, its masters. One of the fundamental principle of capitalism is mass production to supply the masses. It is the patronage of the masses that make enterprises grow big. The common man is supreme in the market economy. He is the customer who “is always right.”


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#214 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 17 November 2002 - 10:20 PM

                   My question to you would be which institution do you favor using force, a dictatorial company or a democratically elected government?

                     OR would you like my third option, democratically checked government and economics?



I do not favor any of these institutions using force, that's why I am a libertarian. Currently, companies, absent government force, have no real power. Yor third option holds no interest to me, anymore than the first two.

In the political sphere, representative government is the corollary of the supremacy of the consumers in the market. Office-holders depend on the voters as entrepreneurs and investors depend on the consumers. The same historical process that substituted the capitalistic mode of production for precapitalistic methods substituted popular government-democracy-for royal absolutism and other forms of government by the few. And wherever the market economy is superseded by socialism, autocracy makes a comeback. It does not matter whether the socialist or communist despotism is camouflaged by the use of aliases like “dictatorship of the proletariat or people’s democracy” or “Führer principle.” It always amounts to a subjection of the many to the few.

It is hardly possible to misconstrue more thoroughly the state of affairs prevailing in capitalistic society than by calling the capitalists and entrepreneurs a “ruling” class intent upon “exploiting” the masses of decent men. We will not raise the question of how the men who under capitalism are in business would have tried to take advantage of their superior talents in any other thinkable organization of production. Under capitalism they are vying with one another in serving the masses. All their thoughts aim at perfecting the methods of supplying the consumers.


#215 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 17 November 2002 - 10:22 PM

What has multiplied the “productivity of labor” is not some degree of effort on the part of manual workers, but the accumulation of capital by the savers and its reasonable employment by the entrepreneurs. Technological inventions would
have remained useless trivia if the capital required for their utilization had not been previously accumulated by thrift. Man could not survive as a human being without manual labor. However, what elevates him above the beasts is not manual labor and the performance of routine jobs, but speculation, foresight that provides for the needs of the always uncertain future. The characteristic mark of production is that it is behavior directed by the mind. This fact cannot be conjured away by a semantics for which the word “labor” signifies only manual labor.

#216 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 17 November 2002 - 10:33 PM

                          QUOTE
                           Socialists really do want to force the strong, the wealthy and the able to relinquish the fruits of their mental labor.



                  Mangala,   Well force is not the right word,



If force is not the right word to use, then what word would you use. You want the wealthy to give up wealth and future wealth for equal incomes. Those of us who reject this idea and will not do so voluntarily, you will have to use force. What other word would you use to substitute this most accurate term.


#217 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 18 November 2002 - 02:10 AM

I argue that a minimal state, limited to the narrow functions of protection against force, theft, and fraud, enforcement of contracts, and such, is justified; and that any more extensive state will violate persons’ rights not to be forced to do certain things.

If you seek to justify a more extensive state Mangala, you will be compelled to address my following arguments.


The minimal State is the most extensive state that can be justified. Any state more extensive violates people’s rights. Yet, you have put forth reasons purporting to justify a more extensive state. It is impossible within the compass of this post to examine all the reasons why I believe you are wrong. Therefore, I shall focus upon a generally acknowledged and most weighty and influential reason precisely wherein you seem to fail. In this post I shall consider the claim that a more extensive state is justified, because it is according to you necessary (or the best instrument) to achieve distributive justice; in the future perhaps we shall take up diverse other claims.

The term “distributive justice” is not a neutral one. Hearing the term “distribution,” most people presume that some thing or mechanism uses some principle or criterion to give out a supply of things. Into this process of distributing shares some error may have crept. So it is an open question, at least, whether redistribution should take place; whether we should do again what has already been done once, though according to Mangala poorly. I say we are not in the position of children who have been given portions of pie by someone who now makes last minute adjustments to rectify careless cutting. There is no central distribution, no person or group entitled to control all the resources, jointly deciding how they are to be doled out. What each person gets, he gets from others who give to him in exchange for something, or as a gift. In a free society, diverse persons control different resources, and new holdings arise out of the voluntary exchanges and actions of persons. There is no more a distributing or distribution of shares than there is a distributing of mates in a society in which persons choose whom they shall marry. The total result is the product of many individual decisions which the different individuals involved are entitled to make.

We shall speak of people’s holdings; a principle of justice in holdings describes (part of) what justice tells us (requires) about holdings. I shall state first what I take to be the correct view about justice in holdings.

The subject of justice in holdings consists of three major parts. The first is the original acquisition of holdings, the appropriation of unheld things. This includes the issues of how unheld things may come to be held, the process, or processes, by which unheld things may come to be held, the things that may come to be held by these processes, the extent of what comes to be held by a particular process, and so on. We shall refer to the complicated truth about this topic, which we shall not formulate here, as the principle of justice in acquisition. The second issue concerns the transfer of holdings from one person to another. By what processes may a person transfer holdings to another? How may a person acquire a holding from another who holds it? Under this issue come general descriptions of voluntary exchange, and gifts. The complicated truth about this subject we shall call the principle of justice in transfer. (And we shall suppose it also includes principles governing how a person may divest himself of a holding, passing it into an unheld state.)

If the world were wholly just, the following inductive definition would exhaustively cover the subject of justice in holdings.

1. A person who acquires a holding in accordance with the principle of justice in acquisition is entitled to that holding.
2. A person who acquires a holding in accordance with the principle of justice in transfer, from someone else entitled to the holding, is entitled to the holding.
3. No one is entitled to a holding except by (repeated) applications of 1 and 2.

The complete principle of distributive justice would say simply that a distribution is just if everyone is entitled to the holdings they possess under the distribution. A distribution is just if it arises from another just distribution by legitimate means. The legitimate means of moving from one distribution to another are specified by the principle of justice in transfer. The legitimate first “moves” are specified by the principle of justice in acquisition. Whatever arises from a just situation by just steps is itself just. The means of change specified by the principle of justice in transfer preserve justice. As correct rules of inference are truth-preserving, and any conclusion deduced via repeated application of such rules from only true premisses is itself true, so the means of transition from one situation to another specified by the principle of justice in transfer are justice-preserving, and any situation actually arising from repeated transitions in accordance with the principle from a just situation is itself just. The parallel between justice-preserving transformations and truth-preserving transformations illuminates where it fails as well as where it holds. That a conclusion could have been deduced by truth-preserving means from premisses that are true suffices to show its truth. That from a just situation a situation could have arisen via justice-preserving means does not suffice to show its justice. The fact that a thief s victims voluntarily could have presented him with gifts does not entitle the thief to his ill-gotten gains. Justice in holdings is historical, it depends upon what actually has happened.

Not all actual situations are generated in accordance with the two principles of justice in holdings: the principle of justice in acquisition and the principle of justice in transfer. Some people steal from others, or defraud them, or enslave them, seizing their product and preventing them from living as they choose, or forcibly exclude others from competing in exchanges. None of these are permissible modes of transition from one situation to another. And some persons acquire holdings by means not sanctioned by the principle of justice in acquisition.

#218 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 18 November 2002 - 02:22 AM

I work when the sun rises; I retreat when the sun sets.
I dig the well for water; I plow the field for food:
What use do I have for the emperor’s power!

Lao-tzu

#219 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 18 November 2002 - 04:52 AM

The Constitution is only 1200 words long, and if you haven't read it lately you really should because it's amazing. About 95% of what the federal government is doing today is not authorized by the Constitution. This is a serious problem because without some clear limitation on what the central government can do, it means they'll do whatever they can get away with. And we know what sort of consequences that had historically. That's the reason why the colonies fought for independence in the first place, because without some sort of ground rules followed by the central government, you end up with tyranny.

#220 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 18 November 2002 - 05:29 AM

                So what am I? I am a socialist, and I am damn proud. I hate communists, I hate fascists, I hate fundamentalists and most of all I despise Capitalists.

                     So what massive changes do I want? Listen:

                     2) Democratic, governmental control of all fields of business


Have you ever seen a company that is government controlled and is under the jurisdiction of a Social Democracy. How do you know a company fueled by the need to get people
                     the best possible product won't sell out profit driven companies 2 to 1? I say, stop comparing the ideals I've presented to Stalinist Russia.


When people talk about socialism they mean that the government, rather than the individual, owns the means of production. There's a very big difference between the people or the population (the citizens of the country) and the federal government. The government promotes its own interests, mainly in increasing its power and the money available to it. Its interests are not necessarily those of individual people at all.

It's very simple to see why governments at all levels, federal, state and local, are out of control, but particularly the federal government. They are the worst. Just look at the cybernetics of it. Cybernetics is the study of control and communications of complex systems. The marketplace is strikingly different than the government in offering you a way to get what you want.

If you want to buy a particular item, you go out there and you pay your money and, by golly, you get the item. If you want to buy a red Chevrolet, you can buy a red Chevrolet. It doesn't make any difference that most of your neighbors don't want a red Chevrolet; you get a red Chevrolet even if you're the only one who wants a red Chevrolet. If you want a purple one and GM doesn't make one, by God, you can buy any color you want and paint it because purple paint is available, even though there's not many people who want purple paint, even just a few is enough. In fact, if there was nobody who wanted purple paint, you could buy some red paint and blue paint and mix it together and make purple paint and have your purple Chevrolet.

In this way every day, every person provides thousands and thousands of bits of information in the marketplace. Every time you buy something, the identity of what you bought, the nature of it, the brand, the price, what retail channel you bought it through, all of this is information that causes changes in the allocation of capital for producing and manufacturing and distributing various sorts of products.

And the companies that are best at paying attention to the signals that are coming to them from customers in the marketplace are the companies that grow and become extremely profitable. When a company stops being very good at reading those signs and becomes very sluggish and bureaucratic, the company stagnates or becomes smaller or even goes bankrupt (unless it gets government subsidies).

So each person is providing thousands of bits of information a day, millions of bits of information a year to the marketplace about what they want, how much they're willing to pay for it, what sort of trade-off between quality and price they're willing to have, what the details are, whether they like purple Chevrolets or not, and so on.

On the other hand, let's take a look at how much information you provide as a signal to the government. First off, you get to vote for a president/vice-president combination every four years. Since there are really only two parties in the game for all practical purposes, that means you provide one bit of information every four years or a quarter bit of information a year rather than millions of bits a year. Okay, you get to vote for a senator, too. Golly gee whiz, in fact you get to vote for two senators every six years. Again, it's a two-party system so what do you have? Every six years you get to provide two bits of information or a third of a bit a year. Gee, we now have a quarter of a bit and a third of a bit. We're actually over a half a bit a year.


Continuing with the cybernetic analysis, you get to vote for a representative every two years. Gee, that's half a bit a year. You've actually gotten up to slightly more than one bit per year of information you have to express your choice as to how the federal government is to be controlled. In fact, of course, since the two parties are very much like Tweedledee and Tweedledum, that one bit of information a year that you contribute really doesn't have much, if any, effect.

And, you know, the politics get worse and worse. Because the politicians are in office for relatively long terms without having to get voters' approval very often.

It's late, I'm done for the night. See ya Monday.

#221 Mangala

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Posted 19 November 2002 - 01:16 AM

Nobody responded to my smaller discussion idea, therefore it is my belief that no one answered not because they forgot about anserwing the question, but rather they did not want to answer the question. This tit for tat discussion theory is only proven by every single post Mr. O'Rights puts up.

Maybe I've just discussed this thing too much, had too many points come up again, or maybe I just can't handle the pressure of so many capitalist questions at once. I believe that my intense discussion of this topic had once turned my posts into somewhat personal attacks plagued with sarcasm and disgust. I do not want that to happen again, and I do not want this discussion to go off topic anymore.

Thus, it is now my opinion that this discussion should be ended upon because it has come to the point where any posts put up no longer have the implication to be ground-breaking or pure logic altering points. Anyone here may continue this conversation, however I warn you a Capitalist vs. Socialist discussion without a Socialist could get quite boring. I will soon write my final (hopefully final) post on the subject to tell next generation readers my notes about the entire discussion, perhaps to respond to certain moderates in the discussion (Lazarus) and perhaps to end some hostilities I have had with some (Sophianic). Hopefully this discussion will not get lost in history as most of the internet will.

Newer, smaller debates which might actually hold some substance will be my new goal. To foster individual debates on education, healthcare, government (Mr. O'Rights has beaten me to it), and of course economics in general (hopefully not too general).

Maybe I'm right about the whole too general theory I've submtted, but maybe, this is just too big of a project to embark upon while applying to college. ;)

#222 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 19 November 2002 - 04:50 AM

Nobody responded to my smaller discussion idea, therefore it is my belief that no one answered not because they forgot about anserwing the question, but rather they did not want to answer the question.  This tit for tat discussion theory is only proven by every single post Mr. O'Rights puts up.

Maybe I've just discussed this thing too much, had too many points come up again, or maybe I just can't handle the pressure of so many capitalist questions at once.  I believe that my intense discussion of this topic had once turned my posts into somewhat personal attacks plagued with sarcasm and disgust.  I do not want that to happen again, and I do not want this discussion to go off topic anymore.



For someone much younger than I, you seem to have a short memory. When I started to seperate topics into FDA ect. topics for example, you were annoyed that I was starting other threads. I had planned to keep apart; disunite School, health ect. into other discussions, related but distinguished. Now your annoyed that we are getting off topic. Your real hard to please, as such, I decided to let others vioce their opinions on this subject.

As far as discussing this too much, we have hardly scratched the surface of these issues. And as for pressure, I took nearly 3 weeks to get back into the topic, so take all the time you need to think and reflect upon your future answers. No one is looking at their watch, or their calander for that matter.

On your comment, "I believe that my intense discussion of this topic had once turned my posts into somewhat personal attacks plagued with sarcasm and disgust."


....Sometimes we reap what we sow.

Live Long and Well
William Constitution O'Rights







#223 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 19 November 2002 - 05:45 AM

Thus, it is now my opinion that this discussion should be ended upon because it has come to the point where any posts put up no longer have the implication to be ground-breaking or pure logic altering points.




It is my honest opinion that you are throwing in the towel because your socialist ideas are unravelling before your own eyes, and I'm still playing softball. There are new ground breaking issues put before you. My posts on holdings, are new points that should be addressed, or is it that you have no legitimate argument against this distributive justice argument. Or more to the point, perhaps no socialist can overcome this argument.




This tit for tat discussion theory is only proven by every single post Mr. O'Rights puts up.


Tit for tat??? I think issue, argument, issue , argument would be more accurate

Anyone here may continue this conversation, however I warn you a Capitalist vs. Socialist discussion without a Socialist could get quite boring.


Since I plan to continue this socialist capitalist debate, I issue a request to all members. Find me the brightest... no, make that find me as many of the brightest socialst as you can to continue this debate.


I will soon write my final (hopefully final) post on the subject to tell next generation readers my notes about the entire discussion,


Is that a white flag I see?

      Newer, smaller debates which might actually hold some substance will be my new goal. To foster
               individual debates on education, healthcare, government (Mr. O'Rights has beaten me to it), and
               of course economics in general (hopefully not too general).



All issues that are on my future plate. I'll be posting here for awhile. Perhaps you could start other topics, under those heading(education, healthcare, government economics). I'll be there;)


    Maybe I'm right about the whole too general theory I've submtted, but maybe, this is just too big
               of a project to embark upon while applying to college.





Hummm, let's see. I'm way older than you, I'm running a corporation, in the middle of fighting a court case (without lawyers), remodeling my house (without carpenters).


How ironic, your first post now seems almost prophetic...[/size]

    Since the beginning of time man has always felt the need...... to be able to get stuff done for him that he doesn't feel like doing.

                     Man is Lazy.



#224 Mind

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Posted 20 November 2002 - 12:51 AM

Human history has clearly demonstrated that governments have been the source of the most death, greatest environmental ruin, and widest scale oppression.

Knowing this...why would I want to let government control all business? As you propose Mangala. Why give the government more power to do evil? It might seem all good and fine when your favorite elected official is running the show, but when the opposite party comes into control (or a tyrant)...then we are all up a creek.

#225 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 20 November 2002 - 02:56 AM

The rules of equity and justice between man and man; is mine and thine.

No man has power over my rights and liberties, and I over no man’s; I may be but an individual, enjoy myself and my self-propriety, and not presume any further; if I do, I am an encroacher and an invader upon another man’s right, to which I have no right.

#226 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 20 November 2002 - 04:34 AM

  So what massive changes do I want? Listen:

                     5) Six weeks of taking some menial job for every worker in any field



He who lets the world, or his own portion of it, choose his plan of life for him, has no need of any other faculty than the ape-like one of imitation. He who chooses his plan for himself, employs all his faculties. He must use observation to see, reasoning and judgement to foresee, activity to gather materials for decision, discrimination to decide, and when he has decided, firmness and self-control to hold to his deliberate decision. And these qualities he requires and exercises exactly in proportion as the part of his conduct which he determines according to his own judgement and feelings is a large one.



#227 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 21 November 2002 - 03:29 AM

A “civil association,” comprises all the individuals and enterprises in the society. Organizations which may be businesses, churches, clubs, cooperatives, or something else, usually have a specific purpose and are organized to achieve it. But the whole society, has no purpose of its own. It is formed by the actions of purposive individuals and organizations. The “fatal conceit,” of the Socialist is to think that society should be organized like a single enterprise to achieve a single purpose.

#228 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 21 November 2002 - 04:15 AM

Mangala Quote
  Capitalism is Horrible.
    Capitalism is a wreck, an unorganized hoarding semi-system that seeks to make people prize money instead of human happiness.



Libertarianism is often closely identified with advocacy of free markets. That perception is entirely valid, but it may be overemphasized. The point of libertarianism is not so much to defend market relations per se, and certainly not capitalist forms of organization, as to defend individual freedom, civil society, and spontaneous order. The free market is the economic system that exists when individuals are allowed to acquire property and exchange it, subject only to the requirement that they not violate the rights of others. Markets are also the necessary form of order if human beings are to be able to cooperate to achieve complex purposes.

People often divide American organizations into three sectors: public, private, and nonprofit (or “independent”). Another division may be more fundamental: forced or free. There are essentially only two kinds of organizations, those that involve coercion and those that are entirely voluntary. The voluntary sector includes for-profit firms, clubs, churches and synagogues, and charitable organizations. All of these differ from government in one crucial way: They may not acquire resources or implement plans through coercion.

Analysis of markets is just the study of one form of voluntary order, that part in which people seek to achieve their own ends by cooperating and exchanging with others. Economists have played an important role in the development of libertarian thought because they have studied the spontaneous order of the market based on voluntary cooperation more carefully than other social scientists.


#229 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 21 November 2002 - 04:17 AM

   Capitalism is Horrible.



Modern libertarians have said that “capitalism is what happens when you let people alone.”


#230 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 21 November 2002 - 05:31 PM

             Think of the Stephen Hawkings pumping your gas!


Under our current system that would seem unlikely, under a free market system, also unlikely.
Under the Mangala Socialist system.....


    So what massive changes do I want? Listen:

             

                     5) Six weeks of taking some menial job for every worker in any field



....very possible


#231 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 21 November 2002 - 06:35 PM

The danger is not that a
particular class is unfit to
govern. Every class is unfit to
govern.

Lord Acton

#232 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 21 November 2002 - 11:23 PM

A final point on values. If a commercial comes on TV and says "We want you to buy our product because we want to make your life easier" you and I both know that the company paying for this
                     commercial is proboably lying.



If you tell lies about a product or service, you will be found out - either by the Government, which will prosecute you, or far worse, by the consumer, who will punish you by not buying your product or service a second time.



#233 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 21 November 2002 - 11:26 PM

A final point on values. If a commercial comes on TV and says "We want you to buy our product because we want to make your life easier" you and I both know that the company paying for this
                     commercial is proboably lying.



Remove advertising, disable a person or firm from proclaiming its wares and their merits, and the whole of society and of the economy is transformed. The enemies of advertising are the enemies of freedom.


#234 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 21 November 2002 - 11:29 PM

A final point on values. If a commercial comes on TV and says "We want you to buy our product because we want to make your life easier" you and I both know that the company paying for this
                     commercial is proboably lying.


Come to think of it, there is one catagory of advertising which is totally uncontrolled and flagrantly dishonest: the television commercials for most candidates in elections. Perhaps political advertising ought to be stopped. It's the only really dishonest kind of advertising that's left. It's totally dishonest.


#235 Limitless

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Posted 22 November 2002 - 05:04 AM

If you tell lies about a product or service, you will be found out - either by the Government, which will prosecute you, or far worse, by the consumer, who will punish you by not buying your product or service a second time.


Oh, come onnn Mr. O'Rights. Are we cutting corners, perhaps? Surely you can think of some examples of companies who HAVE NOT been prosecuted by the government, and continue to sell large amounts of their product/service to consumers? Perhaps I can help you out: the TOBACCO INDUSTRY.....no? This industry existed in a shroud of partial-secrecy for decades, against many odds. Sure, the industry has now been ridiculed & forced to pay large sums of money in litigation, but it remains a success, and continues to make billions a year, despite everything. It has actually been prosecuted in a few instances, but only minimal charges were actually laid, and minimal harm was done to the industry. The supposed "Many" government regulations that restrict tobacco-use in some countries have also made little more than a small-dent in their armour. The many years the industry survived by hiding the truth, has given the time/means to overcome all odds, so far. Not forever, probably, but for now, anyways.

Remember, Mr. O'Rights, this industry has zero respect now, has been vilified, prosecuted, even persecuted, yet remains viable. Why? THE GOVERNMENT, WHICH YOU ARGUE IS TOO LARGE ALREADY, HAS ALLOWED THE INDUSTRY TO CONTINUE MANIPULATING TOBACCO BEYOND BELIEF, RENDERING IT TOO ADDICTIVE FOR THE AVERAGE CITIZEN TO QUIT SUCCESSFULLY, WITH ANY CONSISTENCY.........Perhaps your call for smaller government is too general, and is largely-influenced by your unfortunate bad personal-experiences. In some cases, government control, while restricting some freedoms, does the best job of bringing about the desired results.

You've forgotten examples like the one I've presented, which show how corrupt the government can be: in this case, although the tobacco industry isn't liked by almost anyone, it continues to be allowed to operate, for one main reason-and it isn't freedom (if allowing addiction is even allowing "Freedom" at all.) it's TAXES. MONEY, MONEY, MONEY. THAT'S WHY THE INDUSTRY EXISTS. In this case, the government has used the negative feelings towards the industry to justify allowing the sale of a product, for the purpose of short-term financial gain, at the expense of long-term lost-productivity & financial-loss.

#236 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 22 November 2002 - 04:04 PM

Oh, come onnn Mr. O'Rights. Are we cutting corners, perhaps?


If you recall my comment a few posts ago, I'm just warming up.


Perhaps your call for smaller government is too general, and is largely-influenced by your unfortunate bad personal-experiences. In some cases, government control, while restricting some freedoms, does the best job of bringing about the desired results.



This I plan to address in detail, although I never gave much thought to the Tobacco industry. I'll take that issue up after I take up school, health ect. As always, if you think I forgot, throw me a reminder.


#237 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 23 November 2002 - 03:04 AM

Society is the aggregate of all the services that men perform for one another by compulsion or voluntarily, that is to say, public services and private services.

The first, imposed and regulated by the law, which is not always easy to change when necessary, can long outlive their usefulness and still retain the name of public services, even when they are no longer anything but public nuisances. The second are in the domain of the voluntary, i.e., of individual responsibility. Each gives and receives what he wishes, or what he can, after bargaining. These services are always presumed to have a real utility, exactly measured by their comparative value.

That is why the former are so often static, while the latter obey the law of progress.

While the exaggerated development of public services, with the waste of energies that it entails, tends to create a disastrous parasitism in society, it is rather strange that many modern schools of economic thought, attributing this characteristic to voluntary, private services, seek to transform the functions performed by the various occupations.

These schools of thought are vehement in their attack on those they call middlemen. They would willingly eliminate the capitalist, the banker, the speculator, the entrepreneur, the businessman, and the merchant, accusing them of interposing themselves between producer and consumer in order to fleece them both, without giving them anything of value. Or rather, the reformers would like to transfer to the state the work of the middlemen, for this work cannot be eliminated.

The sophism of the socialists on this point consists in showing the public what it pays to the middlemen for their services and in concealing what would have to be paid to the state. Once again we have the conflict between what strikes the eye and what is evidenced only to the mind, between what is seen and what is not seen.

“Why,” they said, “leave to merchants the task of getting foodstuffs from the United States and the elseware? Why cannot the state, the departments, and the municipalities organize a provisioning service and set up warehouses for stockpiling? They would sell at net cost, and the people, the poor people, would be relieved of the tribute that they pay to free, i.e., selfish, individualistic, anarchical trade.”

The tribute that the people pay to business, is what is seen. The tribute that the people would have to pay to the state or to its agents in the socialist system, is what is not seen.

What is this so-called tribute that people pay to business? It is this: that two men render each other a service in full freedom under the pressure of competition and at a price agreed on after bargaining.

When the stomach that is hungry is in France and the wheat that can satisfy it is in America, the suffering will not cease until the wheat reaches the stomach. There are three ways to accomplish this: the hungry men can go themselves to find the wheat; they can put their trust in those who engage in this kind of business; or they can levy an assessment on themselves and charge public officials with the task.

Of these three methods, which is the most advantageous?

In all times, in all countries, the freer, the more enlightened, the more experienced men have been, the oftener have they voluntarily chosen the second. I confess that this is enough in my eyes to give the advantage to it. My mind refuses to admit that mankind at large deceives itself on a point that touches it so closely.

However, let us examine the question.

For millions of citizens to depart for France to get the wheat that they need is obviously impracticable. The first means is of no avail. The consumers cannot act by themselves; they are compelled to turn to middlemen, whether public officials or merchants.
However, let us observe that the first means would be the most natural. Fundamentally, it is the responsibility of whoever is hungry to get his own wheat. It is a task that concerns him; it is a service that he owes to himself. If someone else, whoever he may be, performs this service for him and takes the task on himself, this other person has a right to compensation. What I am saying here is that the services of middlemen involve a right to remuneration.

However that may be, since we must turn to what the socialists call a parasite, which of the two, the merchant or the public official, is the less demanding parasite?

Business (I assume it to be free, or else what point would there be in my argument?) is forced, by its own self-interest, to study the seasons, to ascertain day by day the condition of the crops, to receive reports from all parts of the world, to foresee needs, to take precautions. It has ships all ready, associates everywhere, and its immediate self-interest is to buy at the lowest possible price, to economize on all details of operation, and to attain the greatest results with the least effort. Not only French merchants, but merchants the whole world over are busy with provisioning France for the day of need; and if self-interest compels them to fulfill their task at the least expense, competition among them no less compels them to let the consumers profit from all the economies realized. Once the wheat has arrived, the businessman has an interest in selling it as soon as possible to cover his risks, realize his profits, and begin all over again, if there is an opportunity. Guided by the comparison of prices, private enterprise distributes food all over the world, always beginning at the point of greatest scarcity, that is, where the need is felt the most. It is thus impossible to imagine an organization better calculated to serve the interests of the hungry, and the beauty of this organization, not perceived by the socialists, comes precisely from the fact that it is free, i.e., voluntary. True, the consumer must pay the businessman for his expenses of cartage, of transshipment, of storage, of commissions, etc.; but under what system does the one who consumes the wheat avoid paying the expenses of shipping it to him? There is, besides, the necessity of paying also for service rendered; but, so far as the share of the middleman is concerned, it is reduced to a minimum by competition.

If, according to the socialist plan, the state takes the place of private businessmen in these transactions, what will happen? Pray, show me where there will be any economy for the public. Will it be in the retail price? But imagine the representatives of forty thousand municipalities arriving on a given day, the day when the wheat is needed; imagine the effect on the price. Will the economy be effected in the shipping expenses? But will fewer ships, fewer sailors, fewer trans-shipments, fewer warehouses be needed, or are we to be relieved of the necessity for paying for all these things? Will the saving be effected in the profits of the businessmen? But did your representatives and public officials go for nothing? Are they going to make the journey out of brotherly love? Will they not have to live? Will not their time have to be paid for? And do you think that this will not exceed a thousand times the two or three per cent that the merchant earns, a rate that he is prepared to guarantee?
And then, think of the difficulty of levying so many taxes to distribute so much food. Think of the injustices and abuses inseparable from such an enterprise. Think of the burden of responsibility that the government would have to bear.

The socialists who have invented these follies, and who in days of distress plant them in the minds of the masses, generously confer on themselves the title of “forward-looking” men, and there is a real danger that usage, that tyrant of language, will ratify both the word and the judgment it implies. “Forward-looking” assumes that these gentlemen can see ahead much further than ordinary people; that their only fault is to be too much in advance of their century; and that, if the time has not yet arrived when certain private services, allegedly parasitical, can be eliminated, the fault is with the public, which is far behind socialism. To my mind and knowledge, it is the contrary that is true, and I do not know to what barbaric century we should have to return to find on this point a level of understanding comparable to that of the socialists.

The modern socialist factions ceaselessly oppose free association in present-day society. They do not realize that a free society is a true association much superior to any of those that they concoct out of their fertile imaginations.

#238 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 23 November 2002 - 03:05 AM

Government attempts to intervene in the market process to bring about desired results always create distortions that lead to demands for further intervention.

#239 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 23 November 2002 - 03:08 AM

People are wont to consider socialism impracticable because they think that men lack the moral qualities demanded by a socialist society. It is feared that under socialism most men will not exhibit the same zeal in the performance of the duties and tasks assigned to them that they bring to their daily work in a social order based on private ownership of the means of production. In a capitalist society, every individual knows that the fruit of his labor is his own to enjoy, that his income increases or decreases according as the output of his labor is greater or smaller. In a socialist society, every individual will think that less depends on the efficiency of his own labor, since a fixed portion of the total output is due him in any case and the amount of the latter cannot be appreciably diminished by the loss resulting from the laziness of any one man. If, as is to be feared, such a conviction should become general, the productivity of labor in a socialist community would drop considerably.

The objection raised against socialism is completely sound, but it does not get to the heart of the matter. Were it possible in a socialist community to ascertain the output of the labor of every individual comrade with the same precision with which this is accomplished for each worker by means of economic calculation in the capitalist system, the practicability of socialism would not be dependent on the good will of every individual. Society would be in a position, at least within certain limits, to determine the share of the total output to be allotted to each worker on the basis of the extent of his contribution to production. What renders socialism impracticable is precisely the fact that calculation of this kind is impossible in a socialist society.

In the capitalist system, the calculation of profitability constitutes a guide that indicates to the individual whether the enterprise he is operating ought, under the given circumstances, to be in operation at all and whether it is being run in the most efficient possible way, i.e., at the least cost in factors of production. If an undertaking proves unprofitable, this means that the raw materials, half-finished goods, and labor that are needed in it are employed by other enterprises for an end that, from the standpoint of the consumers, is more urgent and more important, or for the same end, but in a more economical manner (i.e., with a smaller expenditure of capital and labor). When, for instance, hand weaving came to be unprofitable, this signified that the capital and labor employed in weaving by machine yield a greater output and that it is consequently uneconomical to adhere to a method of production in which the same input of capital and labor yields a smaller output.

If a new enterprise is being planned, one can calculate in advance whether it can be made profitable at all and in what way. If, for example, one has the intention of constructing a railroad line, one can, by estimating the traffic to be expected and its ability to pay the freight rates, calculate whether it pays to invest capital and labor in such an undertaking. If the result of this calculation shows that the projected railroad promises no profit, this is tantamount to saying that there is other, more urgent employment for the capital and the labor that the construction of the railroad would require; the world is not yet rich enough to be able to afford such an expenditure. But it is not only when the question arises whether or not a given undertaking is to be begun at all that the calculation of value and profitability is decisive; it controls every single step that the entrepre-neur takes in the conduct of his business.

Capitalist economic calculation, which alone makes rational production possible, is based on monetary calculation. Only because the prices of all goods and services in the market can be expressed in terms of money is it possible for them, in spite of their heterogeneity, to enter into a calculation involving homogeneous units of measurement. In a socialist society, where all the means of production are owned by the community, and where, consequently, there is no market and no exchange of productive goods and services, there can also be no money prices for goods and services of higher order. Such a social system would thus, of necessity, be lacking in the means for the rational management of business enterprises, viz., economic calculation. For economic calculation cannot take place in the absence of a common denominator to which all the heterogeneous goods and services can be reduced.

#240 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 23 November 2002 - 03:22 AM

                    Aha! Exactly! The actual goal is to increase profit margins not to increase the quality of the product to serve the consumer! This is the fundamental reason why capitalist companies are bad in many ways. They are not started to give a person a certain service,
                     they are started usually make some dough.

                     Now let’s think about this in terms of values.

                     Socialist company Value order

                     1. Make a product that serves the customer
                     2. Increase profits to maintain the company and to increase the quality of the product
                     3. Beat the competition if necessary

                     Capitalist company Value order

                     1. Increase profits to serve the management
                     2. Make a product that customers would buy in order to increase profits.
                     3. Beat the competition

                     The goal of a capitalist company is to make a product that would be bought, not that would be beneficial to society.




So much for the climate of opinion in which capitalism now operates. What, however, are the main objections to competition and the profit motive actually put forward by Socialist?

Capitalist company Value order
1. to obtain information about people’s preferences;
2. to allocate men, machines, land, building and other resources in accordance with these preferences;
3. to decide which production techniques to use;
4. to create incentives to avoid unnecessarily costly methods, to invest, to develop new technologies and products; and
5. (and perhaps most important) to coordinate the desires of millions of individuals, firms and households.







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